Best Quality AR Under $2000


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Evergreen
July 10, 2009, 09:02 PM
I am seriously looking to purchase a new AR in the near future and I have been doing research but it is not conclusive. I'd be interested to hear from various people here which of these rifles they believe is of superior construction, mil-spec compliant, best accuracy, highest quality components, etc. The Daniel Defense M4 has caught my eye and I have heard only good things about it, but since it is newer, it is not easy to get any comprehensive analysis from the web on this rifle. I would call the company, but never really trust a vendor versus a third party source.

I have been hearing some not good things about the Colt 6940. I hear the rail construction and the components included in Colt's tactical rifle are sub-par. People have been saying that the rail, flip up sights and their monolithic rail system doesn't match up in quality to that of the Daniel Defense or LMT. I don't know the technical details but from reading reviews from some more knowledgable people, they disturbed me.

So, which of these tactical AR guns would you consider to be the most superior quality:
1. Daniel Defense DDM4
2. Colt 6940
3. LMT MRP
4. Noveske
5. Les Baer (Probably more than $2g)
6. LaRue AR
7. YHM
8. Other?

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2RCO
July 10, 2009, 09:17 PM
I'm gonna get crucified for saying this but considering the price range, warranty and actual value involved (not MSRP but actual price) you might want to take a gander at the Ruger SR556.

Out of the list I'd pick a Noveske or Colt--Colt due to many years of drinking the Colt Koolaid and knowing they hold their value quite well.

taliv
July 10, 2009, 09:22 PM
heh, well, if you went up to $2100, i'd say the KAC SR-15, hands-down

but under that... some random comments

1. good quality, but the config is a little unusual... put your hands on one before you buy. i happen to like it but it's not for everyone. be sure to check out their newer DD XV which seems more like an M4 than their "DDM4" (uhh, hello?)
2. awfully new, but selling like hotcakes around here
3. can't go wrong
4. can't go wrong
5. it's only $1500 or so, but it's crap, not in same league with anything else on your li
6. good quality but not the config i want... seems kinda DMR-oriented
7. not at all impressed with their lowers, but it's decent stuff if you're on a budget

some good stuff not on your list: BCM, MSTN

cbrgator
July 10, 2009, 09:23 PM
Noveske, Colt, LMT

ds92
July 10, 2009, 09:39 PM
Noveske, Colt, LMT

Amen.

longdayjake
July 10, 2009, 10:00 PM
Double Star.

Mags
July 10, 2009, 10:03 PM
Other - The one you build yourself.

Z-Michigan
July 10, 2009, 10:13 PM
Decide exactly what you want it to do. Maybe you have already, but I don't see it spelled out above.

The first four on your list should all be great. I recently handled a Les Baer in a local store and frankly I'd take most $900 mainstream AR brands over that Les Baer. Too much money for little benefit, and I didn't like seeing the barrel gas block within about 1/32" of the supposedly free float tube handguard (which seemed to be an inexpensive YHM original style heavy tube, with even fewer ventilation cuts than normal).

LaRue and YHM should be good but I have yet to see any reviews.

Assuming your financial resources are finite and that you're not an infantry veteran or otherwise really experienced with the AR platform, I would seriously consider getting a less expensive AR and spending the extra money on training, magazines, ammo, and perhaps a high quality optic like an Aimpoint. There is not a lot of difference between a good $900-1000 AR and the Colt, LMT and Daniel Defense options that can't be identified and fixed quickly and inexpensively. The biggest thing to watch for is a truly in spec, shot-peened bolt, and for proper staking on the carrier (which is easily fixed if it isn't right). The Noveske on the other hand would get you a somewhat nicer barrel than most other companies offer.

If you want a piston setup I'd look at POF and the Ruger SR-556. I've shot the POF and it's quite nice (though not quite nice enough that I've decided to buy one).

earlthegoat2
July 10, 2009, 10:20 PM
Id have to say the Ruger SR556 is a best buy. Quality is yet to be seen but seriously folks its an AR they are all the same.

taliv
July 10, 2009, 10:34 PM
its an AR they are all the same.

you can't get much more wrong than that

mr.scott
July 10, 2009, 10:42 PM
There's 2 types of people that buy AR's Those that buy one for the name and those that buy one to shoot.

My philosophy in buying an AR is buy a good BASE gun and make the modifications you want and make yours unique to you. If you want a "tier 1" gun, get a Colt 6920LE and pick out a set of rails that you want and put them on, iron sights that fit your needs, new grip that fits your hand, stock that has the features you want, so on and so on.

Matrix187
July 10, 2009, 11:11 PM
Daniel Defense AR's are nice.

TexasRifleman
July 10, 2009, 11:15 PM
My annoying AR statement:

"99% of the ARs on the market are perfectly fine for 99% of the shooters and if you happen to be the 1% you already know it and don't ask the question."


Out of your list I'd buy well.... nothing.

I'd get a Colt 6920.

The 6940 has a monolithic rail that has not had a love fest, as you mention.

But if you like the Colt rails then the 6940 is fine.

6920 and 40 use the same lower.

CDNN is selling the 6920 for $1200. That's hard to beat.

Out of your list the one there's no way you could get me to buy, the Les Baer. Silly.

TurboFC3S
July 10, 2009, 11:17 PM
I'm no smith, but I've built numerous AR's with no experience and just using basic instructions off the web. They really are a snap to put together, and it's a valuable experience to know the ins and outs of ANY firearm you own. I kinda cut my teeth building AR's, and now have much more confidence to take on all sorts of projects. I highly recommend anybody buy the parts and build it yourself.

TexasEd
July 10, 2009, 11:27 PM
I say go with STAG ARMS their doing work for allot of the major players.

TexasPatriot.308
July 10, 2009, 11:31 PM
I own AR15s, AR10s, Aks etc. for the money AND the quality I go with Rock River Arms. I dont think you can go wrong with these guys, their name speaks for itself.

TurboFC3S
July 10, 2009, 11:31 PM
CDNN is selling the 6920 for $1200. That's hard to beat.

I can't see how the Colt is worth $350 more than a CMMG of the exact same configuration ... quoting CDNN price on the CMMG as well. Of course the Colt is a Colt, but other than the name they're equal quality.

I also don't understand why many people think you need to spend $1500-$2000 to get a good AR either. Unless you have a specific list of wants on your rifle, get a quality mid-tier rifle like a CMMG or Rock River and only add the extras if you feel the need. If your first AR is all tac'd out and weighs 10 pounds, you'll never realized the true beauty of a lightweight battle rifle. I've built plenty of AR's with the 13" rails, billet upper and lower, uber accurate stainless heavy profile barrels, etc. But now all my builds have final weight as a top priority, my favorite AR is maybe the most simple one - a 20" Govt profile with NO extras other than a nice sling, not even an optic. 6" 100 yard groups with a full 30 round mag are enough to make me feel pretty confident in getting the job done.

marsche
July 10, 2009, 11:42 PM
Rock River is hard to beat - I don't care how much money you spend.

12131
July 10, 2009, 11:45 PM
Of those who recommend the Ruger SR556,
(1) why, considering it's unproven.
(2) do you own one, or have you done T&E on one?

kcmarine
July 10, 2009, 11:48 PM
http://i32.tinypic.com/2s9q77l.jpg

Howard Clark
July 10, 2009, 11:50 PM
I built one from parts. Not difficult, and with a $2K budget you can do a lot of things. And I second the idea of knowing your rifle inside and out. It is a good thing.

