Building Full Auto


PDA






danprkr
July 12, 2009, 09:56 PM
It has been alluded to in other threads that some have legally built full auto weapons for themselves. I was under the impression that it was not legal to build any new full auto except for law enforcement. Am I mistaken?

Also, should I build said full auto for myself what happens to it when I die?

Also, if a LEO buys a personal full auto what happens when they quit being LEO for whatever reason or die?

I tried a search but couldn't find anything so if these questions have been answered feel free to just direct me to the correct links. Thanks.

If you enjoyed reading about "Building Full Auto" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
freakshow10mm
July 12, 2009, 09:57 PM
You cannot build a machine gun unless you are a Class 2 NFA weapon manufacturer, like my company. We can make machine guns out of sheer boredom. You cannot.

danprkr
July 12, 2009, 10:01 PM
That's what I thought, but some have alluded differently. Anyway, the line of thought led me to the other questions also, and I'd still like to know those answers if anyone has them.

Kindrox
July 12, 2009, 10:05 PM
if a LEO buys a personal full auto

You or a LEO can buy a pre-86 (pre-ban), subject to local law since with the right forms and tax stamp it is legal at the federal level.

But I think the gist of your question is if a LEO has a post 86 MG and then retires. Legally the MG never belonged to the LEO, it belonged to the department.

Legally the LEO officer has to give it back. A department in NY or somewhere back east got into some trouble by having department guns in the hands of non-active duty officers. Of course they got a slap on the wrist or less.

2RCO
July 12, 2009, 10:09 PM
We can make machine guns out of sheer boredom.

I think some guys in jail for 10 years or so did the same thing they just forgot the Class 02 part.

freakshow10mm
July 12, 2009, 11:03 PM
A post 86 machine gun is possession of the agency who may issue it to an officer. It is not a personal weapon nor ever can be. It is department property and will always be treated as such. As long as the officer is active they can have it. They retire, they must give it back to the agency.

If you own a fully transferable (pre 1986 domestic or pre 1968 import) machine gun and you die, it becomes part of the estate. The person in charge of executing your estate will either take possession on a Form 5 or transfer it to a lawful heir on a Form 5. If you have something like this in your collection, I would explicitly state your wishes and include a copy of the relevant Form 5 for them to fill out. If no one wants it, it must be destroyed and ATF notified or they can be notified and will pick it up.

danprkr
July 12, 2009, 11:38 PM
Well shoot. There goes my winter machine shop project :p

Anyway, thanks for your time and the info.

Actually I have another question, what about private security agencies? I know some of the 'contractors' the US military uses have full auto. How are they getting them?

freakshow10mm
July 12, 2009, 11:44 PM
They are subcontracted by the Atomic Energy Act or similar, which allows employees and subcontractors under that act to have them. Corporations like Blackwater USA are also 07/02 FFL/SOT so they can make them at will.

danprkr
July 12, 2009, 11:55 PM
Hmmmmmm, it wouldn't be the first corporation I've chartered. May be worthwhile some day when I have more money and time. Be a great part time business, build full autos and run around to shoots renting them out. May not make a profit, but a great way to enjoy your work if you have enough money to live on.

billhardy
July 13, 2009, 12:07 AM
YES YOU CAN MAKE A FULL AUTO.
YES IT IS ILLEGAL.
YES YOU WILL GO TO JAIL IF CAUGHT. YOU WILL ALSO NEVER OWN A FIREARM LEGALLY AGAIN.
IF YOU WANT TO GAMBLE, SEARCH THE GUN BOOK SALES, IT'S OUT THERE.
HOW TO ON SEVERAL GUNS INCLUDING AK47, M1 CARBINE, ETC.:banghead:

SHvar
July 13, 2009, 12:41 AM
LEOs cannot buy machineguns, their department can make a department authorized purchase (at a much lower price) of fully auto weapons.
I was looking at prices out of curiosity when I bought my last hat for work, a few hundred less than retail prices, which for this supplier were a few hundred less than the typical gunshops who were gouging for profits for so long, and still are.
The prices at that time for a S&W M&P15 (at this LEO supply store) were only $850-$900 if I remember right, but the gunshops were charging $1600. This place never raised their prices on the semiauto versions, and always had them in stock, but then again I wasnt interested in those rifle they carry in stock (S&W, Stag, Bushy, Colt, all were standard M-4s).

freakshow10mm
July 13, 2009, 12:41 AM
YES YOU CAN MAKE A FULL AUTO.
YES IT IS ILLEGAL.
In certain circumstances it is legal, such as my company being in the business of being a NFA weapon manufacturer. It is not a correct blanket statement that it is illegal. A way a civilian non-SOT can build one is if they are doing it for a government agency. They file the form, build it, transfer it to the agency and done. Completely legal. This is happening every day.

freakshow10mm
July 13, 2009, 12:45 AM
My company makes a standard flat top M16 automatic rifle for $995. For another $350 we include a case of ammunition and 6 magazines.

barnetmill
July 13, 2009, 12:54 AM
Here is provocative question: Let's say I have an boat registered in the united states. Can I build a full autoweapon on boat when I am not in us waters if I am on the high seas? The gun would be tossed overboard before re-entering american waters. Legal or not?

