Help with advice on a hunting rifle cartridge


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jvberryjr
July 11, 2009, 10:21 PM
I am a man of limited means, so I need to be judicious when deciding to purchase a firearm. Right now my collection has a glaring hole; a high powered (read hunting) rifle. I would appreciate input on what cartidge may be the best all around for the one hunting rifle I would like to get. My criteria are:


Ammunition must be affordable and easy to find
Rifle chambered for the round must be affordable and easy to find
Appropriate for 90% of the game in North America -I already have rimfire and .223, so varmints are covered
Manageable recoil
Accurate


Please give reasons for your recommendations. Thank you very much.

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R.W.Dale
July 11, 2009, 10:26 PM
Really your criteria makes for a very short list
30-06
.308
270

I would say the 06 fits all your requirments a tad better than the other two.

dakotasin
July 11, 2009, 10:29 PM
remington 700 cdl in 308.
it fits every piece of your criteria.

scope it w/ a quality scope in the $250 - $400 price range, 1.25" leather sling, and you will never be unequipped.

chevysquid
July 11, 2009, 10:34 PM
I'd pick up a 30-06. You will be covered for deer, bear, elk, etc. Another option if you aren't going to be hunting in the wide open is a 30-30. Get a Marlin 336 or a Winchester 94. They are great for the deep woods.

oneounceload
July 11, 2009, 10:37 PM
Personally, I like the 7mm mag over the 270 and 30-06. I have found IME, that it shoots flatter at longer distances - which is helpful if you're hunting mule deer out West. I have an older 700BDL, with a 160 gr handload, I would not feel uncomfortable going after anything in NA except for the biggest of bears

BMF500
July 11, 2009, 10:39 PM
You can get a Weatherby Synthetic Vanguard in your choice of about 10 cal. equiped with a Bushell Banner 3-9x40, w/ hard case and sling for about $559. Or just the rifle for about $399. I would go with .308 for your needs. Hear is the link for the package deal. Checkem out. And I hope you enjoy what ever you decide on.

http://www.weatherby.com/product/rifles/vanguard/synthetic_package

1858
July 11, 2009, 10:44 PM
I currently have "hunting" rifles in the following calibers ...

7mm-08
.308 Win
.300 WSM
.300 Win Mag

... and I'll be adding a .30-06 to that list in a couple of weeks. If I didn't have a hunting rifle suitable "for 90% of game in North America", basically the situation that you're in, then the choice would be easy. I'd order the following rifle in .30-06 ... a Savage Weather Warrior.

http://www.savagearms.com/116fcss.htm

It comes in stainless steel with the AccuTrigger, AccuStock and detachable four-round magazine. At under $600 it's hard to beat. I will say that it's not as well-finished as a Remington 700, but it has some very nice features that make it well worth the entry fee. I recently bought a Weather Warrior in 7mm-08 and I'm very impressed with it.

As krochus pointed out, it meets all of your criteria. I'm ordering one because I feel that I should have a .30-06 in my collection. I certainly don't need it given my other rifles, but I figure that the prices aren't going to go down in my lifetime so I may as well buy it now rather than put it off.

:)

Art Eatman
July 11, 2009, 10:46 PM
Probably a good used Savage or a Mark 10 Mauser is somewhere near the best deal for the money. Unless you're figuring on serious long-range shooting at deer/antelope/elk, odds are that any mid-priced fixed 4X scope will do. I've noticed that my 3x9 is only on 9X when I'm sighting in; when I'm actually hunting it's set on 3X.

Cartridge? Odds are that a .308 will do just as good as anything else you try.

AKElroy
July 11, 2009, 10:50 PM
If you are looking for a bolt gun, +1 on the Remington combo, I would add the budget priced Savage 110 and Marlin bolt combo's as you can find them between $300-$400. +1 also on the .308; near .30-06 performance in a short action. Also readily available & enough pop for the lower 48. If you are VERY budget conscious, I picked this up yesterday for my son for $279.00 w/ the Simmons 3X9. This one is a .243, but Harrington & Richardson also chambers all of the .308 family and .30-06 family of cartriges. Very accurate, nicely made, single shot.

jmr40
July 11, 2009, 10:52 PM
Affordable will have different meanings to different people. Some rifles I like and approximate prices are:

Marlin XL7, around $320, New rifle on the market, but has had a lot of good things said about them.

Weatherby Vanguard $390, Probably the best buy in my opinion, but heavier than I like as a hunting rifle.

Tikka T-3 about $500, maybe the most accuracy for the money.

Savage/Stevens, between $320-$600 depending on the model and finish. Not a personal favorite, but they work and have a good reputation for accuracy.

Remington 700, from the mid $400's to $1,000+. Solid rifles.

Ruger Hawkeye, around $650. My personal favorite for the price. Rugged and dependable. They don't have the reputation for accuracy that some others have, but I have never shot one that would not put 3 shots into 1" at 100 yards with a load it liked.

Most of my rifles were purchased used and you can get a lot more gun for your money that way. There are 2 rifles I would specifically stay away from. The Mossberg, and the Remington 770/710 series. They sell for cheap, but you get what you pay for. For just a little bit more you can get a much better rifle.

Hard to beat 30-06, 270, or 308.

1858
July 11, 2009, 10:56 PM
By the way, if you buy a Savage in .30-06 or .308, you could buy barrels in .25-06 or 7mm-08 and swap them out in no time at all. I'm not an expert on Savage rifles by any means, but from what I've read on this forum, this is easy to do with a wrench for the barrel nut and a headspace gauge. In other words, two rifles for almost the price of one. Just a thought.

:)

tactikel
July 11, 2009, 11:35 PM
You can't go wrong with .30-06, .270, or .308. If you are recoil sensitive consider a .243 or .30-30 excepting elk and great bear they should fill your needs, and ammo is common.
The mentioned Marlin and Savage are fine rifles for the money.

Uncle Mike
July 11, 2009, 11:56 PM
One of the very best rifles manufactured today... the Savage 116/16 Weather Warrior and the Savage 114/14 Classic or American Classic.

Excellent out of the box accuracy and very affordable. The 116/16 Weather Warrior is Stainless Steel with the most excellent Accustock and the Accutrigger, the 114/14 is carbon steel, blued in either matte or polished with a walnut stock featuring a black forend tip and the Accutrigger.

The three digit designation(116 or 114) is assigned to Savages 'long' action, the two digit designation(16 or 14) is assigned to Savages 'short' action rifle.

The 30-06 is of course, the quintessential rifle round... hard hitting without being 'over' zealous, flat enough to git er' done and available everywhere.

I just took delivery of a Custom Shop Savage 116, 30-06, match chamber, 24" barrel enjoying a standard sporter taper to keep the weight to a minimum, Accustock and Trigger, it weighs 6.7 lb, naked.

Having a b*t*h of a time getting that scope bolted to it, but a man has to have something to keep him off the streets.

:D

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 12, 2009, 12:30 AM
With those criteria:

First Choice: .30-30 Winchester
Second Choice: .270 Winchester
Third Choice: .30-'06 Springfield
Fourth Choice: .308 Winchester
Fifth Choice: .25-'06 Remington

altez
July 12, 2009, 12:33 AM
Any of these will work
.30-06
.308
.270
.30-30 (increased distance with LeverEvolution)

Maverick223
July 12, 2009, 12:54 AM
A few questions first...What cartridges do find have a bad recoil? Where will you primarily be hunting (relative location, distances, terrain)? What is your budget? Is the weight of the rifle an important consideration?

Without knowing the above, I would say that a .30-30, .270, or a .30-06 would be best. :)

Right now my collection has a glaring hole
Also, wanted to add that the longer you lurk here the more holes you will come to see. Hanging out here is like taking a shark-skin suit through a field of cucaburrs. :neener:

bpl
July 12, 2009, 01:09 AM
I would agree with 30-06, .308 or .270.

natman
July 12, 2009, 04:21 AM
30-06 hands down. It will be a bit better on BIG game than 270 or 308 and just as good on deer.

Dallas Jack
July 12, 2009, 06:06 AM
When I answered that question for myself I ended up with a Weatherby Vanguard .243 for $399. Used it this season to take a nice doe.
Dallas Jack

scythefwd
July 12, 2009, 06:25 AM
Mosin Nagant. It has about the same power as a 30-06, will run you less than 200 for the rifle, and you can get softpoint ammo for it for about 20 dollars a box online.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=529434 - link to ammo.

With iron sights, you should be good out to 200y with a MN in good condition.

cyclopsshooter
July 12, 2009, 07:08 AM
Art Eatman hit the nail on the head about optics

i use 30-30 / 30-06 / 270

jvberryjr
July 12, 2009, 08:00 AM
Wow! Great advice you all. Thank you very much!!

elktrout
July 12, 2009, 10:08 AM
+1 on Krochus' reply

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 12, 2009, 11:17 AM
Let me reiterate that .30-30 Winchester is by far the cheapest "full-powered" hunting round, when buying boxes of loaded factory ammo, which is the main criteria for the OP (cost), among those that suit the power requirement he's after. The rifles that shoot this round are also extremely economical, particularly used.

.30-06 and .270 are the "2nd tier" in low cost in factory ammo, and among those, the .270 has less recoil. But the .30-30 wins this race easily, with the criteria given - .270 being a distant 2nd place. IMO.

jpwilly
July 12, 2009, 01:18 PM
As far as I'm concerned this question was answered by post #2. There are reasons the 30-06 is considered the best all around cartridge for North America.

As for costs are concern I don't see a real practical difference between shooting 30-30 vs 30-06 or .270 etc. Used rifles can be had for $150. Ammo is only a couple bucks more per box than 30-30. There's just no practical difference that's going to hurt the wallet.

