Full Auto Ownership


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MagnumDweeb
July 10, 2009, 10:41 PM
It's something that has been on my mind for some time now. I'm an NRA certified pistol instructor (I"ll go ahead and do the rifle one in December), worked for a gunsmith, do my own homebrews with a good deal of success. It looks like nowadays if you want an MG or FA you have to become and SOT3 looking to sell to law enforcement or military. There are plenty of Sig parts kits for rifles, and some Galil models, so it wouldn't be the greatest stretch when applying for an SOT3 to be interested in rebuilding the guns with the intent of marketing them to local law enforcement. A Sig 556 with FA option to the local police department perhaps.

But when I think about it all. It's just BS. I've looked at the 1934 and it wasn't entirely too bad per say. If you wanted an FA or MG you had to reigster it. Not ideal but not too bad. And from everything I've read we have the firearms industry to thank for the 1968 which banned or at the very least made foreign imports more difficult. And it looks like it later gave Clinton the ammo to start destroying Garands, 1911s, and .30 Carbines(oh yeah, every years hundreds of thousands of the guns are destroyed and salvaged for one-thousandths of their modern value) that many of us would gladly pay three or four hundred bucks for but for some reason the government just needs that two or three dollars for the steel. And then the hail mary late night bit added to the 1968 just made FA and MG ownership quite difficult and incredibly expensive.

I look at brpguns.com and wonder how they are still MGs, it looks like they just went and cranked out tons of receivers up to the last second. And if you read 'Shotgun News' you'll see the little brief case fully transferable MG so I do find myself at a loss.

Now some may think "why would you want an MG they are expensive to feed" or something else. Well how many of us would love to own a FA Thompson 1927 with a drum and once in a blue moon just unloading a drum on a target for fun. Or get a G3 that is FA capable to practice burst fire on targets. Of course we can't forget the AR-15 and emptying mags for fun. Admittedly if I ever got an FA it would only come out of the safe once or twice a year for some expensive wasteful fun.

Most of us have never seen FAs or MGs but given the idea of "death by a thousand cuts", if were Semis were to be banned, my grandkids might one day think "who needs Semi-autos, bolt-actions are perfectly fine for shooting practice, I just pick up my one rifle from the government administrated office two times a year" I realize that's a bit off the wall but a gentleman I know told me that in the fifties when his dad brought home a Thompson he couldn't wait for the day he could get one, and then 1968 hit (he was nineteen 1968 he told me) and that idea virtuallly disappeared and by the time he could really afford one 1986 came along and he just threw his hands up(his older brother got the Thompson). Even though the guy owns his own construction company, over five million dollars in real estate, a few race hourses, and number of bars and such, he can't muster the reasoning to pay bookoo bucks for one of the authentic thompsons, and the idea of getting one of the faux brpguns.com thompsons he just didn't like.

I'll admit I'd like one of the IMI UZIs going around, 9mm makes it affordable to feed and some can be found for less than 6k. Granted I'm years from getting one (still in law school, businesses and day trading are only bringing in about fifteen hundred a month), and I'll probably wrestle with the idea of why I should get one when there are so many other expenses in life. I went ahead and started an FA fund though, when all the bills are paid off ahead of time, and savings are good and growing, all my loose change and singles get stashed and whenever i have surprise earnings, half will go into it.

But I hope when I have my own house to build a few gatlings for myself(those aren't FA or MG) just for the challenge, granted I'll have a few lathes, mills, and variety of other tools.

Anyone else got thoughts on FAs, and what they would like i.e. M16s, STG 44s(they are 7.62x33s but still), DP28s, 1919s, BARs, Machine Pistols (honestly a Skorpion with a drum mag and shoulder stock would be awesome).

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Valkman
July 10, 2009, 10:50 PM
I bought a Vector Uzi a few years ago and enjoy it - lots of fun to shoot. Also have a supressor and .22 kit. Many here and in Vegas have FA and when they get together they let everyone else shoot their stuff! There's also ranges that rent FA but that's expensive.

HK G3
July 10, 2009, 11:05 PM
And then the hail mary late night bit added to the 1968 just made FA and MG ownership quite difficult and incredibly expensive.


I believe you mean the 1986 Hughes Amendment attached to the FOPA, not the 1968 GCA.

But yeah, I agree with you. I think it's ridiculous that I can't even begin to think about purchasing a F/A until I'm done with medical school and am earning a doctor's salary. Every hardworking American should be able to purchase a F/A without breaking their bank or emptying a child's college fund. Obviously a GE minigun would always be expensive, but there is no reason that a Thompson should cost tens of thousands of dollars.

Unfortunately I really doubt that the Hughes Amendment will ever be repealed. :(

Officers'Wife
July 10, 2009, 11:06 PM
I have fired full auto and was less than impressed. But, my background leans heavily to the 'one shot, one kill' mentality. Once when my Grandfather attended a Nat'l Guard open house he was allowed to handle an M-16. He studied it carefully and gave it back. He then commented that while it was lighter than the Garand he carried in France the weight of the ammunition needed to make up for the light 'ball' made the benefit a push.

In Vietnam, my uncle carried a 12 gauge shotgun. To the day he died he insisted it was a superior weapon compared to the M-16. My Dad preferred the M-16 'in country.' In the end, FA or SA is a matter of personal choice. If you can afford a FA and want to part with the money, I'm all for you having the choice to do so. The idea of the government destroying such weapons in some faith based quest for public safety is an affront to the country's founders. Nearly as much an insult as the idea honest men need to have certain weapons registered to keep them honest.

Mags
July 10, 2009, 11:08 PM
Shot full auto it was cool but it wasn't my gun or ammo. Probably wouldn't do it if I had to buy the ammo.

gondorian
July 10, 2009, 11:28 PM
^+1^ ammo costs enough as it is. If I had enough money to burn ammo on full auto I would probably just buy another gun, after all it would only take one minute of shooting ammo on full auto to use up enough money for a decent gun that lasts waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer than a minute.

kingpin008
July 11, 2009, 12:35 AM
I'm probably in the minority, but I could really care less about anything FA. I mean the firearms themselves are interesting, but I have absolutely zero interest in ever owning or firing one. I just never saw the appeal, I guess.

clarence222
July 11, 2009, 01:11 AM
I've been looking at getting into FA for sometime, and just the other day my wife said yes. I guess I'm lucky that we can afford it now just have to decide which one I want to buy. It won't be a Thompson or M16 just yet. Most likely will start with one of the cheaper models such as the M11 or something similar.

NC-Mike
July 11, 2009, 01:21 AM
I'd love to have one or seven... :)

inSight-NEO
July 11, 2009, 01:32 AM
An FA weapon would be nice, but merely as a novelty item, for me at least.

Now, if the semi-auto is severely regulated one day, well...I will have a major problem with that one.

Trebor
July 11, 2009, 02:27 AM
If you want one bad enough, you'll make it happen.

I liquidated some poor performing stocks a couple years back and got a FA Vector Uzi.

Today those stocks would be worthless, or near to it. The Uzi has gone up in value. For once, I did the right thing at the right time.

stickhauler
July 11, 2009, 02:42 AM
Many times, and it's fun as all hell, your accuracy is nil though, perhaps that's why the ammo versus kill ratio in Vietnam was so off the charts, several thousand rounds per enemy casualty. And that was with Curtis LeMay's Air Force trying really hard to bomb North Vietnam back into the stone age.

My personal favorite? The venerable M-2 .50 caliber machine gun on a tripod. It cuts down trees with ease.

AgentAdam
July 11, 2009, 02:53 AM
I would have got into the game a couple years ago when mac and uzi were going for a few grand cash but now just a couple years later even the semi-auto guns i want have gone up to 2,000-5,000 bucks like the
Steyr Aug, P90, H&K SL-8/G36,MP5,MP5-K,ect so i have allot to save up for as it is not to mention a fullsize,mini,and mirco Uzi.

To be honest most of the FA i want are unobtainable because there are only 2 or 3 if any made before 1985 like a Fullauto Glock,1911,and 3 shot Beretta 93r.

I could go for a FA Mp5,Mp5k,or AR/M16 but i cant see spending 20,000 on one. I could make more use out of a 3-shot burst really.

Bassically the Mac and Uzi are the only ones reasonably obtained but i would rather spend that on more SUPPRESSORS!

Shung
July 11, 2009, 03:01 AM
we have a different situation here.

Full autos are often cheaper than semi versions.. that is because you can own them, but you cannot shoot them unless you ask a daily permit for it, and it will cost 100$ -

Sure, they are a lot of fun, but I wouldnt shoot them more than twice a year. Too expensive, speaking about ammo.

Seeing all the full auto's owned and purchased around, I suspect everyone to shoot them discretely in private ranges, without the permit, but that is another story.. ;)

btw, a tri-burst is useless, as you can really do it with a F/A - it's quite easy actually.

I own a couple of FA, in 5.56 and 7.62x39 (M4,SIG,AK)

danprkr
July 11, 2009, 08:02 AM
Well how many of us would love to own a FA Thompson 1927 with a drum and once in a blue moon just unloading a drum on a target for fun.

I know of one guy. Just PM me, and we can talk.

MagnumDweeb
July 11, 2009, 10:37 AM
Unfortunately we can't live in Switzerland Shung, well I could probably move there but I'm too much a son of the South(of the U.S.) to ever leave(granted Montana, New Hampshire, or Vermont wouldn't be out of the question, a hell no to NYC or Chicago, and don't even think about D.C.).

I'll admit i'm interested in FAs mostly for the old Thompsons, or even the faux Thompsons at brpguns.com. I wouldn't get one of the grease guns though as I've heard the accuracy isn't squat. I thought about the MACs but for not much more(relatively speakingo f course) I could get an IMI(or Vector) UZI and I'd rather have a true Uzi than a MAC if I could help it. Granted I'd like a G3 in Full Auto.

Too bad we may never repeal the 1986 and 1968. I think a politician would have the hardest time explaining to the ignorant masses of place like Chicago and D.C., that the American people have a right to own firearms as the Founding Fathers intended and forbidding the people from owning what the government is allowed to own, flys in the face of what the founding fathers intended. Even if you don't want to own one, it just strikes me as disgusting that these laws are in place. I do understand some minor history behind it but i won't get into it because it will then risk stepping on politics and we can't have that and keep this thread open.

Dragracer_Art
July 11, 2009, 11:21 AM
FA stuff is a real hoot to own and shoot...

I got into them about 6 years ago or so.

My first was a Cobray M11/9 with a CAC9 suppressor. I payed $1450 for it as a complete package, plus $400 in transfer taxes. I played with that a few months and then bought a Colt M16 for $7800... +$200 transfer. While I was waiting for the M16 to transfer, I bought an Advanced Armament Ranger suppressor for it. That was another $575 + $200 transfer. Then a buddy swapped me a Triple-X suppressor for one of my AR15 uppers... so that was another $200 transfer tax.
I also decided to convert two of my AR15's to SBR's (short barrelled rifles)... so that was another $400 in transfer tax... my most recent was a Walther P22 and TAC65 suppressor combo for $495 +$200 transfer.

I shot the full auto stuff a good bit, but had a bunch of trouble finding places to shoot them with the giggle switch turned on. Two clubs I belonged to at the time gradually outlawed full auto on the firing range... so I was then limited to shooting them at organized machinegun shoots... which may have numbered two a year... I could have gone to a couple local indoor ranges that allowed full auto, but what fun is that ?

I eventually got tired of looking at $10,000+ tied-up in two guns that I could rarely shoot as they were intended... so I sold the Cobray subgun to a buddy of mine as a package for $2250 and the M16 was sold to a dealer in Atlanta for $8750.
I still have three suppressors and the two SBR'd AR15's... but the full auto is gone for good... I just can't justify the expense anymore. I have too many other hobbies that cost me a bunch of money... like Dragracing. :)

Mohawk
July 11, 2009, 11:30 AM
I had a very good friend come out in Jan. to Arizona from back east. He brought a truck mounted 1919A4 and an MP5 with him. We shot up the desert. The 1919 was fun but a novelty as the ammo was so expensive but I can see owning an MP5. Ammo doesn't really go that fast after the initial rush. You fire controlled bursts. It's quite a skill trying to keep 3 to 5 rounds per pull on a full body target at 35 yds. I'd sure love to own one. someday............

danbrew
July 11, 2009, 11:34 AM
MD, I'd suggest you find someplace that has a Thompson for you to shoot before you plunk down any serious money for one. I'm not familiar with the faux BRPs you speak of, but imagine they are semi versions of the Thompson. Whether semi or full auto, the Thompson is really a pretty heavy gun for what it is. I had a West Hurly Thompson a number of years ago and actually didn't shoot it too much as it is a heavy gun. Very nice, but heavy. I eventually sold it off and made a few grand on it.

