shotguns for dangerous game?


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bgrav321
July 14, 2009, 03:52 PM
I was in the woods last week meeting my brother and some friends who had brought my guns from home (there was no possible way I could have had them). I walked off into the woods about 30 feet from my parked car when i thought i heard them coming. It was not my brother as i though, but i came face to face with a bear (thankfully they were still a ways up the trail). They were well armed with a mauser, PSL and SKS, but my mosin and tokarev were locked in their car.

I'm looking at Mossberg 500s, and i would carry it on these backpacking expeditions in national forests sometimes in place of my mosin. How effective would 00 buck be on a bear? slugs? I've read many african stories of big cats mauling and killing hunters foolhardy enough to try to hunt them with a shotgun due to the density of their chest muscles (lions, leopards). How effective, if i had to use it, not going hunting here, would it be?

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rcmodel
July 14, 2009, 04:26 PM
I've read many african stories of big cats mauling and killing hunters foolhardy enough to try to hunt them with a shotgun I've probably read just as many stories of African professional hunters using a shotgun as back-up or to go into the brush after a wounded cat.

Alaskan Guides & Game Wardens use 12 Ga pump-guns & Brenneke slugs as Brown bear medicine when packing, around camp, and for animal control.

On the otherhand, you can't just go around the National Forest shooting every Smokie the Bear you see without a hunting licence & bear permit.
For the most part, they are far more afraid of you then you are of them.

rc

bgrav321
July 14, 2009, 06:14 PM
Yeah i'm not looking to go hunting bears at all...and the above mentioned one mosied on along after watching me get back in my car...

I'm not worried about the mosins ability, 7.62 x 54R is capable of taking most if not all things in north america. Just wondering about buckshot in particular.

Girodin
July 14, 2009, 06:35 PM
What do you mean by bear? Black? Brown? Polar? What is adequate for a black bear might be a very poor choice for a grizz.

RatDrall
July 14, 2009, 06:38 PM
A Mossberg 500 or Remington 870, with a short barrel and a sling, would be a fantastic "throwaround" woods gun.

I would go with a bead sight so that when you drop it on a rock you don't break a fragile adjustable rifle type sight.

61chalk
July 14, 2009, 06:44 PM
I've heard of guys killing grizzlies with .12 ga. an slugs. I would use slugs rather than buckshot.

jhco
July 14, 2009, 07:46 PM
good slugs should be effective on most types of bear.

bgrav321
July 14, 2009, 10:22 PM
I'm dealing with black bears in my part of the country. I'm looking to use the gun as a all purpose: home defense, SHTF, and backpacking/woods gun. I trust the power of my mosin, I just want to be sure that a 12 gauge with slugs or 00 buck is capable of taking down an angry black bear, say a mother with cubs.

lobo9er
July 14, 2009, 10:33 PM
yeah man 3 inch slug should about do it and for black bear for sure i get it back up/slash hiking gun i like to roll with my moss 590 a under folder ak packs nice too.

Rshooter
July 17, 2009, 05:59 PM
I know how everybody dislikes PGO's but this might be just the time for a PGO. Sort of a SHTF woods gun loaded with slugs. You would not use it until you know you are in danger of getting mauled so distance would be really short and you should make a hit. I know some guys who fish salmon in bear country carry .44's, one ounce of lead would also seem to work, with more in reserve. Personally I would just prefer to never find out.

Fred Fuller
July 17, 2009, 08:51 PM
There's been a nuisance bear (a black bear) around my in-law's place in the NC mountains lately. My wife is visiting them this weekend- and she's carrying one of the 12 ga. 870 house guns, stoked all the way with Brenneke KOs. It'll do- and more importantly, so will she.

lpl

PJR
July 17, 2009, 10:19 PM
I live on the fringes of bear country and we get them occasionally. 9 times out of 10 they just wander away. It's that 10th bear that sometimes causes concern. I have enough experience with buckshot to not trust it for an angry bruin but have faith in Brenneke slugs and my 870.

huntsman
July 17, 2009, 10:56 PM
Brenneke KOs are supposed to be a great slug to use against a bear but I have no actual experience with shooting a bear with one and I hope I don't find out what it's like. I've had varmit problems before but not of the bear kind. I will be more careful about leaving food where a bear can get to it from now on.

I don't know if I new there was more than a slight chance of shooting a bear I think I'd invest of a box of Heavy Field Short Magnums they are 1-1/4 oz and are 2000 ftlbs at 25 yards.

Virginian
July 18, 2009, 05:37 AM
Over on the handgun forums they are always talking about bear handguns, and I feel that is an oxymoron unless you are going to get him a holster too. I would not want to come face to face with a Brown or other big bear, but if I did I would as soon face it with a 12 gauge 870 as anything else I can think of.
If I was going hunting them, I would want a rifle, and hopefully the encounter would take place at rifle ranges.

A man with a gun!
July 18, 2009, 06:11 AM
I own some remote placer claims and the area is thick with black bears. Have an encounter roughly every other day and so far, all have been peaceful with the bear and myself each going our own ways.