52grain
July 12, 2009, 01:38 PM
I agree with .308, 30-06, and .270. You can compare ammo prices and availablity on ableammo.com.

There are several guns out there that would all be good choices in these calibers. Choose the one that is the most comfortable to carry and shoot and fits in your budget.

Al Thompson
July 12, 2009, 01:40 PM
As many have said before - Savage or Vanguard .30-06. :)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 12, 2009, 01:41 PM
As far as I'm concerned this question was answered by post #2. There are reasons the 30-06 is considered the best all around cartridge for North America.

Except that it's more expensive than .30-30, and ammo expense seems to be the primary criterion here. In addition, the .30-30 meets the manageable recoil requirement quite a bit better than .30-06. So the question wasn't answered until my posts, #14 and #24. IMO. :p

Here, take a look:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=277034

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=596951

You're saving $4.00 with every box of shells. That's important in light of:

I am a man of limited means, so I need to be judicious when deciding to purchase a firearm

Recoil:

.30-30 Energy / Velocity: 10.6 / 9.5
.30-06 Energy / Velocity: 17.6 / 11.9

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

R.W.Dale
July 12, 2009, 03:45 PM
Except that it's more expensive than .30-30, and ammo expense seems to be the primary criterion here. In addition, the .30-30 meets the manageable recoil requirement quite a bit better than .30-06. So the question wasn't answered until my posts, #14 and #24. IMO. :p

Here, take a look:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=277034

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=596951

You're saving $4.00 with every box of shells. That's important in light of:


Recoil:

.30-30 Energy / Velocity: 10.6 / 9.5
.30-06 Energy / Velocity: 17.6 / 11.9

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

in which wouldn't something chambered for 7.62x39 make even more sense. Then you can save something like $8 to $10 per box over even 30-30 for what basically amounts to no sacrifices in performance.

And please don't go on the whole 30-30 is much closer to 300wby than it is 7.62x39 spiel

For me neither 30-30 or x39 fits the OP's criteria with the 90% of NA game requirement. Not that both cartridges won't fill the bill terminally but many game species live in terrain ill suited to making good hits with these two mid powered rounds. If concerned for 90% of NA game don't you think it would be wize to hedge your bets with a rifle suited to 90% of North Amarica's terrain. After all it's easy to make a 150yd shot wit a 400yd rifle, the opposite not so much

when you get right down to it 30-30 is simply a mid powered Victorian era assault rifle round for that era's assault rifle

1858
July 12, 2009, 04:04 PM
As far as I'm concerned this question was answered by post #2.

And how do you figure that? The OP also asked that the ...

"Rifle chambered for the round must be affordable and easy to find"

Where in the second post does krochus recommend an affordable and easy to find rifle?

:)

BMF500
July 12, 2009, 04:04 PM
Uhhh....how did a 300wby enter the conversation? That is hella powerful and hella expensive.

R.W.Dale
July 12, 2009, 04:06 PM
And how do you figure that? The OP also asked that the ...

"Rifle chambered for the round must be affordable and easy to find"

Where in the second post does krochus recommend an affordable and easy to find rifle?

:)


That's the easy part
Stevens 200 or Marlin xl7

Two rifles that by all accounts including mine give up nothing to hunting rifles costing 3X as much aside from aesthetics. Which is leading me to another thread I've been contemplating.

1858
July 12, 2009, 04:11 PM
That's the easy part
Stevens 200 or Marlin xl7 ... Two rifles that by all accounts including mine give up nothing to hunting rifles costing 3X as much aside from asthetics

HA! If you'd added that to the end of your first post #2, THEN jpwilly would have a point and we could have stopped there. Although I'm not familiar with either rifle mentioned, I completely agree with the sentiment that the practical difference between a $300 rifle and a $2000 hunting rifle is oftentimes purely aesthetic.

:)

Arkel23
July 12, 2009, 04:39 PM
7mm rem mag
.300 win mag
30-06. For buffalo I'd go with the larger magnums, so really what I'm saying is to get the 7mm rem mag or the .300 win mag.

TexasPatriot.308
July 12, 2009, 05:49 PM
Stevens 200, will leave money left over for a good lower end Leupold or Bushnell Elite 3200 or so, helluva setup for less than $600, I would suggest a caliber like .308, lots of selection of bullets, proven over and over, you can hunt anything in North America with it.

lefteyedom
July 13, 2009, 05:14 AM
BUY A USED 270 WITH A 3X9 SCOPE ON IT. SWING BY WALMART ON THE WAY HOME A PICK UP A COUPLE BOX OF WHAT EVER 270 AMMO IS ON SELL.

Or a 30-06

natman
July 13, 2009, 06:57 AM
Let me reiterate that .30-30 Winchester is by far the cheapest "full-powered" hunting round, when buying boxes of loaded factory ammo, which is the main criteria for the OP (cost), among those that suit the power requirement he's after. The rifles that shoot this round are also extremely economical, particularly used.

