Suggestions for an Ar-15


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Harrydawg
July 13, 2009, 11:50 PM
I'm looking into buying an Ar-15 what would be the best manufacturer??

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wbtrunx
July 13, 2009, 11:52 PM
Depends on how much you're looking to spend.
Rock River and Stag Arms are good at the lower end of the price list.

Harrydawg
July 13, 2009, 11:53 PM
im not worried about price

jeremy1391
July 13, 2009, 11:56 PM
if u want a good milspec clone for not too much that will perform on par with an army issue m4 get a cmmg u won't be dissappointed, I know I wasn't ;)

Pony Express
July 14, 2009, 12:19 AM
hot dog, now we get to hear what kind of AR everybody has! :neener:

sarduy
July 14, 2009, 12:29 AM
I'm looking into buying an Ar-15 what would be the best manufacturer??

first: what will be the main use of the AR?

Home Defence
Target shooting
Range fun
Varmint Hunting
Gun Matchs
Hunting....

second: what caliber you want it in? .223, 7.62x39, 5.45, .50 beowulf...

then... what kind of setup/profile you want...

HBAR
Rifle lenght 20''
Carbine 16''
SBR 14.5 and under...

C-grunt
July 14, 2009, 05:18 AM
Colt is usually the yard stick by which others are measured. You can get better and you can get worse. But a Colt will be, baring a lemon, a good rifle.

My low price (around 1000 or less) list would be:
Bushmaster
Armalite
Stag
Rock River Arms

More expensive (1000 and above) would be:
Colt
Lewis Machine and Tool
Noveske
Daniel Defense
LWRC

I am missing a few, especially on the expensive list. Of my lists, Ive owned a couple Bushmasters that were great and currently own a Colt thats great. Ive shot all the rifles on the cheap list and they performed well. On the expensive list I only have experience with the Colts, but have never heard a bad word about the others.

AgentAdam
July 14, 2009, 06:45 AM
Bushmaster,CMMG,Rocker River Arms, Colt

MrFox
July 14, 2009, 07:23 AM
S&W.

sarduy
July 14, 2009, 10:01 AM
another vote for CMMG

mcdonl
July 14, 2009, 10:02 AM
I have a DPMS, but... I did care about money... if I didnt I think the S&W would be my choice.

TurboFC3S
July 14, 2009, 10:21 AM
I've answered these questions the last 3-4 times, now I'm gonna be one of 'those' guys that says SEARCH!

It's been covered at length many times lately.

Z-Michigan
July 14, 2009, 10:55 AM
I think it's time to put a sticky for this general topic, and stop responding to individual queries.

jackdanson
July 14, 2009, 10:58 AM
+1 to the search

I have a DPMS, but... I did care about money... if I didnt I think the S&W would be my choice.

SW aren't really that much more than the DPMS, I paid 800 for a SW about a year ago.

To answer the OP Noveske, colt, or LMT if price is no issue. I've honestly never handled a CMMG, so I won't comment on them.

P.B.Walsh
July 14, 2009, 10:59 AM
Really we NEED a "suggestions for an AR" sticky!! :)

Mt.Traverse
July 14, 2009, 03:29 PM
Buy my, new LMT Defender, $1,250 shipped to your FFl, or meet in Dener

taliv
July 14, 2009, 03:56 PM
if someone put together a thoughtful, well-written post or two, I'd be happy to add it to Bartholomew's library sticky. Sticking a string of posts consisting of nothing more than people shouting whatever brand they own... seems suboptimal.

CoRoMo
July 14, 2009, 05:00 PM
For those who don't have a deep knowledge of what makes an AR "good", "better", or "best", I usually tend to send them to 'The Chart' (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&hl=en). It is not the end-all/be-all source on the subject, but it is a good tool for a beginner to start out with because rob_s did an excellent job of explaining features and specs in layman's terminology. I think what 'The Chart' does best, is to inform the novices what the tip of the iceberg looks like.

It should be noted that 'The Chart' only compares a small number of M4 direct impingement rifles, and there are a lot of things rob_s could not include there because of the vast family of variations that exist under the "AR-15" title.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/gotm4/chart.jpg

hth

FlyinBryan
July 14, 2009, 06:16 PM
i have to question the credibility of the chart, and have since i first saw it.

the first (and thus as a result only) category i ever checked out in the chart in more than a sample size of 1 rifle, turned out to be false.

im not going to expend effort into verifying anything else on it, ive seen enough.

