[SHusky57]

This is NOT, I repeat, NOT intended to be a .357 mag vs 45 acp thread.

What I am wondering is what is the cause of the .357 magnum's mythic status of uber-stopping power? .45 has a bigger diameter, and with 230 grains has quite a bit more weight than the 125-158 .357 range, but I do know that that .357 has an extra 400-500 fps going for it.

Is the .357 magnum's power over-rated? Is it on par with the 45? Are both grossly over-rated (I mean c'mon, we are talking pistols here)? Is .357 magnum just fine against all mean, eat your face off animals south of Canada (Alaskan Grizzlies don't count)?

My Glock 21 can have 13 rounds of .45 ACP.... But there really is something to the balance and aesthetics of a good .357 revolver.

I find myself mostly carrying a S&W 442 in these hot summer months, and I'm thinking about putting a .357 big brother in the nightstand. I may just load it with the same 125 gr +P 38s that I put in my 442, but comparing 38 +p to 357 mag makes it look like a pea-shooter (half the energy and velocity with the same weight).

So for those 357 fanatics out there, pour your brains out for me and let me pick them :-).

I was thinking about getting a S&W 625 in 45 ACP to keep logistics simple, but with the ammo shortage it seems that having an alternate caliber could be beneficial. All they had on the shelves at academy today for defensive ammo was Speer Gold Dot in 38 +P.... which thankfully I was able to make use of due to the SW 442.

So, in comparison to other calibers what are the strengths of 357 mag compared to other calibers, especially against big meat-eating animals. Against a 300-400 lbs hog, are 45 ACP and .357 mag equally suited or does the .357 have an advantage.... and I know what you are thinking - just get a .44 MAG. Well I just might sir! But it seems a little over-kill for home protection, and I crave versatility.

[velojym]

Between the big'n'slow and small'n'fast bullets, I believe it's just two roads leading to the same place (bad guy on floor). We have those two calibers at home, and I don't feel undergunned with either.

I am a bit more accurate with the revolver, though I do well enough with my autos. Always needing more practice, though. :)

[SHusky57]

I forgot to add, do you need to detail strip a revolver to clean it ever? Anyone that can follow Lego instructions can detail strip a Glock - but I wouldn't know where to begin with a revolver, or if I should just take it to a smith every 5 years to get cleaned.

[SaxonPig]

45 vs 357 will never end.

Either will kill a man.

Mainly you are choosing the platform rather than the caliber. If you prefer the 1911 then you tend to prefer the 45 ACP. If you favor a revolver the 357 is a great choice.

IMO (for what it's worth) I have always been bothered by the 45's lack of velocity. I like my handgun bullets to have a chance of expansion and I do not trust any 45 ACP load to do that. Even the 185 JHPs do not expand well or reliably. The 357's vastly superior velocity makes the bullet perform better on target. If choosing a handgun based on power I go with the 357 because no matter the 45 looks like on paper, if it doesn't expand it is less effective.

Fact is, if I were to pack a 1911 it would be a 38 Super for the reasons cited above. My Super load is a 115 JHP at a measured 1425 FPS. I can load 10 rounds in a single stack gun. I am simply not a big fan of the 45 ACP.

I have only seen one man actually get shot and it was with a 45 ACP using 230 grain loads. Guy took 3 solid hits to the chest and ran 50 yards before being dropped by a 4th hit in the kidney. I came away from that experience doubting all the stories I had heard of the 45's tremendous stopping power.

[saturno_v]

What I am wondering is what is the cause of the .357 magnum's mythic status of uber-stopping power? .45 has a bigger diameter, and with 230 grains has quite a bit more weight than the 125-158 .357 range, but I do know that that .357 has an extra 400-500 fps going for it.


You answered to that question yourself....much more energy and better SD, even with a lighter bullet (158-200 gr. range) will result in higher penetration capability...against a regular individual you would probably not notice the difference but the 357 shines when you take in consideration light barriers, heavy clothing, etc...

It is similar to the comparison between the 40 and the 45, albeit the difference is not as dramatic.

[buck460XVR]

45 vs 357 will never end.

Either will kill a man.

Mainly you are choosing the platform rather than the caliber. If you prefer the 1911 then you tend to prefer the 45 ACP. If you favor a revolver the 357 is a great choice.


I agree......on two legged varmits. The longer range and larger size four legged critters is where the .357 widens the gap.

.....but then again, I like wheelguns.:D

[Guillermo]

as Saturno said it is about energy and velocity.

Speer Gold Dot
has 230 grain 45ACP that has a muzzle velocity of 890 and a muzzle energy of 404 ft/lbs of energy

Speer also has a 158 grain 357 magnum that has a muzzle velocity of 1235 and muzzle energy of 535 ft/lbs of energy

[Oro]

do you need to detail strip a revolver to clean it ever?

No. You can use a revolver a lifetime and not need to open it up. In fact, unless you have detailed instructions and some basic competency with machinery, I would encourage the average owner to not even attempt to go poking inside unless something is broken and they know what they are doing.

Ok, back on track - I definitely love the .357 - but I also have quite a few .45s because of the 1911 platform - it's just so compelling. But for serious situations, I think a .357 always has an edge for the reasons mentioned.

If you prefer the 1911 then you tend to prefer the 45 ACP. If you favor a revolver the 357 is a great choice.

Exactly. The 1911 is just a wonderful platform, and the .45 the natural choice in it that optimizes the platform. If the .45acp round were the end-all cartridge, then most people would choose revolvers chambered in .44 Special, the cartridge most like the .45acp (save for .45AR, of course). In a revolver, the .357 magnum tends to maximize the platform - .44magnum is just often too much. This is the point that 10mm fans usually jump in - a .357-like round in an autoloader.

I keep a 1911 style .45 and a .357 in my nightstand. But when I need to carry a gun in the mountains or woods - my priority is to always take a .357 unless in grizzly habitat, and then upgun even beyond that. Sometimes I will take a .45 for the nostalgia and because I do love the 1911, but I always feel better with a .357 at least.

