[Runningman]

First off let me say my 3 older Remington 870 have been reliable.

But I got to ask has the Remington 870 reputation for reliability "out of the box" been ruined in this decade???

After reading so many threads in the last 5 or 6 years on my "Remington 870 won't extract". Did a Google search today on (Remington 870 + not extracting) among other searches. Must say was shocked by the shear number of threads I read complaining about newer 870s and extraction issues.

It begs the question.... What all did Remington do to the 870 to ruin its out of the box reliability for so many people? While some try to blame cheap crappy ammo. I myself don't think the problem with ammo is the root cause. Appears to be more of a production process issue to me.

I think more likely after reading so many posts on it. The poor quality chamber surface finish and or Remington's non reflective finish sticking in the chamber during production is one of the biggest issues. One gunsmith along claimed to have fixed over 50 Remington 870s by polishing the chamber.

[earlthegoat2]

I would not say it is purely reliability but rather the degradation of the form of an American firearm and the people that choose cost over quality.

Reliability being on the fritz is just a logical side effect of the above.

[oletymer]

The lack of quality you read about is because so many buy the cheap Express model. If people would spend the money for quality it would be there. Instead they buy the cheapest thing. Mossbergs, Express, cheap Chinese and Turkish guns dominate the postings.

[hags]

The lack of quality you read about is because so many buy the cheap Express model. If people would spend the money for quality it would be there. Instead they buy the cheapest thing. Mossbergs, Express, cheap Chinese and Turkish guns dominate the postings.


I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that but..........

I have a new Express model that's become my personal pump. I have had zero issues with it after about 1500 rounds. It's definitely a keeper.

I don't see an issue with reliability with the 870s, or Mossbergs for that matter. Sure you get bad parts but that can happen on a $2000 custom 1911.
I've seen bad examples of all kinds of firearms. You see the same thing in other industries, auto, appliances, etc....That's the nature of the beast.

I sell tons of Remington 870s and 870Ps I've not seen a pattern of decreasing quality at all.

In my experience most firearms related "issues" are related to operator error.

[fuelie777]

I am one of those that have a Rem 870 from earlier. It has yet to not extract or work, period.

I am an RO at the local range. I witnessed a new remington 870 being function tested. It had definite extraction problems. It was the express verision with the parkerized finish.

I too have recently purchased a Rem 870 with a parkeized finish. It had all of the features I wanted and needed. After what I witnessed yesterday, I went to fucntion test it. Cleaned it (I though very well), went to fucntion test it, extracting issues after firing. My only recource is to contact Remington, to send it back, or polish the firing chamber myself (or take it to a smith). This shotgun should not ever have extraction issues. If cheap ammo is the culprit, then why is my older wingmaster function flawlessly on cheap ammo.

After writing this, I do plan to contact Remington and ask them what to do. If they do not have the feed back, then how are they to correct the issue. (I know it should not happen).

Any suggestions?

[ArmedBear]

I would not say it is purely reliability but rather the degradation of the form of an American firearm and the people that choose cost over quality.


That's the origin of the 870 itself. The Wingmaster is still a bunch of stamped steel and piano wire that replaced the real "ball-bearing pumps" that preceded it in Remington's lineup, and proceeded to kill the machined Model 12 in the marketplace with its better price. People were attracted to damn-near-as-good, for half the price.

WRT the Express, mine has had zero trouble except with one particular kind of ammo, so I just don't care. It's crap ammo.

The whole point of a pump gun in 2009 is that it's semi-disposable, a reliable, relatively cheap workhorse. Duck boats, prison armories, guard shacks, patrol cars -- none of these are places you'd expect to find a Purdey.:)

The market for a really nice pump exists, but it's limited, since the autoloader has been perfected and the O/U isn't much more expensive than a pump with the same fit and finish (see Ithaca's recent offerings).

So, many people aren't willing to pay for a top-quality, finely finished pump gun, and Remington isn't exactly a company that goes for the high end of the market, despite some of their excessive MSRPs for what they're selling.

The 870 is still a reliable gun. If you have to polish the chamber to get it to extract the worst of the worst ammo, well, that's a small price to pay, given how cheap the Express has remained ($279 at Cabela's down the road from me this weekend).

[alemonkey]

I have an Express that I bought maybe 15 years or so ago. I've never had a single problem with it, but maybe the Express models of today are less reliable. Don't know.

[RandKL]

The lack of quality you read about is because so many buy the cheap Express model. If people would spend the money for quality it would be there.

You got that kind of backwards there, OT. The problems don't occur because people are buying the guns....they happen because Remington is *making* the guns that way. It doesn't matter how much gold you toss at crap, it's still going to be crap. That 870 Express *used to be* the good old basic 870 that everyone will tell you was/is a fine shotgun. Remington downgraded it, not the customers.

To Fuelie: it's not "parkerized". "Parkerized" is a type of anti-rust phosphate finish. The Express line is simply bead-blasted darkened bare metal that's intended to look decent but gives practically zero protection against rust. It's only redeeming factor is that it holds oil well. Bead blasting bare metal is literally the cheapest "non-finish" you can do other than leaving the gun in the white.

richard

[throdgrain]

I had a problem with my 1976 Wingmaster ejecting, but only after I fitted a new barrel. Go figure :)

[ArmedBear]

The problems don't occur because people are buying the guns....they happen because Remington is *making* the guns that way.

Econ 101: F

The moment people quit buying the guns that way is the moment Remington would stop making them that way.

Remington makes many 870 variants. Customers have the ability to choose among them, and many choose the Express.

Why? Once you pass the $650-700 mark, most people aren't looking at pump guns, for one thing. This isn't 1950 any more.

Furthermore, it seems that when someone becomes a "gun snob" the Remingtons are the first things to get sold off. The text in their catalogs notwithstanding, Remington is not a high-end gunmaker.

[earlthegoat2]

It may have a little to do with what I call: The Taurus Approach (yes based upon Taurus Manufacturing International)

Make a product that is "good enough" cutting every corner imaginable to keep price down. Dont do any sort of QA. Accept that there will be failures and problems. Then offer a lifetime warranty. Since the product is "good enough" and the manufacturing methods are "good enough" then the majority will be trouble free. Those that have problems are warrantied and thus get sent back at the manufacturers expense. This expense however is acceptable and planned for. The expense of all the returns is nowhere near the expense that would have been if proper manufacturing methods and QA were up to snuff in the first place.

Econ 101: A++


On another note, as much as I have used Remington 870s in the past I find them to be way too Ho-Hum. You see too many at gun shows and in pawn shops. (which everyone knows arent the best places to find guns but everyone seems to go there anyway) If the market wasnt so saturated with this "cut every corner imaginable to keep price down" guns then maybe the shows and shops would be worthwhile to go to. I dont like to be one of those guys that say that there is nothing new that is good but times have changed and the manufacturers had to change with the times and what you see is the result.

[MAX100]

The barrel chamber problems is a very minor issue and very easy for Remington to correct. They know about it but choose to do nothing about it because of cost.

It sucks but this how they choose to do business.

I personally would still choose an 870 over a 500. This is why Remington gets away with it. Blame yourselves.


GC

[Shear_stress]

I think the rise in complaints over the past decade has more to do with the rise of the internet--where every minor incident gets broadcast for the universe to see--than with a decline in reliability.

I think there is actually a net benefit to such stuff. Helps keep the manufacturers honest.

[dak0ta]

Well I think this is the trend for why the 870 still continues to sell.

New shooters interested in buying the gun already know about the extraction issues, then they post a 870 vs. 500 thread and everybody says 870 is better. New shooters want to see consensus and everybody says the 870 is better most of the time, hence they overlook the extraction issues and take the plunge to buy one. Next time around, a new shooter asks which gun is better, and people want to justify their purchase, so for better or for worse they say that the gun they bought i.e. 870 or 500 is better.

Just a thought...

[ArmedBear]

I have done as well at American Trap with a 28" 12 Gauge 870 Express as with any gun.

The 870 balances and swings well. Like earlthegoat2, I don't get excited about the things, but they work.

I think the rise in complaints over the past decade has more to do with the rise of the internet--where every minor incident gets broadcast for the universe to see--than with a decline in reliability.

Quite possibly true. In the past, you'd ask some buddies who'd been around scatterguns for a while, and one of them would either fix your problem or show you how.

I prefer the modern version, where someone who doesn't have the resources to become a full-time "range bum" can still learn. Still, one has to be careful not to turn what was once "lore" into too harsh a judgment of a gun.:)

[Runningman]

After writing this, I do plan to contact Remington and ask them what to do. If they do not have the feed back, then how are they to correct the issue. (I know it should not happen).
I agree it is a good idea to contact Remington on the issue. Let them fix the issue at their expense.

Remington may not even know how wide spread the problem is since most people are fixing it by them self or taking it to the local gunsmith from what I can see.

I'm a machinist by trade and understand the cost of rework in a production environment. Its is actually very expensive to rework parts. Its not just the labor involved with actually fixing the problem. The shipping, paperwork, processing and in many cases engineering gets involved. Costs start escalating in a hurry. Eventually someone will have a cow when their charts and graphs don't look so hot in a meeting.

[oneounceload]

Remington has to compete - as long as folks value PRICE OVER QUALITY, Remington has little choice in trying to compete with the crap from China and Turkey but to make at least one model in the same price point range. They only way for them to do that using American Labor is to cut as many steps from the mfg. process as possible. Maybe they should take a lesson from Mossberg and start having parts made in Mexico...

If you look at the prices for quality made guns, some as old as 50 years or more, they are worth more than a new one of the same model


There is one rule for the industrialist and that is: Make the best quality of goods possible at the lowest cost possible, paying the highest wages possible.
Henry Ford

[Marlin 45 carbine]

"To Fuelie: it's not "parkerized". "Parkerized" is a type of anti-rust phosphate finish. The Express line is simply bead-blasted darkened bare metal that's intended to look decent but gives practically zero protection against rust. It's only redeeming factor is that it holds oil well. Bead blasting bare metal is literally the cheapest "non-finish" you can do other than leaving the gun in the white."

evidently it's some sort of black oxide finish on abrasive blasted surface. fairly vulnerable to rust.

[Virginian]

Has the Remington 870 Reputation for reliability been ruined in this decade???
No, not in my opinion. All 870s are not even close to equal. If one buys an absolute cheap-est shotgun, expects zero problems with any kind of ammo, and doesn't know how to fix a problem if one crops up; I don't count their vote. If you want to that's fine with me.
Apparently 99.999% of buyers do not read Internet forums before they buy. I am sure if the marketing model changes, Remington will change their practices, but as of right now I don't see anything to make them change anything.

[V45C]

The barrel chamber problems is a very minor issue and very easy for Remington to correct. They know about it but choose to do nothing about it because of cost. GC
+100 , remingtons were always the biggest cashcow in my friends shop , rarely did a mossberg come back for work , and when it did it was almost always the safety coming loose and the BB jamming things up..
their model 1100's , holy crap what a joke they've become , my original LH deluxe needed cleaning at the end of the trap and hunting season...
that was all...
now they come back thru his door about every 2 weeks , esp when you use remington ammo ...
870's are now the RG-25 of shotguns...:uhoh:

[MAKster]

Remington sells the Wingmaster that has a high gloss blued finish and fancy walnut stock but no one buys it because it costs $650. People who are willing to spend that much or more on a shotgun are buying over-unders not pumps. Pumps are not prestige items but utilitarian guns now. Remington probably sells 40 Expresses for every one Wingmaster. Either sell a product for the price people are will to pay or go out of business.

[earlthegoat2]

I wouldnt be caught buying a 650 dollar O/U. A semi auto though....

[Runningman]

Either sell a product for the price people are will to pay or go out of business. Many years ago I worked in a decent size machine shop. When you walked into the doorway to go to work. There was a very large sign that hung from the celling. You could not help but notice it every morning when you walked the doorway. It stated in bold red letters. Make it Right, Make it on time, Make a profit, BUT FIRST MAKE IT RIGHT. Nobody wants to pay hundreds of dollars or more for a part or product that does not work correctly in my experience. If you do it enough times you lose your reputation. Than your customers will look elsewhere.

Look at todays auto industry. 15 -30 years ago I knew many people that would not think about buying a imported car or pickup. Now most of them are driving imports these days. GM and Chrysler have filed for bankruptcy and Ford is mortgaged to the limit.

[AcceptableUserName]

a lot of firearms "aren't made like they used ta be." Just the nature of the beast. There's ways around it, though. With the right know how one can mold the firearm to perform as they wish through upgrades and techniques and such. One of my favorite things to do is take someone's old beat-up Mossberg 500 and give it new life...or take a particular gun off the shelf and "supe it up", be it polishing a feed ramp or deburring a bolt, just takes some learning.

[handle02]

I got my 870 in about 01 or 02 give or take year,either way within the past decade.I have to say my 870 has performed flawlessly!I might have got lucky and got a good ol 870 before they went to crap.I have hunting buddies that have bought 870's within the past couple of years and everyone of them have had problems with their guns.The only problem I have had with gun is that s**t finish (it was a rust magnet).That little problem is taken care of now since I've had it ceramic coated. Just a few things I've ran into with the 870's

[Deltaboy]

Well I got a old one I got back in 1982 it is a Wing master and I have had zero problems. Now I have seen some Express shotguns that are for sure not up to stuff compared to mine after years of use and abuse in the Delta of Arkansas on the Mississippi Flyway! Remington IMO is going down hill due to Wal-mart and cheap american consumers in the pumpgun dept.

[Virginian]

Wal Mart is the absolute proof that the overriding, number one thing in the consumer's mind is price. Second place is so far back you can't even see it. People complain about the service, the out of stocks, the quality, everything, but they keep coming back.

[Moon]

I bought an 870 Supermag to replace my dated and banged up Mossberg in 2001. I thought I was moving up the ladder (removable chokes, 3.5" chamber, and it had a finish on it, unlike my thoroughly trashed Mossberg). I got rid of it last year. I just never could get it to run. The gun routinely failed to cycle, and it cost me game. That was unacceptable, and I'm one and done with Remingtons. I'm not saying that they are all bad or anything, but my one experience was negative. And to be honest, it is good to go back to the reliable old Mossberg. The gun has stood the test of time, and in my case, absolute abuse. Sometimes you just have to dance with the girl that brought you, even if she isn't pretty.

[oneounceload]

Remington sells the Wingmaster that has a high gloss blued finish and fancy walnut stock but no one buys it because it costs $650. People who are willing to spend that much or more on a shotgun are buying over-unders not pumps. Pumps are not prestige items but utilitarian guns now. Remington probably sells 40 Expresses for every one Wingmaster. Either sell a product for the price people are will to pay or go out of business.

$650 for an O/U???....more like $2500 and up....When a decent quality O/U starts about $2500, and a decent semi starts about $1000, $650 for a quality pump doesn't seem to bad at all, especially to the folks who appreciate a quality made product. Unfortunately, most folks would rather skimp on something and get the cheapest POS they can.......and then complain all over the internet about it.

Good quality, especially American-made, isn't cheap......but if you want cheap, then China and Turkey most certainly fill the bill. Since a lot of folks seem to think that way, Remington, among others, has responded with a price-point specific gun. To meet that price-point, they skimped on anything and everything.........

[TheProf]

So...does this mean I made a mistake of trading my Mossy 500 for a Remington 870? Is the Rem 870 still superior to the Mossy 500? (And I just learned that the military uses the Mossberg 500. Which makes me wonder why they did not choose the Remington 870.)

[Pizzagunner]

If my Mossberg 590 18.5" cost more than any current market 870, I'd still have bought it.

The idea of "Remmy superiority" is mostly a myth these days that was built upon the merits of the old school built Wingmasters, not the cheapened crap numbered 870 on it somewhere, somehow, and pumped out of the factory for most of the past two decades.