H2O MAN
July 14, 2009, 06:18 PM
Clyde Armory in Bogart/Athens Georgia has used Colt LE 6920s on the rack for $920.00

cameron.personal
July 14, 2009, 06:20 PM
I personally own, Colt, LMT, Daniel Defense.

You can buy and excellent Bravo Co Manufacturing for less the $1000.

I owned a Bushmaster, I don't have it anymore.

Tier one (must have DoD contract or the Military is known to buy from these companies in QTY):
Colt
FN
LMT
HK
Tier two (good enough to be tier 1, but have no DoD contracts):
Noveske
BCM
Sabre Defence
KAC
Daniel Defense
Tier three:
Charles Daly
S&W
Tier four:
DPMS
BM
RRA
Oly
Armalite

FlyinBryan
July 14, 2009, 06:26 PM
and if your not worried about price i would say a noveski or a knights armament.

ive never owned one of either so it should indicate there are still people out there whos opinions should count.

i have a bushmaster (actually 2) with over 7k rounds each, and still, never a single hiccup from either, and both will shoot moa here and there (more often than not) but im not suggesting them because i dont feel like defending them.

when i first got into the ar rifles, i didnt ask anyone which kind were best. i knew what that revealed. not what is best, but what everyone has (see above). which honestly is fine, theres nothing wrong with that, but is that really what your after?

CoRoMo
July 14, 2009, 06:33 PM
im not going to expend effort into verifying anything else on it, ive seen enough.

Then I suppose when you find one bad egg, you'll never eat breakfast again.:rolleyes: The chart has been revised many times now over the years. Like I said, what it does best is introduce beginners to the many features of the rifle.
Those who don't know, ask. But those who know, don't need to ask.

FlyinBryan
July 14, 2009, 06:38 PM
lol, funny analogy

i just wont cook that egg, and if eggs ever cost 1500 dollars and it happens, i might buy eggs from a different company if i still want breakfast. no matter how you slice them, some eggs just arent right for some people

CoRoMo
July 14, 2009, 06:39 PM
Bravo.

FlyinBryan
July 14, 2009, 06:45 PM
Clyde Armory in Bogart/Athens Georgia has used Colt LE 6920s on the rack for $920.00

if a fella was educated just enough to check these rifles out (it wouldnt take much education, throat erosion, muzzle wear, bore condition, and a set of headspace gauges) this is one of the best deals ive ever heard for a colt.

lol, its not much different that the price i paid for one almost 20 years ago, (899)

thats definitly worth looking into.

ugaarguy
July 14, 2009, 06:52 PM
i have to question the credibility of the chart, and have since i first saw it.

the first (and thus as a result only) category i ever checked out in the chart in more than a sample size of 1 rifle, turned out to be false.

im not going to expend effort into verifying anything else on it, ive seen enough.
Great attitude. Rob has constantly updated the chart to reflect changes manufacturers have made. Compare his EXPLANATION OF FEATURES (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pwswheghNQsEuEhjFwPrgTA&hl=en) to Bartholomew Roberts' thread 34 Ways to Cut Corners on Manufacturing an AR15 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=243382) stickied in the THR Rifle Forum Reading Library _ Useful Links (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=208641). Rob has always maintained that he wants the chart to be as accurate as possible, has provided contact info, and encourages anyone to contact him when something needs a correction or update. Manufacturers will always make changes to meet consumer demand, cut costs, add value, or simply assemble guns when one supplier is out of a part and they have to get it from another. Therefore, the chart will never be 100% accurate. However, you can contact Rob (THR user name Rob_S if you like the PM feature here) and help make it as accurate as possible. Alternately, you can act like a child, and whine about inaccuracy in the chart while doing nothing about it.

FlyinBryan
July 14, 2009, 07:45 PM
However, you can contact Rob (THR user name Rob_S if you like the PM feature here) and help make it as accurate as possible. Alternately, you can act like a child, and whine about inaccuracy in the chart while doing nothing about it.

my apologies.

i will try to keep my childish whining in check.

bryan.

