Gun Store Kick-Out


PDA






Killermonkey21
July 9, 2009, 11:16 PM
I posted this on another forum, in a more local section, but I thought you guys would get a kick out of this. I'm an active duty soldier in the US Army and like to think of myself as a gun nut, as well as a pretty well read guy on the laws pertaining to age and carrying of weapons, considering I'm still under that magic number of 21 years of age. Enjoy.

Post Copied from Opencarry.org


I am currently on my honeymoon in Reno and decided to do a little browsing while I was here and my wife was occupied. I am 20 years of age, and active duty Army. I had to jump through many hoops in North Carolina to buy a handgun (private sale) under 21, so I know all the applicable Federal Laws and NC laws in regards to this situation.

Let me say this, loud and clear: I had no intention of buying a firearm, nor did I have a firearm in my possession. Zero. None. Nada. This is a complaint purely from a customers point of view.

I found Gun Trader online and entered the store at approximately 1300 hours on July 9th, 2009.

They greeted me, and after finding out I was military (I say sir a lot, apparently) we got into a discussion and I browsed their firearms, and took a look at the 14 round SW MP .45 full size magazines.

I then got in the discussion of how I acquired my S&W M&P .45 ACP fullsize. I mention that I bought it from a person at a gun-show in North Carolina, and that I had to get a pistol purchase permit and jump through some hoops with the Cumberland County Attorney's Office to get that because I was under 21.

That perked their ears. One of the men rolls his eyes and says:
Him: "You know you just admitted to a felony."
Me: "Excuse me?"
Him: "You can't buy a gun when you're under 21, period."
Me: "Yeah, from a FFL. It was a private sale though."
Him: "It doesnt matter. You just admitted to a felony."
Me: "Sir, I hate to tell you you're wrong, but federal law says 18 to possess, 21 to buy from a dealer."
Him: "I do this for a living. And you come in here admitting to a felony, you can just beat feet out of here if you think you know so much. I do this for a damn living."

I could be wrong with a few of the quotes, but that was the general gist of the conversation.

I left the store with no further argument wondering if ignorance really was bliss.

I was not trying to argue Nevada law (because I don't know it) but Federal law. I guess they didn't lose a customer, but they sure as hell didn't show much customer service.

-John

If you enjoyed reading about "Gun Store Kick-Out" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
shiftyer1
July 9, 2009, 11:25 PM
What are the laws of handgun purchase (dealer or private). And are there any exceptions for active military? For someone under 21.

almostfree
July 9, 2009, 11:31 PM
Federally they are just as says. 21 to buy from a dealer, but 18 is ok for an in state deal. State laws may vary.

Mags
July 9, 2009, 11:33 PM
No exception for Military.

sig228
July 9, 2009, 11:34 PM
He might "do that for a living" but it certainly doesn't mean that he's very knowledgeable about it or very good at what he does. Sounds ignorant to me.

SuperNaut
July 9, 2009, 11:37 PM
A know-it-all behind the counter at a gun store? Say it ain't so!

Killermonkey21
July 9, 2009, 11:39 PM
My point was that fed law says 21 to buy from a dealer, but 18 to possess, as in my dad could give me one, or in states that don't restrict it, from a private sale, as long as its not a FFL holder.

shiftyer1
July 9, 2009, 11:50 PM
I was curious because I work in a pawnshop and had a 19 year old active army customer who told me he was going to get his ccl and was buying a gandgun. I told him that I wasn't aware of any exceptions so I couldn't sell him one. It wasn't an i'm right and your wrong type a thing, more like I may be ignorant and don't want to chance it.

shaggy430
July 9, 2009, 11:56 PM
If you weren't looking to buy, why bring it up in the first place? That being said, sounds like the gun store guy was being a jerk just to be a jerk.

Dan Forrester
July 9, 2009, 11:58 PM
This reminds me of the time I found a .22 rifle which had been obviously chopped down into a pistol. I told the guy at the table that It was illegal to cut down a rifle into a pistol and he should get it off his table before someone from the ATF walks by.