A Thompson full auto, btw, fires from the open bolt. While I have many memorable moments out shooting stuff, I had finished up shooting one day with the Thompson and was getting ready to go when I found a loose .45 round in the bottom of my range bag. Rather than loading up a magazine, I thought I'd just pop it in the chamber and fire that last round real quick. I pulled back the charging handle about 3/4 of the way and dropped the round in the bbl. I was kinda thinking/not thinking that I'd let the bolt slam home and then I'd pull the trigger. Uhhhh... guess what happens when the bolt slams home? Boom. Taught me a valuable lesson as I looked down at the dead guy in the range, ha!, just kidding, the bbl was pointed down range and all that. Still, surprised me. Didn't expact it to go boom. Lesson learned? You have to work real hard to screw up all four of the rules at the same time in order to shoot somebody. I broke two of the four rules (treat every gun as if its loaded, and keep your finger off the trigger (ok, bolt in this case) until you're ready to shoot). The always keep the bbl pointed in a safe direction and the never point a gun at anything you aren't willing to shoot kept me from really screwing up that day.

Dragracer_Art
July 11, 2009, 11:45 AM
Thats the biggest thing about full auto that often gets overlooked.

Accurate, aimed fire with a full auto only works on the 1st or 2nd shot. ;)

Unless you are using a suppressed, pistol caliber subgun at close distance, there is little accuracy at any extended distance when firing in full auto.

I shot a buddy of mines HK51 several years ago. For those that are unfamiliar with it... it's identical to a 9mm MP5... only it shoots 7.62x51 (.308)

I believe the first shot would hit a man-sized target @ 25yds... but after that, you are tossing lead all over the place. The recoil and muzzle blast is pretty wicked for a little subgun. :evil:

Another example is my M11/9. I took it up to hunting camp one year to let some of the older guys have a crack at it... we stood on the porch of the cabin and shot into the mountainside. One of the old timers almost put holes in the roof of the porch when he didn't anticipate the muzzle climb. :what: He took a few steps backwards and just barely got off the trigger in time. He handed the gun back to me and said "Thanks, but no thanks..." :rolleyes:

Using the M16 as an example... I was at a MG shoot up in the mountains one time... we had stuffed animals loaded with tannerite as targets. They were positioned approx 200yds away and up on a large hillside.
I took a crack at one of them with my M16. At the time, I had it configured with a 20" barrel, so on single shots it was accurate. Since I was at a MG shoot, single-fire or semi-fire just wasn't 'gonna happen... ;)
I was shooting in very short, controlled bursts... and I'll bet it took me 10 mags full of ammo until I pegged that dang tannerite bottle... something I could have done in ONE shot thru one of my bolt rifles. :rolleyes:

MagnumDweeb
July 11, 2009, 12:37 PM
Oh don't get me wrong, for target shooting and accuracy semi and single shots are far better. I guess I'm more irked over the fact that so much garbage has to go on with acquiring an MG. MGs are so expensive because there is a limited pool that is only shrinking, in fifty years how many of those pre 86s will be left. I realize a MG will probably be a novelty that only comes out once or twice a year and I'm okay with that. It would just be fun to own one for less than 8k. Pretty much why I'll stick with the Uzis for the most part.

Does anyone have any info on brpguns.com, I'm guess they stashed a ton of receivers previous to 1986 and are now releasing them for sale. I can only guess though.

Bw2k2000
July 11, 2009, 02:10 PM
Being in the Marine Corps we get to shoot a small variety of FA weapons such as the 240g and the M2 .50 cal. I would have to say that my personal favorite is the M249 SAW because if you get your hands on a good one that won't jam every 30-40 rounds you can have some real fun. I don't think I will ever own a FA weapon but a Glock 18 would be fun.

freakshow10mm
July 11, 2009, 02:45 PM
I built a M16 for demos here. Novelty wears off quickly for the owner, but others get a kick of it.

Photo credits: Robert Emperley

myself running a mag dump (note two empties at 11:00 barely above my hat)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/NFA%20Stuff/3646514093_c61e8a01e4.jpg

fellow shooter with controlled bursts with 3 airborne empties
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/freakshow10mm/NFA%20Stuff/3646524095_76384658a3.jpg

Dragracer_Art
July 11, 2009, 04:13 PM
Ted Nugent likes to call those "Brass rainbows" :evil:

Dragracer_Art
July 12, 2009, 12:08 AM
Found a couple pics of my MG's...

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc83/yullose/m16m11.jpg
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc83/yullose/me.jpg

The 11.5" SBR...
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc83/yullose/DSC055052.jpg

Two of my three cans on my bolt rifles... (AAC Ranger & TAC65)
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc83/yullose/DSC068762.jpg

The P22/TAC65...
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc83/yullose/p22tac65.jpg

Most of my pics are kept on an external HDD to prevent viruses from ruining them... These pics were just a few I had on photobucket...

doc2rn
July 12, 2009, 02:17 AM
The only one I want is the American 180 in .22lr. Just dont get why they have to cost as much as a car!

donzi
July 12, 2009, 02:21 AM
reloading is about the only way to go for full auto these days if you can find primers powder and bullets at good prices.

heviarti
July 12, 2009, 12:32 PM
I have yet to find info about it that tells me anything... but anyone here seen the Intense Combat Muzzle Brake?

Search youtube for "M14 full auto one hand"

Gunnerpalace
July 12, 2009, 03:21 PM
To be honest most of the FA i want are unobtainable because there are only 2 or 3 if any made before 1985 like a Fullauto Glock,1911,and 3 shot Beretta 93r.

I am under the impression that there are transferable 93r's

Dillinger had a converted 1911 (obviously not legal though)

And supposedly there were a couple converted glocks in the registry.

freakshow10mm
July 12, 2009, 03:59 PM
To be honest most of the FA i want are unobtainable because there are only 2 or 3 if any made before 1985 like a Fullauto Glock,1911,and 3 shot Beretta 93r.
False. There are no transferable full auto Glocks. They were made after 1986 and are made in Austria so they are post 86 sample guns not able to be owned by an individual thanks to the GCA of 1968 which banned importation of machine guns for civilians. The Beretta R93 suffers from the same import restrictions under the GCA of 1968 so there are no fully transferable R93 in existence.

There are a few original and converted fully transferable 1911 MGs.

yokel
July 12, 2009, 04:07 PM
My hunch is that a preponderance of the folks, if they had their druthers, would opt for a full-auto Thompson or selective fire AK instead of some pathetic and ridiculous "sporterized" semi-auto knockoff.

Wouldn't we all rather have the real McCoy of undisputed quality at a reasonable price that is neither imitation nor substitute?

freakshow10mm
July 12, 2009, 04:10 PM
Thompsons don't impress me. Too heavy to be practical.

Mags
July 12, 2009, 04:15 PM
Well if I was going to get a Full Auto I guess I would go with an MP5 though I would be happy with a semi in the SP89. Reasons for the MP5 are its cheap to feed some 9mm to, it is light and accurate, and cans work very well with em. Shot my uncle's with a can, said he would seel it to me for a price of a new car and that's the "family" price.LOL

TEDDY
July 12, 2009, 04:40 PM
I used to be good with a 1928 thompson,could hold the burst to chest of target.at 25 yds.but it is a beast.best to drop the sling and step on it and lean foward.shot most MGs.sten, mac 12[380],Riesing,grease gun mp 40.
ppsh41.mg 38 and 42,bar,lewis,mg 08/15,and of course browning air craft 50/30s.and 1919 water cooled.I am good with MGs.I want a chauchat 8mm.
or lewis.and the Bar is great.I fired Jim Ballous BAR.he is awsum with a MG and can shoot a M16 like its part of him.go to one of the shoots Knob creek is the big one,never been but took in all the ones by the minute men in NH and Maine.

StealthyBlagga
July 12, 2009, 05:13 PM
For years I saw no value in FA... it seemed like just a way to waste ammo. I still don't get the whole "stand in a line and make noise" stuff like Knob Creek :scrutiny:. However, when I discovered that there is a thriving full-auto competitive scene here (Phoenix AZ), with USPSA/3-gun style matches a couple of times a month, I became motivated to build up a MAX-11 subgun. Its a great tool for competitive use (way better than M16/9, MP5 or even the venerable Uzi), and I can tell you - as a VERY experienced IPSC and 3-gun competitor - there are few things more enjoyable in life than shooting a practical subgun stage :D Here's a video and picture to whet your appetite:

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/stealthyblagga/th_RSSMGMatch31-May-2008Stage4.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/stealthyblagga/?action=view&current=RSSMGMatch31-May-2008Stage4.flv)

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/stealthyblagga/th_RSSMGMatch31-May-2008Stage2.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/stealthyblagga/?action=view&current=RSSMGMatch31-May-2008Stage2.flv)

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg34/stealthyblagga/MAX-11folderaimpoint.jpg

SaMx
July 12, 2009, 08:34 PM
personally, I'd much rather have an SBR and/or a supressor than a full auto.

mp510
July 12, 2009, 10:15 PM
There are plenty of Sig parts kits for rifles, and some Galil models, so it wouldn't be the greatest stretch when applying for an SOT3 to be interested in rebuilding the guns with the intent of marketing them to local law enforcement. A Sig 556 with FA option to the local police department perhaps.
01FFL+03SOT is for dealing
07FFL+02SOT is for making.

Gunnerpalace
July 12, 2009, 10:31 PM
There are no transferable full auto Glocks

Prove it.

2RCO
July 12, 2009, 11:23 PM
I'm pretty sure there is a transferrable 1911 conversion or two out there as well. I've seen videos of them at Full Auto Shoots... I guess they could be 02 owners though...

paintballdude902
July 13, 2009, 12:13 AM
im pretty sure there are like 3 transferable glocks in the us

really id like a few just for the cool factor like a BAR and a riesing

but the only thing i would really shoot and that i really want is a full auto .22lr not the american 180 just liek a full auto ruger 10/22 or something along that line

TheFallGuy
July 13, 2009, 12:31 AM
I would love a 1919. If I could legally build a FA receiver for it, I would. My Jeep would love to have a 1919 mounted on the back. Tragically, firing from a moving vehicle is something I have never done as we never had M2's on our trucks in Iraq. I would love to shoot a full auto from a moving truck, to hear the brass crashing on the floor.

I did fire a mini gun mounted to a UH60 once. I think for a full 30 seconds. It felt like the power of god. I could never feasibly afford it, but I would love to do it again!

mp510
July 13, 2009, 12:58 AM
im pretty sure there are like 3 transferable glocks in the us

There is no transferable Glock machine pistols. There may be a couple of transferable conversion devices for Glocks or converted Glocks that were registered.

Gunnerpalace
July 13, 2009, 01:54 AM
There is no transferable Glock machine pistols. There may be a couple of transferable conversion devices for Glocks or converted Glocks that were registered.

No 18's those we're made past 1986

The last part is the only way,of course only way to find out is if you have access to the NFRTR, unless there is a ATF agent who post here and is willing to break the privacy laws and tell us, our only other option is a owner/collector speaks up, not a lot of owners are the bragging type, (except for some of the ones that post)

freakshow10mm
July 13, 2009, 10:20 AM
Prove it.
This is fun. I love these guys that think there are a handful of G18s fully transferable commanding tens of thousands of dollars. Get a clue.

The Glock 17 was Gaston Glock's first handgun design, which was introduced in 1980. The Glock 18 shortly thereafter. The Glock 19 was introduced in 1988.