RP88
July 14, 2009, 07:54 PM
The Chart is generally correct, at least for the exact model it is going off of.

ugaarguy
July 14, 2009, 08:27 PM
my apologies.

i will try to keep my childish whining in check.

bryan.
My comment was tongue in cheek. You're one of the more AR knowledgeable folks on this forum. The Chart can be a helpful tool for folks who are new to AR-15s, particularly if they pay more attention to the explanation of features than to the charts themselves. Rob's explanation features on the Google doc has similar content to B. Roberts' 34 ways to cut corners thread, but is presented in a different way. The charts simply provide a quick, and generally accurate reference to who's building rifles with better parts & assembly methods.

You even said: when i first got into the ar rifles, i didnt ask anyone which kind were best. i knew what that revealed. not what is best, but what everyone has (see above). which honestly is fine, theres nothing wrong with that, but is that really what your after?
The chart (in it's 4 page entirety) is just a starting point to learn what's better, not what everyone else has. It's not the only refernce, but it's a pretty good one, and it's undeniably popular. I'm just saying that someone with your knowledge of AR type rifles could help improve the chart, because it's obviously not going anywhere. Another thought is to take Rob's idea and make your own version with an emphasis on plinker ARs, and what features are a waste of money for that application; or make a version on target AR rifles, and which features are preferred for that application in comparison/contrast to defensive AR carbines.

I personally work at a medium-large FFL here in GA. When I have a few minutes I make it a point to go over the AR type rifles we have in and see how accurate the chart is on features I can evaluate (obviously I cant look at a barrel and tell what steel it's made from, but I can look at a receiver extension nut and see whether or not it's staked on, etc).

ForneyRider
July 14, 2009, 09:30 PM
Les Baer comes to mind as a top of the line custom.

FlyinBryan
July 14, 2009, 10:29 PM
My comment was tongue in cheek. You're one of the more AR knowledgeable folks on this forum.

lol, its ok, i do it all the time, it didnt bother me.

what i did take to heart was the compliment though. i know you know your way around a rifle so that did mean something.

also, your idea about a chart for target shooters/high power competitors would be awesome. i am certainly not the guy to do it, but it would be useful for folks.

(if there was one, and i had used it, i might could crack the top three in my own ar match, lol.)

kwelz
July 15, 2009, 03:28 AM
I agree that a chart for other types of ARs would not be a bad idea. What many people forget is that the Chart is made for people looking for a weapon as close to Military specs as possible. Some of the features listed are a non issue to a lot of shooters, while others are important to everyone.

Nematocyst
August 17, 2009, 01:22 AM
I'm going to bump this one.

A few days ago, while shooting a friend's Stag,
I became interested in AR's (second time).
And that's significant given my sig line.

Starting to research them, I found this thread.
The "chart" does seem helpful, even if I don't know
what all those criteria mean yet.

Maybe somebody should start an AR primer thread.

Nem

PT1911
August 17, 2009, 01:28 AM
just my opinion but the new colts are far overrated...their quality has greatly fallen off in recent years.

someone will soon be along to bash me....:neener:

Nematocyst
August 17, 2009, 01:37 AM
So what replaces the Colt now, PT?

EHL
August 17, 2009, 01:39 AM
I'd recommend building one up with a Tactical Innovations reciever (T15BDX or T15 Forged) and a GG&G upper reciever. Makes one great AR!!!!

Big_E
August 17, 2009, 02:20 AM
Well I am going to get a Rock River Arms upper because they seem to be of high quality and fit my budget, it may not be Colt quality but apparently the DEA bought rifles from RRA so I figure they have to be decent.

PT1911
August 17, 2009, 02:30 AM
what replaces a NEW colt? I would take a DPMS, a Bushmaster, or Smith or Charles Daily without a second thought before a comparable colt at even a lower price. the quality is lacking.

MarineOne
August 17, 2009, 03:47 AM
If price is not a concern, Noveske or Colt.

If you're budget minded and still want a good rifle, then CMMG.


I can't recommend Bushmaster because they burned me pretty good on some warranty work for a warped index pin caused by an over tighten barrel nut when it was first built.

I had them fix it under warranty and it came back with the barrel nut so screwed up that I might not be able to take it off without a pipe wrench. So I've decided that I'm going to replace the upper with a flat top, replace the front sight post/gas block with a low profile one from GG&G or YHM, free float the barrel, and drop some glass on it (Marine Corps version of the ACOG).