He insisted that as long as the there was no but stock on the gun the barrel could be of any length. I tried to tell him he was just moments away from serious trouble and to get rid of the thing but he didnít listen so I got out of there.

Dan

Killermonkey21
July 9, 2009, 11:59 PM
shaggy: I was merely making conversation with the man and it came up. Or are you referring to me making this post?

Animal Mother
July 10, 2009, 12:02 AM
Some FFL's believe that if its not how they do business it is illegal. You should see the look I usually get from them when I tell them I have a Curio and Relics license that I'd rather just buy a C&R gun from them and give them a copy of my 03 FFL instead of filling out a Form 4473, they usually act like I just asked them to convert a Mac-10 to full auto.

--

Also, some dealers, just like some people are just jerks.

There are plenty of dealers who would also like to see private party sales banned - it means more money for them.

Once I walked into a shop and very respectfully asked if a dealer he performed FFL transfers and he told me that "Sure, you can have a gun shipped here and I can transfer it for you, but I'll make it so expensive that you'll never do it again." Obviously from that point forward he would never see a dime of my business.

You just run into it sometimes.

Dihappy
July 10, 2009, 12:07 AM
Its too bad that a fellow "gun enthusiast" had too much PRIDE that he couldnt admit to being wrong or wasnt open minded enough to learn something new.

Id mail him the law then tell all my friends never to shop there.

Eightball
July 10, 2009, 12:13 AM
I've run into situations similar to yours on the other side of the counter, except that in KY there's no "pistol permit" or anything necessary. Usually, after hearing about such information from a customer/potential customer, my next question or comment is "Good stuff. How's it shoot?"

It behooves the guys behind the counter to know the law just as much as purchasers, to avoid looking stupid.

It probably also helps that I acquired my first handgun at 19, so I'm well aware of the legal situation there :D

And while I certainly cannot speak for all gun-counter-monkeys.....if a customer is not obviously off their rocker and comes in with pertinent or intriguing information, rather than raving that their uncle got a deer at 800 yards with an iron-sighted .270 Mauser Lever-Action, I'm always game to learn something new. You just gotta find the right counter guy to talk to sometimes.

KenWP
July 10, 2009, 12:16 AM
Big gun shop back home has this fat guy who's parents wern't married at the gun counter and I have yet to buy anything from him when he's there and waits on me. If you ask for a certain kind of ammo,powder or bullet he has something to say about it and by the time he's finished I decide not to buy anything and walk out. He has to be married to the boss or something. I mentioned him to another guy once and turns out he had the same opinion.

WinchesterAA
July 10, 2009, 12:21 AM
I hate to sound hypocritical, but in America these days it's probably best to keep most stuff private, IE, you don't talk about it with anyone else. Not even when you're drunk.


At this moment, he probably feels as right as you do. if you'd never said anything at all, you'd probably have no reason to have made this post, though.

It sucks either way you go. You're either cheating yourself out of an opportunity, or burning a bridge.
atleast until the military lets you stop shaving your face that is.

Mum's the word, my friend. You can't trust the average citizen, (Gun store owner, and cops alike) to handle what you're trying to tell them. Often times saying one or two little bitty insignificant words will totally unravel a person's composure.

dacavasi
July 10, 2009, 12:26 AM
I've always wondered how those laws were justified in the first place. At the age of 19, I got my first CCW permit, back in the day when you had to jump through some serious hoops to prove you needed one (mid 70's). Funny thing was, I couldn't legally purchase a NEW firearm until I was 21, but I could buy a USED firearm any time I wanted! I couldn't see the rationale then, and I still can't see it now. P.S., I still have my very sweet nickel-plated model 19, my first handgun purchase (USED of course....)

Geno
July 10, 2009, 12:34 AM
KM21:

Thank-you for your service, Sir! I appreciate your efforts in making the post. You handled the matter as well as anyone could have, and did not dishonor yourself in the mix. Kudos!