Evergreen
July 11, 2009, 12:50 AM
My budget is more like $1500, but I just wanted to have some type of threshold. $2000 would probably be more than I wanted to spend, but I figure under $2000 was the best figure to use, since I may wish to purchase a rifle that is +/- $1500. If I could pay less better, but not for sacrificing quality and cool and somewhat useless tactical features :D

I am also open to hearing people's views on the gas-piston series AR guns. I ruled out RUger SR556 because its just too new. I am considering Robinson XCR and possibly Sig 556. The SIg 556 just looks downright cheap and kinda ugly. For the $1800 price tag I see on a Sig Swat model, I just wonder if the quality really is there compared to a lesser priced LMT MRP or Colt 6920. The XCR looks real sweet, but I need to hear some hard facts about this gun from long time owners. I like that it uses gas piston system, that means it won't be ultra lube sensitive right?

The LWRC's also look spectacular, but at $2000+, they don't qualify as a candidate for this thread. :(


As far as constructing one myself, I don't think I wanna. Call me lazy or call me cowardly, I just don't have the time, experience or tools to construct my own. It is something I will shoot for in the future.



Another interesting one to put on my list, what about the Robinson XCR 7.62 x 39? Is the 7.62 x 39 less accurate? It seems likea good balacne between the 5.56 and .308, but I am not sure if any match grade or higher quality ammo is avaiable in the typical AK caliber. It may be nice to own this gun. Does anyone think the 7.62 x 39 XCR can handle the cheap russian ammo without much a prob, since it is gas piston system? Would the accuracy using higher grade 7.62 x 39 ammo be equal to that of higher grade of 5.56 ammo?

Perhaps, I am going too far here and should just stick with 5.56 caliber for a CQB. I have heard many advantages of 7.62 x 39 as far as penetration and reduced recoil from 7.62 x 51, just that the guns that shoot it are crappy.

TurboFC3S
July 11, 2009, 01:27 AM
If I could pay less better, but not for sacrificing quality and cool and somewhat useless tactical features

You can, you can pay much less. Give CDNN a call on Monday morning and ask about the CMMG line of rifles. Just pick whatever barrel length and profile you want and order the base model. I single CMMG out because they're what I believe is the best of the mid-tier rifles along with Rock River, but Rock River stuff is much harder to find in stock.

Get the base model, and decide AFTER you shoot the gun for awhile what tacti-cool accessories you want to add.

There's no need to consider a gas piston gun really, the track record of the standard gas system is outstanding. Gas piston stuff theoretically can improve reliability, but the track record isn't there to prove it. I personally own a Sig 556, and it's anything but cheap. They're very well built, they make many AR's feel like cheaply built toys. However I wouldn't recommend one in most cases, get something on the AR platform for your first rifle. The gas piston system really makes the gun more nose heavy and harder to shoot standing.

You sound pretty new to AR's. If you're not going to build it yourself, then keep it simple and get a basic but quality rifle. All the extra stuff just adds weight, but everybody has to have it because it looks cool. The cool factor wears off quick though once your light and mobile weapon suddenly is pushing 10 pounds.

If you want somebody to narrow it down even more, a perfect first AR I'd say would be one of the CMMG Medcon's, 16" barrel, middie gas, rifle sight radius with F marked FSB, 1:7 twist chrome lined, M4 feedramps, flip rear sight. The rifle sight radius is a very cool and worthwhile change from a standard 16" carbine, but keeps the weight down compared to a 20". A couple upgrades worth considering from the get go would be a different stock like a Magpul CTR, Vltor EMOD, or LMT Sopmod. Also a different grip, my favs are the overmolded Ergo and Hogue overmolded.

You could probably get that with the upgrades from CDNN for $1100, just guessing. Shoot it in that config for awhile before thinking about any other stuff like optics or rails. I bet you'll shoot it so well that you'll forget about all that other crap.

SHvar
July 11, 2009, 02:00 AM
Take a look around at all brands, decide for yourself, look at examples in gunshops, look at examples (people you know or meet) that are privately owned. I waited way too long to buy my first AR, and when I looked around I chose a DPMS. I since bought a Bushmaster upper. But have dealt with, fired, and maintained hundreds of AR type rifles for many years.
I looked at the others, I shot some of the others many times, personally I dont think some of the top rated brands are near as good or even close to what they are given credit for.
Decide for yourself, dont listen to brand snobs, dont listen to the claims of those who will tell you that only certain brands will hold up to being fired more than a few hundred rds. Dont listen to those who will tell you that certain brands (aside from Vulcan ARs) will not hold up to carbine or rifle courses. I think most who will tell you those stories have never been to a carbine course, or have ever owned an AR.
I do think LMT makes a good rifle, Bushmaster, and many many others. You could also build a rifle from parts, then you know exactly what went into it.

sarduy
July 11, 2009, 02:01 AM
OP, Other = CMMG and the extra $800 is for a good scope ~$400, 10 pmags ~$150, gun case ~$50 and ~200 of Ammo!.

Post #20, i have a rifle exactly like that. and yeah... it's a CMMG built by me.

Evergreen
July 11, 2009, 02:45 AM
OH yeah, I want to clarify for those who may have misunderstood me. This is NOT my FIRST gun or first AR. I already own a ROck River Entry Tactical Carbine A4, as well as Saiga 308 and a DPMS LR-308.

I am just looking for what can be considered a fun gun, battle gun, SHTF gun, etc etc. I like to get something nice and tacticoolish that is of high quality to add to my collection. Since I do own an AR-10 and AR-15, a gas piston gun like XCR or SIg 556, might give the collection some diversity, I kind of like that. However, a real nice high quality AR that is beefed up and outperforms a gas piston gun would be my preference over an inferior gas piston gun.

Still I am wondering about XCR 7.62 x 39. Is it true XCR's have interchangeable barrels? That seems like a real unique feature that may be interesting. As far as XCR quality, I hear lot of good, but a few gripes. Not sure how it holds it own against LMT MPR, NOveske.

And of course I hear Gas piston system is not long term battle tested. However, from what I hear gas piston AR's seem to outlast DI AR's in torture tests, but that evidence is not conclusive or significant for most situations.


Decide for yourself, dont listen to brand snobs, dont listen to the claims of those who will tell you that only certain brands will hold up to being fired more than a few hundred rds. Dont listen to those who will tell you that certain brands (aside from Vulcan ARs) will not hold up to carbine or rifle courses. I think most who will tell you those stories have never been to a carbine course, or have ever owned an AR.
I do think LMT makes a good rifle, Bushmaster, and many many others. You could also build a rifle from parts, then you know exactly what went into it.

Well, I respect your belief, but I think AR's and automobile have one thing in common, they are mechanical structures with moving and interchageable parts and, although they do all have the same function, the quality from one manufacturer and brand to another does seem some variances in quality. For example, I will take a Subaru Outback anyday of the week over a Ford Sedan because of the endless problems I had with my Fords and the huge mechanic bills I ended up incurring. Thats not to say, that a Ford won't work for you, but it just seems the engineering of the car has some major flaws which were more prevalent over time. My Subaru I owned for many years and have yet to do any major repair job on it. Well, I think I can apply this same logic to AR guns, as well. Sorry, lets not ignite a Japanese vs American car debate here .. :p


OP, Other = CMMG and the extra $800 is for a good scope ~$400, 10 pmags ~$150, gun case ~$50 and ~200 of Ammo!.

