30-30 neck sizing


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AgentAdam
July 14, 2009, 06:58 AM
Is neck sizing only good enough for a Marlin 336 lever gun in 30-30? The action seems similar enough to a locked breach bolt action. How many loads can i expect before they get hard to chamber.

I don't want to invest in all of the dies,trimmers,gauges,ect for this cartridge and i think this would be the perfect opportunity to try a Lee Hand Loader as i will only be loading and firing a box or two at a time.

I am open for powder and bullet recommendations. I might keep all of the components Winchester at first like my brass but I like Hercules powder also. 150 or 170 sp will work fine but i might experiment with the new 160 ballistic tips or other brand bullets for better accuracy.

Do any of the Lee Dippers correlate with a good beginners load?

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dakotasin
July 14, 2009, 07:41 AM
you can neck size for a 336 and closing the action will take a little more effort, but not too bad. you may find the action wants to pop back open on its own so you'll have to make sure you have the lever held closed.

i like win 748 and sierra 150's. the combination is actually so accurate that i felt comfortable enough sending bullets over my chronograph - which was set up at the 200 yard target - w/ open sights. i did not shoot my chrony, and i did get velocity readings.

no help on the dippers or lee hand loader - never tried 'em.

good luck!

The Bushmaster
July 14, 2009, 09:43 AM
On Lever guns, whether they be Marlin, Browning or Winchester, it is recommended that you full length size the case. If you don't you will have feeding problems.

I'm amazed that dakotasin didn't realize this when he stated "the action wants to pop back open on it's own"....

What works for my Jack handle (mod 94) is 32 grains of W-748 under a Speer 170 grain HCFN. CCI-200 primer in Winchester or remington cases FULL LENGTH SIZED....Three shot group at 100 yards from a 60 year old 94...1 5/8"

SASS#23149
July 14, 2009, 11:01 AM
2 of us have given up on ns only on 30-30.1 is a marlin 336,1 is a Stevens bolt gun.Too many rounds that were just too tightly fit for our tastes.I want them to glide in,not have to be hammered in,so to speak.
You can only ns the ones fired in your rifle,as you may know.You will need a caliper to make sure none have gotten too long for whatever reason after sizing,and for checking over all cartridge length.

rcmodel
July 14, 2009, 12:18 PM
You need to FL size, and crimp the bullets in a 30-30 lever-action.

They are not anything near a bolt-action in closing or opening power, and they all lock up at the rear of the bolt.
That makes the action spring a little under pressure and allows more case stretch then a bolt gun.

You might be able to neck size the first time, but before long you will need to FL size to get the lever shut.

And no crimp means the bullets can be pounded back in the cases by recoil in the tube magazine.

I would highly recommend you get real reloading dies for your 30-30.

rc

LeverGunJunkie
July 14, 2009, 12:42 PM
Gotta agree with rcmodel on this one. FL resize at a minimum. I have to FL resize for my WIN 94 30-30, and use Small Base FL dies on my WIN 94 .307 in order for the bolt to close.

Get real dies and crimp. While opinions very, I am partial to the Lee Factory Crimp die. Makes the rounds stand up to recoil in the tube mag.

I forget the charge for my 30-30 recipe, but I use either Sierra FP or Barnes TSX 150 gr over a medium charge of H4895. Those TSX's produce a sick wound channel on deer. She is hunting accurate.

I almost had a KB on my .40 SW using Lee Dippers. :what: I use a powder measure and digital scale for all my loads now.

I'm interested in the Lee handloader too, but for my .243 bolt-gun.

dakotasin
July 14, 2009, 03:33 PM
bushmaster - of course i realized it. however, i enjoy experimenting w/ stuff, and can find no fault in doing so at the range as an extension of my hobby...

so... indeed, you can neck size only for my marlin 336 30-30, and you can do it more than once. i have had few feeding troubles, and the troubles have all been related to closing the bolt and keeping it held closed. i have not had any that were over the top difficult to chamber and lock the lever down on, though.

rcmodel
July 14, 2009, 03:40 PM
That you have too hold the lever up indicates to me the bolt is not fully locking.

If it were fully locking, the lever would stay up by itself as is normal for the Marlin 336.

rc

243winxb
July 14, 2009, 04:08 PM
no help on the dippers or lee hand loader - never tried 'em. Well i have. The Lee Hammer Loader will load shells, but it gets old fast. Soon or later your brass has to be full length resized to make the rounds chamber. The dipper will throw a light charge of powder, this is good in a way as the brass does not expand much. No worry about bullet set back in my experence. With no expander to open the inside of the neck, you really have to beat the bullet into the case. This can leave deformed bullet noses. But then you might get lucky with some thin walled brass. Save you money and buy a press and full length resizing dies. Powder for 150 or 170gr, my choice IMR 4895

The Bushmaster
July 14, 2009, 05:14 PM
And for the Mod 94 also...