Geno

loneviking
July 10, 2009, 12:43 AM
Don't let the guys at Gun Traders bother you as they are first class dicks. How they stay in business with all of the people they have pissed off in this area is beyond me. There's Scheels, Cabelas and Sportsmans Warehouse, all of which offer better service and selection than the tiny independent shops. If you get over Carson City way, look up the Armory in Mound House. Good folks, lots of interesting stuff. Have fun in Reno! BTW, you can open carry a legally possessed pistol if you are 18 in Nevada. It's concealed carry that requires you to be 21 to obtain the permit.

PumpAction
July 10, 2009, 01:33 AM
You're right, he's right.. if you'd never said anything at all, you'd probably have no reason to have made this post.

I'd say it's better to dispel the right information about what's legal than to not say anything at all. I haven't heard anyone say that an in-state private sale to someone between 18 and 21 is illegal. That information might be useful to someone in that age bracket interested in owning a handgun.

Marve
July 10, 2009, 03:11 AM
I hate to sound hypocritical, but in America these days it's probably best to keep most stuff private, IE, you don't talk about it with anyone else. Not even when you're drunk.


At this moment, he probably feels as right as you do. if you'd never said anything at all, you'd probably have no reason to have made this post, though.

It sucks either way you go. You're either cheating yourself out of an opportunity, or burning a bridge.
atleast until the military lets you stop shaving your face that is.

Mum's the word, my friend. You can't trust the average citizen, (Gun store owner, and cops alike) to handle what you're trying to tell them. Often times saying one or two little bitty insignificant words will totally unravel a person's composure.I take no pleasure in seconding your comment. Most people now are decent or reserved, and maybe ignorant, but there's 10% who snap at you like a rattlesnake with rabies if you just try to talk to them, and if there's even a HINT that they're wrong. So many people are itching for a fight. People seemed much kinder, calmer, and more intelligent when I was a kid in the 70s. People weren't afraid to impart helpful advice. People are afraid to talk to each other now. They're afraid to give each other helpful information. Everyone is so easily offended. NOW, you run the risk of getting your head bit off, not if you "say the wrong thing," but if you speak to the wrong PERSON. Most people won't reason anymore. They have two modes: attack and ignore. I think we've all been banned from forums for merely privately questioning the wrong moderator and trying to reason with them. Your account is fine, then you send a PM to a moderator where you merely disagree with them and lay out your point of view, then you return later to find your account banned and various insults thrown at you telling you you're not worth talking to. People won't reason anymore. They get furious and think that spending the effort to listen and reason is equivalent to mowing your lawn for you for a year. They think the mere possibility of being wrong is the worst thing on earth, and must be prevented at all costs. They think that listening LEADS to the possibility of being wrong, and therefore won't listen.

Roc_Kor
July 10, 2009, 03:18 AM
I know your frustration, man.

I used to get looks at gun shows and stores when I was a little younger (I'm 20 now, so pretty much the last 5 years) from the guys behind the counter "You're too young to handle that" and "Where are your parents?" My father was always close by but it's annoying when you're the one in the market for a firearm and people automatically dismiss you because of your age.

Heck, amongst my gun buddies, I'm the youngest but I seem to (sadly) know the most.

Grey_Mana
July 10, 2009, 06:19 AM
With ~20% national unemployment*, you'd think stores could hire knowledgeable, polite staff.


*The 8% official figure is 'newly unemployed'. People who lose their jobs and don't find work eventually get dropped from the official number, but any discussion of unemployment should include the # of US citizens wanting work.

sernv99
July 10, 2009, 06:21 AM
should had kept your mouth closed about your previous purchase of a handgun. Who cares if you had to jump through hoops to get it?

SCKimberFan
July 10, 2009, 07:21 AM
but I'll make it so expensive that you'll never do it again

Slightly off topic, but this is why we have so many "I'll never buy from a local gun store" threads.

Nate1778
July 10, 2009, 09:07 AM
A know-it-all behind the counter at a gun store? Say it ain't so!



