Loaded gun in the gun shop!?


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KBintheSLC
July 13, 2009, 02:57 PM
This morning I stopped by the local gun shop to drop off a problematic J-frame for repairs. While I was talking to a clerk at the counter, a fella was checking out a rifle on the used rack. I noticed he was pointing the muzzle around the room covering many of us with it as he examined the gun. He appeared to take for granted that the rifle was not loaded as many do when visiting the toy store. A brief thought passed through my head as I witnessed the event... "I hate looking down the business end of a gun".

I silently swallowed my concerns and continued to converse with the clerk for another minute or two when a voice behind me suddenly squawked "holy _____ this gun is loaded!!!". When I turned around to see the commotion, there stood the same guy with the same rifle holding a single, live .303 British soft-point that he had just plucked from the chamber. :what:

Needless to say, the manager of the shop was more than slightly concerned. I am assuming that whoever the employee was who brought that gun out for display will be waiting in line at the temp service soon.

Anyway, I just wanted to share this experience with you folks so that we can all remember that a gun is still a gun, even when it is at the gun shop. People get shot with "empty" guns from time to time. So, even if your gun is "empty", please treat it as if it were not. Always check the gun personally before handling it. And, if you see some yahoo covering you with a muzzle, by all means speak up.

Best regards.

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Forklift352
July 13, 2009, 03:21 PM
I all ways call them on pointing a gun at me....
I smile and say "point it at me again and Ill point mine at you."
They some times say "Oh,its not loaded." "keep your shirt on"
I smile and say " Ya,neither is mine pal.":scrutiny:

rainbowbob
July 13, 2009, 03:28 PM
I smile and say "point it at me again and Ill point mine at you."
They some times say "Oh,its not loaded." "keep your shirt on"
Without smiling I say " Mine is."

Fixed it for ya.


Having been robbed at gun-point, I have a thing about people pointing guns at me.

I'm weird like that.

Sam1911
July 13, 2009, 03:46 PM
Can we sticky this somehow? Maybe create some automated link so that every time there's a thread where someone is pointing out how muzzle discipline isn't a big deal in gun shops and how we all aught to not be so tight-arsed about safety -- this thread automatically links in?

-Sam, who remains tight-arsed about gun safety.

mcdonl
July 13, 2009, 03:54 PM
I have said this before in another of these threads but I like repeating it, I had an IDPA instructor state... "If you point your gun at me, I will assume you want to engage in a gunfight and I will act accordingly...."

I thought that said it all.

Leroy

mcdonl
July 13, 2009, 03:55 PM
Sam... I follow the rule of not even allowing ammo in my reloading/cleaning/gawking bench or area... I only load my guns for use (Carry, hunting or range.....)... Cant be stressed enough.

EVERY one of the accidents posted lately could have been avoided if the simple rules were followed.

easy
July 13, 2009, 04:05 PM
Rule #1. Always.

Kwanger
July 13, 2009, 04:14 PM
Thankfully, I've not ever been robbed at gunpoint....but I also have a thing about people pointing guns at me.

This idiot in the store had no manners....but similarly, what kind of store are they running to allow that to happen, given they know full well that these bad mannered, unsafe idiots come in day in, day out. Not sure which is worse.

Norinco982lover
July 13, 2009, 04:19 PM
Thanks for the reminder.

Be safe out there, guys!

~Norinco

Zoogster
July 13, 2009, 04:23 PM
Some people are just conditioned stupid in our society.

You say "watch where you point that thing" and some morons are likely to pull the trigger just to demonstrate it is unloaded while telling you to relax.
So telling someone to "watch where they point" that may be even more likely to result in it being fired in a gunshop.

Too many people are used to being looked after like a helpless flock these days. They expect others to make things safe, rely on LEDs, computer readouts, vehicle safeties or other things which can fail rather than doing any more than necessary themselves.
It is why I cringed when I heard about them making computerized automatic braking using sensors in some vehicles. I couldn't help but think "Well now numerous idiots will simply expect the computer to brake for them most of the time". Of course the consequences of that are clear.
An extension of the same problem, resulting from such nannying of the population is that they expect chambers to be empty and guns unloaded by others when they pick them up and handle them at a gun shop.
They are so inclined they will even point it in many poor places, and pull the trigger without checking to make sure the gun is unloaded.

theotherwaldo
July 13, 2009, 05:08 PM
I've seen six ADs in my life. Three were in gun shops or gun auctions.

Every time a firearm enters my hands I check its state.

Every time.

-And I hate being swept.

chrisbfd
July 13, 2009, 05:18 PM
I was shooting at Arizona range in Ft Lauderdale. I turned around to throw out spent cases and here's this guy watching his buddy shoot, holding his rifle in one hand pointed right at me!
He gives me this stupid grin and shrugged his shoulders, and went back to being a spectator.
Could I construe that as a threat?

ny32182
July 13, 2009, 05:43 PM
Sweeping in gun shops may be bad manners, but it is going to happen and there is nothing that any of us can do about it without requiring everyone who walks through the door to take firearms safety classes. Not everyone who walks into a gun shop is aware of all the safety rules, and shops have to be prepared for that as well as the other more experienced patrons.

Have a loaded rifle on a readily accessible rack in the middle of the shop is the shop's fault, and is totally inexcusable. That is an F-Up of the highest order.

That said, I personally check every gun that I pick up, or is handed to me in a gun shop, as the first order of business, with the muzzle in the air. I leave the action open unless testing the trigger or something. I try not to sweep anyone while examining the gun, but if there is a large crowd around, it is briefly sometimes all but unavoidable.