[DBR]

"So, in comparison to other calibers what are the strengths of 357 mag compared to other calibers, especially against big meat-eating animals. Against a 300-400 lbs hog"

I have shot a 200# Russian Boar with a 4" 357 using 158gr Federal HP ammo. Range was about 30yds. Four rounds hit in the chest area and were recovered fully expanded. The Boar was not impressed until I put the 5th shot under his ear. I know (now), bad choice of ammo (should have used 180gr hardcast flat point) and caliber (should have used 44 Mag with 300gr hardcast flat point).

I would not consider using ANY normal caliber handgun against a dangerous two legged or four legged critter unless I could guarantee CNS shot placement (not likely) or had absolutely no other options.

I don't mean I think they can't work. Heck, you can kill most animals with a 22lr if things are just right. I just like better odds.

These days I prefer 12ga slugs.

[.38 Special]

What I am wondering is what is the cause of the .357 magnum's mythic status of uber-stopping power?

Probably the work of Marshall and Sanow. Their "one shot stop" statistics place the .357/125 JHP at the very top of the heap.

[DBR]

There is another theory floating around that I think has some merit.

The 125gr Federal 357 HP ammo that was used when M&S got their info was a very hot load running 1400-1500 FPS from a typical 4" revolver. The other 125gr loads were near this intensity.

A significant portion of "one shot stops" are as much psychological as physical. The muzzle blast from the round is in the 165+DB range from the shooters position and could be expected to be considerably louder from the shootee's position. This amount of noise is close to stun grenade intensity and could account for part of the rounds effectiveness. At least at short ranges where most of their shootings happened.

[saturno_v]

Speer also has a 158 grain 357 magnum that has a muzzle velocity of 1235 and muzzle energy of 535 ft/lbs of energy


Guillermo

Adding to what you said, that 357 158 gr. load you mentioned is not even a full spec one....a full SAAMI spec 357 load in 158 gr. deliver ~700 ft/lb of muzzle energy or more...

[saturno_v]

I have shot a 200# Russian Boar with a 4" 357 using 158gr Federal HP ammo. Range was about 30yds. Four rounds hit in the chest area and were recovered fully expanded. The Boar was not impressed until I put the 5th shot under his ear. I know (now), bad choice of ammo (should have used 180gr hardcast flat point) and caliber (should have used 44 Mag with 300gr hardcast flat point).


DBR

What kind of ammo were you using?? Defensive 357 loads nowdays are way watered down compared to full spec....and yes Hollow Point are not the best choice for hunting...

I heard of people, even here on THR, using 357 (revolver or carbine) against boar and they were very happy with the results

[earlthegoat2]

temporary wound cavity and permanent wound channel

both are bigger with the 357 125gr@1400fps compared to the 45 ACP 230gr@850fps

[The_Seventh_Sign]

In Indiana you can hunt deer with a .357 Magnum.

In Indiana the deer may not be hunted with a 45 auto.

Both would leave the perp just as dead, just one is not legal to hunt with.
Go figure as to why.

Personally i tried shooting with a 357 in the left hand and the 45 auto in the otther at one target.
Yes people look at you oddly but it was more fun to shoot that way once and a while to make you feel like a movie star.
The target didn't stand a chance, it was a pepper patterned shot up deal.
Bang with the sited in left then bang with the sited in right back and forth until you need a new mag and more rounds.

If your feeling really brave use two targets space them out and try to aim at them at the same time and test your self on how well you can shoot either eye either hand. both in the right hand said i need more practice my left hand was laughing at my right with the 357 i shot better.

TSS

[MagnumWill]

Well, I'd have to agree with everyone that either one wouldn't be pleasant. I might be a little off on this, but I believe (or i've heard) that Elmer Keith and some other guys developed the .357 magnum to one-up the .38 Super Automatic, since they were both "intended" to pierce gangster's cars in the '30s and '40s (or so i've heard).

You'll have to explain what you mean by "over-rated". Over-rated as in over-hyped (Man! it was so loud and the thing almost flew out of my hand, etc) or over-rated specwise(500 ft.lb. but advertised as 600 ft.lb.). Personally, I think neither. Go shoot one for yourself- they're nothing to joke about, but it's still a typical pistol round. And 700 ft.lb. can be easily acheived with it- Pick up a box of Buffalo Bore ammo for it out of Cabelas- Like someone said prior, they're loaded to maximum SAAMI. :D

And cleaning a wheelgun isn't hard- but then again, I have every tool I could possibly need. ;)

[suemarkp]

For targets larger than people size, the 357 has advantages over 45 ACP because the 45 ACP doesn't take well to heavy bullets (heavy for caliber -- 250gr and up). If you're thinking of a S&W 625, things get more complicated. Because its a revolver, you can seat the bullet long and up the powder a bit. This would best be done in 45AR brass instead of 45 ACP so you don't mix them up. A 45 Colt -vs- 357 Mag would be a closer race, even if the 45 wasn't +P+.

I have an old Handloader article about hopping up the 45 Auto Rim. They were getting 250gr bullets to a bit over 1000 fps and staying within 45 ACP pressures. Seating depth was shallow... A 625 should be able to take 45 ACP pressures all day, and those are about 3000 PSI higher than 45 Colt. I wouldn't go much above this though, as the 625 isn't intended to be a magnum platform.

[DBR]

saturno v:

As I said, I was using full power Federal 158gr HP ammo. This was a while back 1995 I think. The bullets couldn't get through the heavy gristle plates over the boar's ribs. They didn't get into anything meaningful.

I think the 357 with hot 180gr hardcast flatnose loads would penetrate enough if you put them in the right spot. Boars can be dangerous and if I were to hunt one again I would want at least a 30 caliber rifle or a shotgun with hard Brenekke slugs.

[BCRider]

For a defensive round I haven't seen anything about the shock and noise. On that front the .357 wins hands down for greater recoil shock, much more noise and typically a big fireball. Especially on shorter barrels.

So if you're looking at that point there's a lot to be said for the more pleasant manners of a .45ACP if things are in a serious stew.