The Glock 18 was made prior to 1986. However since it was and currently is produced outside of the USA, it is subject to the importation restriction set forth by the Gun Control Act of 1968. Ever hear of a pre-86 or pre-May dealer sample? Well those are machine guns that were imported after 1968 but made before 1986. SOTs can obtain them without the demo letter required by 922(o) and keep them when their SOT expires but can only transfer them to another SOT, not to an individual because it is not fully tranfserable.

Here is the pertient information from the GCA 1968:

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—

...

(4) to any person any destructive device, machinegun (as defined in section 5845 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986), short-barreled shotgun, or short-barreled rifle, except as specifically authorized by the Attorney General consistent with public safety and necessity;

This bans the importation of MG, SBR, SBS to sell to civilians (non-SOT).

So the Glock 18, a machine gun being made before 1986 in a foreign country required to be imported to the USA is thus bound by the GCA of 1968 which states said machine gun cannot be sold to a not SOT individual. These are known as post sample machine guns.

Here's the time line for machine gun and transfering:

Fully Transferable- legal for civilian to own
Foreign manufacture and import before 1968
Domestic manufacture up to May 1986

Pre May or Pre 86 Dealer Sample- no LE demo/purchase letter required for transfer
Foreign manufacture and import between 1968 and May 1986

Post May or Post 86 Dealer Sample-LE demo/purchase required for transfer
Foreign or domestic manufacture after May 1986

Again, since the Glock 18 was introduced after the GCA of 1968 and was imported due to the manufacturing taken place in Austria, it is not legal for civilians to own. There are no fully transferable (domestic manufacture before 1986 or foreign import before 1968) Glock 18 machine pistols in existence. There are no prototypes that were assembled in the USA prior to 1986. This is fact. If you don't accept it, that's your deal.

Since I stated my case, I'd like to see your evidence of G18s in existence in civilian hands that are fully transferable currently on a Form 4.:scrutiny:

NC-Mike
July 13, 2009, 10:46 AM
What are all the Glock 18 C videos on YouTube?

I don't know, I'm really asking, there seem to be a lot of full auto Glocks out there.


http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=glock+18&search_type=&aq=f

freakshow10mm
July 13, 2009, 10:50 AM
Those are either Class 3 SOTs with samples, Class 2 SOTs with converted guns, foreign civilians in other countries, or illegally converted guns in the US. Most of them are SOTs in the US.

Flame Red
July 13, 2009, 12:10 PM
All I can say is I smile ear to ear each time I do a full mag dump.

freakshow10mm
July 13, 2009, 12:11 PM
That's called the 30rd Grin.

BTR
July 13, 2009, 02:24 PM
The 1986 MG ban is wretched unconstitutional nonsense. I hope I live long enough to see it repealed.

freakshow10mm
July 13, 2009, 02:46 PM
Both the NFA and GCA are unconstitutional. I'd like to see them both gone.

Zoogster
July 13, 2009, 03:09 PM
Both the NFA and GCA are unconstitutional. I'd like to see them both gone.

Considering the originaly purpose of the 2nd Amendment as stated in numerous letters and statements by America's founders was as a check against tyranny IE as a balance against LEO and Military of the government they were creating, such restrictions are beyond unconstitutional.

When the people cannot even possess the standard arm of the infantry of the armed services, the intended purpose of the 2nd is well beyond infringement.


I personaly simply enjoy shooting recreationaly and the ability to defend myself or others against criminals who will be armed. But I know without a doubt that was not the reason for the 2nd Amendment.

As stated By Jefferson, Madison, and many others multiple times, the purpose of the 2nd was to allow the people to rise up against tyranny, including a standing army (Federal LEO and the military) if necessary. In case the government they were creating became tyranical as thier former government had (the government of England.)

Tench Coxe sums it up well:

Whereas civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.

Civil Rulers, ie politicians may not have thier loyalty in the interests of the people, and may attempt to tyrannize.
Military forces which must be raised (they were also the federal level LEO of the day, so it includes both LEO and the military) to defend the country may simply impose martial law, take over government, or otherwise tyrannize or act on the orders of tyrants. As they have since before Julius Caesar conquered the Roman Republic with such a force.
The people are confirmed by the 2nd Amendment to keep arms for resistance.

More Tenche Coxe:

The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every terrible implement of the soldier are the birthright of Americans. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but where, I trust in God, it will always remain, in the hands of the people.

The intent was that the people, who as one are the militia of the United States, always are more powerful than any army which can be used against them. Or "tremendous and irresistable" compared to the military and LEO.

That was the intent and purpose of the 2nd, whether it became outdated in light of modernized instruments of war is a whole different argument. It is part of the Constitution, was the intent of the Constitution, and whether or not it has anything to do with why you choose to own arms it is the reason your ability to own them is protected under the Constitution.

A select fire AR is the lowliest weapon on the battlefield, yet even that is forbidden to the peasants.

Gunnerpalace
July 13, 2009, 03:57 PM
handful of G18s

I never said G18's,

And I do know about the import clause,

I'm saying 17's that were converted.

30mag
July 13, 2009, 04:08 PM
I would want a FA in .22LR.
That would be the funnest thing.
Maybe a hi-cap pistol? Or just a converted 10-22.

If I had to pick an NFA weapon, I'd go with a SBS, or an SBR.

And I mean an REAL SBR. Like a sawn off bolt-action .300 mag. A camp gun for hogs.

rfurtkamp
July 14, 2009, 06:20 AM
The funniest thing in my experience is the ubiquitous 'can't hit anything with FA' from folks who just shot one a few times at the range etc.

It's like saying that magically because you can shoot a handgun slowfire that you can suddenly become a proficient defensive shooter without practice.

And yeah, if you want NFA anything (machinegun, suppressor, etc.) you can get it legally if you want it bad enough - including moving, knowing your laws, saving money, etc.

It only hurts to buy once.

Domina
August 26, 2009, 01:50 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but
922(o) part 2A allows for transfer of machineguns by "a State, or a department, agency, or political subdividsion thereof".

Has this not been tested legally by having a local "political subdivision" of a State, or a State itself transfering machineguns to it's citizens? Seems like it ought to be tried. Need to rally a big pile of bucks and bollocks first though I suppose.