AgentAdam
July 15, 2009, 01:14 AM
Examining the action and spent shells it does look like there is a little stretch. The back 1/4" of the cases have a very slight bulge and the primmers have gone from -.005 below flush to .015 sticking out. Is this normal for factory Winchester Super_X 170g SP? The empties chamber fine. The 150s only came up about .010.

Right Wing Wacko
July 15, 2009, 01:48 AM
Examining the action and spent shells it does look like there is a little stretch. The back 1/4" of the cases have a very slight bulge and the primmers have gone from -.005 below flush to .015 sticking out. Is this normal for factory Winchester Super_X 170g SP? The empties chamber fine. The 150s only came up about .010

If the primers are "sticking out", I would not let them near a tube fed lever action. It's just not safe.

Kernel
July 15, 2009, 08:47 AM
.....the primers have gone from -.005 below flush to .015 sticking out. Is this normal for factory Winchester Super_X 170g SP?

No, that's not normal. If it was a handload I'd say you were loading them to light and the pressure wasn't high enough. Backed out primers are a classic sign of too light a load, not one that's too heavy.

But, that's not the case. You're shooting factory ammo. The pressure should be within spec and near max. This is head scratcher. Could be a headspace issue with your rifle, but I doubt it, since it seemed to work okay at other times.

Could be what you think is factory ammo, isn't. It's been known to happen. Someone pulls a fast one. Did you get it at a gun show? Still, that's a long shot.

Maybe you have some oil in your chamber, or on the ammo itself. Is that possible? All rifles, and lever actions especially, like a dry chamber. Bone dry. Degreased. Even a little lube in there can effect chamber wall adhesion.

Oil in the chamber. In recent years, I think this is becoming more of a problem. Simply because the high tech lubes we have today are so frikin' slippery and they creep everywhere.

Degrease your chamber and ammo and see if the problem with primers backing out goes away. Otherwise, I'd guess it's headspace.

The Bushmaster
July 15, 2009, 09:16 AM
It is normal to have the primers back out a bit with Win mod 94 and marlin 336 with chambers that have been drilled to the maximum SAAMI specification. If you don't hand load try different cartridge manufactures like Remington, Federal, etc. You might find one that fits better. If you hand load you can correct this by fire forming them then setting your resizing die .015" to .020" off the shell holder with the case in the die. This will move the shoulder forward. By doing this you are headspacing the case on the shoulder instead of the rim, thus holding the case head against the bolt face. Just make sure that you keep the cases trimmed to proper length. Also make sure that the bolt will close easily and not be jamming the cartridge hard against the chamber shoulder.

The .30-30 is a low pressure round in regards to other rifle calibers. I load pretty hot and if I didn't do the above I'd have primers backing out .025". I set my resizing die to .030" off the shell holder and no more backed out primers.

rcmodel
July 15, 2009, 11:45 AM
+1

There is probably more variation between different brands of 30-30 ammo then any other cartridge.

Some brands have thinner rims, and they are supposed to headspace on the rim.
And they operate at low pressure. Some brands lower then others, and probably all at lower then SAAMI spec.

SO, combine a loose rim with a gun with a springy action, and less then full pressure loads, and you have the formula for primer setback.

rc

Kernel
July 15, 2009, 04:18 PM
Sad. Sounds like the .30-30 is starting to suffer from .45-70 disease. Manufacturers purposely downloading it due to the possibility it might be used in older, weaker, actions. Another good reason to handload.

rcmodel
July 15, 2009, 04:36 PM
Well, I don't think it is downloaded any more then it ever was.

But it's kinda like the .380 ACP.

SAAMI spec is 21,500, but hardly any factory load is loaded to that.

Those that do call it +P, even though there is no +P standard for the .380, and sell it for bigs bucks.

Those that buy it think they really got something hot, but it is really just what it was supposed to be in the first place.

rc

AgentAdam
July 16, 2009, 12:13 AM
I don't consider many factory loads hot these days. I have only shot 2 boxes threw this gun and i would say the 170g PowerPoints shot a little softer than the 150g like how a 147-158g is softer in a .38 snub than 125g. That might explain why the primers are a little more pushed up.

There might be a little to much head space because when i put a shell fully seated in the chamber and then closed the bolt behind it, the extractor claw didn't quit make it forward enough to get around the rim or extract without me pushing on it a little bit. As mentioned this could be from differences in rim thickness,ect. I bet the Marlin chamber is pretty long. The gun cycles fine regularly. I was planning on loading them mid range any ways.

Did the bore sizes on micro grooved 336 stay similar over the years and should i be looking for some .308 or .311 bullets?

The Bushmaster
July 16, 2009, 09:27 AM
Stay with .308....

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