.30-06 and .270 are the "2nd tier" in low cost in factory ammo, and among those, the .270 has less recoil. But the .30-30 wins this race easily, with the criteria given - .270 being a distant 2nd place. IMO.


* Ammunition must be affordable and easy to find
* Rifle chambered for the round must be affordable and easy to find
* Appropriate for 90% of the game in North America (excluding varmints)
* Manageable recoil
* Accurate

Here's the OP's list of requirements. While ammo for the 30-30 may be slightly more affordable and it offers somewhat less recoil, the 30-06 still offers "affordable and easy to find" ammunition and "manageble recoil". The minor advantages offered by the 30-30 in ammo cost and recoil are not nearly enough to offset the major advantages the 30-06 has in accuracy, power, range and versatility.

I own several 30-30s and hunt deer with a Marlin 336 in the woods, but given that this is going to be the OP's only high powered centerfire rifle, a 30-06 bolt action is the clear choice.

scythefwd
July 13, 2009, 09:18 AM
Tad,
The .30-30 isn't a high powered round. It is an intermediate round. Also, while it has taken every large game in North America, I wouldn't consider it "Appropriate for 90% of the game" when there are other options that aren't that much more expensive that will do the job so much better. Both the 30.06 and the 270 have over 1.5 times the energy, shoot flatter, have greater range and cost only 4 dollars more per box of 20. I can get a 30-06 for the same cost as the .30-30, so that isn't an issue here.

I still say go with the mosin, you can get them for about 120, show me another rifle here that can meet that.

Eb1
July 13, 2009, 10:56 AM
Then I guess the 30-06 isn't a high powered round either considering there are 50 BMG and 20mm cartridges available.

The 30-30 is definitely a high powered cartridge from all aspects.

:banghead::banghead::banghead:

NCsmitty
July 13, 2009, 11:51 AM
Everyone has their favorite rifles and rounds. The advice given here in this thread is all generally good and for all the right reasons.
The only thing that I can add is to maybe give consideration to adopting an orphan rifle sitting at a pawn shop or a regular gun shop. It doesn't have to be new. Caliber choice is not truly relevant as long as it's one of the popular rounds mentioned in the thread. All will do the job quite well. 30-30, 30'06, 270, 308, they are all readily available and reasonably priced.
Give a good used rifle a new home, and maybe save some money too.


NCsmitty

batmann
July 13, 2009, 11:59 AM
You need go no further than a .30-06 bolt action. If you like short action, go with a .308. As much as I like my .30-30 94 Winchester, it's not for everybody.

R.W.Dale
July 13, 2009, 12:15 PM
You need go no further than a .30-06 bolt action. If you like short action, go with a .308. As much as I like my .30-30 94 Winchester, it's not for everybody.

I agree especially for folks like the OP who wants ONE rifle to hunt EVERY situation. Depending on what load you choose the 30-06 can go from being a rimless 30-30 to so close to a 300win mag as to make no difference and everything in between. The rifles are just as cheap if not cheaper for a 30-06 and the difference in ammo price is negligible, there is still some surplus and cheap steel cased 30-06 ammo floating around that can be had for less per box than all but the absolute cheapest 30-30

cheap 30-30
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=133757886

cheap 30-06, I've shot this it's actually pretty good stuff and surprisingly accurate
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=134076127

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 13, 2009, 12:26 PM
Someone had better tell all those dead geezers that .30-30 isn't appropriate for 90% of the game on the continent, since two people said that, and those silly misled souls found it more than appropriate for 100% of the game on this continent. Oh brother. :rolleyes:

And now .30-'06 is "manageable recoil"? No, sorry, RELATIVE to the many many other big game calibers, it's starting to brush up against the upper spectrum of manageability. Sure it's manageable, but so is .50 BMG. It's anything but "light" or "relatively manageable". The .30-06 has HEAVY recoil in the grand scheme of things. Not meeting the requirements given, in my view. Unless you use the managed recoil loads, which is a good option, but still not as cheap as .30-30, and the same ballistics or actually a little poorer ballistics than the .30-30.

krochus, you have a point - the 7.62x39 meets the requirement of cheap ammo and the other requirements, as does .30-30 as I said. Those two are the best choices for what he wants. Except the 7.62x39, although certainly found in cheap-to-buy rifles, is a bit hard to find in cheap-to-buy rifles which are also very accurate. Though Saigas and most SKSs are an exception and have acceptable hunting accuracy.

natman
July 13, 2009, 01:06 PM
Someone had better tell all those dead geezers that .30-30 isn't appropriate for 90% of the game on the continent, since two people said that, and those silly misled souls found it more than appropriate for 100% of the game on this continent. Oh brother.

And now .30-'06 is "manageable recoil"? No, sorry, RELATIVE to the many many other big game calibers, it's starting to brush up against the upper spectrum of manageability. Sure it's manageable, but so is .50 BMG. It's anything but "light" or "relatively manageable". The .30-06 has HEAVY recoil in the grand scheme of things. Not meeting the requirements given, in my view. Unless you use the managed recoil loads, which is a good option, but still not as cheap as .30-30, and the same ballistics or actually a little poorer ballistics than the .30-30.

