Florida Woman Shot in Leg by Bathroom Stall Neighbor


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peyton
July 10, 2009, 11:25 AM
Gosh, it is not even safe to take a bathroom break. Article does not state what type of pistol was involved. On a serious note, I suspect the pistol went off when she attempted to catch it before it hit the floor.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,531376,00.html?test=latestnews

TAMPA, Fla. Authorities say a bullet from a gun that was accidentally dropped injured a Tampa woman sitting in a bathroom stall.

Police say the bullet hit 53-year-old Janifer Bliss in the lower left leg. She was taken to a hospital with minor injuries.

Bliss was sitting on the toilet in a hotel bathroom when a woman in the next stall accidentally let her handgun slip out of her waist holster. The weapon discharged when it hit the ground.

Police say the gun belonged to 56-year-old Debra Monce who has a concealed weapons permit.

The case has been referred to the State Attorney's Office to determine if any charges will be filed.

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JoeMal
July 10, 2009, 11:38 AM
Good Lord...think of all the TERRIBLE scenarios that could have come from this...

The lady go lucky IMO

middy
July 10, 2009, 12:04 PM
On a serious note, I suspect the pistol went off when she attempted to catch it before it hit the floor.

I agree. That is much more likely.

peyton
July 10, 2009, 12:13 PM
What also surprises me is that they identified the gun owner, like you would a suspect. So how concealed of a permit do you have, when everyone knows you have it??

TexasRifleman
July 10, 2009, 12:16 PM
What also surprises me is that they identified the gun owner, like you would a suspect.

Well let's be fair, she's likely committed a crime, intentional or not.

Discharging a firearm, even "accidentally", where it hits someone is probably a crime.

She IS a suspect at this point, even if it wasn't on purpose.

Whether the prosecutor follows up on it remains to be seen, but she is certainly a "suspect".

oneounceload
July 10, 2009, 12:18 PM
Why did the gun discharge from falling the little of a distance and hitting the floor is the question I would like answered........

Cannonball888
July 10, 2009, 12:20 PM
She attemped to catch it by inserting a finger in the trigger guard :rolleyes:

runrabbitrun
July 10, 2009, 12:21 PM
This is one of the areas that alarms me >>> Carrying with one in the chamber all the time.

I know, I know... some people have a need to do so 24/7 and I understand that.

Still though, I predicted a while back as more people get CC permits
this type of AD/ND will occur a lot more, due to many carrying hot all the time.

Let's just hope that in the future legislators don't try to undo what they have done
in the interest of 'public safety'. :rolleyes:

ArmedBear
July 10, 2009, 12:23 PM
She attemped to catch it by inserting a finger in the trigger guard

For those who think that the 1911's or XD's grip safety is superfluous...

Now I know one shouldn't try to catch the gun by the trigger. Duh. Still, in the real world, some room needs to be made, so that little mistakes don't have big consequences -- and I maintain that these consequences are NOT NECESSARY if they can be engineered away easily.

This is one of the areas that alarms me >>> Carrying with one in the chamber all the time.

Again, there are ways to make this safer, and ways to make it more dangerous. I maintain that a semiauto with the lone "safety" on the trigger is more likely to be discharged accidentally, than one that has something like a grip safety.

Does that excuse dangerous gun handling? NO! But I like the idea of engineering something so it takes more to screw it up.

rbernie
July 10, 2009, 12:25 PM
Yup - things like this happen. Trying to catch a dropping handgun and winding up with a finger inside the trigger guard is NOT a unique occurrence. I've done it myself, many years ago, albeit with an unloaded gun.

The key moral is to, despite all instinct to the contrary, just LET IT DROP. I know that we don't like to get them all scratched up, but it sure beats the potential alternative.

SSN Vet
July 10, 2009, 12:28 PM
ya got's to have a "potty plan".....

and practice, practice, practice :)

so let's argue about whether this was an AD or a ND.....

this accident exemplifies why my wife does NOT want to carry

highorder
July 10, 2009, 12:29 PM
I'll be the first to say it; what's to say she didn't ND her weapon while fiddling with it?

She claims she dropped it...

Also, AD's are rare. Most are more appropriately called ND's.

General Geoff
July 10, 2009, 12:35 PM
so let's argue about whether this was an AD or a ND.....

If the gun went off just from hitting the floor, it's an AD.
If the gun went off as a result of her trying to catch it and inadvertantly yanking the trigger, it's a ND.

SSN Vet
July 10, 2009, 12:38 PM
If the gun went off just from hitting the floor, it's an AD.
If the gun went off as a result of her trying to catch it and inadvertantly yanking the trigger, it's a ND.