And I'm glad to see someone pull out the 625 option that blends the revolver and the .45 just to cloud the picture :D

[pps]

I like the option of using my .357 for hunting. 185gr LBT over 15.8gr of h110 for 1200 ft/sec of bone smackin' goodness and flat trajectory. Pick your shots carefully. The last 200# sow I took went down with one broadside shot from 50 yards.

Don't know if I could have made that shot with the 45, but I've not practiced at that distance with the .45 either.

[C-grunt]

I think the .357 got its reputation because of the early hollow points used. Many wouldnt expand unless they had a lot of velocity and others that did expand didnt penetrate well because they were to light. I think the .357 was able to launch a bullet heavy enough to penetrate well at a velocity that help with expansion.

I personally believe that if they had modern hollowpoints back when they first came out, the .357 wouldnt have the reputation it has today because the .38 would have been a very effective round in a full size revolver.

[StrawHat]

Probably the work of Marshall and Sanow. Their "one shot stop" statistics place the .357/125 JHP at the very top of the heap.


M&S cherry picked their data, using only incidents involving one shot.

[76shuvlinoff]

I have both a big heavy full size 1911 with big slow 230 grainers in it and a big heavy SA ruger loaded 158 grain leverevolution rounds within reach of my pillow. what's not to love?

If I have to go into home defense mode with pistols I think I have it covered.

[SHusky57]

I have both a big heavy full size 1911 with big slow 230 grainers in it and a big heavy SA ruger loaded 158 grain leverevolution rounds within reach of my pillow. what's not to love?

Some of us like to keep it simple.... complexity means more room for kuff-ups, and not only do you have 2 guns to pick from, but they both operate completely differently.

Part of me is wondering if 45 Long Colt will be a better cartridge for what I want.... or maybe even 454 casull, but just shoot 45 LC out of it. I don't want to be hog food, but not everyone can carry a shotgun around everytime they are out in the woods.

Also, does 357 perform best out of a 6" barrel? I've heard 4" isn't enough for some reason or other from some gunshop commando worker..... I know it will perform better, but is 6" optimal for a 357 revolver?

[Madcap_Magician]

45 vs 357 will never end.

Either will kill a man.

Mainly you are choosing the platform rather than the caliber. If you prefer the 1911 then you tend to prefer the 45 ACP. If you favor a revolver the 357 is a great choice.

IMO (for what it's worth) I have always been bothered by the 45's lack of velocity. I like my handgun bullets to have a chance of expansion and I do not trust any 45 ACP load to do that. Even the 185 JHPs do not expand well or reliably. The 357's vastly superior velocity makes the bullet perform better on target. If choosing a handgun based on power I go with the 357 because no matter the 45 looks like on paper, if it doesn't expand it is less effective.

Fact is, if I were to pack a 1911 it would be a 38 Super for the reasons cited above. My Super load is a 115 JHP at a measured 1425 FPS. I can load 10 rounds in a single stack gun. I am simply not a big fan of the 45 ACP.

I have only seen one man actually get shot and it was with a 45 ACP using 230 grain loads. Guy took 3 solid hits to the chest and ran 50 yards before being dropped by a 4th hit in the kidney. I came away from that experience doubting all the stories I had heard of the 45's tremendous stopping power.

I saw a similar nightmare story about the .357 on the ODMP.

Officer on a traffic stop was shot by a perp with a .22 derringer. First round hit the officer square in the vest and was stopped without a problem. Officer fired five rounds of .357 at the perp and hit him in the leg and three times in the torso, then retreated to his vehicle to call for backup.

Perp, who is still active, fires his last .22, which goes into the officer's armpit and penetrates his heart, killing him nearly instantly.

Perp survives the multiple .357 hits.

[batmann]

Or you could by-pass both and go directly to a .44M/Spl----Settling the 9MM vs .45 ACP debate for over 100 years. LOL

[nitetrane98]

During my years as a LEO probably 80% of the officers I worked with carried some flavor of .357, myself included. A lot of us based our choice on M&S's research. Looking back analytically, there was likely to have been an astounding over-representation of .357's used in one shot stops. Even if they cherry picked and only used one shot stops based on numbers available the .357 couldn't help but come out the winner. However, the fact remains that there were a lot of OSS's with the .357. It earned a reputation with the Texas DPS as having "Thunderbolt" stopping power and was one reason they chose to use the .357 SIG when they transitioned to semi auto after trying the .40S&W. So I have read.

[MCgunner]

I like .45ACP in autos. I prefer .357 in revolvers. I like 9x19 in pocket autos and .38 special in pocket revolvers. They all have a place in my collection. I have killed deer with the .357, very fine outdoor round. I love the versatility of it and revolvers, able to do small game with the .38 and plinkin' like a .22, yet the power to knock a 300 lb boar on is butt at 50 yards with a good 180 grain load. And, from a rifle, the .357 is a whole nuther story! .357/.38 is still my fav and what I load the most of with my press, but I do like the ol' .45ACP for things like pins, plates, pepper poppers, and such momentum games. In a fight, six of one, half dozen of the other.

As to the .357s rep, it comes from law enforcement and street shootings from the 50s on until the era of the wondernine when departments armed up with 125 grain JHPs from outfits like "Super Vel" in the 60s. These rounds were tough on K frames, but they just simply worked on the street. .45ACP, at the time, was a military round and it nor autos in general were in the holsters of the police. Revolvers were the tools of choice. JHPs developed in .357s and revolvers and really didn't make it to the auto scene for some time. They tended to make autos jam and there weren't that many autos to choose from in the first place back then. Glock hadn't even been thought of.

To understand why the word "magnum" had such a mystique back then, just watch Dirty Harry, "Magnum Force". LOL But, there was truth behind that mystique. The .357 magnum was and is a very good one shot fight stopper, at the top of the list in street shootings and there's LOTS of data for the round to back that up.

[Guillermo]

Adding to what you said, that 357 158 gr. load you mentioned is not even a full spec one

Sorry, I just went to the firt convenient sight (speer) and pulled some #'s


M&S cherry picked their data, using only incidents involving one shot

Wouldn't the one-shot-stop be the very definition of "uber-stopping power"?

[MCgunner]

I saw a similar nightmare story about the .357 on the ODMP.

Officer on a traffic stop was shot by a perp with a .22 derringer. First round hit the officer square in the vest and was stopped without a problem. Officer fired five rounds of .357 at the perp and hit him in the leg and three times in the torso, then retreated to his vehicle to call for backup.

Perp, who is still active, fires his last .22, which goes into the officer's armpit and penetrates his heart, killing him nearly instantly.

Perp survives the multiple .357 hits.

Okay, based on this, I'm selling all my .357s and carrying my .22 NAA mini from now on. Anyone want a .357? It's free, ya know.

[MCgunner]

Part of me is wondering if 45 Long Colt will be a better cartridge for what I want.... or maybe even 454 casull, but just shoot 45 LC out of it. I don't want to be hog food, but not everyone can carry a shotgun around everytime they are out in the woods.

Also, does 357 perform best out of a 6" barrel? I've heard 4" isn't enough for some reason or other from some gunshop commando worker..... I know it will perform better, but is 6" optimal for a 357 revolver?

You a city boy? Just wonderin'. Hogs don't eat people. :rolleyes: You have nothing to worry about. You have black bear, then there is a bit of concern, but there might be 2 bear attacks a decade in the US? I don't know, but it's low probability, put it that way. I don't worry much about critters, a little when I'm kayakin' around gators, but not that much. I usually have my .38 spl CCW on me. A gator will be dissuaded by a .38 if I had to use it. Plenty of time for a good head shot.



I get about 600 ft lbs out of a 4" .357 with a good load that I get about 785 ft lbs out of my 6.5" Ruger Blackhawk with. I hunt with the blackhawk, but when hiking in bear country, the 4" medium frame DA goes with me, is plenty with a 165 grain gas checked hard cast SWC with 14.5 grains of 2400 pushing it. I've killed three deer and multiple hogs quite dead with the .357 magnum.

[Vern Humphrey]

The .357 is a fine cartridge (I carried a Colt M357 my first tour in Viet Nam.) Now that I've established my bona fides let me point out that the .357 benefitted from one hell of a publicity job.

As everyone knows, the .357 is a stretched .38 Special loaded to much higher pressures. It was based on the earlier .38/44, which was a high-pressure .38 Special in a .44-frame heavy revolver. The genesis of the .38/44 was police complaints that the .38 Special would not penetrate car bodies. Since the .38/44 could be fired in ordinary .38 Special revolvers, S&W and Winchester (which developed the ammo) soon stretched the case to prevent such a mixup.

Douglas Wesson, the then president of Smith and Wesson, knew he had a winner, and he chose the name, ".357 Magnum." The Magnum name was coined by Holland and Holland in 1912 for their belted .375 and was responsible for that cartridge overcoming doubts that such a "small" cartridge was useful for big game in Africa and India. When H&H brought out a necked-down version of the .375 Magnum, they called it the ".300 Super" and it went nowhere. They changed the name to ".300 Magnum" and it did better. About the time the .357 came out, Ben Comfort won the Wimbledon shooting a .300 Magnum, and the name was on every shooter's lips.

Wesson worked hard to create the ".357 mystique." The early .357s were called "Registered Magums" and were special-order guns, which enhanced their prestige and snob appeal. Smith and Wesson fostered stories among police that it would shoot through the engine block of a car, and so on. Doug Wesson hunted with it, killing a polar bear as well as an african lion, and those feats were widely publicized.

So the legend of the .357 was deliberately created. It won't shoot through an engine block, and it really isn't adquate for big game, but the legend was more important that reality.

It is indeed a fine cartridge and probably offers the best balance between power and controllability of any self-defense or police revolver cartridge. In tems of "stopping power" (whatever that means), it is fully the equal of the .45 ACP and for a long time, before bullets that expand reliably at low velocities were developed, had a real edge.

[L-Frame]

In terms of handgun ammo, the .357 may have been hyperbolized, but it still is as good a handgun round on humans as can be had. That is if you can deal with the noise and recoil of the round. I love revolvers and carry them and I admit that they are unpleasant for me to the point that I will not carry them. I carry BB 158 +Ps.

I wish people would stop worrying about carrying the "ultimate round" and just carry the one that they shoot best and are most comfortable with.

[woodwrkr]

Hogs can in fact be dangerous. We have plenty of them around my neck of the woods.

[Dogbite]

I am a big believer in both 357 magnum, and 45acp. I do prefer 45+p when I shoot 45 though. I have been shooting both these cartridges for 35 years, and I can tell you the 357 magnum is not just a bunch of hype. Any seasoned shooter knows it is serious business. It will take a deer with no problems(at bow ranges), and it is suburb as a defense round, having put armies of men in the morgue, likewise the 45acp.

[BlayGlock]

Post #10

[Oyeboten]

As an aside -


Hogs can and do and will eat people...if not being predatory about it, they will none-the-less gladly eat freshly dead people, or, Hogs can kill a person in peak of ire, and then eat them as an incidental.


Many a 'body' has been disappeared by merely being set for the Hogs to get to...and nothing would be left by day two, but Hog-poop...and maybe part of a Shoe.


This used to be well understood by Farmers and old-time Organized Crime people.

[Vern Humphrey]

Or as we say in the Ozarks, "I haven't laughed so hard since the hogs ate my little brother."

[Confederate]

Not all .357 mags are superior to the .45 auto. When it comes to putting down people, the 125gr JHP tops just about any other handgun load. Going down to 110gr JHPs, the load comes apart too easily and often in the heavy clothing of the bad guy. Heavier loads like 158gr JHPs work much better on deer and bear, but they have too much penetration for humans and recoil is excessive.

The .357 mag is, in my opinion, a much better caliber because of its flat trajectory and its effectiveness out to 100+ yards. The .45 trajectory drops off rapidly and it loses its magic punch in relatively short distances. The 125-140gr JHPs also are superior in penetrating cars and trucks.