I got ammo, I got Nightforce for my .308, an Aimpoint for my ROck River and an ACOG that is crying and lonely for a new home :( . For now the Acog is on the Rock River along with the Aimpoint, but I need another AR to put that sight on.

SO, Since I got ammo and optics, now I like a nice gun to add to the family. Since, I am familiar with AR platform and have lot of mags, ammo , optics for it.. I thought an AR platform, where I Can share the parts would be an advantage.

Did I forget to mention about my interest in the XCR 7.62 x 39 though.. ahh.. I know.. Not practical, right? :rolleyes: Perhaps going to a new caliber is a pain, but if that gun could handle wolf ammo ok without damaging the gun I'd be intersted to know.

Is it a crime to have an additional AR? Also, I have heard from a few sources Rock Rivers are inferior and not Mil-Spec. Not that I think its a bad gun. Iam happy to own it and maybe it has some qualities that a Colt, LMT or other mil-spec gun doesn't have, I am not sure. I own it, so I am not planning on ditching it anytime soon.

Birdmang
July 11, 2009, 02:50 AM
You already have 2 great quality AR's.

FlyinBryan
July 11, 2009, 02:57 AM
well, out of the ones on the list, id have to go with the noveske.

but if your seriously considering spending 2k on an ar, i would chunk another 2 hundred or so on the pile at try to find a knights armament sr15.

i could never bring myself to spend 2k+ on an ar however, and my upper end would probably be a sabre.

Evergreen
July 11, 2009, 02:59 AM
Sorry, I said under $2000.. $2000 + is not allowed :D

Actually, I am not wanting to spend $2000 on an AR. I think I would want to spend $1500.00 +/- a $200 or so. If I can spend less on quality, then I would be happy with that. But, I only said under $2000, so I could hear about guns that may be a little beyond what I am really wanting to spend. I like to get a gun with high quality flip-up sights, long quad rail, high quality stock, trigger and grip already built-in; if possible.

FlyinBryan
July 11, 2009, 03:00 AM
As far as XCR quality, I hear lot of good, but a few gripes.
well, the xcr ejector looks like it should be holding an am radio in a 72 chevy.

Not sure how it holds it own against LMT MPR, NOveske.
the same way bread holds up in a toaster set on high

FlyinBryan
July 11, 2009, 03:02 AM
Sorry, I said under $2000.. $2000 + is not allowed

the noveske you mentioned or a nice sabre defense

RX-178
July 11, 2009, 03:31 AM
If you're interested in variety, there's plenty of EBRs that can be had for less than 2 grand. Sig 556, MSAR STG-556.... Buds even has an FS-2000 for 1,999.

If you're interested in other calibers, the XCR is not a bad choice, and it is true you can convert it to and from different calibers. Although alternatively you could get an AK for around $500, and tacticool it up yourself later.

S&W also makes a 5.45 AR now, which can be found for even less than $1000. An AR-57 might make a fun range toy, and it certainly has a unique appearance, but you'll have to find a lower for it.

sarduy
July 11, 2009, 05:14 AM
well, out of the ones on the list, id have to go with the noveske.

but if your seriously considering spending 2k on an ar, i would chunk another 2 hundred or so on the pile at try to find a knights armament sr15.

i could never bring myself to spend 2k+ on an ar however, and my upper end would probably be a sabre.

i think i know why you like the sabre uppers :evil:

sterling7c
July 11, 2009, 05:35 AM
Been very satisfied with my Daniel Defense M4 - what's not to like. The CMMG would be my second choice - again what's not to like - both well made 'in-spec' items.

Evergreen
July 11, 2009, 06:22 PM
How would people here compare a Colt 6920 , LMT MPR , Noveske to the much cheaper CMMG AR?

This guy has done a real serious review, examining the internal components of various AR models. His final conclusion was CMMG was on par with Colt, LMT and NOveske for much less of a price.

Here is a review:
http://forums.officer.com/showthread.php?t=81462

Do others here agree with this guy?

taliv
July 11, 2009, 07:02 PM
everyone is entitled to an opinion and jwise @ officer.com has put a lot of effort into writing his down, with nice pictures.

but no, i don't agree with him. cmmg is ok, but i'd spend the extra for the colt, lmt or noveske. (in fact, I have spent extra for colt, noveske and have passed on the cmmg)

FlyinBryan
July 12, 2009, 01:03 AM
i have a question, and my apologies if you've answered it somewhere and i missed it, but have your rock river and dpms rifles proven to be fords? or subarus?

AVESguy
July 12, 2009, 12:44 PM
Have a look at

http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/69016/index.html

before you buy...

Interesting stuff by a good guy who knows his AR's.

Evergreen
July 12, 2009, 04:25 PM
i have a question, and my apologies if you've answered it somewhere and i missed it, but have your rock river and dpms rifles proven to be fords? or subarus?

Well, I have not used much of either.. But, from reading various posts and experiences from others who have owned and used these rifles for a long time, I would say they fit more into the "Ford" category. I do have a DPMS LR-308, that I will keep, but I got rid of my 5.56 DPMS SPortical.


I have looked over the M4 chart and according to it, a Colt would seem the way to go.. And that is one of the ways I am leaning, but just looking at my other options. I like the fact that the LMT MPR and Noveske are setup with tactical features using higher quality components. The 6940, uses inferior components on its external parts, like rail and BUIS.

AKElroy
July 12, 2009, 04:53 PM
Cabelas is advertising a bushmaster for $949.00; I have not seen Bushmaster addressed in this thread. I hate to post another question when the OP is seeking answers, but any love for Bushmaster? I am an AK neophite.

RP88
July 12, 2009, 05:17 PM
if you build one, you can easily walk away from CMMG with a high-quality, entry-level match rifle, and a holographic sight, and still have money left over.

Z-Michigan
July 12, 2009, 06:03 PM
I have looked over the M4 chart and according to it, a Colt would seem the way to go.

Look at the same chart. Look at a Charles Daly DM4-LE. For several hundred less than the Colt you're giving up, IIRC, parkerizing under the FSB, and nothing else. There were scarce for a while but are becoming available again, and I saw one online for only $995.

Evergreen
July 12, 2009, 08:35 PM
Isn't parkerizing under the FSB an important feature to prevent corrosion? I could b e speaking out of my backside. I think its either LMT or Noveske who doesn't do this as well, yet still is able to maintain themselves as mil-spec.

As ironic as it sounds I am seeing Colts for the same price as LMT's and lower and much cheaper than NOveske's. The warranty on Colt seem to suck.. Does LMT and Noveske offer Lifetime warranty? That alone may be a major selling point.

The LMT MPR is a gun I am considering... ANyh thoughts about it? Have found one for $1700. Seen them as much as $2500. Not sure if I can just take a colt 6920, chop off the iron sight or replace the gas block and turn it into a tacti-coolish rifle like the LMT MPR.. I like to run a real long rail on it like the MPR has.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 12, 2009, 09:39 PM
Isn't parkerizing under the FSB an important feature to prevent corrosion? I could b e speaking out of my backside.

Actually, I have some experience with this. I had a 16" Bushmaster HBAR that I removed the front sight base off of after almost 10 years. At that point, the rifle had been to a number of weekend shoots/fun matches, and three carbine classes. It had been shot in rain, sleet and everything in between.

When I removed the front sight base, there was a small ring of surface rust maybe .001" thick at the front and back edge of unparkerized part of the barrel. The remainder of the barrel was bright, shiny steel after ten years. No pitting, no corrosion. Not even dull.

Of course that is in North Texas which doesn't have a high humidity environment in general or much in the way of salt spray. I imagine if either of those were a concern for you, you might need a little more protection. My outside barrel maintenance consisted of wiping down the barrel and FSB with CLP once in awhile.

lobo9er
July 12, 2009, 09:47 PM
best AR under 2000 dollars lol i know its easy to spend more but i dont see a point if you have trouble finding a decent AR under $2000 your looking to hard.

lobo9er
July 12, 2009, 09:52 PM
well, the xcr ejector looks like it should be holding an am radio in a 72 chevy. the xcr maybe superior to the AR i would bet it is more dependable if i wanted another high end tactical 5.56/.223 it would be between XCR or SIG

Al Thompson
July 12, 2009, 10:09 PM
The double stars I've looked at have been very decent. Way ahead of the Bushmasters..

TexasRifleman
July 12, 2009, 10:41 PM
I can't see how the Colt is worth $350 more than a CMMG of the exact same configuration ... quoting CDNN price on the CMMG as well. Of course the Colt is a Colt, but other than the name they're equal quality.

Depends on if you ever want to sell it. Right or wrong the Colts hold their resale values much better than the other brands at similar price levels.

eitrheim31
July 13, 2009, 02:06 AM
if you have $2000 to blow on an ar it really doesn't matter which one you get, there all good.

Kentucky
July 13, 2009, 02:26 AM
heh, well, if you went up to $2100, i'd say the KAC SR-15, hands-down


Interesting. I am not familiar with those, will have to do some reading.

What is it that they do so well that they rank hands down above a Noveske for example?

Evergreen
July 13, 2009, 03:31 AM
After doing some research, I really am starting to feel like the LMT MRP CQB Gas piston Ar-style rifle would be a really wonderful addition to my collection. It seems to be both modern (using long researched gas piston system), intelligently tacticoolish (has monotholic one piece rail system built into the receiver) and uses high quality, mostly mil-spec parts. It seems to be the best of all worlds. I have been reading nothing but compliments on this gun, yet to hear any criticism. A reviewer just did a very thorough analysis comparing his HK416 to his LMT MRP Piston and he seem to really prefer the LMT MRP Piston over the HK416.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26421

The design of the gun is closer to that of an AR than any other gas piston gun, but has the proper components engineered so that the gun is modular as well as does not have the same problems of fouling and residue buildup that the DI guns have. I am really liking this gun from what I read.


This has struck a great deal of interest in me.. I almost think if I can find this gun for $1800, I will take it. It seems to retail for more. Not sure where I can get it. I am also considering the LMT MRP CQB DI gun which is suppose to in the future have an ability to upgrade the gun to the gas piston system for not too much more money.

SHvar
July 13, 2009, 12:42 PM
If you like the LMT MRP you can get a complete upper for $1449 new. Pretty close to the average price of most GP AR uppers. Its was one of the options I checked out closely when getting a GP upper myself.

SHvar
July 13, 2009, 01:11 PM
Evergreen, as far as comparing AR rifles to car manufacturers goes. I dont think anyone can truthfully compare any reputable AR made by any major manufacturer (except Vulcan junk) to any comparison to auto manufacturers. I worked on cars for years, and as a result today own 2 Hondas. Comparing any major brand AR to a car manufacturer would not be accurate because all major brand ARs would be above subaru, above toyota, and debateable whether they are the same, above, or below Nissan and Honda. I wouldnt compare any AR to any American car manufacturer, unfortunately being a long time American car owner beforehand and my experience working on cars has taught me to avoid American cars.
There are no people here or anywhere that can tell you truthfully that carbine courses, normal use, LEO use, or even military combat use will damage, wear out, destroy, or even show a difference in any commercially available AR aside from Vulcan. Anyone who claims otherwise is talking out of their backside. There are people who say that brand A, or brand B do not make it through carbine courses simply because they know that most people here have never been to one, and doesnt know that the person making the comment has never been to one themselves.
Then theres the claim that they heard that brand a or brand b commonly breaks in carbine courses, its just like the other course claims, talking out the backside again.
Americans are very good at making semiauto gas operated rifles such as the AR. I wish the auto indstry would take notes here.

nulfisin
July 13, 2009, 01:45 PM
I have a CMMG lower and a Rock River upper. They go together like peas and carrots, and I save a couple hundred dollars buying that way. ($800 with carrying handle but no magazines, last week).

I've also "built ARs." To me, the only reason to build an AR is fun. It's not worth doing it so save money.:rolleyes:

FlyinBryan
July 13, 2009, 01:47 PM
Have a look at
http://www.tacticalyellowvisor.net/69016/index.html
before you buy...
Interesting stuff by a good guy who knows his AR's.

he probably is just a fantastic person, but i have seen him resort to childish name calling when conversations are not allowed to be slightly twisted to fit the message he wishes to deliver, but then again, so do my little nephews and nieces, and i love them all dearly.

at least one column of the ar15 qualities chart is not accurate where my rifles are concerned. this is not just my opinion. this is the opinion of almost 70 people that inspected the item in question, in which over 95% agreed.

edit: i also agree with shvar. every word actually

MP-44
July 13, 2009, 03:51 PM
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=311008&reference=/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi%3Fsearch%3Daction%26keywords%3D%26searchstart%3D9%26template%3DPDGCommTemplates/FullNav/SearchResult.html%26category%3DSMWE

S&W MP15X. It comes with Troy flip up rear sight and Troy railed handguards for $912. That is a killer deal on a high quality AR.

Evergreen
July 13, 2009, 04:04 PM
Looks like a nice gun.. However, I have heard that S&W M&P cuts a lot of corner using inferior grade parts to Colt.. Also, I was hoping to have a barrel constructed with a 1:7 twist versus 1:9. I am sure the S&W M&P is a nice gun and for the price it looks like a great deal.. And, as one person wrote, you cannot compare ARs like comparing cars, as we will probably not abuse any of our guns enough to truly push them to their potential. However, I still like to get a highest quality AR I can, just so I know I have one, if nothing else.

It does seem like some of the exterior components on the S&W M&P are good quality. I was disappointed to see the COlt 6940 uses low grade filp up sights and a lower quality quad rail on such an expensive gun.

mp5a3
July 13, 2009, 04:09 PM
Talon Arms has an LMT Defender for $1199, and a lot of places have Colt 6920's for $1199. To me those are 2 mil spec guns at tough to beat prices. Actually, if you don't want the LMT, I may jump on that.

lobo9er
July 13, 2009, 05:05 PM
i had a Smith & Wesson M&P 15 I may have bought a "lemon" it got sent back to smith and wesson sent back to me rebarreled still was finky as all heck i wouldn't buy another M&P 15 - BUSHMASTER are proven BUT like i said earliar though THE XCR RIFLE to quote Bulrat "very nice"

SHvar
July 14, 2009, 01:14 AM
A co-worker who is a long time AR enthusiast dislikes colt rifles period, he loves his DPMS, Bushmasters, RRA, and a few others. He has had a few colts, all had various quality problems, unexpected breakage, and he never thought that they seemed very accurate, nor was the finish very good quality, worse he didnt like the sloppiness between the upper and low common in colts compared to other brands.
I have had good experience with colt M-16A2s (the originals), and a few colt ARs Ive used, I didnt quite like the finish on the ARs, something about it didnt look right, Im sure very durable though.
The M-16A2s I used later made by FN seemed to have a different finish, and were tighter between the upper and lower.
After getting a bushy upper Id buy from them again, if I were buying another rifle. My DPMS impressed me from the beginning, but the 1 inch heavy barrel it has limits how much I like shooting it in comparison.
S&W finish looks good, and has the defining white letters that stand out, Im sure they are good rifles, the 5.45X39 option is nice also.
In reality very minute details separate all brands in any model regardless of anyone claims, this has to do with the individual manufacturers combination of various features they prefer.
Colt makes some of their rifles to milspecs, which are purely a minimum standard for military contract purchase only, not by any means better, more durable, more accurate, or more balanced.
Ive never known a single person to ever wear out a commercially available AR of any major manufacturer, or to have failures that are related to having non-milspec features over any milspec featured rifle. In fact there are far too many owners here (and that I know in person) that have had and fired Bushy, DPMS, RRA, S&W, etc far more than any owners of colts, etc from what Ive read, and are more satisfied with their choices. Also consider that some colt pins are not milspec size, nor can they be used in other non-colt lowers.
Colt sometimes uses whats called a C-bolt carrier which has a section cut from the rear of the bolt carrier to allow it to work unimpeded in their lowers that may have the block to make changing any internal parts in the lower very difficult. These features in colt civilian models make them NON-milspec by definition, just as other brands are.
Look for yourself, pick them up, and see what you like, not what someone else thinks is better because of its name brand.

FlyinBryan
July 14, 2009, 01:28 AM
co-worker who is a long time AR enthusiast dislikes colt rifles period, he loves his DPMS, Bushmasters, RRA, and a few others. He has had a few colts, all had various quality problems, unexpected breakage, and he never thought that they seemed very accurate, nor was the finish very good quality, worse he didnt like the sloppiness between the upper and low common in colts compared to other brands.

pretty much the same for me except ive only had one colt. i will not buy another one, but thats not to say they are all bad, just mine was.

i do believe like shvar mentioned, that the term mil-spec can be misleading.

this is a milspec bed.

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv162/flyinbryan_photos/lgarmy-bed.jpg

this does not mean its the best bed you can get

Evergreen
July 14, 2009, 03:54 AM
Seems like we have a few guys here who don't drink the Colt Kool-Aid. That is good, I admired an objective view on the subject.

As far as that bed, that looks like the best bed you can get, probably will prevent all the back problems some of these flimsy $5000 beds you get at your luxury furniture stores :neener:


Well, the Colt people here seem to get nauseated if you use the "D" or "B" word here, that is "DPMS" or "Bushmaster". They believe due to the lack of mil-spec part compliance that DPMS and Bushy fail to achieve, that they are the worst forms of garbage. I dunno, I Have heard horror stories and glory stories of each. I do own a DPMS LR-308 and really have not heard any complaints about the DPMS .308 models, actually mostly praises. Not sure about the 5.56..

I am really struggling.. I am also starting to consider forking out the big bucks and get something fancy that I wont have to upgrade later, like a XCR, LWRC , POF or an LMT MRP. Daniel Defense M4 has also caught my eye.. Ugly as it maybe, I do hear its perhaps the best of all tactical setups available. And the price of DD is affordable, considering the high quality parts it is constructed with and the high quality furniture its supplied with.

THe LMT MRP is very nice looking gun and I have heard that LMT's are the top of the line in construction. I dunno if what I hear about S&W M&P15's being the most accurate, due to their Thompson barrel is true or not? Anyone have any feelings on this?

I am really struggling on which rifle I should get :banghead:

taliv
July 14, 2009, 08:38 AM
read their posts carefully, evergreen.

the people who "aren't drinking the colt kool-aid" are evaluating based mostly on "finish" and things like "sloppiness between the upper and lower"

if you're going to judge your rifle by how the white letters on the receiver stand out, i'd also advise against the colt.

(edit: and i'm not saying that's a bad thing... different people want different things from their guns. if you're a collector, that's probably a lot more important to you)

FlyinBryan
July 14, 2009, 02:54 PM
actually, mine did have some running issues to go along with being generally poorly fitted

but hear me out. i honestly think it was a fluke thing.

i completely believe that colt makes outstanding ar15's. and i also believe that the imfamous chart does indeed do them justice.

but i also believe that the same chart has a somewhat one sided view on some of the brands that cost less. one part that really sticks out, to me at least, is the column in the chart about "gas key properly staked". the chart says it is not, but on my rifles at least, this is not the case. i know that is easy for me to claim, so i did a poll.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=446662

as you can see, the results suggest otherwise.

this, at least in my mind, does not favor the credibility of the chart. how many other columns, and graded features might be incorrect?

im not suggesting that you buy a bushmaster, and im not saying that others are not better.

i honestly believe that for your intended purposes, just about any of them will make you happy.

also, as far as which one is the most accurate, for the most part, that is going to be decided by which barrel profile you select, not by which brand you select.

for some insight on the accuracy traits of the different barrel profiles, you might want to check out the ar15 match link in my sig.

the current leader at 200 yards has 5 shots in .75". thats five rounds covered by a quarter AT 200 YARDS!!!!! lol, impressive huh?

Z-Michigan
July 14, 2009, 03:38 PM
Also, I was hoping to have a barrel constructed with a 1:7 twist versus 1:9.

Just be sure you'll get a benefit from 1:7. That twist is needed for M856 tracer in cold weather and also for 77gr SMK. It's also good for 75gr Hornady though many people get the Hornady to work in a 1:9 twist. For 55-62gr bullets the 1:9 will generally be better, will wear longer and may even provide slightly higher velocity. I think the twist rate is another area where we are all conditioned to think that the mil-spec 1:7 twist rate is better, but unless using military M856 tracer, or the 77gr SMK (or heavier), it probably isn't.

SHvar
July 15, 2009, 01:23 AM
A note about milspecs in AR/M16 rifles, any manufacturer that makes a milspec rifle for governement contract will make it with every milspec feature with the same exact materials, etc. So therefore what is left to compare when choosing a brand fit, finish, feel, and durability in the actual individual rifle.
Instead of commenting on parts of someone elses comments, again Ill say, choose for what you want, not by brand snobs choices.
Actually in reality how many AR rifles made by all manufacturers have the M16/FA bolt carrier? Think about this, for the average shooters use, what purpose does that serve? One of mine has the FA/M16 carrier, guess what, its a Bushmaster, its a gas piston M4, it has no need for staking of the gas key, it has no gas key.
The chart shows individual differences in civilian M4 models by manufacturer choice, not because these differences are better, worse, more durable, or more accurate. It shows purely from the standpoint of a small group of individual M4 rifles which models fit closest to a list of mostly colt features. The chart also shows a listing of features, some of which are milspecs, not all.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 15, 2009, 06:46 PM
Interesting. I am not familiar with those, will have to do some reading.

What is it that they do so well that they rank hands down above a Noveske for example?

The Knight's SR15E3 use a different bolt, barrel extension, midlength gas and a number of other modifications that greatly improve lifespan and reliability (not to mention an impressive cold-hammer forged barrel). The Noveske is a great rifle that will run like a clock; but there are certain inherent limitations in using parts that were originally designed for a 20" rifle in a shorter carbine.

Ive never known a single person to ever wear out a commercially available AR of any major manufacturer, or to have failures that are related to having non-milspec features over any milspec featured rifle.

I'd say that says more about your typical shooting habits than it does about ARs. If you shoot ARs in 3-gun/carbine courses/training, you are going to see failures (and across every brand, including Colts). Broken bolts, broken bolt catches, parts falling off, missing locknuts, broken castle nut plates, sheared gas keys, loose gas keys, etc. I've seen at least one example of each of those and just in the last 8 years of shooting recreationally.

I think Texas Rifleman has a good comment on the subject that 99% of ARs are perfectly fine for 99% of the shooters out there and if you are in that 1% you know who are and don't need to ask. SHvar's comments fit well for that 99%.

An AR is a machine, and all machines wear with use. Some will wear faster than others because they cut corners on parts. Some will wear faster than others because they just plain get used harder. Everybody has to decide for themselves what level of maintenance they are willing to do and what acceptable rate of failure they are willing to pay for. A good thread for evaluating that can be found here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=243382).

SHvar
July 16, 2009, 12:37 AM
Unfortunately it does not matter what brand you pick, all companies ARs will have the same problems regardless of milspec features or not.
In fact Bart from your own opinions, all brands have the same failures, yet Ive talked to several carbine course instructers after reading these fictional comments on this forum about ARs failing so much except certain brands.
You see, being in law enforcement I get more exposure to these things in person than the typical JoShmo that comments and claims about things that they dont understand.
I also work with special team members who take these courses every year as required training, and fire their AR type rifles far more than any typical civilian ever will.
Why is it that on internet forums among colt fans theres always claims about non colt/LMT/etc brands failing when in reality it has rarely ever happened period?
Why is it that I know of more failed milspec ARs and colts than any other brand, some of these units used colts at one time, then bought other brands since for reliability reasons.
In fact I know one within a few miles of my house that had colts for years, then bought Bushmasters to replace them, they have had better luck with the Bushys.
You see I dont fall for those carbine course claims of so called "lesser brands" (in the eyes of colt fans) failing or not being able to complete carbine courses, or tactical training. Around this forum the carbine course myth has gotten old and needs to stop.
Ive fired my ARs in the last year alone more than most here have fired theres in many years, but there are many more who have thousands more rds than myself through there non colt ARs.
I know too many long time AR owners and have far too much experience with these rifles to fall for the fictional claims by many who post here.

Evergreen
July 16, 2009, 06:36 AM
Good post Shvar.. Very sobering.. Well, I met a law enforcement trainer who said that Colt 6920's were the only gun through all his testing that were functional after server torture testing and that all the lower grade ARs would fall to pieces or malfunction when compared to Colt. Yeah, he was a die hard Colt fan. He showed me his humble Colt 6920 with no rail, just a light attached to the fixed iron sight. Nothing that you would brag about at the range, except its a Colt.

Your opinion is one I have heard from othres, and being in LE, I think you are a credible source, especially if you have put various rifles through torture tests. I guess I just don't get why some people say Colts are the Almighty rifle whereas others say that their little cheap DPMS 5.56 can outperform the superior mil-spec Colt.

I know there is other factors, like proper fitting parts, tighter tolerances, etc that I am not aware of.


On a final note, I have decided tomorrow to purchase an LMT MRP AR DI rifle. I am finding one for little less than $1700 Shipped. Iknow itsa big price to pay but I have heard only good things about this rifle. Also, it has a lot of potential and is modular. I can exchange a gas piston assembly into the gun and change barrels. I was planning to start shooting 6.8 spl eventually , when I start getting into reloading and would find changing a barrel to be a nice feeature and would be more economical than buying another complete upper.

Bartholomew Roberts
July 16, 2009, 08:48 AM
I know too many long time AR owners and have far too much experience with these rifles to fall for the fictional claims by many who post here.

Well, if you ever get tired of posting about how much shooting experience you have, it is always nice to have somebody else who is training hard and sharing their training experiences with us (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=278688). I know I have been able to learn a lot from guys on here that way and I am sure I have something to learn from you as well given how different our individual experiences have been with shooting ARs.

Guns and more
July 16, 2009, 12:06 PM
My local gun purveyor has a LMT carbine on display. This thing is beautiful and small.
Beautiful in that the machining is perfect, and there doesn't seem to be anything that isn't needed. I'd love one, but my Colt has been perfect so I don't need two.

RockyMtnTactical
July 16, 2009, 03:33 PM
LMT or Noveske

Evergreen
July 16, 2009, 04:27 PM
Well, the deal is done..

Today, I just purchased a brand new LMT MRP CQB 16 for $1670 shipped and transferred. I bought the complete upper and lower (Complete rifle). I had many options and gun prices were looking good, but I went with this gun because of all I read from various websites and from talking with some experienced shooters who also gave me the green light with this gun. I was considering a Colt 6940, S&W M&P15T or even a Robinson XCR, but the LMT MRP CQB was the choice I made.

I hope I did well.. These guns are very hard to find and I saw some people selling them for over $2000, so I feel lucky I could get such a deal. I am going to get some tacti-cool gadgets for the gun soon, like laser, light and foregrip and will hopefully get some gun porn up here when I get it all setup.

I know many will say Noveske was better, but those guns were just too dang expensive and I don't really know how much better a Noveske is.

I do appreciate the various suggestions and advice that people have given me here.

aloharover
July 16, 2009, 07:06 PM
Ive never known a single person to ever wear out a commercially available AR

Just want to say that I know shooters that change out their bolt/barrel every year because they shoot so much.

I have seen cracks appear in bolts in as little as 5k rounds.

XxWINxX94
July 16, 2009, 11:19 PM
Colt has nice one's that are about $2000 and under. With the Colt, you get the 100+ year old firearm making expirence. May not be as cheap, but you will be quite satisfied. My buddy owns the National Match Heavy Barrel (HBAR). Your going to pay more for things like that, but its a dream come true at the target bench. I can only speak for the Colt because I've shot it, but I'm sure the others aren't garbage either.

Boba Fett
July 16, 2009, 11:48 PM
+1 for Rock River Arms.

hags
July 17, 2009, 01:58 AM
There are no people here or anywhere that can tell you truthfully that carbine courses, normal use, LEO use, or even military combat use will damage, wear out, destroy, or even show a difference in any commercially available AR aside from Vulcan. Anyone who claims otherwise is talking out of their backside. There are people who say that brand A, or brand B do not make it through carbine courses simply because they know that most people here have never been to one, and doesnt know that the person making the comment has never been to one themselves.

My goodness..............

Can I ask if you've ever been to a carbine course? I've put 1000 rounds + through some of my ARs in an afternoon (long). I've seen bolts crack, carrier keys come loose, receiver extension/buffer tubes come loose etc....

The fact is that some parts are better than others, and some ARs are put together better than others. It's that simple, you just can't argue with that logic.

You see, being in law enforcement I get more exposure to these things in person than the typical JoShmo that comments and claims about things that they dont understand.
I also work with special team members who take these courses every year as required training, and fire their AR type rifles far more than any typical civilian ever will.
Why is it that on internet forums among colt fans theres always claims about non colt/LMT/etc brands failing when in reality it has rarely ever happened period?
Why is it that I know of more failed milspec ARs and colts than any other brand, some of these units used colts at one time, then bought other brands since for reliability reasons.
In fact I know one within a few miles of my house that had colts for years, then bought Bushmasters to replace them, they have had better luck with the Bushys.