Tap dancing around the issues isn't going to change the facts. The 30-30 may have been used at one time to kill all sorts of things, but the 30-06 is still better at it than than the 30-30. The 30-06 pushes the same bullet weights a whopping 500 fps faster than the 30-30. That's a bigger difference than the difference between the 30-06 and the 300 Weatherby!

Instead of waxing nostalgic, let's take a look at some real life scenarios:

Antelope/Deer/Sheep at 300 yards. Your pick: 30-30 or 30-06? No question, 30-06. The 30-30 drops twice as much and has less than half as much retained energy.

Elk at any distance. Sure you "can kill" an elk with a 30-30, but I'll pick a 30-06 Light Magnum with a 180 grain Partition over ANY 30-30 load.

Talking about RELATIVE recoil is just more tap dancing. There is no question that the 30-06 kicks harder than some cartridges, but it is still easily manageable by most adults. It can not be realistically called a "HEAVY" recoiling cartridge. If 30-06 recoil really is an issue then get a 270. Still vastly superior for all around use.

The OP clearly stated that he needs an all around rifle. A 30-06 bolt action clearly fits HIS criteria far better than a specialized cartridge like the 30-30, which is really only useful in a short range, medium power brush gun.

Uncle Mike
July 13, 2009, 01:49 PM
Oh brother...

I think...the 30-06 is CHEAPER than the 30-30 to operate. As far as sniping elk is concerned. So there!

I bet you pop off more with the 30-30 than the 30-06 trying to anchor that bull,
so redneck math says... 4 rounds of 30-30, take away 1 round 30-06, gots left 3 rounds 30-30 which gots to cost more than 1 rounds of 30-06.... leaves more cash for beer...

30-06 wins....:D

UniversalFrost
July 13, 2009, 02:09 PM
30/06

i prefer open sights and a scoe with see thru or detachable rings. scope in nikon buckmaster or monarch or an elite 3200 or 4200 fits the bill nicely.

gun would be a 700 bdl or cdl with the 22 or 20" barrel or maybe the ruger frontier i think they call it that has the 18-20" barrels and had the option for either scout scope type mounting of traditional receiver scope bases.

the weatherby vanguard is also hard to beat and their sub-moa models can be had for a good price. I own a sub-moa 30/06 and got it from bud's online for a killer price.

JOE

elmerfudd
July 13, 2009, 03:50 PM
I like the .308 best myself. It's widely available, suitable for just about everything but big bears and bison, there's still some surplus around for target practice and it kicks a little less than an 06.

The days of blasting away with cheap surplus ammo are mostly over now, but there's still some of it around and you can target practice with it for about half the price, (or less depending on the cartridge), of commercial ammo. If that's a factor for you, then you want to get a rifle in one of the following calibers. .308, 30-06, 7.62x54R, 8mm Mauser or 7.5 Swiss. Of those cartridges only .308 and 30-06 are going to be readily available in sporting rifles or at the local Walmart. 7.62x54R is very cheap, but commercial softtips are hard to find and the only rifles chambered for it are surplus Mosin Nagants. For me that would rule it out in a serious hunting rifle. 7.5 Swiss can be hard to find, but the ammo is top notch as are the rifles and IMO they are very suitable for hunting. 8mm Mauser used to be available for $50 for a case of 980 cartridges. The ammo wasn't very good, but at that price you could plink with it like it was a rimfire. Unfortunately, it's not that cheap anymore and the commercial loads are very wimpy, (in case someone shoots it through an antique). So for serious hunting loads it's mostly a handloaders proposition.

Right now, 30-06 surplus is cheaper than .308. I'm guessing that won't last however since 30-06 is militarily obsolete and once it's gone it's gone. Then again, it's very possible that between the UN and our current administration that we won't be getting much surplus .308 in the future either.

TenDriver
July 13, 2009, 05:27 PM
I second (or third) the XL-7in .270 Win. I bought a brand new one for less than $400 including el Cheapo Bushnell scope, rings, sling, and boresighted. It took some dialing in, but it has turned out to be a real tack driver. I love the trigger, pretty much identical to the Savage Accu-trigger. Mine is adjusted down to the 1.5 lb minimum pull and is smooth as silk even on heavier pulls.

It also has a very thick rubber recoil pad on it. First time out I shot 25 rounds through it over the course of several hours with less than a day's worth of soreness on my shoulder. It fits very well, and I'm a small build kind of guy. I'm seriously thinking of buying another in .30-06 or something bigger should it become available.

nulfisin
July 13, 2009, 06:32 PM
Even if you have to pay someone at the range, why not give the rifles a test? The three rounds you mentioned are certainly not the same, but they are similar in terms of power, cost, and recoil. So just pick the one YOU like best.l

All three are great rounds, as is the 30-30 for shorter shots. (Actually, a 30-30 is THE best for shorter shots.) The versatility of the .30-06, IMO, makes it the best choice if you have to stick with one gun.