Making statments inferring that you are going to shoot someone over a safety violation are not in the best interests of furthering the teaching of safety guidelines, in my opinion. The recipient is going to see it as a (laughable) empty threat, and empty threats are not going to teach a newbie about gun handling.

vicdotcom
July 13, 2009, 05:48 PM
Store owner once told me that he had a problem with some freaks coming in with a few rounds and placing them into random rifles. It would happen a few times a year but never found out who it was. Eventually they started putting locks on all the rifles. One guy seemed to think it was a bunch of antis that didnt want the shop in their area.

So sometimes it isn't someone working at the store who does it, but they will still have liability.

currahee1
July 13, 2009, 05:50 PM
The one that really gets me is the person at the range that gets a jam. They stop pointing their weapon at the target and are now holding it side ways looking at the chamber and trying to figure out what to do. They are not even thinking that they are pointing a loaded weapon at all the people shooting in the booths next to them.

vicdotcom
July 13, 2009, 05:52 PM
The one that really gets me is the person at the range that gets a jam. They stop pointing their weapon at the target and are now holding it side ways looking at the chamber and trying to figure out what to do.
I saw some guy do this when their Desert Eagle 50 jammed. He got kicked out of the range.

Floppy_D
July 13, 2009, 05:52 PM
I had a GYSGT at the Camp Allen gun range hand me a loaded rifle, twice on the same day. Anyone can get complacent. Thanks for the safety reminder.

Store owner once told me that he had a problem with some freaks comming in with a few rounds and placing them into random rifles.

Yikes!! :what: :what:

clemsonu0219
July 13, 2009, 05:57 PM
I have had a gun to my head before, I assume it was loaded. Its not fun. I would get extremely 'offensive', or call it 'defensive' if someone even pointed an unloaded gun at me.

Not saying I would shoot them or anything, but they would know REAL quick not to do that again. Close call OP, good thing he didn't ask if he could 'dry fire'.

Two of the loudest sounds in the world come from a gun... one is when one goes off and its not supposed to, one is when its supposed to go off and doesn't.

rainbowbob
July 13, 2009, 06:34 PM
...Sweeping in gun shops may be bad manners, but it is going to happen and there is nothing that any of us can do about it...

Farting in a gun store might be bad manners...

Sweeping someone in a gun shop - or anywhere else - is NOT bad manners. What it IS is an ignorant and/or willful disregard for common sense and a basic consideration of the safety of others.

Gun stores CAN do something about it.

For example:

They can train their people to remind every person to whom they hand a firearm to "Watch the muzzle and don't point it anyone."

...or...

How about a large sign in neon orange on the door saying:

"IF YOU HANDLE A FIREARM IN THIS STORE - DO NOT POINT IT AT ANYONE!"

..or, perhaps...

"IF YOU POINT A FIREARM AT ANYONE IN THIS STORE - YOU MAY FIND ONE POINTED BACK AT YOU."

...or maybe just...

"IF YOU POINT A FIREARM AT ANYONE IN THIS STORE - YOU WILL BE IMMEDIATELY ESCORTED OUT OF THE STORE FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY."

CoRoMo
July 13, 2009, 06:43 PM
How about a large sign...
"IF YOU POINT A FIREARM AT ANYONE IN THIS STORE - YOU MAY FIND ONE POINTED BACK AT YOU."

That is a very good idea, seriously!

THE DARK KNIGHT
July 13, 2009, 06:51 PM
Having been robbed at gun-point, I have a thing about people pointing guns at me.

I'm weird like that.

Exactly. I was held at gunpoint ~8 months ago, while armed. It had a *slight* impression on me and I don't quite think I'd react the same if it happened again.

TCB in TN
July 13, 2009, 07:06 PM
Keep waiting to hear about someone shot that way. Hate to expect the worst from people, but can see some rabid anti intentionally loading one to make it happen!

Shadow 7D
July 13, 2009, 08:09 PM
Was at a shop once where the owner asked a customer to put a rifle down. The guy asked what? The owner told him that he was done watching him wave the rifle around the store and now he was either going to buy something or walk out the door.

mgregg85
July 13, 2009, 11:03 PM
I really hate it when people get mad at you for telling them not to point a gun at you. I'm fairly certain they would be rather upset if I drew out my concealed pistol and pointed it at them while I was casually examining it.

Quilbilly
July 14, 2009, 03:09 AM
This is why we have our rules. Because the gun IS always loaded.

larry_minn
July 14, 2009, 03:33 AM
Regards putting ammo in gun. I was friends with a FFL who did a lot of gun shows. (he is not retired from that)
He was very safety minded. EVERY gun got checked when he set up his table (with guns that were in his locked van/in his locked garage from last weekend show)
So on setup everything is unloaded/he does not sell ammo/so none for rifles along. He shows the rifle many times and checks it. 2nd day in morning (before show) he checks EVERY gun again. (It is not unknown for nightime security to be checking stuff out)
At end of show he packs stuff up and goes home. Early in week a friend comes by to buy that rifle (that he had looked at before) So they dig it out of (the locked van in locked garage) Well the rifle is LOADED. The only way that could happen is for someone to have PUT a live rd in it. (that they had to bring)

bootless
July 14, 2009, 04:15 AM
I was at a local shop the other day and I asked one of the guys behind the counter if I could look at a Mark III. He pulled it out of the case went to check the chamber before he handed it to me. For some reason the action was stuck so he started yanking on it while he pointed it directly at my chest. I moved as quickly as I could out of the way. He looked at me like I was an idiot. I would of expected more from a worker at a gun shop. There's a lot of unsafe people out there

RoostRider
July 14, 2009, 04:48 AM
The gun shop is open to the public. They need to leave the weapons accessible to the public. You cannot rely on the public to be informed of gun safety. The gun shop cannot guarantee your life that the guns will remain unloaded (Worker may be stupid, or Joe public may load a round "just to see" or for malevolent reasons). You are cognizant of gun safety. Therefore it sort of relies on you to treat every gun as if it were loaded.... which is to say, act like it really is a big deal whenever someone sweeps you with a barrel... in a gun shop or otherwise....

Glad it worked out OK for you..... and I have been the guy getting swept at the gun shop.... and I didn't speak up, just got out of the way looking irritated.... next time I will.... a simple "Hey, rule #1- Treat every gun as if it is loaded", should suffice without seeming too 'paranoid' or judgmental.... I think 'ignorant' folks might take OK to that and maybe even pay attention to the 'new rule' they learned... maybe?

zombienerd
July 14, 2009, 05:05 AM
I know if I owned a gun shop, I'd have a locked inner door with a buzzer. In order to pass the inner door you'd have to read the four laws of my store before I let you in.

Same thing goes for if I owned a shooting range. Every person through the door that wasn't a repeat customer would have to watch a 5 minute safety video before stepping through the door to the line.

bigfatdave
July 14, 2009, 07:53 AM
Too many people are used to being looked after like a helpless flock these days. It is getting pretty pitiful. Not applying common sense is becoming far too common.
You cannot rely on the public to be informed of gun safetyBull. Realizing that pointing a firearm at a human being is impolite is simple enough for anyone who understands what a gun is. I am tired of making excuses for the stupid and ignorant, particularly the willfully stupid and ignorant.
One shop I visit fairly frequently seems to have brand-new shooters in there more than others. That's fine, I was a brand-new shooter not that long ago myself. I'm willing to make ONE polite correction, along the lines of "excuse me, do you mind pointing that thing somewhere besides at me?" ... after that I get a lot less polite, I know that the owner/operator gives a "handgun handling for dummies" brief to anyone he doesn't recognize BEFORE he hands over a pistol ... so my polite warning is a second reminder. The last time I was re-swept after a polite reminder, I went with "if you're so sure it is unloaded, how about you point it at yourself while you monkey with the trigger?" The pistol was returned to the case rapidly, and the owner apologized for handing it over while he ran paperwork, which was good, because I was about to leave 150 rounds on his counter and leave after he handed an idiot a handgun and wandered into the back.

1911Tuner
July 14, 2009, 08:59 AM
So telling someone to "watch where they point" that may be even more likely to result in it being fired in a gunshop.

Yup.

Years ago, whilst workin' behind a counter...guy walks in with a Winchester 70. .270 caliber, seems like. Carried the rifle in one hand...horizontally. Swept 3 people before he even got through the door. Me an' the other man on the job caution him to open the breech. He says not to worry. Not loaded, sez Bubba. Points it up at a slight angle and pulls trigger.

BANG!

10 people in the store immediately hit the deck.

The smell of burned nitrocellulose hangs thick in the air. A little smoke.

Stony silence ensued for about 10 seconds with muttered curses followed by louder curses.

Bullet passes within a couple inches of an accountant who worked in the office above the shop, just missing his foot. Killed the light fixture above his head, and went on through the ceiling, and was later determined that it was stopped by the joisting.

jaholder1971
July 14, 2009, 09:05 AM
Needless to say, the manager of the shop was more than slightly concerned. I am assuming that whoever the employee was who brought that gun out for display will be waiting in line at the temp service soon.


If the customer simply picked a rifle off the rack and found it loaded, there's nothing to say some idiot or nutjob didn't load it AFTER the employee put it on the rack.

You wouldn't believe some of the things some gun shop "customers" will do.

subierex
July 14, 2009, 09:26 AM
I don't go to gun shops very often, but see this nearly every time. Let's face it, there's a large segment of the gun-owning population in this country that doesn't take gun safety very seriously. Sad.

lebowski
July 14, 2009, 10:07 AM
It always amazes me how many people seem to think the 4 rules don't apply in gun stores, employees included.

MattTheHat
July 14, 2009, 02:04 PM
Having a weapon pointed at me is inherently dangerous and my instinct is that I would have to take *some* action. As already mentioned, telling the guy off doesn't work. Ducking doesn't work, as it's very likely that my doing so will put someone else in the line of fire (quite possibly a family member or friend).

If the offender is within arms' length I don't think I would be able to overcome the instinct to grab the gun and MAKE it safe. I'm honestly not trying to be a smart acre, but when a gun of any sort is within my range of grasp, I'm very much waiting to grab it if need be. Maybe it comes from teaching my kids to shoot and having to be ready to redirect the gun if they pointed it in an unsafe direction. (Which they always seem to do a few times.)

If I were swept at any greater distance, I think my response would be, (in my best imitation of my father's angry voice) to say something like: "Hey @sshole, don't point that gun at me!" If it said loudly and directly enough, the reaction is likely to be compliance. If the gun isn't moved, or if is pointed back at me, I would be moving as quickly as possible in order to take the weapon before the idiot has a chance to "show me it's not loaded" by pulling the trigger.

Fortunately I've never had this experience. But again, I think my immediate response would be to physically remove the gun from the idiot.

-Matt

fase3
July 14, 2009, 06:39 PM
First the wife and I have no children-I'm a active 68 year old living on a farm in a rural area of south La. When you walk into my house the first thing you see is a sign that reads "Treat all the guns in this house as being loaded-Because they are!" No problems!

CoRoMo
July 14, 2009, 06:41 PM
So how am I supposed to clean my glock?

Follow the rules...


Before cleaning your gun, make absolutely sure that it is unloaded. The gun's action should be open during the cleaning process. Also, be sure that no ammunition is present in the cleaning area.
ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
When it comes time to pull that trigger, point the gun in a direction that would be safe to fire the gun. What you're aiming at should be able to safely take a bullet.

Sam1911
July 14, 2009, 06:41 PM
So how am I supposed to clean my glock?