Besides, it gives me an excuse to buy another AR while I'm rebuilding this one :)



Kris

1858
August 17, 2009, 04:45 AM
I'm looking into buying an Ar-15 what would be the best manufacturer?? im not worried about price

Then buy a gas piston POF .... I'm not exactly objective since I have a couple of them, but I like them for their accuracy, reliability, simplicity and ease of maintenance.

http://www.pof-usa.com/p415/p415.htm

:)

kwelz
August 17, 2009, 06:14 AM
Well I am going to get a Rock River Arms upper because they seem to be of high quality and fit my budget, it may not be Colt quality but apparently the DEA bought rifles from RRA so I figure they have to be decent.

That Entry tactical you buy at your Local gun store is not the same as the guns the DEA purchased. And keep in mind that RRA got a very small part of that contract. Care to guess who got most of it?

EHL
August 17, 2009, 09:34 AM
Care to guess who got most of it? Uh, Colt?

By the way, Azizza, I absolutely love your signature line! Is that from "Code of Hero"? My all time favorite episode in the entire series! I thought his lines were some of the absolute coolest in the show.

kwelz
August 17, 2009, 09:52 AM
EHL, you are correct on both accounts. :D

HammerG26
August 17, 2009, 10:45 AM
My Doublestar never finds its way into any of these lists... makes me nervous.
It shoots fine for me, though I have never really "put it through its paces"... may shoot a 100 yd match in a couple of weeks... see how it does...

Is the DSC from Doublestar a good rifle? I bought it because of these articles:
1. http://www.tactical-life.com/online/special-weapons/doublestar-patrol-carbine-556mm/
2. http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/DoubleStar

Did I make a mistake?

krs
August 17, 2009, 10:59 AM
Hammer, did you make a mistake?

Oh Boy Howdy!! :D

No, you didn't make a mistake - they use decent parts from what I've seen in one example owned by a range buddie.

Much of the 'staking' type of failings can be quickly and easily rectified by someone who has a good punch and a hammer. As I used to tell mail carriers awed by my ability to make their errant jeep restart with my ballpeen hammer, "It's not just hitting, it's knowing where and how hard to hit". (float bowls)

No mention of Fulton Armory in the chart? Is this a personality issue? From what I see in my two Fulton rifles Clint McKee puts together a fine and strictly milspec product that are uniformly both accurate and reliable. I mean - when I wanted to change to a folding front sight I wasn't able to budge the pins put in by Fulton with my 20 ton press, much less a hammer and punch. It was so frustrating to try to disassemble the rifle that I bought another lower and an upper from another source just so I could make me an "optics ready" carbine. Have I missed something or do I share in Hammer's mistaken buying escapades?:rolleyes:

kwelz
August 17, 2009, 11:29 AM
Hammer it depends on your intended purpose. "The chart" is for people that want a carbine that is going to be run hard. And by hard we are talking Hundreds of rounds per range session multiple times a month. Heck I know guys that shoot thousands of rounds in a month.

Now if you are just punching paper a Doublestar will do fine. But if you want a heavy duty defensive carbine then I would suggest looking into something like an LMT, Daniel Defense, Colt, etc.

Nematocyst
August 17, 2009, 12:18 PM
This is an interesting and informative thread for a newbie (to AR considerations) like me.

Can someone offer some specifics, please, about why Stag doesn't rank so high?

In fact, looking at the quoted list in post 21 (where'd that come from?), Stag doesn't even appear on the list.

Am I missing something? Does Stag go by a different name there?

HammerG26
August 17, 2009, 12:32 PM
Yeah - purpose was to shoot a lot, competitions, training classes, etc. I don't really have the budget to buy multiple ARs.
That being said, the cost of ammo, the newborn, and ankle surgery have made my gun a safe queen. I hope to get out and shoot some 100 yd comps soon, then "run and gun" when rehab is over...
Guess I will see what happens then.
Worse case scenario - I get to buy upgraded parts for the ones which break...

FlyinBryan
August 17, 2009, 07:02 PM
Now if you are just punching paper a Doublestar
a guy with a doublestar wouldnt stand a chance where i punch paper (unless a doublestar will clover @200yds)

And by hard we are talking Hundreds of rounds per range session multiple times a month.
hypothetcally speaking of course, if i were to shoot 150-200 rounds a week, at least 4 times a month (usually more like 6-8 times a month) would i definitly have problems with a bushmaster. (actually two of them) because from what ive read i just know mine are going to let go any round now

Sig 556
August 17, 2009, 10:18 PM
<-------------------------------------------------------------:neener:

RP88
August 17, 2009, 11:42 PM
for the OP:

here's something you can do:

build an AR.