I carry a 870P with the first round 00B as an "attention getter" the remaining rounds are slugs. If it was me or the bear I'd shoot the bear without hesitation. But I gotta admit I'm not too keen on the idea of having to go around a foul smelling-rotting bear carcass every day on my hikes in and out.

Old Guard Dog
July 18, 2009, 07:39 AM
Been hiking in the Colorado Rockies and at least twice over the last ten years, after a large forrest fire, there are signs posted about the danger of mountain lions that were displaced because of the fires. I was not armed, but my choice again would be 12 ga with slugs, probably Brenneke.

I have never seen the cats there, so I don't know how big they are.

THE DARK KNIGHT
July 18, 2009, 07:48 AM
Try a 12gauge with Brenneke Black Magic Magnum 3" slugs, it's good bear medicine IMO.

orphanedcowboy
July 18, 2009, 11:27 AM
I am really interested in these two statements? Would you care to expound on them?


my brother and some friends who had brought my guns from home (there was no possible way I could have had them).



They were well armed with a mauser, PSL and SKS, but my mosin and tokarev were locked in their car.

ElToro
July 18, 2009, 03:55 PM
maybe he is military or college and cant (easily) have them in his possession.

when we go car camping in the sierra's, i roll with a cut down beater A5 i got for $150 with buck shot followed by slugs. if i find something cheaper like a beater 1100 or 1187 i would go with that for ease availability of stock and barell and accessory change outs. backpacking, havnt done too much since boy scouts cuz my wifes not really into it, waiting for my 1 yeard old boy to get a bit older, but i will roll with either my .44 or .45 blackhawk with buffalo bore or equivalent hard cast. more concerned about 2 legged predators where i go camping but im not sweating my ammo choices.

i have seen some african hunting vids of dudes going after leopards with semi auto shotguns and buckshot. there are mtn lions around my house and where i camp. but keeping a shotgun handy is not always easy. thats why i would feel okay with a hard cast .44 or .45

jojo200517
July 19, 2009, 12:08 AM
I carry a 870P with the first round 00B as an "attention getter" the remaining rounds are slugs. If it was me or the bear I'd shoot the bear without hesitation.

When I read "attention getter" my mind immediately goes to "just enough to turn a bear that has raised up on its hind legs showing he is the boss into a really pissed off beast on the charge". Granted it will do some great damage i'd assume but it will spread out and every pellet might not hit. When your face to face with a pissed off bear i'd think the futher away the better and slugs will offer more range. If you make the decision to HAVE to shoot chances are that just like many other self defense situation your going to have to shoot to kill. I wouldn't carry a rubber bullet as the first one in the chamber in my pistol for self defense, so I wouldn't carry any less of a shotgun round than I thought absolutely necessary to do the job. Were not talking about hunting birds or something here were talking something that could rip you limb from limb and litterly eat you.

African big cats are different. I hear about the people carrying shotgun as backup and hunting with double rifle. I call that insane. No way would I go at a lion or any other extreme game with only 2 shots. I go with the more is better theory so I'd probably want something "of the belt fed variety" mounted to the vehicle.

Sunray
July 19, 2009, 01:33 AM
Buckshot, of any size, is unreliable. A well placed slug is.
"...fragile adjustable rifle type sight..." Fragile they ain't. Crude, yes.
"...hunters foolhardy enough to try to hunt them with a shotgun..." Peter Capstick regularly wrote about using buckshot for baited leopards. Not for lions though. A big, male, leopard runs 200ish pounds. A small, male, lion runs 300 pounds. A big lion can go over 500 pounds.

A man with a gun!
July 19, 2009, 09:00 AM
"When I read "attention getter" my mind immediately goes to "just enough to turn a bear that has raised up on its hind legs showing he is the boss into a really pissed off beast on the charge".

Only in the movies. A bear that's up on his hind legs is not necessarly a threat. They frequently do that when curious, probably not a sign of aggression. No harm-no foul.

It's the bear crashing through the brush at 35 mph. making a bee line straight for you who's the threat.

jojo200517
July 19, 2009, 11:48 PM
It's the bear crashing through the brush at 35 mph. making a bee line straight for you who's the threat.

That was my exact point, your gonna want every round of git-r-dun that you can have then, not one that might "get its attention" first, if its charging its attention is well got.

steveracer
July 20, 2009, 12:26 AM
Worry more about the cats. The rule of thumb for cats is simple: Not a man on two feet can, unarmed, face a sixty-pound cat or larger and survive.
Cats in some parts of the West get over 225! Teddy Roosavelt killed a 234 pound cat with a knife. Yup, a knife. He had the advantage of eight dogs with him, two of which died in the event.
Cats don't play games. If you are going to bring a long gun into the wild, definitely bring slugs, and for God's sake, please keep it loaded and handy.

Birdmang
July 20, 2009, 12:33 AM
Do cats really hide in trees and pounce on prey...including humans?

steveracer
July 20, 2009, 12:45 AM
They are most often killed when discovered tracking something else. A deer, a rabbit, a hunter, etc.