If it is always loaded then pulling the trigger (required to clean a glock) will discharge a round.

Every time this thread comes up, some smart fellow has to come post this line. :rolleyes:

So, when you've cleared your Glock and you're going to clean it, do you go get your wife or kids to stand in front of it while you pull the trigger? Point it at your own head? If so, soon we'll have one less guy around to post that comment! :D

No, no, of course not. You point it in a SAFE direction. And, it's in your control. You just cleared it (right?), and you're controlling the muzzle direction while you dry fire it (right?) so you're minimizing the risk as well as minimizing the potential damage caused by skipping a step (like ejecting that live round).

So, with the exception of the required pulling of the trigger, you're STILL treating it in a safe manner -- as a loaded gun.

Now, this thread is about guns in OTHER folk's hands, OUT of your control, possibly loaded (as the O.P. shows), and in fact, generally unfamiliar to the person holding it. So what does the fact that you have to depress the trigger of your Glock while you're cleaning it, in your safe area have to do with the proper handling of firearms in a gun store?

-Sam

glockdriver
July 14, 2009, 07:16 PM
I knew a shop that had a standard bullseye target mounted up in the top corner of the shop . Hand guns were checked by the store clerk before it was handed to you, slide open, mag checked or removed and then you were told to use the mounted target to aim at

rondog
July 14, 2009, 07:38 PM
That was my first thought about the OP, that "somebody" may have loaded a live round into the rifle and put it back on the rack. Nothing like a good old fashioned shooting in a gun shop to get it closed down.

There's a lot of sickos in this world, like those who put poison in Tylenol bottles, or razor blades in Halloween apples, etc. We've all heard the stories. Who's to say an anti-gun group or activist wouldn't stoop to slipping live rounds into guns on accessible racks in gun stores? Of course, they'd have to know enough about guns in the first place to get the right cartridges in the right weapons.

1911Tuner
July 14, 2009, 08:02 PM
Every time this thread comes up, some smart fellow has to come post this line.

I agree, and then they come back and say something like:

Indeed.

But the gun is no longer loaded.

And it's picking nits and arguing technicalities simply for the sake of arguing...and it's a waste of bandwidth. So...I'm deleting the posts. We understand the meaning of the rule. I suspect that he does too.

rhenriksen
July 14, 2009, 09:18 PM
An old indoor range I used to frequent has a deep gouge in the aluminum framing around the acoustic ceiling tiles. Apparently a customer came in off the range with his pistol, and was sweeping the owner (who was behind the counter) while yaking. The owner said, 'Quit pointing that gun at me!!'.

Customer sez, 'Don't worry - it's not loaded!' Points it at the ceiling, and pulls the trigger. BANG! Bullet ricochets off the ceiling tile frame, goes through a wall into the workshop, and bounces off a couple of walls before stopping.

Owner threw the guy out, said to never come back.

Good thing it wasn't loaded!

Landpimp
July 14, 2009, 09:21 PM
I get the chance to go thru 1000's of agency evidence guns a year, these are all guns that come from agencys, have been cleared and sold to my friend, from NIB 1940's S&W's to piles of Ravens/Jennings etc and all kinds of odd crap we have found more than a few with a round in the chamber still!

MikkOwl
July 14, 2009, 09:24 PM
A reasonable rule for handling guns is that in regards to people other than yourself, your gun is always loaded. But if you inspect the barrel and you're satisfied and all that, by all means, sweep yourself :)

As for gun stores, the following points might alleviate the problem:

1. A few disclaimers/signs.
2. Store clerks always checking the firearm before handing to a customer (maybe they do that already? I've never been to a gun store in USA).
3. The store clerk keeping tabs on where the customer aims the thing, giving instant notice if they even begin to look like they are doing naughty things with the barrel.

The attitude needs to change a bit, be more 'duh!' and reinforced everywhere. Maybe get the message out more so even people who never shoots heard about these rules and how serious they are.

1911Tuner
July 14, 2009, 09:38 PM
Now then. Let's review the 4 rules. Paraphrased.

Yes. It's loaded, and until I see for myself that it's not loaded, it's always loaded.
If you tell me that it's not loaded, I won't believe you. If I tell you that it's not loaded, I don't expect you to believe me.

Don't point the gun at anything that you don't want shot. Especially, don't point it at me. I don't care if the safety is on. If you point it at me, I won't be kind.

The trigger is what makes the gun fire. If you want the gun to fire, pull the trigger. If you don't...Don't. Just that simple. If you pull the trigger without clearing the gun first, you must expect the gun to fire, and you must be prepared to accept the consequences if/when it does.

Don't fire unless you're sure that you want whatever the gun is pointed at to be shot...and that if you miss or shoot through that which you want shot...that you won't hit something else that you don't want shot. If you're firing in self defense, and you notice a child directly behind your attacker...don't shoot. Never shoot at a sound or a form...no matter how scared you are...unless you're 101% sure that the form presents a threat to you by refusing to advance and be recognized.

jad0110
July 14, 2009, 10:25 PM
It is why I cringed when I heard about them making computerized automatic braking using sensors in some vehicles. I couldn't help but think "Well now numerous idiots will simply expect the computer to brake for them most of the time". Of course the consequences of that are clear.

Yep, I was thinking the same thing the other day. These numerous idiots may also hop into another car, forgetting it doesn't have the automatic self-applying brakes for mind-numb moron feature, plowing into the back of the car in front of them.

It's as if a whole segment of the population has decided that thinking is too hard, especially now that the nanny state is "thinking" more for them as each day passes. Sad.