For the .45 ACP, I'd pick the 185gr JHP for best stopping power, but for sheer versatility, you can't beat the .357 mag. Neither is anemic by any means, but the .357 just allows users an incredibly wide variety of loads that work out to rather amazing distances. With just a 2.75-inch Ruger Security-Six, I was able to break orange clay pigeons at 100 yards one time out of three (and the other two kicked up dirt mighty close). I could never have hit close to that with a .45 or 9mm auto. With a 125gr JHP, I could hit a person more often than not at that range. And while it's true that you most often will not need to hit anyone or anything at that distance, I could comfortably hunt with a .357 or defend myself from black bear with heavier loads. I just couldn't do that with a .45 auto.

Having said that, the .45 offers greater firepower and would be superior for engaging multiple targets at normal encounter ranges.

[texas bulldog]

M&S cherry picked their data, using only incidents involving one shot.

how else do you propose to measure "one-shot stop" effectiveness? that study isn't the end of the discussion or anything, but to disregard it based on the above complaint seems to miss the point. of course, most all .45 ACP fans can't stand that study because .357 mag beat out their pet round. personally, i like both.

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
M&S cherry picked their data, using only incidents involving one shot.
how else do you propose to measure "one-shot stop" effectiveness?
Actually, they faked the data. There are people they cited as sources who claim they never gave them data. That's why they won't release their database for peer review.

[MCgunner]

Well this IS a .357 thread, but I don't fear hogs eating me. Low, though I walk through the valley of hog death I shall fear no evil, because I'm the baddest SOB in the valley. Hogs are scared of people, they know we are the top dog. They don't HUNT humans for food. They aren't polar bears. They will only attack if attacked. Wound a hog, blood trail it and catch up with it, and yeah, they're quite dangerous. I've been attacked by one, myself. One 165 grain .357 to the head stopped that post haste.

I've killed hogs with a knife, so I guess I'm tougher than ol' Davey Crockett, though. :D He did kill a bar when he was only three. I think I was out of 3 cornered pants by then.

Every time I go down to my place, I KNOW I'm being watched from the oak mots. They're so thick, you can't get in there, yet there are hog trails all in and out of 'em. That's where they all hang out. I hear 'em squeal every now and then back in those mots. I carry when I'm down there not because I fear being eaten, but because if I see one, I wanna eat HIM. :D

[MCgunner]

Or as we say in the Ozarks, "I haven't laughed so hard since the hogs ate my little brother."

Or, "Jist cause we're gitt'n a DEEvorce, does that mean we caint still be brother and sister?" :D

[.38 Special]

Actually, they faked the data. There are people they cited as sources who claim they never gave them data. That's why they won't release their database for peer review.

That's a hell of an accusation, especially without any proof.

I personally don't think their work is the whole story, but I'm awfully sick of the character assassination and related bull**** that their detractors are always dredging up.

[Vern Humphrey]

That's a hell of an accusation, especially without any proof.
Pardon me, but people have denied giving them data.

And Sanow has said that they won't release the data base because of what their "detractors" might do with it.

I personally don't think their work is the whole story, but I'm awfully sick of the character assassination and related bull**** that their detractors are always dredging up.
Better have proof before you accuse others of character assassination.

Go here: http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

[.38 Special]

You repeating something isn't proof. And "they won't release the data base because of what their 'detractors' might do with it" is already backpedaling, considering your original accusation was that they won't release it because it's fake.

[Vern Humphrey]

Nor is your accusation of character assassination proof.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

[.38 Special]

I just knew you were going to put up a link to "firearmstactical". Those folks have been at the forefront of the "personal attack in lieu of substantive debate" crowd for years.

So, do you have any actual evidence?

[Gryffydd]

As I said, I was using full power Federal 158gr HP ammo.
Federal doesn't even make any full power .357 ammo. Compare their offerings to Buffalo Bore and Double Tap. Federal's best in the energy department is 609 ft/lb. Buffalo Bore's push over 800 ft/lb.

[Gryffydd]

So, do you have any actual evidence?
All it takes to realize that M&S were full of it is about 5 minutes of logical thought. Taking a statistics class or two helps also.

[Vern Humphrey]

I just knew you were going to put up a link to "firearmstactical". Those folks have been at the forefront of the "personal attack in lieu of substantive debate" crowd for years.

I just knew you were going to make another accusation with no proof. Where's your proof that their analysis of Marshall and Sanow is a "personal attack in lieu of substantive debate?"

[.38 Special]

When the first line of a "research paper" reads "Evan Marshall has been a bad joke to almost every technically trained person ever since his earliest articles on his 'data base' were published" you don't need an advanced degree to figure out the score.

[Vern Humphrey]

All it takes to realize that M&S were full of it is about 5 minutes of logical thought. Taking a statistics class or two helps also.
Amen.

Even if their data were valid (and people they cite as sources deny giving them data), the "statistical analysis" is laughable.

[Gryffydd]

This ought get good...I'm grabbing some popcorn.
http://www.forumammo.com/cpg/albums/userpics/10062/popcornic3ba6.gif

[Vern Humphrey]

When the first line of a "research paper" reads "Evan Marshall has been a bad joke to almost every technically trained person ever since his earliest articles on his 'data base' were published" you don't need an advanced degree to figure out the score.
Ah, the opening line. Did you read farther?

[.38 Special]

This ought get good...I'm grabbing some popcorn.

I'm not going to get into it again. The bottom line is that Sanow and Marshall's work is probably flawed. It's also the best thing we've got so far. The detractors seem to be primarily made up of little Facklers who automatically dismiss anything that might discredit the ".45 ball is magic" school of thought. And their argument is 90% ad hom with just a enough "fact-like" observations to keep folks from simply walking away.

That all stopped being interesting to me a long time ago. It's just a shame that the mere mention of Marshall and Sanow is enough to derail a thread.

[.38 Special]

Ah, the opening line. Did you read farther?

Yeah, we're done, Vern. I've never gotten anywhere with the folks who think character assassination is a good substitute for research and critical thinking, and I doubt it would be any different this time.

[Vern Humphrey]

I've never gotten anywhere with the folks who think character assassination is a good substitute for research and critical thinking, and I doubt it would be any different this time.
You keep slinging that accusation of "character assassination" around with no proof.

Have you realized that you're doing what you accuse others of doing?