I have family and friends that are LEOs. I sell to alot of LEOs and active military. I can tell you from first hand experience, the majority of LEOs are not "shooters" or even gun fans. In fact some, if not most have less exposure to these things than your average gun nut.
My radar goes off when I hear a LEO shooting his mouth off about his vast and superior knowledge of firearms, most guys that can shoot, especially Federal agents, and man can those guys shoot, don't.
If the "special team members" you know are taking these courses once a year they are way behind some of the people I know and sell to when it comes to training.
I don't know many PDs that could afford to spend what it would take to equip all of their LEOs with Colts. There are some but the majority buy Bushmaster or other brands based on cost. It's based on cost and what is in the budget for such things, not necessarily performance.

I think your blanket statements regarding ARs, AR manufacturers, mil-specs and internet forums shows a lack of experience and/or working knowledge with regard to these subjects.
I don't see many facts in your posts, I don't see alot of helpful info with regard to your vast experience(s).

These kind of statements serve no purpose and detract from what most are here for.

Ive fired my ARs in the last year alone more than most here have fired theres in many years, but there are many more who have thousands more rds than myself through there non colt ARs.
I know too many long time AR owners and have far too much experience with these rifles to fall for the fictional claims by many who post here.

You can either buy it right, Colt, LMT, DD, Noveske, etc or build it right.

Just my $.02 worth.:D

SHvar
July 17, 2009, 01:04 PM
"The fact is that some parts are better than others, and some ARs are put together better than others. It's that simple, you just can't argue with that logic."
Yes, one brand, vulcan, junk. The problem is you did not use logic in your responce, or facts.

"I can tell you from first hand experience, the majority of LEOs are not "shooters" or even gun fans. In fact some, if not most have less exposure to these things than your average gun nut."

You do not know any or very few LEOs then, among LEOs there are non gun owners, some that shoot on occasion, and among LEOs there are tons of gun nuts, in fact I find more so than among anywhere else in society lots of gun nuts. Its a heavy topic of discussion at work, and some have their own private ranges which are alot nicer than most ranges available to the public.

"My radar goes off when I hear a LEO shooting his mouth off about his vast and superior knowledge of firearms"

Again, you show how few LEOs you actually know then.

"If the "special team members" you know are taking these courses once a year they are way behind some of the people I know and sell to when it comes to training"

By the way, these guys spend 6 months or more every year training across the US, I cant tell you or anyone else here about some of the training these guys do or where they do it. These unit have their own budgets, their own armories, and shoot every time they train.

"I don't know many PDs that could afford to spend what it would take to equip all of their LEOs with Colts. There are some but the majority buy Bushmaster or other brands based on cost. It's based on cost and what is in the budget for such things, not necessarily performance.

This shows how little you know about LEO agencies, and what they spend, also what these rifle cost them.
I can walk into an LEO supply store and buy a S&W M&P15 for under $900 complete, my agency can purchase a full auto version for over $100 less, right in the catalog. I can tell you that most agencies had colts because they get them cheap, again your lack of knowledge on this subject shows, these agencies can buy a colt for the same price as any other brand (between $600-$900 depends on where they purchase from).


"I think your blanket statements regarding ARs, AR manufacturers, mil-specs and internet forums shows a lack of experience and/or working knowledge with regard to these subjects."

You just showed your total lack of knowledge on these subjects with your responce, your facts are far from the truth, and you shoot your mouth off alot about LEOs when you know nothing about them.

hags
July 17, 2009, 01:15 PM
"The fact is that some parts are better than others, and some ARs are put together better than others. It's that simple, you just can't argue with that logic."
Yes, one brand, vulcan, junk. The problem is you did not use logic in your responce, or facts.

"I can tell you from first hand experience, the majority of LEOs are not "shooters" or even gun fans. In fact some, if not most have less exposure to these things than your average gun nut."

You do not know any or very few LEOs then, among LEOs there are non gun owners, some that shoot on occasion, and among LEOs there are tons of gun nuts, in fact I find more so than among anywhere else in society lots of gun nuts. Its a heavy topic of discussion at work, and some have their own private ranges which are alot nicer than most ranges available to the public.

"My radar goes off when I hear a LEO shooting his mouth off about his vast and superior knowledge of firearms"

Again, you show how few LEOs you actually know then.

"If the "special team members" you know are taking these courses once a year they are way behind some of the people I know and sell to when it comes to training"

By the way, these guys spend 6 months or more every year training across the US, I cant tell you or anyone else here about some of the training these guys do or where they do it. These unit have their own budgets, their own armories, and shoot every time they train.

"I don't know many PDs that could afford to spend what it would take to equip all of their LEOs with Colts. There are some but the majority buy Bushmaster or other brands based on cost. It's based on cost and what is in the budget for such things, not necessarily performance.

This shows how little you know about LEO agencies, and what they spend, also what these rifle cost them.
I can walk into an LEO supply store and buy a S&W M&P15 for under $900 complete, my agency can purchase a full auto version for over $100 less, right in the catalog. I can tell you that most agencies had colts because they get them cheap, again your lack of knowledge on this subject shows, these agencies can buy a colt for the same price as any other brand (between $600-$900 depends on where they purchase from).


"I think your blanket statements regarding ARs, AR manufacturers, mil-specs and internet forums shows a lack of experience and/or working knowledge with regard to these subjects."

You just showed your total lack of knowledge on these subjects with your responce, your facts are far from the truth, and you shoot your mouth off alot about LEOs when you know nothing about them.

Well, what can I say to this. You are obviously light years ahead of me when it comes to just about everything.

I can tell you this, most PDs have some sort of educational requirement. Most LEOs I know would be able to spell the word "response" correctly. I mean, you do have to fill out reports, correct????

Oh yeah, I'd stand by my initial response to your posts all day long.

hags
July 17, 2009, 01:17 PM
I don't wanna turn this into a pissing contest. I'll take you at your word, you are omnipotent.

However, the fact is, some parts are better than others and some guns are built better than others.

Buy it the right way or build it the right way.

;)

hags
July 17, 2009, 01:32 PM
This shows how little you know about LEO agencies, and what they spend, also what these rifle cost them.
I can walk into an LEO supply store and buy a S&W M&P15 for under $900 complete, my agency can purchase a full auto version for over $100 less, right in the catalog. I can tell you that most agencies had colts because they get them cheap, again your lack of knowledge on this subject shows, these agencies can buy a colt for the same price as any other brand (between $600-$900 depends on where they purchase from).

Yes, you get an LEO discount. It is not as great as my dealer discount.

Departments get a quantity discount and the LEO discount as well as any incentives from manufacturers.

So, all things being equal, and they are with the LEO and PD/quantity discounts included, the Colt/LMT/Noveske types will still be more expensive.

You have to buy the firearm(s) with your "badge" to receive your LEO discount. If you're buying a .22LR target rifle or .204 varmint rifle you won't get your LEO disount, unless it's done at the discretion of the dealer.

Did I miss anything?

Al Thompson
July 17, 2009, 03:39 PM
By the way, these guys spend 6 months or more every year training

I find that hard to believe. Name some names.. If it's a public agency that shouldn't be an issue.

Edited to add: I just researched SHvar's posts. Hags has it right IMHO.

Mr. T
July 17, 2009, 04:06 PM
I would have to recommend Bushmaster. They build one fine weapon. No rattles or clunky noise from them and they are accurate. Clover leafs at 100 yards, consistently. Good quality built gun for the money.:)

eric.cartman
July 17, 2009, 04:07 PM
I have a $700 RRA AR15. NEVER oiled or cleaned. NEVER jammed in 10 months and thousands of rounds I've put through it.