TenDriver
July 14, 2009, 12:07 AM
JV, if you're in my area you're welcome to try out my XL next time I'm at the range.

JCisHe
July 14, 2009, 12:09 AM
.30-06

jpwilly
July 14, 2009, 12:20 AM
You're saving $4.00 with every box of shells. That's important in light of: "I am a man of limited means, so I need to be judicious when deciding to purchase a firearm"

I respectfully disagree, $4 more for a box of ammo isn't going to stop a man from purchasing the most versatile hunting cartridge in North America. A "man of limited means" is going to sight the rifle in 3-5 shots and kill 1 deer a year for next 15years with the rest of the shells. If that "man of limited means" is able to do some side work (wash cars, mow grass, help and old lady out) than it isn't going to matter either.

Yeah for the Ought 6 way better than the 30-30! YMMV Flame suit on!

Maverick223
July 14, 2009, 01:35 AM
I realize that you posted some qualifications, but I still want a few answers...most importantly what is the relative area (Pacific NW or SE USA)? Do you intend to travel to hunt? Budget (less than $200 or sub $2k)? Define "bad" recoil (What have you shot and found to be excessive? .30-30 or .460WM?). Do you plan to target shoot or will the firearm solely be used for hunting? These questions will greatly change the results to the question. :)

BornAgainBullseye
July 14, 2009, 01:55 AM
scan the used rack at the local shops and pawn shops. DO NOT GET A REMINGTON 710 !!! You should be able to pick up a quality bolt gun for under $350. I would be on the lookout for a .270 win. Here in rural southwest Georgia there is .270 in most gas stations. However if you really cant handle a .270 I would not pass up a .243 . There is a Winchester model 70 push feed in .270 with a fancy walnut stock and a Tasco 3x9 pre china scope at the local pawn shop for $365 and it has been there for 6 months. Cash talks when dealing with pawn shops. Look at it pull out the bolt and look at the bore before buying it. Ask if you can have it checked out if you dont know what you are looking for. If he says "NO" walk away. If he counter offers and says that he will buy it back if it is a lemon then consider it a deal.

blackops
July 14, 2009, 03:26 AM
This is simple 30-06 or 270. 30-06 is more common. I was brought up with a 270. I've never NOT been able to find 270 ammo. Recoil moderate. I have a Winny M70 featherweight and at 100yds putting a hole in a silver dollar is no problem.

scythefwd
July 14, 2009, 09:36 PM
ed1,
The .30-30 is nowhere near the 06 in power. The .30-30 launches a 170 grain bullet at approximately 2300 fps (2330 fps max load) where your 06 is doing the same pill at approx. 2800 (2794 fps max load). That is a power difference of 898 ft-lbs right there.

At what energies and at what distances do you draw the line for an full power cartridge?

Just remember, you can always buy reduced recoil rounds for the -06 that will be about the same power level as the .30-30 but you can't buy .30-30 magnum rounds that will touch an -06.

jvberryjr
July 16, 2009, 10:42 PM
Using the same criteria, what would be a logical step up from .308 or .30 - 06 for velocity and flatter trajectory maintaining a manageable recoil?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 16, 2009, 11:09 PM
Got it figured out. The answer is undoubtedly .300 Remington Ultra Magnum, Ackley Improved. Without any doubt. Many many people have correctly pointed out how much more powerful the .30-06 is than the .30-30 winchester, nevermind that that extra power is not needed in any way shape or form for 90-95% of hunting. The .300 RUM is far far more powerful than the .30-06, so clearly it must be better still. Who are these silly people touting the .30-06 when every single reloading manual I have shows the .300 RUM to be far far more powerful than the .30-06. You're not as silly as me for suggeting .30-30 earlier, but silly nevertheless.

Maverick223
July 16, 2009, 11:35 PM
The answer is undoubtedly .300 Remington Ultra Magnum, Ackley Improved.That's crazy talk...the .300 Hulk (a .308 in a necked down 50BMG IIRC) or bust. :D

natman
July 17, 2009, 06:02 AM
Got it figured out. The answer is undoubtedly .300 Remington Ultra Magnum, Ackley Improved. Without any doubt. Many many people have correctly pointed out how much more powerful the .30-06 is than the .30-30 winchester, nevermind that that extra power is not needed in any way shape or form for 90-95% of hunting. The .300 RUM is far far more powerful than the .30-06, so clearly it must be better still. Who are these silly people touting the .30-06 when every single reloading manual I have shows the .300 RUM to be far far more powerful than the .30-06. You're not as silly as me for suggeting .30-30 earlier, but silly nevertheless.

So instead of spending most of your post restating the OP's criteria to fit your preferred conclusion (30-30), you've now decided to ignore them completely. I suspect that a 300RUMAI would not meet the OPs criteria of affordable, available ammo and rifles, not to mention recoil :eek:.

