After putting 120 rounds through my 308 yesterday, I've decided that the trigger slap is getting annoying. I know a Tapco G2 would solve the problem, but...
I've installed the RAA Skeleton stock on the rifle at a cost of $80.00. If I move the trigger to it's "correct" position, will the stock become "useless" or at least a real reach?
I've seen where on most post-ban AK's there's a flange on the trigger group that seems to be the cause of the problem (why Saiga didn't address this is curious). There are directions on how to trim this off to solve the issue. Anyone done this on a Saiga? Did it solve the slap issue?
Secondly, will the RAA stock be akward at best with the Tapco G2 installed?
Thirdly, aside from this minor issue, the Saiga 308 is nothing but pure fun to shoot. I was able to hit 2 litre plastic bottles at 100 yards with the open sites all day long from a standing position. Tried Brown Bear, Silver Bear and Wolf ammo types- all fed, fired and ejected flawlessly. Oddly enough, no bent or damaged casings as some have reported.
I tried some prone shots on a target and it looked like the rifle was hitting dead solid on elevation and maybe 1.5" to the right. I didn't have a bench rest or sandbags, so this is not scientific by any means, but the groupings were holding well within 3-4 inches in a steady crosswind.
Based on what I saw, with the proper set-up and some optics (on order) and really concentrating a 2-2.5 MOA is achieveable with mil-surp ammo.
All things considered, it's what I thought it would be with one exception. I figured that this would be a one and done situation. One Saiga, and that would be all I'd ever need. After yesterday, I began trying to figure-out how to finance one in 5.56 as I'm pretty sure I need it. This is beginning to seem like the CZ 75 syndrome all over again...
Thanks for any input on the above "issue"
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July 13, 2009, 04:43 PM
To fix the trigger you must convert otherwise you are just polishing a turd (trigger wise). That is why I never suggest the Saiga skeleton stock, if you want a pistol grip just do the conversion. I also did the same thing, bought the skeleton stock and decided the trigger sucked and converted so don't feel too bad.
July 13, 2009, 04:46 PM
If I move the trigger to it's "correct" position, will the stock become "useless" or at least a real reach?
In short, yes. If you move the trigger group forward towards the muzzle, your skeleton stock will become essentially useless. It is too far, just as you predicted, to reach with your hand on the grip. Here's visual stimulation if your aching for a 5.56 saiga. http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh234/m4dscottw88/SaigaPorn.jpg
July 13, 2009, 05:37 PM
Thanks, I was afraid of that...
Thanks for the pic as well. Decision time- trade in the Ruger Mini-14 Series 180 and trick-out a Saiga 5.56 or just be happy with the Mini that cannot be upgraded.
Given the trigger is bad to very-bad, if I was really cheap (and I am) does the 308 have the "flange" and if it is removed, will I have a crappy trigger with no slap?
July 13, 2009, 05:45 PM
Not sure about the flange you speak of and I don't have my old trigger to look at. They will always be crappy because of the linkages needed to get it back there. Each linkage adds its own creep, grit and loose feeling. The good news is you should be able to convert for around $90 if you are handy. With the .308 you don't need to worry about the AK bullet guide. Also you can your stock for around $50 to finance it.
July 13, 2009, 05:51 PM
If you want something similar to the skeleton stock, pick up a Romanian Dragunov-style stock for around $25. It's a direct equivalent, only made of wood, and with a very nice recoil reduction plate to reduce felt recoil.
THE DARK KNIGHT
July 13, 2009, 06:05 PM
Quit beating around the bush, total cost of a bare-bones conversion is like $100.
Like the other guy said, no point in polishing a turd.
July 13, 2009, 06:10 PM
Rockhead, slow down a bit. It's a slippery slope, and for what appears to be a minor annoyance and with a gun that you obviously enjoy shooting (I'm going on your own words here) you may want to spend a little more time behind the rifle before taking further action.
THE DARK KNIGHT
July 13, 2009, 06:22 PM
The difference between a converted and unconverted saiga is night and day. The improved handling and trigger on a conversion will make you laugh at the fact that you even tried the half-ass pistol grip stock. I know I did.
July 13, 2009, 08:10 PM
Here's the part I was referring too. Although the Romy's have it, Anyone know if the Saiga 308 has the same issue or is it something completely different?
As Storm said, I like all other aspects of the rifle (okay, I don't really like the trigger, but it fires the weapon everytime so far I've pulled it), so if just doing this one minor repair solves the slap issue, then it's absolutely fine with me and I don't have a useless $80 part for a $500 rifle.
The old 20/20 hindsight thing? Maybe I'd do a full FCG conversion, install a "real" pistol grip and a better stock. But, for now, I'm fine with it as is. The slap is just annoying and I can get around it if the repair is anywhere close to involved.
