How About a Model 94 vs. Model 336 Shoot?


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SharpsDressedMan
July 12, 2009, 04:31 PM
We have had a lot of good banter about the two all time favorite deer guns, but how about a member shoot off, via 9" paper plates at 50 yards, standing unsupported? You can sling if you want, but no bench, and no support (bipod, tree, etc), just stand and deliver. Five shots, no time limit. I'll post mine as soon as I get free to get out to the back 40 and set up a paper plate. We could even go one better and do the honor system regarding failures of any kind; feeding, ammo, jams, breakage, etc, and include those in general comments. Sound like fun?

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SharpsDressedMan
July 12, 2009, 08:02 PM
Ha! I thought this would be easy! Found out my Model 94 (a fairly recent purchase a month and a half ago), a 1952 production, has a glitch. I had shot it at the range, sighting it in and testing 25 & 50 yard zeros, but was loading it single shot from the top. Went out today and found that I have a serious feeding problem, with half the cartridges seizing up at the critical groove in the guide. I guess this is why this 1952 rifle survived in such great condition....it never got shot. I'm no gunsmith, so I'm going to find a guy that is good with Winchesters (any recommendations?) and send it out. Meanwhile, 5 shots wnt into a paper plate at 50 yards. My rifle is totally stock, with original buckhorn rear sight, front bead. Results as shown.......................................................................................................http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m247/matquig/DSC05371.jpg

R.W.Dale
July 12, 2009, 08:04 PM
there was a 30-30 shoot and nobody participated and off hand only tells us about the shooter and really nothing about the rifles

Both rifles in the proper calibers qualify for my "century" match, start shooting in it and at the end of the month I'll average out the marlin vs Winchester submissions and award a lever action manufacturers title

ECVMatt
July 12, 2009, 08:14 PM
SDM,

Thanks for the honest report. I am sure your rifle will end up working beautifully. I bet it is something easy to fix.

Since I have both a nice early Winchester and I few nice Marlin's I will try to shoot both next week. I will use the same ammo and such and send in an honest report.

I am kind of over all the 336 v. 94 stuff. Use what fits you best and have fun. Better yet own both and enjoy both.

Have a good one,

Matt

Oldtrader3
July 12, 2009, 08:22 PM
I think comparative accuracy would be hard to prove because of all the variations and different caliber chamberings that have been available in each of the two models. I think the only valid pairing would be same shooter, same caliber, same ammunition in each pair of rifle models. Also a Marlin Microgroove will IMHO, outshoot a post-64 through 1978, Model 94, especially in .35 Remington. There are too many degrees of freedom and variables to prove anything statistically.

Plus caliber matching (or lack thereof) will skew any results. Some calibers have better crafted ammuntion and are inherently more accurate, depending on era produced and by whom. For example, some old .32 Win Special loads have 8mm (.318 dia) bullets instead of .321 dia properly sized bullets. These variables make any comparison without controlled experiment, meaningless.

It's like your other tests with the Russian round, statistically meaningless, because of lack of experiment controls and meaningful ranged targets for grouping tests. Also too many degrees of freedom, not enough data to statistically correlate to confidence level.

Deltaboy
July 12, 2009, 08:31 PM
Limit it to 30-30 only no scopes.

Oldtrader3
July 12, 2009, 11:19 PM
What 30-30 Winchester? There are several variant model 94's, made by two different companies, with 4-5 different sights, made for 115 years, also with 15 years of post-64 stamped part rifles that rattled when shook. Probably a recent USRAC, Model 94, 20 inch carbine vs. a recent 336, 20 inch would be somewhat equitable. Also, what ammuntion, 150-170 gr, made recently? There are differences in ammo accuracy as well. Regular W-W, Power Points are probably a good comparison.

Otherwise it's apples to oranges.

Sam1911
July 13, 2009, 08:11 AM
So I can't enter my .35 Rem? I'd like an excuse to go shoot it. I'd even take the scope off (QD mounts) if it's required.

-Sam

SharpsDressedMan
July 13, 2009, 08:53 AM
I just thought it would be a good exercise to get all the interested members STANDING UP and firing their guns the way they are SUPPOSED to be fired. :) At least now and then a standing shot is called for, and the handling characteristics contribute to how well the shooters does, too. If we see a trend in groups size, etc, with a particular brand (given averaging the shooters results with each rifle, in general), who knows? Whether we ever get definitive or not, we still got a little practice, and showed ourselves what we could do. That's really who we are competing with....ourselves. Just nice to have others for comparison. PS: Let's make it ANY lever action!

Sam1911
July 13, 2009, 09:10 AM
Ok. Cool! So please set out a set of rules for the game. You said 50 yds., off-hand, unsupported. But with a sling if so desired.

Is that the extent of it? Your gun, your ammo, set up as you would walk into the field to hunt?

That sounds like a pretty good test to me, just for fun!

I'll try to do it Thursday night, before IDPA practice.

-Sam

R.W.Dale
July 13, 2009, 12:00 PM
I just thought it would be a good exercise to get all the interested members STANDING UP and firing their guns the way they are SUPPOSED to be fired.

Yeah I thought that too, and then NOBODY participated in the standing part of last months Com Bloc match or the AR match

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=439123&page=2

a grand total of 3 people shot in the exact same match you propose from just a few weeks ago. Trust me BTDT if you want to get folks to actually participate you have to have you match encompass as wide a variety of firearms and calibers as possible and make it easy as possible to be competitive

R.W.Dale
July 13, 2009, 12:01 PM
So I can't enter my .35 Rem? I'd like an excuse to go shoot it. I'd even take the scope off (QD mounts) if it's required.

-Sam

go shoot it in my century match, 35rem is over 100yrs old so it qualifies

bearmgc
July 13, 2009, 12:09 PM
Me thinks it needs to be 2 catagories, a 5 shot group, iron sights 50yd, and a 5 shot group 4x or less scope at 100yds. Target will be a standard size post card.....Yeah! Oh and off hand , sling allowed.

SharpsDressedMan
July 13, 2009, 05:08 PM
Here's how I figure it. 50 yards is one of the shorter rifle distances, but still a challenge for standing unsupported. If a guy has a scope on his brush carbine, he still has to stand steady to get hits....he might have a little advantage, but not a lot, so why say "iron sights only" and exclude the scope guy? Whether you shoot a pistol round, .30-30, or .35 Rem, you still have to be able to shoot. A paper plate is not an index card, but if a guy can shoot all five on an index card, they should be nicely grouped on the paper plate. KISS.....Keep it simple. As stated above, we are really in competition with ourselves. We aren't going to prove who is the best shot, as anyone of us can be having a bad day, but just participating gets us out and demands no more time than setting up the plate, and banging out five rounds (I did it in 10 minutes easy). Ammo shortage or not, we ALL can expend five rounds. All in all, it would be hard to be simpler, or more inclusive than that, since you can fire anything, iron sights or scope. The standing unsupported brings us all together with similar demands on ability, and the practice makes us better than we would be without practice. I could probably have done better if I had kept shooting groups, but mine was an example of grabbing my rifle, and going out and shooting. I think I would have bagged a whitetail at 50 yards with that group.

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