Ohhh that's funny right there........:D

Man I hope that doesn't happen to Internet forums one day.........

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 10, 2009, 09:08 AM
Some people are just arrogant jackarses. Whaddryagonnado?

General Geoff
July 10, 2009, 09:10 AM
Being a professional does not necessarily mean you're competent.

doc540
July 10, 2009, 10:14 AM
"A know-it-all behind the counter at a gun store? Say it ain't so!"

this

NavyLCDR
July 10, 2009, 10:38 AM
I was at a store a couple days ago. A guy was in there asking about shipping a rifle to himself in another state. The guy behind the counter told him it had to go FFL to FFL because it was going out of state.

The guy was wanting to ship to HIMSELF!

Then it turned out the guy was wanting to ship to himself out of country, so at that point I didn't bother to correct the guy behind the counter, especially since my purchase was in the middle of being made.

Corporal K
July 10, 2009, 10:55 AM
The guy behind the counter told him it had to go FFL to FFL because it was going out of state.

The guy was wanting to ship to HIMSELF!

That's accurate. I had to do the same to ship a 1911 from Louisiana to myself in Colorado.

Deltaboy
July 10, 2009, 11:06 AM
Numnuts are a dime a dozen just walk out and buy some where else. Free advice: as already stated keep your business to yourself and don't share it in a strange gun shop or any where else.

NavyLCDR
July 10, 2009, 11:23 AM
The guy behind the counter told him it had to go FFL to FFL because it was going out of state.

The guy was wanting to ship to HIMSELF!

That's accurate. I had to do the same to ship a 1911 from Louisiana to myself in Colorado.

Geez, I hate posting ATF's FAQs but it's the easiest thing to do in this case.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b9

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship firearms interstate for his or her use in hunting or other lawful activity? [Back]


Yes. A person may ship a firearm to himself or herself in care of another person in the State where he or she intends to hunt or engage in any other lawful activity. The package should be addressed to the owner. Persons other than the owner should not open the package and take possession of the firearm.


Any Comments? You had to ship the 1911 to yourself in another state utilizing FFLs because of the ignorance of the people you were dealing with, not because of requirements of law.

Nickotym
July 10, 2009, 11:26 AM
The guy behind the counter told him it had to go FFL to FFL because it was going out of state.

The guy was wanting to ship to HIMSELF!

That's accurate. I had to do the same to ship a 1911 from Louisiana to myself in Colorado.


No, shipping to oneself in another state, such as going on a hunting trip, etc, doesn't have to go FFL to FFL. I don't have the sites to back this up, I am sure others can do so, I think there is even a post in the library here on THR about shipping guns.


OOPs, I guess Navy LT was faster on the draw than I was.

NavyLCDR
July 10, 2009, 11:29 AM
:D:neener::cool::rolleyes:

CoRoMo
July 10, 2009, 11:30 AM
You'd be surprised at the lack of knowledge that many dealers have. On more than one occasion, I've had to urge dealers conduct a transfer within the legal lines, when they preferred that I simply break the law because, "Nobody will know".

WinchesterAA
July 10, 2009, 03:22 PM
@PumpAction
I'd say it's better to dispel the right information about what's legal than to not say anything at all. I haven't heard anyone say that an in-state private sale to someone between 18 and 21 is illegal. That information might be useful to someone in that age bracket interested in owning a handgun.

Yes sir, most definitely. In the real world, you might complicate things for yourself, as in the OP's situation, if you seek/distribute this information in person.

Your alternative is to come here, read this story, and have no bad feelings about it.

It sucks doing it this way, but it beats being constantly reminded how detached from the "average person" I've become.

Sometimes I think, maybe the worst thing I could have done was try to answer my own questions that no one else could, but should have been able to IMO. Then I could run around blissfully retarded like everyone else, and not care that the job I'm at sucks, because to me, it would be like rocket science to operate the touchscreen displays at a pizza parlor or mcdonalds. Granted, rocket science isn't that spectacular, but I wouldn't know that! Rocket science would be the top of the line science IMO, if I was average.

and maybe I'd be happy with watching TV, too. Maybe I'd even find propaganda pieces inspirational and motivating.