In regard to 922r and using the 15 round mag with no other conversions....yeah, I'm aware of the potential legal issues. Talking with several friends on the force around here, they could really care less and said it would only become an issue if I used the rifle during the comission of a crime. That's for another time and topic, but worrying over the compliancy issue for a personal, not for sale firearm is really not a priority for me.
July 13, 2009, 09:32 PM
Yes the disconnector does have a similar tab but I believe the tab is actually part of the linkage. I don't have it anymore so I cannot say for sure. I would look and see it the stepped tab on the disconnector is necessary before I go grinding it off though.
922 compliance is easy and is usually solved with the FCG, a piston (gas puck) and another part (don't quote me on this though as there are web sights dedicated to 922r compliance).
July 14, 2009, 08:52 AM
Hey Rockhead. I have heard different things about trigger slap, some saying it is more common with the 7.63x39 and less common in the .308, and vice versa. I've not had the issue with either of mine. If the trigger is causing you pain then to me it would trump the other considerations and the conversion would be the way to go.
I'm starting to think that my two Saigas are anomalies as the triggers aren't that bad. They are older, so who knows. The funny thing is that the very best trigger on a rifle that I have yet to experience, and I've shot one heck of a lot of them over the last thirty years, is my WASR 10/63. The TAPCO is super light and breaks like glass. Go figure.
BTW, with just a short search I have seen references to a repair for the slap short of a full conversion. I guess the bottom line is whether the slap is bad enough that you can't live with it, or whether you should live with it.
July 14, 2009, 09:03 AM
You can get tapco converted fire control parts for your saiga here. I had a set in my 223 and was a huge improvement over the stock trigger. http://www.dinzagarms.com/misc_parts/fcg.html Mark
July 15, 2009, 12:58 AM
Sounds like a full FCG conversion or just grin and bear it. The repair I mentioned earlier only applies to Century triggers according to some other site.
I guess I'll mull it over, Dinzag wants $75 for parts for the 308 FCG, a Tapco stock is $50, pistol grip is $18. Or just be happy that evertime I pull the trigger, the rifle goes boom.
Other way to look at it, for the $138 on the conversion I'm over 1/3 of the way to a Saiga in 5.56 or 7.62x39... hmmmmm
July 15, 2009, 01:39 AM
I have heard different things about trigger slap, some saying it is more common with the 7.63x39 and less common in the .308 For your education - Century is responsible for the current widespread use of the term "trigger slap". They cloned a full auto fire control group here which is known (see gunsnet link (http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/slapfix.htm) above) to have slap (every time). The Saiga may have slap, but it's not for the same reasons.
July 15, 2009, 01:53 AM
I had the problem fixed when I installed my G2 FCG.
July 15, 2009, 01:57 AM
The .308 trigger is absurdly bad. I wouldn't even consider keeping the stock trigger on one. You may have to eat a loss on that skeleton stock but do your self a favor and convert the thing.
For those unfamiliar with the .308 it is not the same as the other saiga rifles. It travels up as much as it does back.
July 15, 2009, 10:06 AM
It's a shame that Dinzag couldn't do the factory fix for the .308. Rockhead, be sure to let us know what you end up doing with the .308.
I'm going to go hug my well-behaved .308:D
July 15, 2009, 04:28 PM
I spent some time with my .308 this afternoon and I have a hard time believing that we are talking about the same rifle. Maybe I've just gotten used to it over the past two plus years, or, I got lucky with mine, or, something has changed for the worse since mine was made. It's a long pull, but it is smooth, not at all gritty, with a light break. There is no slap.
Go figure. My .223 bought around the same time is different, but not at all bad either.
July 15, 2009, 10:44 PM
I've got 3 Saigas; two 7.62x39s and a .223, all unconverted. No trigger slap on any of them. The triggers are a mite stiff, but I've used worse...and have gotten used to worse. All 3 seem quite accurate with issue sights and outshoot my Mini 14s when using irons.
One thing I like about the triggers is that they feel exactly the same on all three guns; stiff but consistent....not only from shot to shot but from gun to gun. They're still new so I expect they'll get better with use.
Saigas are like potato chips; you can't stop at one. Glad to see prices are coming down.
chris in va
July 15, 2009, 11:43 PM
I can certainly see how you'd want a thumbhole stock on a 308 Saiga. They're really not for plinking and blasting like the 5.56/39 versions. Get the G2, then the corresponding thumbhole or whatever floats your boat.
July 16, 2009, 02:48 PM
Keep an eye on this thread, the guy says he will post a tutorial on how to fix up a stock Saiga trigger: