[mylesd]

I have a bushmaster AR-15 A3 with 20" barrel. I'd like to do some long range work. I was debating whether I should invest in a Vmatch 24" upper (the one with no front sight and the free floating aluminum handguard) and then scoping it with something like the Simmons AETEC or something a bit more highend (I have a zeiss conquest, but I can afford another one of those yet :) ) Before I invest, can I even do long range shots accurately? I'm talking about 300-600m. I know iron sights are supposed to go to about 500m but dangit, my 21 yr. old eyes cant see that far. If I can do long range shots any recommendations on modifications to my AR (keep it reasonable guys!)? Then the other question is about the grain of the bullet. Currently I shoot Federal American Eagle 55gr. Will that be enough or should I step it up to the 62gr? Whats the difference? Thanks guys!

[VG]

High Power Service Rifle matches are shot to 600 yards. AR15's dominate over M1A's and M1 Garands, even the National Match versions. These competitions include rapid-fire portions that essentially preclude the use of bolt-action rifles.

Top competitors often shoot 77 grain bullets, which have to be single loaded but have proven accurate at that range.

Any standard 5.56 round wouldn't have much energy at 600 yards. For the kind of investment you are talking about, you could likely buy a scoped bolt action .308 that would be out-of-the box accurate at those distances. Military-style "sniper" .308 rifles seem to be very popular these days, although I don't see many people shooting them at 600 yards, where an Army or Marine Corps sniper is just getting warmed up....

[dbshabo]

If you're gonna invest in a match grade upper and shoot the heavier bullets that VG mentioned make sure you get a barrel with the correct twist rate to handle the bullet. The guys over at www.ar15.com could offer a wealth of info for ya. Good Luck.

Shabo

[wanderinwalker]

I know that for play out to 300 yards, the 69gr Sierra MacthKing is an excellent performer. My Armalite M-15NM gobbles this bullet up all day long. And the Armalite has a 20" barrel and iron sights.

For 600 yard work you may wish to consider either the 77gr Sierras, 80gr Sierras or 75gr Hornadies. Until I get a chance to try 600 yard myself, all this is is passing along of info passed to me. But remember, for these bullets you need a 1:8" or faster twist.

Good luck, and practice practice practice. If you're barrel twist is adequate, you shouldn't even need a new gun. Just buy ammo!

BTW, I'm 19 and have been wearing corrective lenses for 7-8 years now and am at no handicap with irons at long range.

[Onslaught]

Unless you just WANT to buy a new upper (nothing wrong with that :) ) the one you have could do 600 meters with a good scope.

It's fun to see how many non-AR shooters just absolutely amaze themselves when they take either my Bushy 14.5" or my friend's RRA 16" and hit the 500 yard sillouette with irons!

Taken from Bushmaster's "Knowledgebase"

How much difference is there between the use of the 20" and the 24" barrel?

With factory ammo, the difference between a 20" barrel and a 24" barrel boils down to about 100 fps (feet per second - velocity). If you handload, you have a greater diversity of loads/powders that will function reliably. The 24" bbl. really does not give you anything extra over a 20" bbl. until you get out to about 400 yards where the extra velocity starts to make a difference. And, the longer barrels do very well with the heavier bullets (69 - 72 grain) at those ranges. If your specific interest is varmint hunting or long range target shooting, you may well benefit from a longer barrel.

[mylesd]

OK, so assume I keep the upper that I have already, wont the front sight get in the way??? And any recommendations on a good scope for my AR?

[yesterdaysyouth]

you'll never know the front sight is there.....

i can't see mine anyway, here it is found the pic..

http://thehighroad.bowlcorp.com/darrin/pages/DSCF0035.html

[TX65]

For 600 yards, the preferred bullet is one of the 80 grain offerings from Sierra, Nosler, JLK or Berger. For the 80's, you need a 1/8 or faster twist barrel. Some use the JLK 90 with a 1/6.5 twist barrel and reach out to 1,000 yards. Unfortunately, these are all handloads tuned to the specific rifle so if you dont load your own, these are not options.

For people who buy loaded ammo or have a 1/9 twist barrel like the Colt Elite, there are now factory loaded rounds with the Sierra or Nosler 77 grain. These are what are known as "length tolerant bullets" and are used in magazine length rounds. The 77 is not the optimal choice for 600 yards, but if you are unable to shoot the 80's, you have to work with what you can. Black Hills and I believe Federal offer loaded 77 grain ammo

Many shooters use the Sierra 69 MK at 200 and 300 yards and then go to the 80's at 600 yards. However, many have gone to the 77 grain for the 200 and 300 yard ranges. It really depends on the rifle and which bullet groups better for you.

On to the rifle,

You can shoot out to 1,000 yards with a 20 inch barrel. Going to a 24 inch barrel will give the round a bit more velocity. While my competition service and match rifles have free floated barrels, that is really to remove any undue pressure on the barrel from using a sling. My first service rifle (Colt 6601) didn't have a freefloat and I used it out to 600 yards.

Can you accurately shoot at 600 yards using a .223,,,yes. Whether you use a scope or not is up to you and your preference. How accurate you shoot is dependant on the quality of your ammo, your ability to hold consistently and your ability to read and adjust for the wind.

The scope I use for f-class out to 1,000 yards is a Leupold 16x Mark 4.

[MolonLabe416]

I would recommend investing in the best scope you can afford and using your existing upper. You MAY want to add another upper later, but skimping on the optic is never a good idea. A great optic makes up for a lot of sins. A great rifle with a poor optic is only as good as the optic (assuming same shooter skill for both of course). The standard upper with a good optic and a heavy match bullet will probably shoot better than most of us are capable of at any given range.

Good luck.

[Steve Smith]

TX65, thanks for answering his quesiton well. I try to field all the long range AR questions, but I am sick and don't feel like spending much time on the net.

Mylesd, TX65's info is correct. Personally, I woudn't truset 77s at 600 but I know 80's work well. You need a somewhat-special chamber for those, so don't buy before you test some. More on this later when I can stand to look at a monitor. OR. Use the search feature, cross reference my name and "80*" that ought to bring up some good info.

[twoblink]

Then again, I use to do 500 yards with my M1A National Match IRON SIGHTS..

500-600 yards anything with a scope is nothing... Impress your friends, be a great rifleman, shoot iron sights!!:evil: :neener:

I remember one of the guys sitting next to me was talking trash.. So I said, let's switch rifles. You shoot irons and I'll shoot with your variable powered scope, and see if you are as good as you claim.. he shut up.

A good shooter can do 500 yards with an AR no problem. 600's really pushing it and not doable with the mil-surp ammo. But with a scope and good ammo, definitely doable..

[Kobun]

VG,
Top competitors often shoot 77 grain bullets, which have to be single loaded....
Do you mean that you have to load one - shoot one? Or do you mean that you have to reload yourself?

I shoot 75gr bullets with no problems in my rifle.

[mylesd]

Thanks for the advice guys. My problem is that I have trouble distinguishing the target at 500m with iron sights. But I need more practice regardless. And if it comes down to it and I cant get it, I still have my Rem 700 PSS with a Zeiss conquest on there. I can tag my target with that instead.:D

[Swampy]

mylesd wrote:

My problem is that I have trouble distinguishing the target at 500m with iron sights.

Hey guy, no problem..... EVERYONE has trouble seeing the aiming black (aka "bull") when using irons.

When shooting with iron sights you focus your eyes to get a sharp front sight. The Bull is ALWAYS going to be a little furry, fuzzy, black spot...... even for the High Masters.

BTW, how good or bad your eyes are is pretty much irrelevent to good iron sight shooting...... Don't matter if you are 18 or 68... AS LONG AS you can focus on the front sight post (or aperture) you can hit a 6.0 MOA bull at 600 yds in the X-ring (as long as the rifle is capable, that is).

18 year olds can do this naturally.... young eyes. As us old farts reach the stage where we need bi-focals or reading glasses, we also, and for the exact same reasons, need special glasses to shoot irons. Once you have the proper eyeglass prescription to allow a sharp focus on the front post, then you can shoot that 600 yard fuzzy black ball as well as anyone.

Just FYI.... I am 48 years old, was born with only one seeing eye (right side), the "good" eye is so nearsighted that I need a -7.50 diopter correction to be able to get 20/30 vision... which means that without glasses I can't focus on anything that is further than 6 inches past the end of my nose. In spite of this I'm still able to shoot Across the Course with a Match Grade M1 in the upper end of Expert class (92-93% +). I can shoot better with an AR, but I'm bound and determined to shoot my first Master score with my M1. ;)

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever

[Steve Smith]

VG, 77s are NOT built to be loaded long and are barely longer than 69 grainers. It is the 80 that is loaded long and is single loaded.

FWIW, "top" competitors use everything from 52 grain SMKs to 90 JLKs and just about every make known to man. The common load outs are 69s or 77s for the SHORT distances of 200 and 300 yards, and 75 Hornady A-Maxes or 80 SMKs for 600 yards. Now the 90 JLK is getting more popular and has hadgood sucess from 600 to 1000 and I will be using that next year for experimentation.

Swampy, x ring at 600 itsn't 6.0 MOA, it is roughly 6". The entire aiming black is 6.0 MOA, with is roughly 36".

Do I have to stay well ALL the time to keep you guys straight?!!


Of course, the "2003 National Matches Army Cup Expert Winner" ribbon (Army Cup is one of the 600 yard events at Perry, I won it with an AR-15) in a lucite block, and my Master card could mean that I know absolutely nothing about shooting an AR at distance.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

600 yards with a ar15 now come on stop pulling my leg!:what:























:evil:

[Swampy]

Steve wrote:

Swampy, x ring at 600 itsn't 6.0 MOA, it is roughly 6". The entire aiming black is 6.0 MOA, with is roughly 36".


Yup.... that's what I said...... ;)

AS LONG AS you can focus on the front sight post (or aperture) you can hit a 6.0 MOA bull at 600 yds in the X-ring

Best to ya',
Swampy

[Steve Smith]

Ahh, I now see what you are saying, but to be honest it's hard to read. :)

[Vasilia Zhietzev]

swampy:


"When shooting with iron sights you focus your eyes to get a sharp front sight. The Bull is ALWAYS going to be a little furry, fuzzy, black spot...... even for the High Masters.

BTW, how good or bad your eyes are is pretty much irrelevent to good iron sight shooting...... Don't matter if you are 18 or 68... AS LONG AS you can focus on the front sight post (or aperture) you can hit a 6.0 MOA bull at 600 yds in the X-ring (as long as the rifle is capable, that is)."

...you can bet i'm going to do this when i get to the range next weekend! and here i am, thinking my eyes were bad also!

and yes, I own a bushmaster w/ an Hbar also...i know i've hit the target at 500 yds w/ it, but the velocity is so slow it does'nt matter.

[Steve Smith]

and on the point of my thoughts on being a rifleman. (A Rifleman is a person who, given a short familiarization period, can control a 500 yard radius with almost any centerfire rifle.)

I haven't fired an M1A in years. Today, I took out a newly purchased match M1A and tested it.

After 5 or 6 shots to get a good sight in, I fired 10 rounds "for record" on a 600 yard target and shot a 94. I didn't even shoot it WELL, in my mind. I am so used ot focusing on an AR front sight, that the longer radius of the M1A actually gave me trouble. When I got the sight in focus (target blurry) I hit 10s and Xs like normal...when I lost it, I'd drop a point. Proves yet again that focus on the front sight is the important thing.

[Jon Coppenbarger]

.

[Ironbarr]

Been following this thread with much interest - info galore... and thanks. Wondering, though... will a 16" AR effectivenes be rduced much over the rifle 20"+?

I haven't shot irons yet since cataracts had me messed up, but that will be resolved before Christmas so I'll be out there hoping to punch an "X" now and then. I see there are variables (ammo and such), but - generally - what can I expect in the way of accuracy/distance re irons?

Thanks.

-Andy

[TX65]

There are two factors related to barrel length.

1. Barrel length has a direct relationship with velocity. Longer barrels, higher velocity and shorter barrels, lower velocity. If a 20 inch barrel rifle results in 2750 fps with a Sierra 77 grain bullet, a 16 inch barrel will probably result in 2650 fps with same bullet and loading. A 24 inch barrel will probably result in 2850 fps with the same bullet and loading.

2. If you are using iron sights, the longer barrel also allows a longer sight radius. In a match rifle, shooters will sometimes add a sight extension tube or "bloop tube" to extend the sight radius even further. As such, if your 16 inch rifle is a carbine configuration and equipped with A2 sights, you will be at a disadvantage to someone with a 20 inch rifle equipped with A2 sights. Most service rifle competitors upgrade to what can be best described as National Match sights. Match rifle shooters use sights common to Palma and Olympic shooting disciplines.

With that in mind, a 16 inch barrel can be shot accurately at long distances. It is a matter of knowing your bullet, velocity, the bullet's ballistic profile and the proper sight adjustments to adjust for the range you are shooting at. It is also very important to understand the increased effect of wnd as distance increases. What generally is the quality that makes someone a top shooter is their ability to consistantly read and adjust for the wind.

As far as what accuracy you can expect, there are many other factors that would influence that including chamber, twist rate, ammunition, etc etc. As a reference, a good match rifle must be able to deliver sub MOA throughout its operating range and ideally, match rifles are closer to .5 MOA.

[Steve Smith]

To add, not detract, from TX's post, I'd like to say that you can do several things to improve your accuracy with the carbine.

First of all, use a good target. Not orange, blue, or paisley, but a flat black circle on a white or (preferrably) buff background. That will allow you to clearly see the target.

Make sure you properly align the front sight in the rear, and then move that to your intended point of impact. Recheck.

Get a good Natural Point of Aim. When you totally relax, your sights should be were you want the bullet to hit. If that doesn't happen, adjust until it does.

Try both a center and a 6 o'clock hold. The center hold is not nearly as imprecise as you might think, but it is hard to begin with. Try a 6 oclock hold first.

Try several front sights, and se if you can find one that is the same width as your aiming black at distance. That will help you line up for windage.

[Ironbarr]

I'd like to ask another Q, and first: I've read several times over the AR15.com Sight-In methods. I've taken an Indoor/Outdoor range annual membership and finally got outdoors last month (too many distractions for more intensive shooting right now), but I was able to sight-in pretty well my 4x and red dot scopes at 50 yards using Win Q3131A, leaving the irons to better eyes soon. After some 2 hours, I was gleeful of the groups - some were 1" and less - others not so hot, but that's cockpit trouble for sure.

I'm still not sure how a sight-in at 50 yards will result on 100/200 yard targets - IIUC, trajectory remains pretty flat. Is that factual? We'll get some nice weather yet and I'm ready to "work" some more on this. All info appreciated.

-Andy

[Steve Smith]

You'll be close, but that's why the sights move.

[TX65]

Andy,

As soon as a bullet leaves the barrel it begins dropping due to the forces of gravity. The term flat shooting generally refers to a cartridge which drops a small amount within a defined range of distance. The rate of drop varies with the ballistic properties of the bullet (ballistic coefficent) and velocity.

The line of sight crosses the path of the bullet at 2 points in space. The first point is at close range and if drawn on paper gives the impression that the bullet actual rises before beginning to drop. The 2nd point is at a greater distance and if drawn on paper is where the bullet again crosses the line of sight as the bullet drops. The idea of being able to sight at 25M and be on target at some greater distance do to this alignment of a straight line (the line of sight) and the curved path of the bullet intersecting the line of sight at 2 points in space.

As Steve Smith has said, that is why sights adjust so you can alter those intersection points in space.

Problem with using a red dot scope with say a 4MOA dot for accuracy shooting is that dot covers a large area that increases with distance, not a problem for hunting at 25-200 yards, but a big problem beyond that. A scope with a fine crosshair and a 1/8 MOA dot is preferred for precision shooting. To give an example of the difference, at 600 yards, a 4 MOA dot would cover a 24 inch circle on the target where a 1/8 MOA dot would be less then 1 inch. For my shooting, I have 2 scopes, a 16X and a 32X. I use the 32X actually at shorter ranges and the 16X at longer ranges.

[mylesd]

See, my problem is that when I am doing a shot at say 100m. my front sight post covers the target or it is too difficult to see the target. Granted I am probably using the wrong type of target. The targets that I use tend to have circles that are say about 6 inches in diameter. But that is the whole reason for my wanting to get a scope. The sense that Im getting is that for an AR a scope is not needed and iron sights do. So in my case I have a 20" barrel on my bushy. So I dont really see my needing to get more space between the front and rear sight. Should I try to get new sights for it? If so any recommendations? Thanks for all the responses by the way!

[Jon Coppenbarger]

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[Jon Coppenbarger]

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[Steve Smith]

Jon, those were excellent posts. I would like to expound on one part of your posts.

now you need to make sure when you use a rear peep sight is to make sure on EVERY shot that your rear eye is looking exactly threw the center of the sight EVERY time

As I have said before, there is a phenomenon now named the Toer Spot (after a Dr. Toer I'm told) that occurs when one looks through an aperture. When your eye is directly behind the aperture, the Toer Spot appears. One may see it easiest when looking at the sky through the aperture. Once you have seen it, you can see it no matter what the background. I check to see if there is a Toer Spot before each shot. I average a High Master score at 200 Rapid Sitting, 300 Rapid Prone, and the 600 yard Slow Prone, and I think the Toer Spot helps tremendously. As long as I am sure that my eye is perfectly centered behind the sight, I only have to think about the front sight. As you know, I use a .052" front and I scribe a line on my front sight that just breaks the top edge and barely runs down the face. In al I have less than 1/16" of line. What that does is it gives me a bright spot and a place to focus perfectly on.