But no, that didn't happen.

hso
July 10, 2009, 03:36 PM
Killermonkey21,

Sounds like you had all the correct information and the store clerk didn't.

If you want to help him correct his incorrect information you may send copies of both the federal and state law to the store with a "customer service" note.

That's about the only way that errors like this get corrected.

Proinsias
July 10, 2009, 03:45 PM
Don't let the guys at Gun Traders bother you as they are first class dicks. How they stay in business with all of the people they have pissed off in this area is beyond me. There's Scheels, Cabelas and Sportsmans Warehouse, all of which offer better service and selection than the tiny independent shops. If you get over Carson City way, look up the Armory in Mound House. Good folks, lots of interesting stuff. Have fun in Reno! BTW, you can open carry a legally possessed pistol if you are 18 in Nevada. It's concealed carry that requires you to be 21 to obtain the permit.
Yes! Check out their reviews on Yelp or somewhere else. I have only been in once, and didn't buy anything. Something about them made me uncomfortable, can't say what. I feel bad buying from Cabela's all the time instead of a local store, but it's just an easier experience. I don't like Sportsman's all that much, because it's such a zoo, and you have to ask to see every handgun, as they keep them about 10 feet away and the price tags are impossible to read with my eyes.

ArfinGreebly
July 10, 2009, 05:13 PM
If you get over to Carson City, also check out The Gun Exchange on North Carson Street.

Say "hi" to Chet and Mike.

Couple of curmudgeons, but good folks, decent prices. Mike is also a CCW instructor.



BTW, while I was living in Carson City, I wanted to gift a pistol to my son who was, at that time, turning 20. After researching the laws regarding ownership, I went ahead with the purchase, and he found it under the tree on Xmas Day.

Of course, I also had to take the time to brief him on proper transport to and from the range, safety, and all that jazz.

Your understanding is correct: legal to possess at 18, buy from FFL at 21, and CCW (in Nevada) at 21.

As usual, you have to pay attention to the local laws as well as the Federal stuff.

lobo9er
July 10, 2009, 05:20 PM
i cant say that did or didn't happen but i can see it though its not usually the store owner its one of his friends that "work" there i mean hang out there that can sometimes be the pain in the neck

lobo9er
July 10, 2009, 05:26 PM
an in edition i was a lil older than 21 when i got started going to gun shows and shops sporting a mohawk and a bull ring i got grief here and there, and here and there gun dealers missed out on my green

Savage Shooter
July 10, 2009, 05:35 PM
I do this for a damn living
So does the guy behind the counter a wal-mart.:what::D
I don't know how you got out of there without decking the jerk!
iggnorance is bliss right there is where I would have responded "ya and and you can't fix stupid":eek::cool:

ezypikns
July 10, 2009, 05:40 PM
by anyone less than 21 years old, but in Texas, someone serving in the military (active, guard, or reserve), or a veteran under 21 can get a CHL (CCW) legally.

Eyesac
July 10, 2009, 06:04 PM
HAHA! That lousy store has a bad reputation on a national level now! There are endless (local 4x4 forum threads) horror stories from this place, even a story about a loaded gun on the used gun rack...:what:

poppy
July 10, 2009, 07:26 PM
There is a general ignorance on this subject. Most folks here in Ohio think that someone under 21 can't buy a handgun.

For example, at a gun show recently, a young guy was toting a rifle for sale. I asked him if he might be interested in a trade for one of my pistols.

Oh no, he said, I'm not 21 yet so I can't buy a handgun. I tried to explain that he indeed could in a private sale, but to no avail.

He probably thought I was just another bearded old fart who wanted to make some money at the expense of his young self.:banghead:

jhco
July 10, 2009, 07:50 PM
You may be right about the laws in your state but it might be different in nevada.