As for getting swept, it happens all too often in my area, but at least most of the employees of gunshops I frequent open the action before handing the gun over. I return the courtesey when handing it back. Interestingly, I've observed better trigger and muzzle discipline among the younger shooters around here. Overall though, gun safety doesn't appear to be too high up on the list of priorities among gun owners in eastern NC. Here are just a few of the classics I've either witnessed or heard about:

1. Saw a lady shoot herself in the foot with a 22 during a CCW course; needless to say she didn't pass the class. Pointing the gun at your foot with your finger on the trigger when the gun slips down onto said trigger finger will do that every time.

2. Friend was at a local range with a fairly big crowd. A woman a few lanes down was shooting a pistol with 2nd srike capability (he didn't know what exactly) when suddenly she took a step or two backwards, complained "durr, it's not working" and proceeded to point the gun at the ceiling while cycling the trigger, with predictable results. The range officer was rushing her when a new whole appeared in the ceiling above. No one hurt, fortunately; she did get kicked out. Understandably, my friend and most of the other shooters had had enough excitment for one day and packed up and left. IIRC, she swept one side of the line before pointing the gun at the ceiling.

3. My CCW instructor related a story that happened back around 2000 when a show off with a shoulder holster did a quick draw during class. He got one warning, but Mr. Doofus went for his gun one more time ... and managed to pull the trigger while unholstering the weapon. The instructor said he heard and felt the bullet whiz a few inches past his ear. :what:

4. Range employee I know told me about a guy who was shooting a autopistol of some sort when he had a FTF. First thing genius does is innocently peer down the barrel. Quick thinking by the guy next to him probably saved his life: he slapped the muzzle away just as the hangfire let loose. Another close one.

5. My coworker's husband was a member of a local hunting club. He was driving his truck down a dirt road when he came upon a good friend heading in the other direction. Both men pull their trucks to the side, leaving about a car width's room between them while they "shot the poop". As they were talking, a fairly young buck came out onto the road about 75 yards down the road. They watched him for a minute or two, just standing there when suddenly they heard a shot; at about that same moment the deer popped up and disappeared into the woods. Scared the mess out of them. Instinctively, they both turned their heads 180 degrees to see a nutjob standing in the middle of the road with his rifle about 75 yards in the other direction. Yep, this wacko fired a shot between the two trucks they were sitting in at a deer 150 yards away. Don't remember the words that were exchanged, but basically nutjob didn't understand what he had done wrong, afterall no one was hurt :scrutiny: .

It cannot be said too often: You can't fix stupid.

MikkOwl
July 14, 2009, 10:33 PM
I don't know what the problem is exactly. Something intelligence related. Unable to foresee or account for what could happen (but has not yet happened), acting more on impulse, instinct and habit.

This is a problem for gun ownership, certainly. Perhaps gun ownership should require passing some reasonable class (with AWESOME magnum power, comes great responsibility ;) ) in the same way drivers licensing works (just hopefully of muuuch higher quality),.

LRaccuracy
July 14, 2009, 11:56 PM
I walked into a gun shop (someplace in texas) in 1980 and asked to see a revolver in the display case. As always I checked the weapon to see if it was loaded. This time it paid off.. The revolver was loaded with a single round in the cylinder.

KBintheSLC
July 15, 2009, 03:33 PM
This is a problem for gun ownership, certainly. Perhaps gun ownership should require passing some reasonable class (with AWESOME magnum power, comes great responsibility ) in the same way drivers licensing works (just hopefully of muuuch higher quality),.

I understand your concern, but I disagree. Licensing schemes are not the answer. I don't know what your laws are in Sweden, but here in the USA, gun ownership is considered a fundamental right... it is not some special privilege reserved only for those who can pass some predetermined aptitude test.

Driving a car on the other hand is not a fundamental right in our book. When you say things like this... "just hopefully of muuuch higher quality"... remember that even though Americans have about the same number of guns as we do cars in our country (between 325 and 375 million of each - more guns than cars actually), car accident deaths are about 4 times higher than gun murders and accidental shootings combined. Automobile fatalities are now the #1 cause of death for people under 35 years of age.

In other words, gun licensing and driver licensing are two totally different games. They should not be intermingled. After all, we cannot remove the fibers of stupidity through legislations and bureaucracies. Gun licensing is merely a vessel for government control and potential tyranny. I would rather take my chances with the stupids.

MikkOwl
July 15, 2009, 03:43 PM
I've heard and read a lot about the quality of drivers education and the requirements for drivers licenses, and it is probably the worst I've heard of in the industrialized world. Americans start driving young (when judgment is still not developed) and with insufficient training. An attitude towards it comes as a result of that, and that is not taking it so seriously.. The amount of accidents is probably strongly correlated to this.

As for Sweden, gun culture here and laws, I wrote a post about it just yesterday. Have a look :) http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5755683&postcount=4084

Indeed, it is a right there. I understand that. I have this wish of having as many trained and qualified people out there with guns, with as few idiots who don't care or take it seriously as possible without. I heard many states require a permit for concealed carry, which means some kind of license to carry. That's not a bad idea in itself. But at the same time it sounds like almost no one has a license in those states, so society doesn't get the benefit widespread carry could bring. There's just too many states and regulations for a poor Swede to keep up with..

EDIT: There are regulations in place. Criminals cannot legally own firearms (in some places at least), restricted areas for carry, etc. So the right is already being infringed, but for good reasons at the same time (in the case of hardcore criminals, oh and mentally ill too?)

EDIT 2: I'd love to look into how well an armed vs not so armed populace can fight an increasingly sneaky malfunctioning government. In many ways I think the US gov is there already. One of the main problems is organizing resistance, and the second one is being inferior in equipment to organizations such as law enforcement and military which do have very heavy weaponry and tactics.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
July 15, 2009, 04:09 PM
i got laughed at by a guy who was looking at buying a WASR 10 a while back at my favorite pawn shop. i was buying some ammo and the guy next to me asked to see the AK.

the employee took it from the rack and made sure it was clear and handed it over to the guy next to me who proceeded to mount the rifle and have the muzzel right infront of my face then swept my head and torso a few times so i grabbed the muzzle and aimed it away from me. he then got mad and asked my problem. i told him i don't care if the rifle is unloaded i don't like having it pointed at me. he got all butt hurt handed the rifle back to the employee and left the store.

the store manager who i am friends with thanked me because he was making other customers uneasy and doesn't want the employee's to get in the middle of these things.

MikkOwl
July 15, 2009, 04:12 PM
That's a bad attitude. It's their store, their property and their business. It's up to them to make sure the customers are not subjected to unsafe practices with store owned property. Just firmly tell the customers to never let the muzzle aim at another person.

scott.308
July 15, 2009, 04:26 PM
That is just plain stupid. Things like that should never happen.

RoostRider
July 15, 2009, 04:40 PM
Too many people are used to being looked after like a helpless flock these days.
It is getting pretty pitiful. Not applying common sense is becoming far too common.
I could not agree more.....
You cannot rely on the public to be informed of gun safety
Bull. Realizing that pointing a firearm at a human being is impolite is simple enough for anyone who understands what a gun is. I am tired of making excuses for the stupid and ignorant, particularly the willfully stupid and ignorant.

While I agree with you entirely philosophically, you either haven't dealt with the public at all or you are just angry (justifiably) and spouting off.

If you rely on Joe Public to know proper safety before picking up a gun (which they may, or may not have any experience with), you are putting your life in some unknowns hands.

Unless you taut more regulations to keep people from even handling a firearm without some sort of certificate of firearm safety education, you have to deal with the reality of this. (even with a certificate of safety your pushing your luck with Joe Public)

You are responsible for your own safety, simply by virtue of the fact that some others will not be safe around you.... guaranteed... should there be penalties for acting in a wreckles manner to those around you, it certainly could be argued..... but even that wouldn't put your face back on after the rifle goes off...

Some people are criminally stupid, which is to say, so stupid that they are criminally negligent without intent..... how can you not weigh this in when dealing with everything from crossing the street to being around others handling guns?....

jhco
July 15, 2009, 05:18 PM
Deleted

jhco
July 15, 2009, 05:54 PM
Deleted

thorazine
July 15, 2009, 06:00 PM
Funny, both those guns look loaded to me.

In the second picture...

The cylinder is void of cartridges and you can see the chamber is clear.


Sorry -- you don't get any more unloaded than that.




Please answer my question -- how do you react in a gun store?


How do you respond to someone that asks you to show them a clear weapon? Based on your logic you could never hand someone an unloaded gun.


You would not be able to shoot at an outdoor range -- because your gun is always loaded.

For it would be unsafe to have shooters walking to their targets with loaded guns sitting on the bench.


Have you sold a firearm and had to ship it?

Then you shipped a loaded firearm -- which is unlawful right?

Zoogster
July 15, 2009, 06:05 PM
Unless you taut more regulations to keep people from even handling a firearm without some sort of certificate of firearm safety education, you have to deal with the reality of this. (even with a certificate of safety your pushing your luck with Joe Public)

The problem is there is already too many regulations resulting in a less educated population.
Children once learned gun safety at a younger age in general. Many High Schools once taught gun safety.
Because of all the regulations and restrictions placed on firearms you have a higher number of people without a clue who are handling firearms based on what they have seen in movies, games etc.

Then when the politicians do start requiring even more regulations to purchase, they often consist of so many unnecessary and unrealistic questions that the important ones are forgotten with all the rest shortly after the test.
Instead of remembering the 4 rules, they forget the politician created and anti influenced 99 rules.

jhco
July 15, 2009, 06:05 PM
Deleted

jhco
July 15, 2009, 06:11 PM
I don't care to argue about what you felt like I said.

bigfatdave
July 15, 2009, 06:20 PM
If you rely on Joe Public to know proper safety before picking up a gun (which they may, or may not have any experience with), you are putting your life in some unknowns hands.Nope. I'm not buying that the concept of "end with hole make hurty" is beyond common sense. Anyone too foolish to figure that out on their own or with one polite reminder isn't worth being around. For that matter, how hard is it to find some basic gun safety information BEFORE wandering into a shop and waving firearms about? In 2009 there really isn't an excuse for complete ignorance - either look it up online or hit the library. For that matter, asking for some pointers from the employees is fine, but picking up a gun and having zero muzzle control is simple unacceptable.
Perhaps it is time to stop making allowances for those so foolish that they endanger the public.

Shadow 7D
July 15, 2009, 06:34 PM
OK, so now that the butt hurt contest on loaded vs. unleaded guns is commenced, how bout we formulate some nice responses, like

Point that away from me. Response
Ok I'll point mine at you Response
Well I know mine is loaded
It's called a deadly threat, which is assumed when you point a gun at somebody

etc.

RoostRider
July 15, 2009, 10:26 PM
I'm not sure if Dave is arguing with me, because I think he and I are on a similar, if not the same page... all I'm saying is expect the worst from Joe Public, and unless your going to stay out of stores that allow the public to handle guns, you gotta deal with it in some way.... to which end I propose what I originally stated....

formulate some nice responses

Exactly, although you left out my suggestion of quoting the rule, as a rule..... I honestly think a good share of people might easier take to a well understood and universally accepted rule than the 'output' from some local 'paranoid dude' who hollers at him about 'muscle?/muzzle? control' or something.... if you see what I mean....

I also think that stores employing a "I don't know you, so you get the speech" policy before handling guns is an interesting idea...... ( as suggested by some others)

Lou McGopher
July 16, 2009, 12:51 AM
Driving a car on the other hand is not a fundamental right in our book.

Not true. Driving a car is protected by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

Be careful what reasoning you throw out in regards to what is or isn't a right. That same reasoning may come back to bite you, even in regard to what is supposedly protected by the 2A. We have all sorts of rights. They just aren't all listed in the first 10 amendments.


Anyhow, I've been swept in gun stores. Usually you can see the action is open on the firearm, and it's only a momentary sweep. I expect that sort of stuff to happen when you have a bunch of people in a confined area. But if someone is cycling the action, pulling the trigger, looking down the sights, whatever, then I expect the gun to be pointed away from anyone. If I saw someone pointing the gun at me while they were messing with it, I'd politely but firmly ask them to point it in a safe direction and not at me. If it happened a second time, I'd ask one of the clerks to do something if one were available. If not I'd sternly demand they quit pointing the gun at me, and I'd say it loud enough to get plenty of attention. Next course of action would be to leave the store without conducting any business.

tdowell
July 16, 2009, 02:53 AM
EVERYONE Should follow the 4 rules of gun handling!

Rule 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when you have a firearm in your hands and you have personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as you put it down, Rule 1 applies again.

Rule 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY
You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.

Rule 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET
This we call the Golden Rule because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.

Rule 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT
You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it.

tdowell
July 16, 2009, 02:56 AM
I was shooting at Arizona range in Ft Lauderdale. I turned around to throw out spent cases and here's this guy watching his buddy shoot, holding his rifle in one hand pointed right at me!
He gives me this stupid grin and shrugged his shoulders, and went back to being a spectator.
Could I construe that as a threat?
Anytime someone points a gun at you, its should be construed as a deadly threat, because, accident or not, IT IS A THREAT. You should have immidiately reported this guy to the range supervisor, if there isn't one on duty, LEAVE Immidiately. Don't get shot by some idiot!!!

DAVIDSDIVAD
July 16, 2009, 03:52 AM
ITT: a bunch of internet tough guys talk about threatening to shoot people because they accidentally sweep them with a muzzle.


Get over yourselves, guys.

The adult response is to say "whoa nelly; would you please not point that fire-arm in my direction? I know you think it's unloaded, but the rules are the rules"

ScareyH22A
July 16, 2009, 05:04 AM
If someone pointed a gun at me unintentionally, would I go to hell if I shot them?

rainbowbob
July 16, 2009, 02:43 PM
If someone pointed a gun at me unintentionally, would I go to hell if I shot them?

I don't know about that metaphysical consequence - but jail would be a real possibility unless you could demonstrate a reasonable fear of deadly assault.

KBintheSLC
July 16, 2009, 03:45 PM
So if all guns are loaded...

Do you crawl on your stomach when entering the gun store?

Hey Beavis... it is not a literal statement when they say "all guns are loaded". They are just saying "treat all guns as if they were loaded"... ya know... one of the most basic rules of gun safety.

KBintheSLC
July 16, 2009, 03:56 PM
Not true. Driving a car is protected by the Ninth and Tenth Amendments.

Be careful what reasoning you throw out in regards to what is or isn't a right. That same reasoning may come back to bite you, even in regard to what is supposedly protected by the 2A. We have all sorts of rights. They just aren't all listed in the first 10 amendments.

Not necessarily... the 9th says that rights are rights even if not specifically named in the Constitution. However, driving is considered but most States to be a privilege, not a fundamental right. Actually, the word "privilege" is the exact legal terminology they use to discribe your permit to drive around here.

The 10th merely states that the Federal Gov's powers are limited to that which is specifically defined in the Constitution. It gives States the power of sovereignty... not sure how that could relate to giving you the "right" to drive a car.

The 2nd however, is very specific and "the people" are named directly therein. Only a manipulative, gun-grabbing leftist could twist it to mean something besides it's obvious intentions.

Lou McGopher
July 16, 2009, 04:39 PM
Yes, but suppose enough antis get in office and say, "You know what? There's nothing in the 2A that says you have a right to hunt. There's nothing in the 2A that says you have a right to operate a shooting range. And then they ban hunting and ban firing a weapon on anyone else's property but your own, except in cases of self defense.

You have a right to travel, unless you are a prisoner or a slave (and slavery is supposedly outlawed). How does one travel? Either by foot, by beast, or by machine. Traveling by machine is by far the most common, accepted way to get from point A to point B in this country. Supposed you were summoned to court for whatever reason, and the courthouse is 40 miles away from you. How would you get there? Pedestrians and livestock are prohibited from the interstates, as well as many other highways. They're also extremely slow compared to the automobile. Where would you tie up your horse at the courthouse, anyway? To a parking meter? Getting someone else to drive you there puts you at their mercy. Suppose nobody is willing to transport you? In such a scenario, the law has effectively infringed upon your right to travel, just not explicitly. It has done so by declaring something to be a privilege. For what basis is there to assume driving is a privilege when it is done upon public roads?

It's imperative we have an extremely low tolerance for classifying activities as "privileges," even when it isn't directly 2A-related. Eventually the same logic will be used to abridge the 2A in spirit if not in letter.

Concealed carry has been legislated as a "privilege," with no basis for such classification. Some states make it very difficult to get this privilege bestowed upon you. But if you open carry, you're harassed by the police. Thus, carrying a firearm is effectively prohibited by the state, without explicitly banning it.

Tackleberry1
July 16, 2009, 05:49 PM
"If you point your gun at me, I will assume you want to engage in a gunfight and I will act accordingly...."

I like that! I'm going to start using it!

Shadow 7D
July 17, 2009, 02:56 PM
It's not ITT thinking of shooting someone
reducing the argument to that is absurd and leads to the questioning of your point

HAVE YOU ever had a loaded gun purposely pointed at you?