Building an AR has the following advantages:
-teaches you more about the platform
-allows you to spend the money on EXACTLY what you do want/need
-saves money in the long run

the disadvantages:
-worse resale if you make a 'frankenrifle'
-no warranty, since it isn't a complete rifle

but if you build it properly and are happy once you finish it, then that won't matter.

However, if you don't have the patience for that, then get a Colt, LMT, or Nobeske, or get a CMMG and stake the receiver plate yourself and swap out the BCG for a milspec one from Bravo.

hadmanysons
August 18, 2009, 03:20 AM
My 2, I have a S&W M&P15A. I like it. Only had one problem with the buffer retaining pin which they corrected promptly and never had a problem since. NEVER jammed after about 3000+ rounds and paid about $1100 for it about 4 days after E-day.

HammerG26
August 19, 2009, 09:25 AM
Flyin - can you "clover"? If so, what rifle are you shooting?
I am not sure how accurate my rifle is. I only use iron sights, so I am sure any limitation on its accuracy is my fault, not the rifle's fault.
Perhaps I will put a scope on it one day and see if I can "clover"...
Anyone have any experience with a DSC and a scope?

FlyinBryan
August 19, 2009, 09:54 AM
not regularly enough to say i can.

the only rifles i see that regularly one hole group like that are the kreigers, sabres, shilens and the like.
after that they all seem to go about m.o.a.

check out some of the groups in my sig. (i didnt shoot them, but you can see what i mean.)

HammerG26
August 20, 2009, 06:23 AM
Yikes - that is some SERIOUS shooting. I think since mine is a carbine, I will not stand a chance, but hey, I will be shooting at least. I may get out this weekend, if I do, will let you know how it goes.

snakyjake
August 24, 2009, 01:32 AM
I've read a gas piston is the way to go...numerous advantages.

Ruger recently came out with their version: Ruger SR-556 (http://www.ruger.com/SR556/); and there's a few others.

Group9
September 6, 2009, 03:31 PM
That Entry tactical you buy at your Local gun store is not the same as the guns the DEA purchased. And keep in mind that RRA got a very small part of that contract. Care to guess who got most of it?


Uh, Colt?

No, wrong. DEA didn't buy any Colt semi-auto AR-15's for domestic use under that contract. They did buy some select fire M-4's for OCONUS use under a pre-existing contract, but now Colt has even lost out on that contract to LWRC.

The Colt internet guys were mad enough at DEA over the Rock River decision. I can't imagine how mad they are going to be over the latest one. :D

kwelz
September 6, 2009, 03:58 PM
You should really make sure you have your facts strait before you post.

http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2003/07-July/04-Jul-2003/10-awd.htm

AWARDS - July 4, 2003

DEA-03-C-0030 - Estimated $115,142,537.00
CARBINE RIFLE
Sigarms, Inc., 18 Industrial Drive, Exeter, N. H. 03833

DEA-03-C-0032 - Estimated $85,923,935.00
CARBINE RIFLE
Rock River Arms, Inc., 1042 Cleveland Road, Colona, Il. 61241

DEA-03-C-0031 - Estimated $113,639,340.00
CARBINE RIFLE
Colt Defense LLC, PO Box 118, Hartford, Ct. 06141

As you can see RRA got the smallest part of the contract with the larger portion going to Colt and Sig. And it still doesn't change the fact that they are different than the Off the shelf guns you can buy from RRA. I do believe they offered them as a specialty item but they are also considerably more than an Entry Tactical.

Bernie P.
September 7, 2009, 11:04 AM
H&K :evil:!

Group9
September 7, 2009, 11:39 AM
You should really make sure you have your facts strait before you post.

http://www.fbodaily.com/archive/2003...003/10-awd.htm

AWARDS - July 4, 2003

DEA-03-C-0030 - Estimated $115,142,537.00
CARBINE RIFLE
Sigarms, Inc., 18 Industrial Drive, Exeter, N. H. 03833

DEA-03-C-0032 - Estimated $85,923,935.00
CARBINE RIFLE
Rock River Arms, Inc., 1042 Cleveland Road, Colona, Il. 61241

DEA-03-C-0031 - Estimated $113,639,340.00
CARBINE RIFLE
Colt Defense LLC, PO Box 118, Hartford, Ct. 06141

As you can see RRA got the smallest part of the contract with the larger portion going to Colt and Sig. And it still doesn't change the fact that they are different than the Off the shelf guns you can buy from RRA. I do believe they offered them as a specialty item but they are also considerably more than an Entry Tactical.
__________________


I think you need to learn how government contracts work before you post. Awarding a contract is not the same as making purchases under it. DEA has purchased ZERO Colts and ZERO Sigs under those particular contracts.