NavyLCDR
July 10, 2009, 08:07 PM
In Ohio it IS ILLEGAL to furnish a person <21 years of age with a handgun!

2923.21 Improperly furnishing firearms to minor.

(A) No person shall do any of the following:

(1) Sell any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age;

(2) Subject to division (B) of this section, sell any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age;

(3) Furnish any firearm to a person who is under eighteen years of age or, subject to division (B) of this section, furnish any handgun to a person who is under twenty-one years of age, except for lawful hunting, sporting, or educational purposes, including, but not limited to, instruction in firearms or handgun safety, care, handling, or marksmanship under the supervision or control of a responsible adult;

(4) Sell or furnish a firearm to a person who is eighteen years of age or older if the seller or furnisher knows, or has reason to know, that the person is purchasing or receiving the firearm for the purpose of selling the firearm in violation of division (A)(1) of this section to a person who is under eighteen years of age or for the purpose of furnishing the firearm in violation of division (A)(3) of this section to a person who is under eighteen years of age;

(5) Sell or furnish a handgun to a person who is twenty-one years of age or older if the seller or furnisher knows, or has reason to know, that the person is purchasing or receiving the handgun for the purpose of selling the handgun in violation of division (A)(2) of this section to a person who is under twenty-one years of age or for the purpose of furnishing the handgun in violation of division (A)(3) of this section to a person who is under twenty-one years of age;

(6) Purchase or attempt to purchase any firearm with the intent to sell the firearm in violation of division (A)(1) of this section to a person who is under eighteen years of age or with the intent to furnish the firearm in violation of division (A)(3) of this section to a person who is under eighteen years of age;

(7) Purchase or attempt to purchase any handgun with the intent to sell the handgun in violation of division (A)(2) of this section to a person who is under twenty-one years of age or with the intent to furnish the handgun in violation of division (A)(3) of this section to a person who is under twenty-one years of age.

(B) Divisions (A)(1) and (2) of this section do not apply to the sale or furnishing of a handgun to a person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age if the person eighteen years of age or older and under twenty-one years of age is a law enforcement officer who is properly appointed or employed as a law enforcement officer and has received firearms training approved by the Ohio peace officer training council or equivalent firearms training.

(C) Whoever violates this section is guilty of improperly furnishing firearms to a minor, a felony of the fifth degree.

http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923

Good thing he didn't take your gun, poppy, you would have committed a FELONY! Those folks aren't nearly as ignorant of the law as you claim they are. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

earlthegoat2
July 10, 2009, 08:34 PM
Same way in MI, that seller better read up lest he lose more business.

2nd 41
July 10, 2009, 09:57 PM
KM21:

Thank-you for your service, Sir! I appreciate your efforts in making the post. You handled the matter as well as anyone could have, and did not dishonor yourself in the mix. Kudos!

+1.... You acted very appropriately

zoom6zoom
July 11, 2009, 09:46 AM
I don't like the "purchase permit" system in NC, but in this case it pretty much proves it was a legal purchase for you and not "a felony", doesn't it. You wouldn't have been given a purchase permit if it was unlawful for you to buy.

Acera
July 11, 2009, 10:46 AM
I wonder if anyone has contacted the gun store for their comment on this thread?

Not that the OP's side of the story is not enough for me, just wondering if they would want to come on and clarify their stance.

It is kinda ignorant thinking by the counter help to think he knows all the gun laws in all the states and all the jurisdictions.

Beats the heck out of getting a poor reputation on here.

chuckusaret
July 11, 2009, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by SuperNaut
A know-it-all behind the counter at a gun store? Say it ain't so!


Darn, I guess all gun shop salesman are the same nation wide based on comments I have read on THR. It appears, by the comments, a person must be a pompous wind bag, with a know it all attitude, that looks down on customers as the ignorant scum of the earth as requisites to work as a salesperson in a gun shop. In my area they all fit the above criteria with being fat, with a back woods country drawl and say "Dawg gone" and "Dad Gum" a lot.

If you enjoyed reading about "Gun Store Kick-Out" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!