Seems like an ideal way for a state to enhance it's security AND make up a budget deficit.

CoRoMo
August 26, 2009, 02:28 PM
freakshow...

Can't guys like you, Zak Smith's company, Gemtech, etc. convert a Glock to FA for testing?

Are you guys allowed to use your FAs for things like renting them out at Knob Creek type events?

TEDDY
August 26, 2009, 02:38 PM
I like the big ones[rifle caliber]I have shot most.hotckiss 8 mm,brownings,BAR
thompson,grease gun,reising.maxim MG 34/42 and lewis.and had a hotchkiss mK 1 in 303.the thompson is heavy,the brownings are good,the german were good.best I like is the lewis and reising. I can shoot them acurately.on subs drop the rear sling and step on it.the heavys give them short taps the lewis and BAR I can shoot single,also the hotchkiss.the grease gun is accurate if you know how to shoot it.I had access to thompson whenever I wanted it.and shot the browning any chance I got when we flew patrol or practice hops.the kingfisher was great.
the 68 law was not because of manufacturers it was senator Dodds after kennedy was shot.and the 34 was due to the gangs using thompsons,and BARS.after they were killed there really was no need for the law.
:rolleyes::uhoh:

ChCx2744
August 26, 2009, 04:48 PM
I wouldn't mind owning a FA SBR (either AR or AK variant) with a suppressor. :)

Zak Smith
August 26, 2009, 09:55 PM
Hi,

A friend of mine runs a machinegun rental business. He's one of the guys you can rent a mags-worth of time on an M16 at the organized (or private) machinegun shoots. He holds a regular Type 1 FFL with a Class 3 SOT. My company has a Type 7 FFL with a Class 2 SOT. I believe we can do whatever a 1/3 can do, but I haven't looked into it as it's outside our business model.

CleverNickname
August 27, 2009, 10:16 AM
Yes, an 07/02 can do anything an 01/03 can, in addition to manufacturing.

CoRoMo
August 27, 2009, 10:45 AM
Thanks Zak.

I've been wondering about that. I didn't know if you guys were allowed to use your FAs for more than a few narrow purposes. Making money off of them via rental would be lucrative if you had the time (and desire) to put toward it. It seems like the ATF would be all too eager to restrict people from getting the 7/2 just to build FA toys to rent out under the guise of product R&D.

What stops a guy from becoming a title II manuf. just to get into the rental business.
Here's an even sillier thought: Couldn't freakshow10mm build a select fire machine pistol for R&D, but then go on to use that handgun for personal use, as his EDC?

freakshow10mm
August 27, 2009, 11:50 AM
My company is also an 07/02. We make ammunition and NFA weapons including suppressors, AOWs, and automatic weapons ranging from pistol conversions, M16 clones, and belt fed machine guns.

I can make a machine gun for any lawful purpose. I can use them for sale to LE and government, I can rent time with them for demo to range customers, I can use them for R&D for other products such as my ammunition and suppressors. The only thing I can't do is sell it to a non SOT or LE/gov customer.

I cannot use a post 86 machine gun for personal use. My MI CPL does not cover any weapon that is logged in my FFL bound book. Any machine gun my company makes is a Post 86 and is not transferable to an individual. All weapons in business inventory are to be transported in compliance with the FOPA of 1986, ie unloaded in a case. I cannot have a loaded weapon from business inventory covered under my CPL.

Currently my company is manufacturing and testing a conversion for the Glock pistol for full auto fire, which will be available for sale to SOTs and LE. Local demonstrations are always available.

An 07/02 can deal in NFA, manufacture in NFA, and very limited importation of NFA. Like Mr Smith, the NFA dealings are out of the scope of our business model as well. We don't stock transferable NFA weapons. If a local retail client would like to purchase a transferable NFA weapon, we can facilitate the transfer for a small fee. That is as close as we get to dealing in NFA. We are a manufacturer, we make stuff. There are currently 4 SOTs in the Upper Peninsula of MI. There's a 01/03 in Baraga County, Iron Mountain, and out east by Sault St Marie. My company is the first and only Class 2 manufacturer in the UP.

The practical uses for a machine pistol are very limited if at all present. For EDC by a civilian I see no applications. Of the full auto Glocks and SIGs I've made for LE clients, they are being used in rural areas where backup is 45 minutes a way at 100 miles an hour. It's seen as an all out hail mary tool when you need absolute maximum firepower when a rifle is not right there to grab.

Despite the widespread issue of fully automatic rifles for the military, I have yet to speak with a soldier issued an M4 or M16 that ever used the fun switch in actual combat. Belt fed weapons are made to lay down cover fire to allow riflemen to advance on the target and kill him. Of all the Youtube videos depicting combat troops during fire fights, notice how very few if not a single one of them fires a burst of full auto fire. Controlled, aimed single rounds.

CoRoMo
August 27, 2009, 12:08 PM
That's what I wanted to know. Thanks.

I wonder if there are rental businesses who got there by going this route rather than tracking down and buying the expensive and limited pre '86 stuff. Seems only sensible. If a guy thought he could make a living in rentals, and enjoyed that type of thing, it'd be far cheaper to get started through a 7/2.

As far as practicality of FA, I think the LE use you described, applies equally to non-LEO. It would be as practical/useful to that rural LEO as it would to a rural civi.

Zak Smith
August 27, 2009, 12:11 PM
I wonder if there are rental businesses who got there by going this route rather than tracking down and buying the expensive and limited pre '86 stuff. Seems only sensible. If a guy thought he could make a living in rentals, and enjoyed that type of thing, it'd be far cheaper to get started through a 7/2.
Well, most of my friend's inventory is post-86 dealer samples. Way cheaper than transferable and easier than manufacturing them yourself, providing you can get the approproate LE demo letters.

-z

CoRoMo
August 27, 2009, 12:28 PM
This is where I'm beginning to get lost then. Your friend's company can purchase post '86 dealer samples? I didn't realize that was a possibility, but it makes sense. If he can buy/sell them to LE, he can rent them out if he wants. Sorta like a type 1 FFL renting out his inventory, to shoot in his indoor range like Rocky Mtn. Shooters Supply does. Makes sense. I guess he could take home a rifle, load 'er up and keep it under his bed too?