The Mossberg is more thoughtfully designed than is the 870, and I wouldn't own a pump gun without the tang safety and the action release where Mossberg correctly put them.

[RandKL]

evidently it's some sort of black oxide finish on abrasive blasted surface. fairly vulnerable to rust.

Yep. According to Remington it's bead blasted white metal that is then chemically darkened. I'm assuming it's akin to cold bluing. Whatever it is, it rusts. And it being bead blasted, the rust is made to be 3d....and removing 3d rust is next to impossible without a full polishing.

rich

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

The idea of "Remmy superiority" is mostly a myth these days that was built upon the merits of the old school built Wingmasters, not the cheapened crap numbered 870 on it somewhere, somehow, and pumped out of the factory for most of the past two decades.

The Mossberg is more thoughtfully designed than is the 870, and I wouldn't own a pump gun without the tang safety and the action release where Mossberg correctly put them.

The first sentence is BS because the Mossberg does not have milled steel receiver. The Remington is superior, but the Mossberg is not a bad shotgun.

The second sentence is BS because its subjective.

[Leadhead]

How much does it cost a factory to polish a chamber? All that work to make a gun and someone saves 5 minutes of work by neglecting to inspect and polish chambers......I don't know how any shooter can accept this BS!
Charge me an extra $25 already and give me a gun that works.

[ScareyH22A]

I purchased a 20" 870 Express at Big 5 in March. It took 150 rounds to break it in. Until then, I could not extract a dozen or so spent shells because the forearm wouldn't rack back. I had to forcefully pull the forearm and it came back. Upon stripping it down for cleaning, I found that the receiver had some sharp edges that eventually worn down smooth. That's all it is, just a sharp machined edge on the receiver. I'm assuming that all new Express need to be broken in, that's all.

[MAX100]

How much does it cost a factory to polish a chamber? All that work to make a gun and someone saves 5 minutes of work by neglecting to inspect and polish chambers......I don't know how any shooter can accept this BS!
Charge me an extra $25 already and give me a gun that works.

The chamber problem is probably because they don't change out their tooling as often as they should. That's the reason why some are OK and have no problems and ones that do were cut with dull worn reamer. They are letting some barrels go through that should have been scrapped or reworked.

Saving on tooling cost and scrap saves the company lots of money.


GC

[smithmax]

FWIW, it seems like Mossberg has pretty good customer service. If you are having issues they are pretty willing to help you out.

[zombienerd]

I have an 870 Express, straight out of the box broke the ejector after three cycles. Had to send it back to Remington for repair, it took them 2 months to get it back to me.

Since then, however, I have had zero issues with it. over 200 rounds through the gun with no issue. Mixed brands and loads of ammo.

[jlv08]

After going thru this thread and reading about how the venerable 870 has faired as of late, I noticed some comments about "cheap Chinese crap".:rolleyes:

I will inform you that Remington is part of a group that is bringing in "cheap Chinese crap" and other manufacturers are doing the same like Stoeger.

I took the plunge and bought two "cheap Chinese crap " shotguns and will tell you that they are NOT crap!

I will state that I have owned and repaired quite a few firearms of all makes and living here in Tidewater, Va, where folks hunt deer over hounds, the shotgun is employed 100% of the time.

I've been inside Remingtons, Winchesters,and Mossbergs mainly and most of the time neglect and cleaning issues where the problem.

I've seen the rust bucket Expresses more than I care to say and Mossbergs rattle like a dog passing a peach pit.

I've worked with metals all my life and my NEF pumps, for example, have some very good metal and machining in them. NO PLASTIC!! Real walnut stocks and forearms.

Not bad for "cheap Chinese crap".

MyChicom SKS has also been a great shooter and dead nuts reliable.

When our elected officials sourced out American jobs, they sourced out quality.

Folks overseas know that they can produce good quality for less and this has proven itself in some areas.

Don't take this as a defense of Regimes that suppress human rights.