[.38 Special]

Did you notice the part about "Evan Marshall is a bad joke"? Do you even know what "character assassination" is?

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

I have both .357 and a .45 auto !i don't feel under gunned with either ! For your purposes maybe a ruger redhawk in .45 colt would be best ! you can load defensive ammo for home or ruger only loads for hunting and large angry critter control ! as for taking a revolver apart !! there are lots springy flying out and getting lost parts inside ! Be careful ! Kevin

[MCgunner]

All it takes to realize that M&S were full of it is about 5 minutes of logical thought. Taking a statistics class or two helps also.

I've had college statistics, biologist, not a statistician. I think their work, while not the end all, is good for .357. There's a huge data base there. The calibers to look for error are the ones with small data bases. Of course, being a master statistician, you know that the larger the data base, the smaller the variance caused by "degrees of freedom" (n-1).

[Marlin 45 carbine]

I pick up scrap 14 ga hot rolled at work to make targets from. I weld a piece of scrap angle or pipe on each side of the rectangle I shape from the scrap sheet so they can be driven into the ground. a .45acp 230 gr fmj from a Colt 1911 puts a bigger dent in the steel than a .357 mag 125gr semi-jacket sp from a 6" revolver. this is at a fairly close range about 50'. doesn't really tell us much I suppose.
I shoot .380acp, 9mm Mak, 9mm Para, .357 mag (ruger gp100 4" a good woods bumming gun) Colt 1911, S&W 625 5" into that steel and they all leave a ding.
a hot 147gr 9mmPara really 'whacks' from my Marlin Camp 9. so does a hot 185gr or 200 gr from my .45acp Camp.
I don't wish to be in the path of any of 'em.

[earlthegoat2]

I have had a little experience with pure statistics and a little actuarial science to boot. From that end I can say that statistics on subjective events such as shootings and gunfights rarely lead to any conclusions.

Long story short a 22 will a end a fight as sure as a 357 if certian variables are right on both ends. A 357 will have a heck of a lot less margin of error though and I dont think you need statistics to at the very least circumstantially prove that.

Same thing with the 45.

They both kill just as well. That is the long and short it. Pick your poison and hit your target then worry about what the hardware will do.

[Gryffydd]

I think their work, while not the end all, is good for .357.
The fact that they got lucky and scored a round with good stopping power as having good stopping power doesn't make their work statistically sound as a whole. The bottom line is that their selection criteria and analysis basically result in a set of data that is simply not connected with the real world anymore.

The detractors seem to be primarily made up of little Facklers who automatically dismiss anything that might discredit the ".45 ball is magic" school of thought.
I haven't seen that to be the case.

The bottom line is that Sanow and Marshall's work is probably flawed. It's also the best thing we've got so far.
Flawed statistics are worse than useless. It's better to not have them than to have them when they don't reflect reality.

I've never gotten anywhere with the folks who think character assassination is a good substitute for research and critical thinking
I've never particularly understood the need for personal attacks in this context. There are so many problems with their data and methods it's superfluous and distracting. That said, just because someone also makes a personal attack doesn't mean everything else they have to say is wrong. Marshall's work really is a joke to statisticians.

[MCgunner]

For Gryffydd


http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701266.pdf

http://arxiv.org/ftp/physics/papers/0701/0701268.pdf

Marlin 45 carbine, your tests prove what I could have told you, .45 ACP 230 has more momentum than 125 .357 magnum. So what? Wounding is more complicated than simple momentum. Pins and pepper poppers aren't made of flesh.

[Vern Humphrey]

Did you notice the part about "Evan Marshall is a bad joke"? Do you even know what "character assassination" is?
Yeah -- it's what Marshall's defenders do whenever someone is critical of his "study."

[1911Tuner]

Having had much experience with both...I can offer tuppence worth.

In certain loadings, the .357 is a little more effective as an antipersonnel round than the .45 ACP. The price you pay is increased recoil and blast. For most of us...Mickulek and McGivern notwithstanding...the double-action revolver is a bit more demanding for defensive use compared to an autopistol...but that's not an insurmountable problem. Practice is the key.

The .357 is a much more versatile cartridge. It can be loaded down to powderpuff levels for casual practice...or up to something that mimics a small thermonuclear device, with the ability to penetrate a good-sized animal lengthwise...without having to alter the gun to accomodate.

It's easier to teach a newcomer to effectively and safely use a double-action revolver...and the ability to use downloaded ammo is a plus for the task.

Although I'm a proponent of the .45 Auto cartridge in general and the 1911 platform in particular...if I had to choose one over the other to do me for come what may until I separate from this mortal coil...it would be a medium framed, 4-inch, DA .357 revolver, hands down.

[Vern Humphrey]

In terms of versatility, the revolver/.357 is the winner, hands down. In terms of utility for a single purpose, self defense, the M1911 and the .45 ACP get my vote. I've carried both in combat (although only used the .357) and if called up today, I'd choose an M1911 if I had the choice.

[James T Thomas]

The "mythical" power reputation developed after the hunting rounds had been in existence for a long time. This was an outdoorsman development originaly.

For meat eating animals, I would go with something heavier than 180 grain projectiles. Regardless of their velocity.

The "myth" developed with the lighter weight, increased velocity of expanding ammunition.
The police admistration liked the PC that it still was a 38, and that if expansion occured, the round lost much of the penetration that the hunting rounds had. They approved, and "sold" it to the troops.

And now in the techno age, we have more reliable expanding ammo than in days past.

Caveat: Without expansion, remember you are shooting a 38. Higher velocity albeit.

[MCgunner]

I don't think expansion is necessary or always desirable in the .357 magnum, for hunting. I shoot a 165 grain as cast gas checked SWC for hunting. It does a fantastic job on hogs and deer to 50 yards from a revolver and 100 yards from a rifle.

That brings up rifles. The .45ACP gets little or nothing from the longer barrel of a rifle. The .357 turns into a rifle caliber in a rifle, at least to 100 yards.