I realize you are exaggerating for effect, but while the 30-30 was at one time considered a powerful, flat shooting marvel, that era lasted only 12 years - until the introduction of the 30-06. The 30-30 is adequate for 90% of hunting as long as you stick to deer under 150 yards. But the OP wants a gun for 90% of ALL hunting, which includes larger game and longer ranges.

Given the OP's criteria as HE wrote them, the 30-06 is a far better choice.

scythefwd
July 17, 2009, 06:16 AM
Tad,
I did point out the 30-06 was the better choice. It has never been out of stock around here, the rifles can be had for less than 400, and you can buy managed recoil rounds that will take it down to the .30-30. If you are hunting in some open place like NE, then a 400 y shot isn't unheard of. I wouldn't trust a .30-30 at that distance. I was being facetious when I said the 7.62x54R. It will work, but there are better suited choices. I, for one, find the 30-06 comfortable to shoot.

On the other hand, the .30-30 meets all the requirements technically. I wouldn't bet on it to make a clean and humane kill at 300y. I have yet to see a 1.5 moa .30-30 yet. The best I have seen is a 1.75 moa, which translates to a 4.5 inch group at 300y with no wind. At the relatively slow speed it is moving, there is potential for a lot of drift. I usually get my boxes a lot cheaper than quoted here though. The argument that the .30-30 has taken every game on the NA continent is moot. So has just about every round mentioned. I wouldn't want to hunt game that hunts back with it. I have yet to spend 10 dollars on a box of 20. While the .30-30 works well in the areas I hunt in, I am under no illusions that my .30-30 will do anything that my .308 won't do just as well. I feel the same way about the .30-06.

TX Hog Hunter
July 17, 2009, 08:17 AM
My Ruger m77 Hawkeye stainless with brown laminated stock in .30-06 will handle 99% of my N American hunting needs.

You can buy .30-06 ammo virtually anywhere ammo is sold and can usually be found reasonably priced. There is a tremendous selection of ammo available for it for everything from varmints to very big game.

The Ruger 77 is one of (if not THE toughest) the most rugged and reliable hunting rifles available. It has what I consider the safest of safeties and normally shoot very well. They come with a set of high quality scope rings which attach directly to the receiver so you don't have the added expense of buying rings and bases.

Mount a Bushnell 3200 or 4200 Elite or a Leupold VX II on it any you are set..........

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 17, 2009, 10:47 AM
natman, sorry, but you could not possibly be more wrong.

So instead of spending most of your post restating the OP's criteria to fit your preferred conclusion (30-30), you've now decided to ignore them completely.

Yeah, just like you did when you recommended .30-06. :p

I suspect that a 300RUMAI would not meet the OPs criteria of affordable, available ammo and rifles, not to mention recoil.

Wow, gee, ya think? Kinda like one OTHER recommendation from SOME people.

I realize you are exaggerating for effect

Ummm, yeah.

but while the 30-30 was at one time considered a powerful, flat shooting marvel, that era lasted only 12 years - until the introduction of the 30-06.

And yet every year up to and including 2009 - over 100 years later, truckloads upon truckloads of leverguns in .30-30 are sold and used to good effect.

The 30-30 is adequate for 90% of hunting as long as you stick to deer under 150 yards.

You're making me laugh hard man. Under 150 yes, I agree with that. Guess what. The vast majority of hunting is done under 100 yards, let alone 150. But all give you that. As for deer sized game, wrong! You're just way off base there. Ask caribou, who just explained today that natives who hunt HUGE game in Alaska consider the .243 to be an excellent choice. The .30-30 will kill anything on the continent, any day, all day long. Easily. With power to spare. At appropriate ranges. Does anyone on this board have more hunting experience than caribou? I think not.

But the OP wants a gun for 90% of ALL hunting,

No he doesn't; you are wrong; he said:

Appropriate for 90% of the game in North America

It is you who is not reading the criteria carefully. He didn't say ALL hunting, to imply long range hunting, as you are trying to impute to him. He said 90% of the game in North America. As it turns out, the .30-30 is appropriate for around 95% of the game in North America, counting species, and 99.99% of game in North American, counting actual heads of game running around.

which includes larger game and longer ranges.

Again, he didn't say longer ranges, and it's fine for moose or any large game you can think of, except perhaps grizzly or polar bears.

Given the OP's criteria as HE wrote them, the 30-06 is a far better choice.

No, it's not. It's a good choice, which is why it was #3 on my list. But it's a LOT more recoil, and a fair amount more expense, both of which fly in the face of his most important two criteria.