The people who build "cheap Chinese/Turkish/ Spanish/Japanese/etc Junk" don't even have the right to own weapons like we do and if they make a firearm that I can rely on, say in the case that has been proven by the performance of my SKS and Pardners, I'll buy "em and do so without worrying about surface rust or a forearm that won't cycle due to a stuck shell.

That's my two cents.

[Virginian]

We are getting exactly what "we" as a group of buyers ask for. No, it isn't worth $25 to 99.99% of the buyers to have a polished chamber, and a forged extractor, and quality control to check the parts, and/or the final product. And while some less than satisfactory models are getting out there, not enough are coming back to warrant a change. A good looking and/or smooth finish isn't worth anything at the sales counter anymore - all black and plastic is perfect.

[ArmedBear]

The second sentence is BS because its subjective.

No, it's not, at least not the tang safety.

The tang safety is superior, ergonomically. It's quicker to flick it off while mounting the gun. One can get one's trigger finger into position while taking the gun off-safe. Putting the gun on-safe can be done without reaching around the gun. The shooter can see whether the gun is on S or F without turning the gun.

Guns that are made with less regard for price point, and quick deployment in the field, i.e. O/U and SxS shotguns, have tang safeties. They could have safeties wherever the shooter wants them. They have tang safeties.

The only reason to go with the trigger guard mounted safety is for an easier modular design. It's there for the benefit of the manufacturer, not the shooter.

Learn to loathe the 870 safety: go bird hunting with Wingmaster shooters, and find out somewhere along a steep, rocky trail that someone keeps his safety off because it's easier to make quick shots on quail that way.

That said, I have an 870 and an 1100, with the safety in question. And I have three shotguns with tang safeties, acquired over some years. Said three are all I've hunted with since I got them.

[Pizzagunner]

A "milled steel receiver" ain't all that and a bag of chips when the rest of the shotgun is still a cheapened bird gun masquerading as a fighting shotgun.

At the low price points of everything south of a real deal Wingmaster, you aren't buying an heirloom. If one wants a cheap heirloom an old M37 should suffice and still net one a better shotgun than an 870 Express.

One can still find a "milled steel receiver" AK. The ergos remain crap compared to the "delicate" aluminum and plastic AR.

That's where I see the "debate" between the 870 and the 500/590 has a parallel. Yes ergos are subjective, but a deal breaker they are when they are garbage.

[gentleman987]

They have gone down hill for sure. Mine had extraction problems and the slide would lock up. I polished the chamber and it works fine. i would have payed an extra $15 for a gun that didnt need that in the first place.

[Leadhead]

We are getting exactly what "we" as a group of buyers ask for. No, it isn't worth $25 to 99.99% of the buyers to have a polished chamber, and a forged extractor, and quality control to check the parts, and/or the final product. And while some less than satisfactory models are getting out there, not enough are coming back to warrant a change. A good looking and/or smooth finish isn't worth anything at the sales counter anymore - all black and plastic is perfect.

Well I guess I agree that if people are still buying them and Remington is "getting away" with it then I guess it's the buyer's fault....but really I don't blame the buyer's for making the decision to cheapen the product.
It reminds me of a recent development in plywood's.....somebody decided that if they shave a 1/16" of everysheet they can make more money! Personally I'd rather pay the extra cost and get a full 1/2" 5/8" 3/4" or whatever....7/16",9/16" and 11/16" plywood is bs.
It's not like carpenters were making the request for thinner materials but I guess if we keep buying them it's somehow are fault?