By the way my only boat is 17 ft mako that needs to be repair so I am not planning on doing this.

Quiet
July 13, 2009, 01:10 AM
US flagged vessels have to abide by US law, no matter where they are.

danprkr
July 13, 2009, 09:01 AM
billhardy - For the record - I do not intend, nor was I asking about doing anything illegal. Some stuff written in other threads on this forum made it seem as if people were making full auto for themselves. I assumed that they wouldn't be so stupid as to do it illegally and then brag about it on line. So I inquired out of curiosity that is all.

In reality I don't see a need for a civilian to have a full auto except for fun. Tactically from my perspective a civilian is hugely unlikely to be in a position to need FA. I do think they should be allowed, but I don't see a need tactically. If the situation arises when I need a full auto I'm betting there will be plenty of them laying on the ground.

CoRoMo
July 13, 2009, 12:49 PM
US flagged vessels have to abide by US law, no matter where they are.

Note the operative words.

In reality I don't see a need for a civilian to have a full auto except for fun.

If you'll look, there are many valid reasons other than fun, and I can see them all.

Corey
July 13, 2009, 04:30 PM
For those of us old enough to remember, prior to May, 1986 you could file an ATF Form 1 and build your own machine gun. If you got tired of it you could sell it on a regular Form 4 transfer. There are plenty of AR-15's that were legally converted this way.

Zoogster
July 13, 2009, 06:02 PM
Something else left out or forgotten by many is the ATF did NFA amnesties.

All illegaly held machineguns could be registered and become legal under an amnesty up until 1971.
That means guns held in violation of either the NFA of 1934 or the GCA of 1968 were still being legaly registered even up until 1971.

Prior to 1969 the military also allowed many trophies to be brought back from battle. Others illegaly brought some back even later, including select fire AKs and other weapons as late as the start of the Vietnam war that were then given the opportunity to be legaly registered under the ATF amnesties as late as 1971.
That means weapons illegaly possessed since before 1934, or aquired anytime since, including as late as the start of the Vietnam war, were legaly registered as late as 1971.
Whether legaly or illegaly purchased and then illegaly retained, illegaly aquired,
or illegaly manufactured, or illegaly converted from existing weaponry, they all were given the chance to be legaly registered during amnesties.
So there is weapons that would otherwise not match the legislation timeline that were legaly registered. Like foriegn full autos made between the 1968 GCA prohibition on importation of foriegn full autos, and the last 1971 amnesty.



Most similar programs in the world have been offered by a government to allow them to collect information on where items they do not like are being held. They enact harsh legislation for illegal possession, then allow people to escape the penalties through registration. Future legislation or actions at a later date then target those weapons or thier owners after the government feels the usefulness of the information gathering has approached its end.
As a result most people did not use the amnesties to register illegal weapons in the US, but some did.
Still the official estimates based on previously legal full auto sales, and war trophy bringbacks is that only a small fraction of illegaly held select fire weapons were registered.
The lack of success of the program from 1934-1971 or even until 1986 to register the majority of the weapons is probably why those who did register were not targeted later as normaly happens in the world.

Zoogster
July 13, 2009, 06:19 PM
Oh as an additional note to the above, some people that did use the amnesties were actualy targeted and prosecuted for violating the law, while others were allowed to legaly register thier weapons.
Whether you were prosecuted when trying to register or allowed to proceed was completely discretionary.
That is why in 1971 the Supreme Court put an end to such amnesties, saying they violated the 5th Amendment by requiring people to self-incriminate.

ChaoSS
July 13, 2009, 06:46 PM
You cannot build a machine gun unless you are a Class 2 NFA weapon manufacturer, like my company. We can make machine guns out of sheer boredom. You cannot.

Sorry to ask a stupid question, but can you just make guns for fun, or do they have to be transferred to a law enforcement company or other company such as blackwater that can own them? IE, can your company simply own those guns and not sell them? And if so, can they allow you to keep those guns, the way a Police department might allow their officers to keep and use those guns while actively employed?

Zoogster
July 13, 2009, 07:03 PM
Sorry to ask a stupid question, but can you just make guns for fun, or do they have to be transferred to a law enforcement company or other company such as blackwater that can own them? IE, can your company simply own those guns and not sell them? And if so, can they allow you to keep those guns, the way a Police department might allow their officers to keep and use those guns while actively employed?

Yes. They are dealer samples. Officialy they are legal to own so others can view them as potentialy buyers (LEO and government, and government contractors such as those licensed under the Atomic Energy Act as cited earlier.)
It is a demo model that the dealer can use to market future sales with.


However legal possession is tied to the SOT license. Once someone ceases to have that license they can no longer legaly possess those weapons. They must be sold/transfered to someone that can possess them or legaly destroyed.
The license must be renewed annualy. It must comply with ITAR. Complying with ITAR and renewel of the FFL costs a couple thousand yearly.

Further as a business you must legaly operate at a profit after so many years. Failure to operate a profit will result in revocation of your license.
To operate at a profit you need to find buyers and be moving inventory, more than the costs associated with the business.

divemedic
July 14, 2009, 09:35 AM
Actually, I can think of a way to make a full auto weapon.