And, if you don't believe me, or think I'm just pulling this stuff out of my ass, e-mail anyone at the FTU on Firebird and ask them (and, yeah, that's a what color is the boathouse at Hereford question).

blazerking78
September 13, 2009, 01:09 PM
How does YHM stand up to the list?

kwelz
September 13, 2009, 02:29 PM
So are you going to post any proof that the DEA purchased RRA guns but no Sigs or Colts?

You also haven't shown how off the shelf RRA guns are anything like the guns the DEA purchased. RRA Guns fall far short in many ways and I hope DEA agents never have to run their guns hard if they are anything like the ones I can buy from the LGS. No chrome lined barrel, no MP testing, etc, etc, etc.

The DEA guns may be different, and I hope they are. But I have always considered it pretty funny when people claim that the DEA contract means that RRA are great guns.

blazerking78 I haven't heard much on YHM guns. I don't think they ever replied to Rob about the chart but I could be wrong.
But for the money I am sure there are better options.

Z-Michigan
September 13, 2009, 04:30 PM
Right now you can get a Colt LE6920 on Gunbroker at $1275, maybe less. How the shortage has ended!!! You can also find a S&W M&P15 for under $900. You can also find a Charles Daly DM4-LE, which is very close to a Colt 6920 in features, for $1000 or less. Between those options I don't know how someone looking for a basic factory-assembled M4gery (barely a forgery in the case of 6920) could go wrong or need look any farther.

6920:
http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=139503560

mulh222
September 13, 2009, 06:21 PM
I own and like my Olympic Arms PCR (Politically Correct Rifle) very much and have no complaints with it.

FlyinBryan
September 13, 2009, 11:20 PM
You should really make sure you have your facts strait before you post.

is there any way possible of you questioning people without sounding so abrasive and self-rightous?

you know what i mean?

couldnt you politely say something like "well, i disagree"???

would it be possible for you to show a little self control when advertising your superiority?

just constructive critisism.

ugaarguy
September 14, 2009, 01:07 AM
I've read a gas piston is the way to go...numerous advantages.
I disagree. John Noveske said the following in an interview with Defense Review:
[DefenseReview received the following post-interview via email from John Noveske: "Also, we should mention the poor choice of platform for the piston conversion on a round receiver bore as found on the M16/M4 system. All other piston type systems out there utilize a railed receiver design, like the M14, AK-47, M249, FAL and so on. The round receiver bore design used on the M4 is only acceptable for the standard op system. The carrier and bolt expand on axis with the bore under the normal gas impingement cycle, but on a piston gun, you run into off center impulse issues with carrier tilt and incorrectly designed carrier contact points. Some designs attempt to address the carrier tilt problem with over sized carrier tails and rollers. I do not believe the receiver extension should be used in this manor. I know many people are very happy with their piston weapons. This is not meant as a knock on the piston conversion systems out there, but as a philosophical dialogue focused the new physiological relationships applied to the M16/M4 platform through the introduction of an operating system which has traditionally been applied to receivers with rails for the bolt and/or carrier. I would rather see an entirely new weapon system designed for the piston from the ground up. I believe there several outfits currently working on this."] http://www.defensereview.com/noveske-rifleworks-n4-light-recce-carbine-john-noveske-interview-part-one/
Reed Knight has made similar comments about the off axis recoil of piston driven AR-15 / M-16 systems. Eugene Stoner himself kept the AR-15 style bolt, but changed to a squared, railed, carrier & receiver when he designed the piston operated AR-18.

kwelz
September 14, 2009, 03:57 AM
Yes perhaps I should have been a bit nicer.

I guess I just get a bit frustrated when people only tell half the story. For instance RRA supposedly being so good because of a relatively small DEA contract. I am passionate about quality firearms I guess it comes through a bit to strongly at times.

Deaj
September 18, 2009, 01:21 AM
Smith & Wesson M&P15's are worth serious consideration.

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