Mr. T
July 17, 2009, 04:29 PM
Hey Eric,

I don't doubt your word on that last post, but that's how stuff breaks on these things...when you let the crud and crap build up on the parts. Furthermore it's a lot harder to clean up that weapon after that stuffs been on there for awhile.

Mr. T
"Respect my Authoriteeee"

Evergreen
July 18, 2009, 01:07 AM
I am the OP and I know my last post got lost in the hail of confrontation between a couple of members on the thread. Hey, I have to say it was pretty exciting to read your guys' posts, no hard feelings.. :D:D:D

Anyhow, back to the subject.. I did just purchase an LMT (Lewis Machine & Tool) MRP CQB 16 from a dealer for $1670 shipped and transferred to my hands.

I am really looking forward to shooting this and plan on maybe upgrading to the stainless steel barrel in the future. I will probably buy some very heavy grain bullets for Self Defense since its a 1:7 twist barrel, which should be close ballistic-wise to a lighter load 6.8spc bullet.

Well, I hope I made a good decision in my purchase. I see a lot of people selling this same gun for $1800+, that is, if your lucky enough to find it. I feel a bit guilty, like I should have paid less money and got a Colt 6920/40 or S&W M&P 15, but I just went all out for $300 or $400 more. Well, this gun should last me a couple life times I hope.

If anyone has any comments about the gun I bought, I would be glad to hear.

FlyinBryan
July 18, 2009, 01:30 AM
ya, i caught it e.g.

congrats on your new rifle.

as far as it lasting a couple of lifetimes, that just depends on how much you shoot it and how accurate you need it to be.

it will last a long long time. ive heard it said that the faster twist rate will shoot out before a slower one will, but i think your 15k-20k rounds away from really having to concern yourself with that.

i honestly believe that just about any ar would have made you happy, but you got the one you wanted, and thats really what its all about!!!!!

you will be happy with it im sure.

i have no experience with lmt rifles, but ive read that you should keep an eye on the fsb pins as ive read that they are not the taper type pins that most rifles have. ive read that they have a comparatively high rate of becoming problematic. (i read it, but ive never heard of it actually happening) i think it was in bartholemew roberts "34 ways ar makers cut corners" article on this website somewhere.

regardless, i think you will be very happy.

personally i think those pins have about as much a chance backing out as my rifles have of rusting under the front sight base, lol.

congrats, and now you have no excuse not to post an entry here!!!!!!
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=460043

SHvar
July 20, 2009, 01:39 AM
"spell the word "response" correctly. I mean, you do have to fill out reports, correct????"

Yes, and I have a permanently damaged finger that gets in the way when typing sometimes. I find that it seems to have a mind of its own and if I feel like closely spell checking (I dont have the time to respond all day long here) I find alot of errors from extra letters etc from that finger.

Next, about my career, and my department, thats not a subject to be discussed here, thats nobody else business, for my safety, and that of my family. But, yes paperwork is a big part of the job, and most of it is hand written.

"Oh yeah, I'd stand by my initial response to your posts all day long"

Of course, you work for a gunshop nothing more needed to say.

By the way the LEO supply store I refer to does not sell to the public, you need your ID (not always a badge) to purchase anything. They also have me on file to make purchases easier for many years now. The prices I referred to are straight from their catelog, around half of the price colts sold for in gunshops recently, this store never raised their prices. Agency purchases are made either with supervisors signed permission (such as high cap mags during the 94-04 ban, I could have bought 15rders for my personal glock with permission of my supervisor for $15 each then, $89 at a gunshop), or by agencies. The individual LEO can buy with work ID for prices far below what gunshops charge.

hags
July 20, 2009, 02:07 AM
"spell the word "response" correctly. I mean, you do have to fill out reports, correct????"

Yes, and I have a permanently damaged finger that gets in the way when typing sometimes. I find that it seems to have a mind of its own and if I feel like closely spell checking (I dont have the time to respond all day long here) I find alot of errors from extra letters etc from that finger.

Next, about my career, and my department, thats not a subject to be discussed here, thats nobody else business, for my safety, and that of my family. But, yes paperwork is a big part of the job, and most of it is hand written.

"Oh yeah, I'd stand by my initial response to your posts all day long"

Of course, you work for a gunshop nothing more needed to say.

By the way the LEO supply store I refer to does not sell to the public, you need your ID (not always a badge) to purchase anything. They also have me on file to make purchases easier for many years now. The prices I referred to are straight from their catelog, around half of the price colts sold for in gunshops recently, this store never raised their prices. Agency purchases are made either with supervisors signed permission (such as high cap mags during the 94-04 ban, I could have bought 15rders for my personal glock with permission of my supervisor for $15 each then, $89 at a gunshop), or by agencies. The individual LEO can buy with work ID for prices far below what gunshops charge.

What does me owning a gunstore have to do with anything? I use and shoot what I sell and vice versa. I shoot alot, I have customers that shoot alot more and I get to "play" with alot of different makes and models of what we're talking about here. That allows me to sort through all kinds of firearms. So please enlighten me on what your comment means.

Yes, you need ID, sometimes department authorization on dept. letterhead. The word badge was in quotes to signify "as an LEO", don't think to many buy Browning Citoris on their "badge" if you follow my meaning.
Of course you were paying less, they weren't restricted to LEOs.
Right, you pay slightly more than what I pay with my FFL. I know how that works.

Based on other threads I see you post in I'd say you have a grudge against Colt. It seems you hold them in disdain because they're the gold standard.

We can break in down into simpler terms. Straight ahead comparisons such as the mil-spec B-11595E 1:7 twist barrels versus the 4140 barrels that other companies use.
Certainly you'd agree that the barrel material used in say a Colt or LMT is a step up compared to those that use 4140, no?
My point is, if you have a budget of $2K, more than enough to buy a top of the line, Tier 1 AR, you should get the most for your money, no?
Telling people there is no difference is doing them a disservice and makes it sound like your the one that works at a gunshop.

FlyinBryan
July 20, 2009, 02:41 AM
Certainly you'd agree that the barrel material used in say a Colt or LMT is a step up compared to those that use 4140, no?

what big name companies use 4140?

hags
July 20, 2009, 02:44 AM
Stag, RRA, S&W, Olympic, probably a few more.

Oooooops, I forgot DPMS.

gga357
July 20, 2009, 02:44 AM
POF.

messerist
July 20, 2009, 07:16 AM
I own a S&W in 5.56 and have a RRA in .308 on order. The S&W is a great rifle and I have been very satisfied with the it. The RRA will not be done until November. I can't wait! I ordered it because a friend of mine has one and is very happy with it and highly recommends it.

Robert
July 20, 2009, 11:52 AM
By the way, these guys spend 6 months or more every year training across the US, I cant tell you or anyone else here about some of the training these guys do or where they do it. These unit have their own budgets, their own armories, and shoot every time they train.
Man, you guys smell that? Since when does one need a security clearance to discuss where a public police force trains? As a former State LEO, meaning we had State funding not local, any training other than the yearly requal was totally up to us. Or at best our Sgt would organize the training. Other than a few major cities in the US I can not think of any police force that can spare an entire unit for 6 months + for training each and every year. Do not try to claim I know nothing about a LE force as I served on one and Hags is correct. The majority of people I knew were in no way shape or form gun people. They knew their side arm and our shotgun well enough that I would trust them to back me up. But firearms to them were just the ones they carried for the job.

Art Eatman
July 20, 2009, 12:04 PM
Too much personal stuff. Plumb embarrassing to THR...

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