Zak Smith
August 27, 2009, 12:31 PM
That's kind of the point of the "sample" part of post 86 dealer samples. If LE or a gov't agency wants to demo/evaluate one, some Class 2/3 dealer has to be able to acquire one.

freakshow10mm
August 27, 2009, 01:24 PM
Difference between a Class 2 and Class 3 is a Class 3 needs a demo letter and permission to obtain the weapon. A Class 2 can just make one at will, file a Form 2 and be done with it. If I wanted to I can make and register an M16 machine gun in less than 15 minutes.

A Class 3 would have to get a LE agency to type up a demo request on letterhead, submit it to the Class 3, then the SOT would send that to a 02 or 03 along with the copy of the demo letter which would be sent to the NFA branch in WV to be approved. Then sent back to the demoing Class 3 along with the weapon so they can do a demo.

A Class 2 can get a phone call, spin up the Bridgeport for 5 minutes, spend 5 minutes refinishing the receiver and check the timing, engrave it, then 5 minutes to fill and fax the Form 2 to the ATF.

More expensive to be a Class 2 (ITAR and insurance) than a Class 3 but you can do everything a type 01 and 06 FFL can do plus make firearms and pay the SOT to make and deal in NFA. Only things left out is routine importation, destructive devices, and armor piercing ammo. One license covers 95% of all firearms activities.

Zak Smith
August 27, 2009, 01:36 PM
But if a Class 2 SOT wants to buy a dealer sample, they still need a demo letter.

LoneStarWings
August 27, 2009, 03:54 PM
The 1986 hughes amendment is horse dung and I can't figure out why reagan and the NRA felt it necessary to acquiesce to the gun control lobby and give in on MG manufacture in exchange for a few other changes. :cuss:

CoRoMo
August 27, 2009, 04:30 PM
My original question was focused on the least expensive/resistive way for a guy to get into a small lot of FA guns to produce income in the rental market. I was surprised to learn that, that type of quest wouldn't be bound to pre '86 hardware, but it just seems like the ATF wouldn't just let this happen if the license/SOT is supposed to be couched for guys like you two.

I know a few guys that talk like they'd drop what they were doing, if they could get into this type of business, but it's all probably talk. For guys that would seriously delve into FA renting, it seems like there is little reason not to, except for initiative.

Zak Smith
August 27, 2009, 04:44 PM
Q. How do you make a small fortune in the gun industry?

A. Start with a big one.

CoRoMo
August 27, 2009, 04:44 PM
Well said.

Tommygunn
August 27, 2009, 05:58 PM
The 1986 hughes amendment is horse dung and I can't figure out why reagan and the NRA felt it necessary to acquiesce to the gun control lobby and give in on MG manufacture in exchange for a few other changes.

If I recall correctly the section that closed the NFA registry (preventing people from buying new FA guns) was added on literally at the 11th hour -- overnight -- in an underhanded way of further eroding the Constitution (note: the last is editorial content) and was thus snuck by into law. Yes, Reagan signed it.
Nobody's perfect ..... ...... ....

NC-Mike
August 28, 2009, 08:36 AM
With the NRA's blessing, IIRC.

danbrew
August 28, 2009, 09:24 AM
If he can buy/sell them to LE, he can rent them out if he wants

Uh, maybe. While some do it, it's a hotly contested debate whether this is a permitted use of a post 86 sales sample. I'd hate to plan an initiative around this assumption, make loads of investments, and then find out that ATF comes down on all the rental places.

Unless you were a Class II, you'd need post-sample LE letters for each item. Even if you were a Class II, the average guy probably doesn't have the skills to convert anything other than an AK or an M16 or so.

CoRoMo
August 28, 2009, 09:45 AM
Dang those unskilled average guys! They'll never learn.:rolleyes:

freakshow10mm
August 28, 2009, 11:35 AM
But if a Class 2 SOT wants to buy a dealer sample, they still need a demo letter.
Yes, but why would they need to buy one? Just make it.

While some do it, it's a hotly contested debate whether this is a permitted use of a post 86 sales sample.
Don't know it's hotly contested. There is no law preventing it, there is no transfer being taken place.

I'd hate to plan an initiative around this assumption, make loads of investments, and then find out that ATF comes down on all the rental places.
So buy pre 86 samples. A bit more than post 86, but less than transferable.

Even if you were a Class II, the average guy probably doesn't have the skills to convert anything other than an AK or an M16 or so.
Most guns are fairly easy to convert. H&K guns (overrated IMO) are a bitch if you work on the trigger packs, but it can be done. Some require more machining than others. It's relatively simple. Spend $2-3 grand on a mill and lathe, get a cash machinist to do stuff on the side for you if you can't yourself.

If you go this route, I suggest being a Class 2. You can still do the rental gig, but as a Class 2 you can build SBR and SBS, which those two (plus suppressors) are the top NFA weapons collectors buy. I'm starting another location for my company in my homestate of Wisconsin and get my 07/02 there too. In WI, as a Class 2 I can make SBR and SBS. In MI I can't. Everything else will be in Upper Michigan.

danbrew
August 28, 2009, 03:27 PM
"hotly contested"

means just that. There was no law preventing the Akins Acclerator either. Nor some of the work that Len Savage did. But how much money did each of them spend fighting ATF?

thanks, but no thanks. I predict an "incident" with a full auto that will make the whole issue of rentals a moot point. I'm surprised that the Westfield Sportsmen's Club incident didn't result in national legistlation. It's only a matter of time, imho. And of course the folks connected with that incident have spent tons of dollars defending themselves.

TooTaxed
August 28, 2009, 04:49 PM
Over my 72 years I've fired a lot of full auto...civilian as well as military. Owned a Japanese Model 96 LMG as a kid on Okinawa, a Sten Mk II in the 1960s, in Vietnam personally owned a MAT 49 SMG (excellent, IMHO the best French gun ever made), AK-47, and Browning A-4 tripod-mount gun...have fired UZIs, MACs, and lots of others. While in Special Forces fired FA weapons from half a dozen countries in research to determine the best weapon for house-to-house street fighting. (Interestingly, the 12-ga shotgun firing #1 buck shot...NOT 00 or 0 shells!...was the clear winner over the FA!:what:)

Three FA guns stand out in my memories...the Jap M-96 LMG, the Sterling SMG (the only SMG I've found to be controllable with one hand), and the M-16 with 3-shot burst capability. If I were to have one now, I'd choose the M-16 in A4 carbine configuration with 3-round burst capability.

freakshow10mm
August 28, 2009, 04:55 PM
Interestingly, the 12-ga shotgun firing #1 buck shot..
The terminal performance of the #1 buckshot leads me to wonder why people still use OO buck.

FROGO207
August 28, 2009, 06:48 PM
Hi all. I own a MP 40 and a M 10 in 45 ACP. Both are fun to shoot in the beginning but as the rounds add up-:what: really expensive. All my friends want to tear up the hillside behind my house with it but the light bulb came on one day when it only took about half an hour to fill and empty about 1/2 a five gallon bucket of 45 hardball. Now I will take one out for fun with friends and to practice keeping accurate.:cool: Lots of cash invested for what are almost safe queens.:scrutiny: If I get rid of them the fear is that someday a common citizen will not be able to own a SMG or MG legally. I will think more about it after I reload that latest five gallon bucket of 9 MM brass (primers willing) and use my bullet hose to tear up the hillside one more time!:evil:

FROGO207
August 28, 2009, 06:51 PM
Freakshow10MM
I think it is the BIG holes when they do connect with the target.:D:D

TooTaxed
August 28, 2009, 07:45 PM
Re Post #80 above:

I think I should elaborate a bit why the shotgun with #1 buck won out over the FA guns for street fighting.

Fairly simple...the 12-ga #1 buck shells have 16 ea 30-cal balls, while the 00 buck has only 9 large balls. When firing across a street, I could take out an entire door or window with the fairly dense pattern of the #1s...equivalent of most of a SMG magazine...but instantaneous. The larger buckshot had too few pellets to ensure a hit...too much spread. We found a single #1 shell to be roughly the effective equivalent of three 00 buck shells.

Also, the SMG and rifle rounds had too much penetration through light walls...likely to result in civilian casualties. It's important to take out the "bad guys"...but no one else. Makes you very unpopular with the citizenry...they don't like having their women and children damaged...:eek:

freakshow10mm
August 28, 2009, 07:56 PM
That and the IWBA endorses and recommends #1 buckshot as the superior buckshot size for an antipersonnel shotgun.

TooTaxed
August 28, 2009, 08:38 PM
FREAKSHOW, I hope they did that partially on the basis of our 1960's tests! Our findings surprised quite a few people at the time. 'Way back then the Army didn't even have #1 buck in their issue stocks...00 buck was it!

freakshow10mm
August 28, 2009, 08:45 PM
That's been ongoing since the IWBA was created. My company is the only ammunition manufacturer to offer a #1 buckshot load in the 20ga.

AmEngRifles
September 3, 2009, 07:54 PM
In the spirit of the original post, and the ponderings of FA ownership, here are my thoughts.

They are beyond my financial ability at this time, especially in the downturn days. Pretty to look at and ponder, but unobtainable right now.

Kind of like owning a really boss muscle car. When we were younger, who would have thought these cars would become so expensive and collectible? Lots of money now. Expensive to operate. I can't afford them. So I see them at shows, in museums and on television and relive the glory days. At 8 to 10 mpg, who would really be able to operate one as a daily driver anymore? Driving an old Datsun 280 ZX Turbo gets me close, and without breaking the bank. :-)

Back to guns. In that vacuum, a SA rifle or shotgun seems to get me pretty close for a LOT less money. The SA rate of fire conserves ammo sufficiently, that I can afford a good number of practice sessions each year. They are the "ALMOST" guns, like my 1981 Turbo ZX. They have the look and some of the performance, but in the working class financial realm.

I have always looked at guns, magazines, ammo as a financial equation. I am constantly running the numbers on ammo prices, magazine prices (based on round count to cost) and rifle prices, (what is the most economical bullet thrower in a certain caliber?) that work within my budget. Most FA just have no real correlation with their cost anymore. They are out of the "usable" commodity market and into the "financial investment" market. If I ever bought one, it would sit in a safe all the time. The only way I would shoot it would be if we were at war within US borders.

I would like to see them return to current manufacture and sale for civilian ownership. They may still require a register, but having them available for reasonable prices would be a welcome addition to the firearms fraternity. Plus, all those historical surplus weapons that have been destroyed just make me melancholic. Oh to have Bren guns for less than a grand! Happy Days have passed.

JonRosko
September 13, 2009, 12:57 PM
The full auto market is an example of artificial scarcity dependent upon the whims of our lawmakers and lobbyists. There are negligible differences between a semi and full auto weapon of the same type, besides for the fact you can hold down the trigger for one and not the other. Many antiques, classic cars, etc. are examples of markets which contain true scarcity for their nostalgic and historical values, and are not made scarce by rules and regulations based on performance characteristics.

For any FA owners: How would you feel if the government lifted the ban on fully automatic weapons and the money you invested in them plummeted? Would you be happy that you can buy more FA guns cheaper, or sad that the ones you have won't be worth as much?

freakshow10mm
September 13, 2009, 01:12 PM
I would love for my full auto collection to be worthless compared to the price paid. It isn't about money, it's about freedom.

If 922 (o) was stricken tomorrow, I'd be pumping out M16s for $600 shipped.

ThrottleJockey72
September 13, 2009, 01:23 PM
While I love the idea, and feel that the 2A actually means we should all be able to own ANY weapon that is avail. to the military, I don't think I want one. FA is fun, but VERY expensive. By expensive, I don't mean the cost of the gun either, I mean the cost of the ammo. Besides, who can carry enough ammo on their person to make FA a viable tactic in a battle scenario? Perhaps I could get on board with a "burst" type weapon that would fire 3 rounds at a time, but FA just hasn't much of a place in reality any more with the exception of belt fed deck mounted types of course. Bump firing can be equally fun from time to time, especially once you get good enough to do it from the shoulder:)

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