Buy an AR-15.
Install M-16 bolt carrier, FCG, and DIAS. The DIAS is the 'machine gun' under NFA. You have just made an AR-15 into FA. Legally. Perhaps that is what the others meant?

freakshow10mm
July 14, 2009, 12:50 PM
Sorry to ask a stupid question, but can you just make guns for fun, or do they have to be transferred to a law enforcement company or other company such as blackwater that can own them?
I can make a machine gun just for the hell of it. I can stockpile them in any quantity I want to. I don't need an excuse or reason, I just can. They don't have to be transferred to LE or government agency.

IE, can your company simply own those guns and not sell them?
Yes. As a manufacturer we can make them to do research, testing, use them for evaluating other products, etc. We make machine guns mainly to test the integrity of our suppressors with full automatic fire. We aren't really selling them but if a LE agency wants one we can sell it to them. In reality if you want to be a Class 2 so you can sell machine guns to LE, you're wasting your time and money. The practicality of it is useless and very specialized LE teams might have machine guns in their arsenal, but actual use, even as an officer being equipped with one for a drug raid, etc is very, very rare. Most agencies want a demo or small country agencies buy one to play with during range time. The actual LE sales are very few. You will not make money dealing in machine guns to LE. Most Class 2 SOTs make suppressors and SBR, SBS. Even as an SOT in MI I can't make SBR or SBS so that market isn't available for me. I've thought of relocating the SOT to Wisconsin so I can make and sell SBR and SBS but the additional costs down there are horrendous compared to the UP.

And if so, can they allow you to keep those guns, the way a Police department might allow their officers to keep and use those guns while actively employed?
Yes the company can keep them in inventory as long as we maintain our SOT status. There are SOTs that have been in business since the 70s that still have several machine guns they made prior tot he 86 ban that they are sitting on. Norell for instance has several hundred 10/22 full auto receivers that he made before the 86 ban. He sells 10 per year at $10,000 per unit. $100K a year for work done 20 some years ago. Not too shabby. He also makes cans and is one of the oldest Class 2 SOTs in the country.

Carl N. Brown
July 14, 2009, 01:18 PM
The DIAS is the machinegun but to be legal, the DIAS must have been registered as an NFA item. And I don't believe ATF accepts agruments about unregistered DIASes being grandfathered anymore. (DIAS drop in auto sear)

Art Eatman
July 14, 2009, 01:20 PM
divemedic, that's a highly optimistic view of "the way things are". There are guys in the Graybar Hotel for doing just that sort of thing. Absent the appropriate licensing, there is no legal way to create any fully-automatic weapon from what was previously a semi-automatic weapon.

freakshow10mm
July 14, 2009, 01:25 PM
Divemedic, you don't need an M16 FCG, that's the part of the RDIAS to have that function.

Art, a registered drop in auto sear is perfectly legal to own and installing it in any AR15 is legal and does not change the status of a semi auto gun. The machine gun is the DIAS and only and always the DIAS. You can put the DIAS in any AR15 rifle you want and the AR15 becomes the accessory to the machine gun. With the DIAS installed the host weapon is treated as a machine gun. There are thousands of RDIAS and Lightning Links out there.

divemedic
July 14, 2009, 01:38 PM
1 I never said use an unregistered DIAS

2 You don't need the entire FCG, but you do need the selector, the hammer, and the bolt carrier.

3 I am in the market for a DIAS right now. There are tons of them out there, and when I find one I want that is for sale, I fully intend to buy one as my latest NFA item.

stchman
July 14, 2009, 01:43 PM
I don't know why the big hub-bub about full auto guns by the federal government.

I have spoke to many a gun expert and for the most part they agree that full auto is a big ammo waster. They have said MOST of the shot are high.

I have also been to many a public range and seen some folks bump fire a semi-auto with a short butt stock. It was very impressive.

Here is a YouTube video of a guy that is really accurate bump firing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIC8SMttjjo

As far as I know bump firing is not illegal.

danprkr
July 15, 2009, 08:35 AM
I don't know why the big hub-bub about full auto guns by the federal government.


Some one here has a quote in their signature that defines tyranny as, "That which is legal for the government but illegal for the people." I'm not sure I have the quote exact, but that is the idea. It is also the "big hub-bub" on whether or not FA should be legal for civilians.

c5_nc
July 15, 2009, 10:02 AM
Our LE agency is equiped with M16/M4s, most of them federal govt surplus we recieved free. We have been replacing several each year with new Colt M4s, which cost us $780 new. Your certainly not going to make money selling to LEOs, civilian Colt semi-auto M4 clones sale for $1200-1600. Manufactor would not want to put a whole in reciever and install full auto FCG they would be $1600-2000 into a weapon that Colt sales to LE for $780.

freakshow10mm
July 15, 2009, 10:30 AM
Yup, even at $995 each I can't compete with Colt. The local agencies would buy from me simply because I'm local but I can't make a living off that.)

If you enjoyed reading about "Building Full Auto" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!