'tis it not negligent to fail to have your weapon properly secured at all time???

I guess the key is "reasonable care"....

by which standard, likely makes most of these events "accidental"

none the less.... this event reinforces my opinion about manual safeties on semi-autos (being a good thing)

General Geoff
July 10, 2009, 12:42 PM
'tis it not negligent to fail to have your weapon properly secured at all time???

The gun is designed to discharge when the trigger is pulled, not when it's jostled by a hard impact on the floor. Thus, if it is discharged by its designed method (trigger pull), the firearm is working perfectly. If it discharges by being dropped onto a floor, I would consider the firearm to be defective and/or unsafe.

runrabbitrun
July 10, 2009, 12:46 PM
The key moral is to, despite all instinct to the contrary, just LET IT DROP. I know that we don't like to get them all scratched up, but it sure beats the potential alternative.

Yep I leaned that lesson with another tool.
A table saw.
If your work gets bound up or a kick back occurs, simply let it happen
let it drop, let it do what ever it's gong to-do and back away.

And no, I didn't lose a finger that day.
I was very very lucky. :p

SSN Vet
July 10, 2009, 12:58 PM
I view my guns in a very similar manner as my "power tools"

healthy respect and just a shade of fear.

despite what my wife says... they're not toys :)

runrabbitrun
July 10, 2009, 01:01 PM
I view my guns in a very similar manner as my "power tools"
healthy respect and just a shade of fear.
And here I thought I was the only one.

Yo Mama
July 10, 2009, 01:39 PM
So how concealed of a permit do you have, when everyone knows you have it??

It's public record. This is concerning and has been discussed here as well, but newspapers tend to become political and play around with names of CCW holders on occasion.

Still though, I predicted a while back as more people get CC permits
this type of AD/ND will occur a lot more, due to many carrying hot all the time.


Ok, so you're pointing at this one story as hysteria.

starkadder
July 10, 2009, 01:47 PM
Most of the posts on this thread do not address the fact that some guns if loaded, can and will discharge when dropped. A friends girlfriend was shot through the knee when her fathers Model 10 S&W fell from the holster he had secured to the seat of his truck, it landed on the hammer in a concrete parking lot and discharged. She is very lucky to be alive because the bullet entered her leg below the knee, passed through the knee cap, exited above the knee and grazed her chin. :what:
I also witnessed a dealer at a gunshow who was setting up the evening before the show disslodge his Colt Commander (cocked&locked) from the holster, it fell to the floor and disscharged. Luckily the only thing that the bullet hit was the cement wall across the building. :eek:
Most guns made in the last ten to fifteen years incorperate saftey features that make these types of AD "almost" impossible but many older guns can disscharge when dropped.


This is this! It's not something else, it's this!

ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE.

Jolly Rogers
July 10, 2009, 01:56 PM
Posted by Yo Mama
It's public record. This is concerning and has been discussed here as well, but newspapers tend to become political and play around with names of CCW holders on occasion.


That may be debatable if the CCP holder pays a fee for the license and any fingerprint fees etc. If this is the case and no other public funds are used to process the permit then I submit the members of the group aren't public or part of a public record. Besides...how come the media dosen't publish the names of all the public elementary school students and their addresses??? Think the soccer moms would raise a holy Jihad then?
Joe

Leanwolf
July 10, 2009, 02:18 PM
Whether or not the woman who dropped her pistol is charged with a "crime," guess how much money the injured woman is going to sue her for.

Big time $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

L.W.

oneounceload
July 10, 2009, 02:23 PM
I guess if you're gonna get the crap scared out of you, they were in the right place!

I can't see this as a crime - a stupid accident, yes.....a crime? no. Is she gonna get sued? Of course, even lawyers are hurting in this economy

Devilfrog
July 10, 2009, 02:38 PM
It's public record. This is concerning and has been discussed here as well, but newspapers tend to become political and play around with names of CCW holders on occasion.

It's not public record in Florida.

Grump
July 10, 2009, 02:41 PM
With no mention of make and model, most of this discussion on design is mere speculation and WORTHLESS.

A S&W Model 10 discharging when dropped on its hammer? Not any modern version I know of, unless it's been futzed with. The hammer rebound is handled by the trigger slide, which makes it impossible to fire without breaking the hammer pin. Firing by breaking the hammer pin is similarly prevented by that sorta flag-shaped hammer bar which in its upward position (before being pulled down out of the way by the trigger) blocks the top part of the hammer from going deep enough into the frame for the pin to hit the primer.

My Dad carried S&Ws his whole career and once dropped one of his personal ones. Broke the hammer spur, but did NOT fire.

Regarding semiautos with safeties: I'm always a bit leery of ANY design which merely blocks trigger function but does not also trap the hammer or striker and solidly prevent a sear malfunction from firing the gun.

I believe that trigger safeties have been thoroughly discredited as not quite enough.

rbernie
July 10, 2009, 02:41 PM
I guess if you're gonna get the crap scared out of you, they were in the right place!Oneounceload, for the thread win. :)

I also witnessed a dealer at a gunshow who was setting up the evening before the show disslodge his Colt Commander (cocked&locked) from the holster, it fell to the floor and disscharged.This is virtually impossible, barring a mechanical failure of the grip safety or out-of-spec firing pin spring. Even without a firing pin safety, I seem to recall reading that the 1911 should be drop-safe for 8-10 feet.

runrabbitrun
July 10, 2009, 02:50 PM
Ok, so you're pointing at this one story as hysteria.

No not at all.
I'm saying exactly what I said, but will add
the law of averages will catch up. IMHO
Just like when more people got into boating,
more boating accidents occurred.
Or when more people got on the roads,
more auto accidents began to happen.

It's only logical to conclude that as more people carry firearms hot,
(because so many States are 'shall issue' now and I'm happy about that)...
MORE people will have ADs/NDs as a result.

Those statistics (as time goes by) may indeed
be what has some States reversing their CC permits
using 'public safety' a the straw man and a means to disarm you/us
permanently.

Or maybe not. lol

TexasRifleman
July 10, 2009, 03:22 PM
Those statistics (as time goes by) may indeed
be what has some States reversing their CC permits
using 'public safety' a the straw man and a means to disarm you/us
permanently

What states are reversing their carry permit laws?

runrabbitrun
July 10, 2009, 03:47 PM
I guess I should of stated:

'Those statistics (as time goes by) may indeed
be what may have some States reversing their CC permits
using 'public safety' as the straw man and a means to disarm you/us
permanently.'

I don't think any States are doing so now.
But think the 'possibility' of revocations of CC permits for civilians may increase as time goes by.
(IF ADs/NDs continue to rise)...

Sorry if I was unclear.

Another way to put it might be:
The Brady Bunch would love to see more of this happening
so they can 'try' and get more of their 'sensible' gun laws passed.

TexasRifleman
July 10, 2009, 03:49 PM
I don't think any States are doing so now.
But think the 'possibility' of revocations of CC permits for civilians may increase as time goes by.

Ah OK, gotcha. Just wondered if some states were talking about it.

Hopefully things like this are still such a small statistic that it won't come up but you're right, the Bradys and others will use any excuse they find.

WinchesterAA
July 10, 2009, 04:02 PM
I suggest additional curriculum for the CHL, design it to include proper training on -

Relieving yourself while armed - male/female distinction

runrabbitrun
July 10, 2009, 04:04 PM
Ah OK, gotcha. Just wondered if some states were talking about it.

Hopefully things like this are still such a small statistic that it won't come up but you're right, the Bradys and others will use any excuse they find.

Yea that's what I was pretty much eluding to.
I used to think I was pretty good at this posting on the internet stuff,
but I'm getting older and
I'm not as sharp as I 'used' to think I was.
So I guess I really suck at getting my points across. lol

BTW, you do great TR and I love your posts...

Yo Mama
July 11, 2009, 11:03 AM
That may be debatable if the CCP holder pays a fee for the license and any fingerprint fees etc. If this is the case and no other public funds are used to process the permit then I submit the members of the group aren't public or part of a public record.

Has nothing to do with it. Search the topic and you'll see. You're mistake is your trying to use reason! :D

It's not public record in Florida.

The newspaper disagrees.

chuckusaret
July 11, 2009, 11:11 AM
I like the design of my Springfield XD's more and more after reading about all the AD & ND's

chuckusaret
July 11, 2009, 11:17 AM
I don't think any States are doing so now.
But think the 'possibility' of revocations of CC permits for civilians may increase as time goes by.

Yes, IMO irresponsible gun owners should be treated just the same irresponsible vehicle drivers when proven to be irresponsible.

btg3
July 11, 2009, 11:51 AM
I view my guns in a very similar manner as my "power tools"

No argument. But it made me think about how power tools generally fall into two categories:
1. Consumer grade (disposable)
2. Professional grade (maintainable)

feedthehogs
July 11, 2009, 12:38 PM
I like the design of my Springfield XD's more and more after reading about all the AD & ND's

Thats why we have lawyer buttons on power tools, because people can't seem to grasp how to operate them properly.