[Virginian]

A tang safety may be superior in your estimation, but that ain't worth 2 cents in my bank. I prefer a trigger finger safety because I can maintain a good grip throughout the motion of taking off the safety. Hows that for ergonomics? Truthfully, I don't think it makes a whit worth of difference. I have used both for 50 years and can't remember a miss because of the safety location.
Actually, the Canadians started the plywood shaving. Goes right along with what the sawmills did to 2x4s ages past.
And yes, as long as people keep buying them and not making Remington make them right, the accountants will keep dictating the "cost saving" methods. I wonder how many get bought and never even fired. The accountants dictate how to do everything now days. Screw the customer, it's all about the shareholders. Pardon me while I puke. :barf:
It doesn't mean anything, because I don't need any guns at the moment, but if I was in the market for a cheap pump, and I couldn't find a good used Wingmaster, I'd get an Express. I just greatly prefer the feel and fit of a Remington. It's not a fact based decision, it's pure emotion, but I don't care. If the chamber was rough, I already have a hone. If the MIM extractor breaks, I have a forged one somewhere around here. And if I have a rust problem, I'd spray it with Rustoleum. Then it would all be my fault. :what:
P.S. - If you prefer a Mossberg or a Brownning or a Nova, I am certainly not saying you shouldn't get that. We still have that much freedom even in Obamanation.

[JohnBT]

"and they put Winchester out of the shotgun business "

Huh? I was around then too and that's not right, unless you are referring to the Model 12 being dropped in 1959. They still made, and make, shotguns. One of my favorites is the SX-1, another quality product.

John

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

The tang safety is superior, ergonomically.

Ergonomics are subjective also, because I despise tang safeties. ;)

[Leadhead]

Virginian, I don't know who started the plywood shaving, but it's BS!
I've only notice it creeping in in the last couple years in Canada.
Is it like that too with American plywood or are you just getting our skimpy sheets?

Sorry for the detour boys.

[Neezer]

my Express work just fine :)

[Virginian]

Since I stopped working for Weyerhaeuser I don't keep up with it like I used to brand wise, but whenever I buy plywood I measure it; the stuff I am getting. You'll look at 3/8" A/C and it'll measure okay, and then you look at 7/16" it'll and come up shy a 32nd. I like the latest trend - less product in the same package. Check your weights. WalMart dog food very quietly went from a 44 pound bag to a 40 pound bag. And then they put a smiley face on it when they dropped the price - a whole lot less than 10%. Just one example.

[Leadhead]

I heard about that with the pre-filled exchange 20lb propane tanks as well.....someone decided that 15 lbs of propane was enough in order to hold the price while propane got more expensive.

[oneounceload]

because I despise tang safeties

All my shotguns have tang safeties, all are manually operated, and I can't remember the last time I ever used one.........

[Howaido]

I got the last good 870 Express, and you can't have it. :neener:

[JohnBT]

I thought I bought the last good Express in 1993.

Oh wait a minute, the stock finish was stuck to the styrofoam box liner in two places, one of them about and inch by 1.5". The finish came off with the chunks of styrofoam.

I called to see if they'd send me a little bottle of touchup finish or something and Remington wanted me to send the entire gun back a week before duck season opened. I just rubbed some shoe polish on it until it looked about right. :)

I liked the gun a lot better after I replaced the sorry-cheap-piece-of-hard-plastic-lined-junk-for-a-pad that came on it with a Decelerator pad.

John

[chuckusaret]

Based on stories on THR it seems to me that every gun has seen it's share of problems. When the Saiga came out everyone raved about them. I bought a Saiga 12 and it quickly got the name of "Sad Saiga" at my local outdoor range. You name a failed to fire/failed to feed/failed to eject problem this gun had it. I swapped it + tons of cash for a Benelli M4 and it too has problems. Moral of the story, Remington or Mossberg, reliable and cheap, and remain my weapons of choice.

[greyeyezz]

Quality control in general is becoming a thing of the past in the last ten years, and unfortunately will get worse. The sign that hangs in the shop now seems to be 'Cut costs and slap it out the door'. My 12yr old Express has been flawless in hundreds and hundreds of rounds.

[rs999]

I just got a nickel finish marine magnum. Fired it a bunch of times out at Clark Brothers straight from the cardboard box without cleaning, lubing, or disassembling it first. No problems firing 2 or 3" shells from it at all.

[Matrix187]

I recently bought a Pardner Protector 12 Gauge. I would have bought an 870, but due to the bad reputation nowadays I didn't bother. The pardner has been 100% so far with different types of cartridges. I realize the older 870's are great, but I didn't want to bother looking for one.