Antihero
July 20, 2009, 12:56 AM
I just want to be sure that a 12 gauge with slugs or 00 buck is capable of taking down an angry black bear, say a mother with cubs.

With slugs, sure. We're talking about a nearly .75 inch 500-ish grain lump of lead going around 1600fps. It packs a punch.

Id load it with Brenneke style slugs instead of Foster style though. 2 3/4 are fine as well.

chudykGT
July 20, 2009, 02:00 AM
I have a rem 870 with 2 rnd extension for hiking in the woods. Black bears are what we face, if they don't run away. ( of the 2 we have ever seen, one ambled away, the other ran) In the oddity that it decides we are edible it gets 00b as a "loud noise and a stinging sensation, maybe I should not eat them" followed by 5 1 oz rifled slugs. What are these Brenekke slugs? What are the weights and velocities? What is different about them? I use Winchester hollow point Super X slugs.

smithmax
July 20, 2009, 02:20 AM
wiki:

"The Brenneke slug was developed by the famous German gun and ammunition designer Wilhelm Brenneke (1865–1951) in 1898. The original Brenneke slug is a solid lead slug with fins cast onto the outside, much like a rifled Foster slug. There is a plastic, felt or cellulose fiber wad attached to the base that remains attached after firing. This wad serves both as a gas seal and as a form of drag stabilization, much like the mass-forward design of the Foster slug. The "fins" impart little or no spin to the projectile; their purpose is to decrease the bearing surface of the slug to the barrel and therefore reduce friction and increase velocity.

Since the Brenneke slug is solid, rather than hollow like the Foster slug, the Brenneke will generally deform less on impact and provide deeper penetration (see terminal ballistics). The sharp shoulder and flat front of the Brenneke (similar in dimensions to a wadcutter bullet) mean that its external ballistics restrict it to short range use, as it does not hold velocity well. The Brenneke slug in 12 gauge is well suited for large and dangerous game at close ranges, and deer sized game or antipersonnel use out to about 50 yards (46 m).[1]"

huntsman
July 20, 2009, 09:00 AM
What are these Brenekke slugs? What are the weights and velocities?

http://www.brennekeusa.com/

Fred Fuller
July 20, 2009, 09:28 AM
Brennekes are solid hard lead alloy, with sharp shoulders. Their wad is attached to the base of the slug, to provide stability in flight like the fletching on an arrow. They cut nice cookie-cutter holes and keep on goin' as far as penetration is concerned.

Most Foster type slugs are dead soft lead, and hollow based in a sort of badminton shuttlecock design to keep them flying nose first. They can flatten on impact, which can lessen penetration- NOT what you want on critters that might eat or stomp (or shoot or cut) you if you just make them mad. I use Brenneke KOs when slugs are called for... as an added bonus, they've grouped nicely in every shotgun I have shot them through.

lpl

mgkdrgn
July 20, 2009, 09:48 AM
12ga slug will take down anything you are going to run into in North America.

bgrav321
July 20, 2009, 04:21 PM
to answer orphaned, here's my story.

I'm working at a camp this summer and they request you don't bring personal rifles or handguns. So I had my bro bring them up, leave them in his car, which he then locked (good idea) and he parked at the head of the trail where I went to meet them. They had spent the night and we hiking out, then we were going back in to shoot. I was waiting for them, and they each had a large rifle and handgun, and I had a large rifle and handgun, but they were locked in his car.

I used to live in Africa, and I read many stories of buckshot being used to ill effect on lions. I've seen pictures where the buckshot barely went through the skin because of the density of chest muscles. It's penetration I'm worried about here. If a cat /bear is charging head on at you, you either get a head shot (hard on a moving target) or hit it in the vitals, which means going through the chest. Well slugs penetrate the chest muscles head of a charging cat? Say a cougar? Or a bear?

steveracer
July 20, 2009, 09:06 PM
Yep. Brennekes will certainly do it. You should be able to fire all of them into a playing card at 25M, standing. This will give you the kind of accuracy you will need.

tactikel
July 20, 2009, 09:53 PM
I have a rem 870 with 2 rnd extension for hiking in the woods. Black bears are what we face, if they don't run away. ( of the 2 we have ever seen, one ambled away, the other ran) In the oddity that it decides we are edible it gets 00b as a "loud noise and a stinging sensation, maybe I should not eat them" followed by 5 1 oz rifled slugs. What are these Brenekke slugs? What are the weights and velocities? What is different about them? I use Winchester hollow point Super X slugs.
__________________

An enraged black bear can cover 25 yards in about 1.5 seconds, how many aimed shots can your 870 get off, after your warning shot, in the time you have left? My advice it to kill it with the first shot, and keep the others as backup.:D

MrCleanOK
July 20, 2009, 11:04 PM
3" Brenneke Black Magics will put a hurt on anything walking in North America, and a pump shotgun gives you great speed for follow-up shots that is hard to match.

SeekHer
July 21, 2009, 05:49 AM
This might be of some help...
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/SeekHer/SeekHer%20-%20Firearms/a594d9d0.jpg

Do not use buckshot as it doesn't have the penetration that a slug has...

Facing you, aim for his nose...

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