I'm all for those who need 10 steps on a gun to fire it, it keeps me safe or at least some time to get away from them.

Fear is the absence of knowlege.

starkadder
July 11, 2009, 01:07 PM
Grump...A S&W Model 10 discharging when dropped on it's hammer? Not any modern version that I know of.

First of all I never said that it was a "modern" version, it was actually a vintage M-10 S&W and undoubtedly there was either a saftey issue with the older models or just this particular gun because the family filed a law suit against S&W and they settled the case for a six figure amount.

Rbernie...This is vitually impossible.

First of all I have no knowledge of the condition of the internals of this particular gun, it very well may have been messed with, damaged, or other wise unsafe, but I did get a look at it after the accident and you could clearly see damage to the hammer, beavertail,(due to the impact with the concrete) and also the slide and saftey lever(due to the slide slamming into the saftey when it fired) and I guess I should have mentioned that the damage on the slide and saftey clearly showed that it was either not fully engaged or was disslodged in the fall.

I only wish that I was such an expert that I can say that mechanical devices "can not fail".
If I know anything, I know that any assembly of parts and components into a mechanical device no matter how well made or designed can, and under the right (or wrong) cicumstaces will fail!!!!!

The other explination for your replies is that you are calling me a liar, first of all, I DO NOT LIE I have always believed that if every one told the truth all of the time, the world would be a much better place. Secondly I have no reason to lie to a bunch of faceless nicknames on the enternet because I could care less about your opinion of me.
The facts of both of these events are just that, "facts" wheather you like it or not that is what happened. I have come to expect this from some of the members here ( we have so many EXPERTS) but now we have one of the Moderators claiming that things that can happen, can't.:banghead::banghead:

This is this! It's not something else, it's this!!!!!!!!!!!

ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE.

jon_in_wv
July 11, 2009, 01:16 PM
I love my M&Ps but you have to realize the design limitations when handling it. It doesn't have a manual safety and fumbling around with it in the bathroom is not smart. In that situation I would remove it AND the holster, keeping the weapon in the holster, and I hold it in my lap while I use the bathroom. I carry any pistol like an M&P or a Glock in a rigid holster where there is NO chance of it going off as long as its in the holster.

The other explination for your replies is that you are calling me a liar, first of all, I DO NOT LIE I have always believed that if every one told the truth all of the time, the world would be a much better place.

I'll second that!

Secondly I have no reason to lie to a bunch of faceless nicknames on the enternet because I could care less about your opinion of me.
The facts of both of these events are just that, "facts" wheather you like it or not that is what happened.

On that front. I like to take what is said on these forums at face value. Its the truth unless I have a REAL reason to show its not. Then if you want to challenge it give a REAL reason why you think its not. Attacking someone's credibility as your only reason isn't an very good way to do it. Secondly, its just the internet folks. If you don't agree, post your opinion to the contrary and get over it.

TexasRifleman
July 11, 2009, 01:32 PM
Secondly I have no reason to lie to a bunch of faceless nicknames on the enternet because I could care less about your opinion of me.
The facts of both of these events are just that, "facts" wheather you like it or not that is what happened.

I'm not sure where anyone said you were lying.

The statement made was that the thing you describe is virtually impossible with a 1911.

That is true, it's virtually impossible. That's not saying it could never happen.

The discussion is about the odds of things happening though.

In the news article we have a story that would lead most of us to believe that it was NOT the one in a million mechanical failure that you describe, but simply someone pulling a bonehead move like grabbing a falling pistol by the trigger etc.

I don't see the reason you're worked up about being called a liar, it doesn't appear to me that anyone did.

doc2rn
July 11, 2009, 01:49 PM
ok just took my old 10-4 out and drop tested it onto a sheet of plywood and it went bang from eye level. I am 5'6". I live in the county so neighbors are far away and I stood behind a 1/2 thick steel plate. Let me reitterate that it took me 5 tries to get it just right on the hammer but it can be done. Wish I had take the movie camera, because I think the angle of the barrel would have put round higher than on the ladies ankle to knee area. Man I wish I could have become a CSI!

starkadder
July 11, 2009, 01:53 PM
[But simply someone pulling a bonehead move like grabbing the trigger of a falling gun ect.
I have read this story and nothing in it should lead you to believe that she grabbed the trigger of a falling gun.

The gun went off when it fell to the ground

THIS CAN, WILL, AND HAS, HAPPENED! THIS IS A FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!



this is this! It's not something else, it's this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE.

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