The point of this thread, or atleast most of this page of it is more on how to respond to someone flagging you.

while shooting them would get the point across, most people would agree that words should be effective. So lets have a NICE open discussion on how to tell someone that they are doing a big NONO, with out having to resort to beating them with rolled newpaper like a puppy pissing on the kitchen floor.

1911Tuner
July 17, 2009, 04:23 PM
KB. He understands exactly what we mean. He just likes to argue. Please don't feed the trolls.

missed again
July 17, 2009, 06:49 PM
Your experience may be different but Iíve found that a lot of people I know are buying guns and not getting direction or instruction.:banghead: What I hear from folks is that the courses are too expensive, too full and Iím not really going to shoot the gun, Iím not going hunting and I didnít buy a rifle. They also have to be convinced that the shooters on either side of them at the range are concerned about their own targets, not the newbieís and that no, I donít always hit the center.

Iím not trying to convert an anti into a believer. I just believe we have to help newbieís be safe with their new guns and take the next step by attending an NRA or other hands-on course. We all know people are buying guns at a record pace. We also know that they can walk out of some gun stores or shows with little more instruction than the ďbulletsĒ go in here.

moooose102
July 18, 2009, 10:21 AM
the other part of this is there is nothing stopping anyone from carrying in a live round and sticking it in the chamber while handling a gun. my favorite gun stores either have a trigger lock on all their displayed weapons, or a cable running through them to keep them on the shelfs until a salesperson comes to help you. they might sell a few less guns that way, but, they will never have to clean up blood from the floor either! yes, i hate it also when somebody does that in a store as well. when i pick up a gun to look at it, the muzzle is either pointed at the ceiling, or the floor. period.

bigfatdave
July 18, 2009, 09:40 PM
Your experience may be different but I’ve found that a lot of people I know are buying guns and not getting direction or instruction. What I hear from folks is that the courses are too expensive, too full and I’m not really going to shoot the gun, I’m not going hunting and I didn’t buy a rifle.Which does not excuse a lack of common sense.
Once again ... "this end with hole makes hurty" isn't that hard, and in the information age, ignorance is no longer a valid excuse.

Elvishead
July 19, 2009, 07:49 AM
Just drive across town in your car, and your in way more in danger of being killed, triple fold!

Get over it, he's stupid, but so are most driver's.

BTW, I never had a car to car accident in the 25++ (++= legally Bellow 16 driving) years of driving, but I have had loaded gun pointed at me (Robbery), and I'm still more afraid of people that drive cars, 10 to 1, every time.

SJ1
July 19, 2009, 10:51 AM
A young man posted this at Rimfire Central yesterday:

i was at the range today and one guy shot his buddy trying to clear a jam out of his M&P 9mm pistol. it went through and through from one armpit to the other. i believe it hit his spine and paralyed him and punctured both lungs.

i called 911 and started administering CPR. i believe he died 10 mins later.
according to standards, i continued to to CPR until sheriffs depties arrived 40 minutes later. paramedics arrived after 50 minutes and a flight for life arrived approx 1 hour after the call to 911 was placed.

it didnt matter though.

a 25 year old man who was 2 weeks from getting married died in my care this afternoon because of careless gun handling.

please takea moment to pray for the soul of this man, the man who shot him accidentally and their families.

but also, take a moment to talk to your loved ones about gun safety and dont be afraid to approach someone to help them preactice gun safety while out at the range.

dont let this be you

RoostRider
July 20, 2009, 05:34 PM
A young man posted this at Rimfire Central yesterday:

i was at the range today and one guy shot his buddy trying to clear a jam out of his M&P 9mm pistol......

Related link? http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=463542

If so, we are talking about something WAY different than a loaded gun in a gun shop.

benEzra
July 20, 2009, 06:14 PM
If so, we are talking about something WAY different than a loaded gun in a gun shop.
Not much different at all. Both cases are careless violations of Rule Two, and they can get people killed in gun shops just like they can get people killed on the range. If the guy in the OP had "dry fired" the "unloaded" rifle when it was pointed in an unsafe direction, or if his finger had been unconsciously on the trigger (people clueless enough to point guns at other people aren't usually sticklers for trigger finger discipline, either), then the outcome could have been precisely the same.

If you are holding a gun in your hands, don't point it at people except in justifiable self-defense. It's that simple. "But it's UNLOADED!" is not an excuse for Rule Two violations.

Debronduncan
July 20, 2009, 06:34 PM
My kids are not gun 'nuts'; but I have taught them both to walk straight over to a gun when they encounter one in someone's home; pick it up, open the action and disable it or unload it.

That goes for gun shops too.

We live in a faster time now; more violence on TV; bigger, shinier hardware and we even see them mishandled on TV.

The safest way to be around guns is to consider all of them loaded and ready to fire and deal with them accordingly.

Mst. Chief
July 20, 2009, 06:37 PM
im not that blunt to just go in a store and start grabbin and wavin stuff around. nuts. i have tact, i know how to act for the situation. unbelievable the employee would stock that on the floor with one in the spout. unreal.

rainbowbob
July 20, 2009, 06:58 PM
My kids are not gun 'nuts'; but I have taught them both to walk straight over to a gun when they encounter one in someone's home; pick it up, open the action and disable it or unload it.

Debronduncan: Are you joking?

How old are your kids, if you don't mind my asking?

Have they/you heard of the NRA's "Eddie Eagle" program?

It teaches children to simply remember:

"Stop...don't touch...walk away...tell an adult."

I can't imagine training my children to handle unfamiliar firearms - or any firearms - without my direct supervision.

They should know how to - yes.

But I can't understand the justification for instructing children to "...walk straight over to a gun when they encounter one in someone's home pick it up, open the action and disable it or unload it." :what:

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