Maverick223
July 17, 2009, 01:11 PM
I agree with you Doc, but it appears that the OP has abandoned ship, and without answers to a few basic questions (by him and only him), that I have asked twice...there is no clear cut answer. Until the OP returns and answers a few questions...see ya on the flip side. :)

jvberryjr
July 17, 2009, 01:47 PM
I realize that you posted some qualifications, but I still want a few answers...most importantly what is the relative area (Pacific NW or SE USA)? Do you intend to travel to hunt? Budget (less than $200 or sub $2k)? Define "bad" recoil (What have you shot and found to be excessive? .30-30 or .460WM?). Do you plan to target shoot or will the firearm solely be used for hunting? These questions will greatly change the results to the question. :)
Sorry for the absence.

I'm a newbie so this is my first hunting rifle, so I don't ahve any experience to base relative recoil. In my home state of Ohio we need to use a shotgun, but i just wanted a good all purpose hunting rifle in case the opportunity presented itself. For now I will be using it mostly for target. My budget for a rifle would be not much over $500.

Maverick223
July 17, 2009, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the reply...it tells me a great deal about your needs. First I think you need to establish a baseline as far as recoil tolerance. Have you fired a shotgun before...if so of what gauge? If you have fired a 12Ga with a hunting load and not found it to be too severe of recoil then I would go with a .30-06. There are some pretty large deer in Ohio, that is not to say that a .30-30 couldn't get the job done, but shot placement will be less critical, and there is a comfortable range advantage if you can handle the .30-06. :)

Art Eatman
July 17, 2009, 02:13 PM
Welcome back. :D Coming late to the party, lemme say that after almost sixty years, I'm sorta partial to the old '06. But I've been equally satisfied with my .243, so go figure. And most anything in between will do in the lower 48, if the shooter knows what he's doing.

Bits & Pieces: Don't be in a hurry. Money goes out a lot faster than it comes in. Good used rifles generally shoot as well as brand new rifles. Good used reloading equipment works just as well as brand new stuff, generally; I even have some old pre-WW II stuff that still works just fine--and if you learn to reload, the cost per shot is way, way lower.

The '06 has always been noted for wide-ranging versatility. For a reloader, it's as close to a do-all as ever could be. From squirrels to meese. :)

natman
July 17, 2009, 02:57 PM
natives who hunt HUGE game in Alaska consider the .243 to be an excellent choice. The .30-30 will kill anything on the continent, any day, all day long. Easily.

The rest of your post is repeation, but this point deserves addressing. Natives who hunt in Alaska work under very different conditions than most of us. For one thing they live where they hunt. They know where the animals are, they can sometimes hunt without regard to seasons all year every year.

I am going to hazard a guess that the OP is not an Alaskan native. That means he has to hunt in rifle season, which often is not the easiest time of year. He may just get a week or so to hunt somewhere he has never been before. There will probably be a lot of other hunters so the game is spooked. This means he may have to shoot at animals that are a bit out of the 30-30's range.

I've already given examples, so I won't repeat myself.

Look, I like the 30-30. It's a very useful cartridge within it's limits and it's chambered in some nice light lever actions. It's so important in American hunting history that I think everyone should own at least one and know what it can do. Just as importantly, you should know what it can't do.

As much as I enjoy my 30-30, if I was going to have ONE rifle it would be a 30-06. Oh and yes, they sell an awful lot of them too.

Well I think we've made our points and I don't see anything to be gained by going around this merry-go-round again. Bye, nice chatting with you.

federalfarmer
July 17, 2009, 09:44 PM
Try a .270 Win. Easy on the shoulder, wally-world has ammo,used guns for $400, and it kills at 1 yard and 500.
Oh, and some writers in the past have encouraged there use!

UniversalFrost
July 18, 2009, 12:36 PM
I have already made my post for 30/06,

But i want to say that I totally agree with Art (just like I usually do over on TFL) that .243 is a very good choice as well and my first deer rifle is chambered in .243 and has killed several 220 to 235lb muleys out to 328 yds (as paced off later) in south dakota and north dakota.

If I had to do it all over again I would opt for a .243 to start out young or for a recoil sensitive shooter. Then move up to a 30/06 and load it light or get some of the managed recoil factory stuff. Once you can handle the recoil or buy a limbsaver pad and maybe a recoil reducer and that will help.

One one of my S&W i-bolts in 30/06 I added a limbsave pad and the S&W mercury filled recoil reducer that is specifically made for this stock (stock already has a hollow portion for a recoil reducer). I did these additions to drastically reduce recoil on normal 30/06 loads for the times my wife shoots the gun and to help me when I am shooting some of my super hot 220 gr loads that I worked up for a moose hunt.

The .270 is also a good round, but limited to deer and small elk. i wouldn't use it for anything larger than cow elk. it is too fast and bullet combos are picky in most of the .270's i have owned and performance was nor worth wasting my time or effort on it when I had a 30/06 and a .243.

I do own a .270 now (tikka t3 lite), and have owned several .270's in the past, but none were my first choice come opening day of deer or elk season. I will always reach for a 30/06 or .243 (for deer) and the 30/06 for elk ( along with moose). I do have other calibers in between and beyond the scope of .243 or 30/06 but those two are the only ones you need other than a .22 and a 12 or 20ga.

JOE

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