In no way is the .45 ACP as capable as a hunting or outdoor round and the .357 is as capable as a self defense round. So, if I had to be without one or the other, I'd give up the .45ACP. I don't NEED to shoot momentum games like pins or pepper poppers. That's about all the .45 can do any better. I can carry the .357 and it's little brother, the .38 (and do) for self defense and I can use it to kill things in the field, in handgun or rifle. To me, my favorite centerfire handgun caliber has always been the .38/.357 and that hasn't changed.

[ArmedBear]

Hear, hear, MC!

One more thing to add -- unlike the .44 Mag, the .357 is compatible with a lower-powered round that actually exists.:D (I like the .44, but "you can shoot .44 Specials in it!" is about the silliest thing I've heard as a reason to buy one.)

Yesterday, I took my wife plinking so she could get practice with DA revolver shooting. I loaded up some really light .38 Specials so she could concentrate on the mechanics of DA trigger pull instead of sweating the recoil of heavy SD rounds.

She had a good time, improved her shooting, and I played around with a lever gun with those same rounds in it. Unadulterated fun, no recoil and cheap to reload. She shot it a few times when she was done with the revolvers, and is all set to do it some more!

The same gun will shoot hunting loads at respectable levergun velocities, as you said, no problem. Next day, it turns back into a fun toy and practice gun.:)

[wep45]

the .357 magnum (i.e. S&W 686) gets the job done period:cool:

[Poprivit]

I have a Colt Python, a Ruger Super Blackhawk, and a S&W 500 (357,44, 500) I've shot a LOT of hogs, some bear and been to Africa four times. (one Cape Buffalo, one elephant, one stink bull giraffe and a whole bag of plains game - photos available - I write for African Hunter Magazine).

For North American dangerous game smaller than Brown Bear, use the .44. It won't bust your wrist, even with 300-gr bullets. Get used to it - shoot it a bunch, 250-350 rounds for starters. For Brown Bear,I shoot Ballistic Supply 600-gr. hardened lead bullets in my S&W 500 Mag. I took the giraffe with the 500; 18'6" tall, 2400 lb. +or-.

Hogs go down easy with proper bullet placement, so a 357 or 44 is fine. If you need to shoot through the shoulder plate, go with the 44. I bounced a 300 Win Magnum 180-gr. off a boar's skull on a frontal shot. Bad angle, the bullet just spun off.

[Dogbite]

As an aside -


Hogs can and do and will eat people...if not being predatory about it, they will none-the-less gladly eat freshly dead people, or, Hogs can kill a person in peak of ire, and then eat them as an incidental.


Many a 'body' has been disappeared by merely being set for the Hogs to get to...and nothing would be left by day two, but Hog-poop...and maybe part of a Shoe.


This used to be well understood by Farmers and old-time Organized Crime people.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of my relatives fell down in a hog pen, and a large hog attacked her, biting her fiercely on the hand. It was an ugly wound.

[Reid73]

What I am wondering is what is the cause of the .357 magnum's mythic status of uber-stopping power? I suspect it comes from the hype that emerged in the late 30s and during the War. There were quite a few articles back then in the popular magazines, relating stories of how the mighty .357 stopped a Grizzly in its tracks, went right through 12 Japanese soldiers, etc.

Are both grossly over-rated (I mean c'mon, we are talking pistols here)? Yes.

[wvshooter]

A quick look at reloading data shows quite a few 357 work ups in the 1300 to 1500 fps range. Some even reach 1800 fps. 1800 is more than twice the velocity of the typical 45acp. round. It makes a difference with all larger animals but especially the animals you mention.

[meef]

Dogbite:One of my relatives fell down in a hog pen, and a large hog attacked her, biting her fiercely on the hand. It was an ugly wound.:scrutiny:

Well then, she could join THR and her user name could be Hogbite.





:D

[ijosef]

I saw a similar nightmare story about the .357 on the ODMP.

Officer on a traffic stop was shot by a perp with a .22 derringer. First round hit the officer square in the vest and was stopped without a problem. Officer fired five rounds of .357 at the perp and hit him in the leg and three times in the torso, then retreated to his vehicle to call for backup.

Perp, who is still active, fires his last .22, which goes into the officer's armpit and penetrates his heart, killing him nearly instantly.

Perp survives the multiple .357 hits.
I saw that video in one of my training classes for work. The entire thing was captured on the dashboard cam of the patrol car. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the fat slob of a perpetrator was using a .25 auto (like a Raven or Lorcin saturday night special), although that's not really the point. I don't think anyone is going to argue that a .357 magnum isn't a better fight stopper than a .22LR or a .25ACP. This story is just proof that all firearms, regardless of size/caliber/power, can easily kill, and that users need to respect how dangerous they can be.

All other things being equal, one is more likely to survive a hit with a .25ACP than a .357magnum, but both can kill you equally dead.

[ArmedBear]

Yeah, the moral of the story is that any gun can kill you, so don't get shot.

It's got little to do with relative effectiveness of different rounds, on average.

[MR.G]

Years ago, when I was young, we would shoot our handguns in some remote fields. Our targets were old vehicles, steel drums, logs, and anything else that looked like a good target. I remember being able to dig .45 bullets out of logs with my knife. It would have taken a chain saw to find the .357 rounds.380 rounds would bounce off steel drums and some doors, where the .357 would blow right through them. Probably doesn't mean that much in stopping power, but the .357 penrtrated everything better.

[OrangePwrx9]

The .357 is a reloaders dream and what I cut my reloading teeth on 30 years ago. Load it up as a .38 Special lead wadcutter target round over a few grains of Bullseye or a full SAAMI spec load with jacketed HP over as much H110 as you can stuff in the case....not to mention everything in between with dozens of powders and bullets. It's possible (even easy) to work up light target loads that shoot to the same POA as the full power loads.

If the gun you're buying is one you're going to shoot, as opposed to simply parking it in the nightstand, the .357 can be your ticket to a wide variety of shooting fun. On top of this, a good .357 will, out of the box, deliver accuracy that the 1911 platform will have to work very hard to equal.
Bob

[Marvin KNox]

I prefer a revolver over an auto for a bunch of reasons. I carry the .357 because I can get more rounds in a slimmer lighter revolver package for carry purposes.

I know that I could pack as many rounds in a .45 revolver. But it would be (for me at least) too large for carry in the style I prefer.

I carry a slightly reduced speed load (DPX 125gr.) because it is more manageable and it penetrates exactly the depth I want with a great mushroom. I believe that the paper energy of the hot loads and attendent temporary wound channels mean next to nothing once you have a round that will do the job consistently to 12" or so.

Getting to what the thread is really about, I believe that the wonderful reputation of the super hot .357's was earned because they were being compared to other slower calibers in the days of older style bullets. Those days are gone IMO.

With modern bullets, one can get the proper depth and mushroom by picking a round tailored to your particular speed based on recoil manageability etc. - be it in .45 or .357 magnum. If you fail to pick a good projectile for your needs, it will fail to perform as desired and perhaps be inadequate. That is true whether we are talking about slow .45s or fast .45s. That is true whether we are talking about slow .357's or fast .357's (be they magnum or not).

That being the case (IMO) I would much prefer the nicely expanded .45 wound chanel over the nicely expanded .357 caliber wound chanel (both to adequate depth of course). That's not to say that both are not good rounds for self defense.

But because of the before mentioned reasons (recoil, number of rounds, light weight and small size in a carry revolver etc.) I go with the .357 magnum. IMO the .45 is the better self defense round if there are no such consideration necessary.(or if auto vs. revolver isn't a factor).

Fatter permenent wound chanel to a little more than adequate depth is always superior to a narrower wound chanel (regardless of temporary wound chanels or "paper" energy).

I also believe that hoping for "one shot stops" is wishful thinking and not realistic. Nor do I believe that anyone ever shot with assorted handguns, autopsied and cataloged the results on hundreds of goats in any country anywhere in the world. Utter nonsense IMO.

[SHusky57]

As an aside -


Hogs can and do and will eat people...if not being predatory about it, they will none-the-less gladly eat freshly dead people, or, Hogs can kill a person in peak of ire, and then eat them as an incidental.


Many a 'body' has been disappeared by merely being set for the Hogs to get to...and nothing would be left by day two, but Hog-poop...and maybe part of a Shoe.


This used to be well understood by Farmers and old-time Organized Crime people.

Went to a gunshop the other day and will never go back. I won't go on about how rude the salesperson was (my friend was looking for a deer rifle), and I wanted some 30-30 and handgun ammo. He asked me what I wanted in handgun ammo and I told him wilderness protection ammo.... cougars, mountain lions, bears, pigs and he looked at me like I was retarded. We don't have bears in Oklahoma, but I just wanted some to have some. Just like how the gun shop I was at sells AR-15s and Barrett 50 cals to people who want them but in reality probably will never use them to defeat an army of invading communists....

Anyway, after telling me pigs don't attack people (which is the opposite of what I have heard from a lot of hog hunters.... maybe he thought I was talking about Winnie-the-Pooh piglet and not a 350 lbs boar).... he recommened some 125 gr hollow points for my 357 magnum. From everything I've read, Softpoint/hard-cast lead is the way to go, and probably 158 or 180 grain for 357 magnum. I was like, "will these even penetrate far enough to stop a hog?" and he kind of got irritated, well, more than he already was. Judging from his gut, I guess he doesn't hike a lot but probably just sits in a treestand all season eating beef jerky.

He just continued to be rude and treated me like an idiot for wanting some good "hiking ammo".... and I don't really have the funds for a 44 mag or 500 S&W right now if I already have a gun that can do the job with the right ammo, it's more realistic for me to put my money into ammo. . I ended up leaving the store. Now I know why they are the only gunshop with fully stocked ammo shelves in the state.

So anyways, a few questions.
Between 45 ACP and 357 Magnum, which is the better for 4 legged critters? What is the best load-out for 4 legged critters? I am kind of wanting to order some buffalo bore 180 gr I think it was 357 magnum for wilderness protection.... and maybe Speer 125 gr 38 +p for home protection (it's what I used in my SW 442).

Is it possible to CCW a service 4" revolver.... or should I just stick with my J-frame?

I'm wanting one more gun.... looked at ARs, but they don't "do it" for me. Thinking about a mossberg shotgun, but it still doesn't "do it" for me. When I see a GP100 or a SW629PD... I start to get excited. But before I drop a lot of money on a revolver, I want to make sure 357 is "enough gun" for angry 4 legged critters.

(I have a 4" 357 I inherited, but I wouldn't mind getting a 6" 357 or maybe a 4" 44 mag or something.... I really want a good wilderness protection handgun. I know a shotgun is better, but it's very hard to be inconspicuous carrying a 12 gauge around, not to mention they are heavy and more likely to get left behind. Better to always be within arm's reach than sitting in the truck).

[.38 Special]

IMO the Buffalo Bore 180 is the best .357 load for the purposes you are considering.

I've never heard of a wild boar attacking an adult unprovoked in the U.S., but what I haven't heard of is a lot. I sure as hell have heard of adults attacking adults unprovoked in the U.S., and I figure the Buffalo Bore load would manage that as well.

I would happily use hot loaded .45 Auto Rim with the heaviest cast bullet it can manage, as a "hiking load". I would not be as happy with the typical defensive .45 Auto loads in the same role. check out the ".45 Auto/bear attack" thread for an example of why, not that I think any handgun is ideal in that particular situation...

[sw282]

I met an old man who gave first hand knowledge of penetration of a handgun and proved beyond a doubt that velocity has alot to do with penetration. He came into the gunshop the other day with a 30Mauser C96. He said he had gotten it in Germany during WWll. Talking we made mention of the 45 and its mystical death ray performance. He said it was a good round but his Mauser was superior in some areas. He kinda winked and grinned and went on to say the little Mauser round could penetrate both sides of a German helmet with the head in it. A45 could not do that:what:

[Nematocyst]

This is NOT, I repeat, NOT intended to be a .357 mag vs 45 acp thread.The best laid schemes o' mice an' men.

I find myself mostly carrying a S&W 442 in these hot summer months,
and I'm thinking about putting a .357 big brother in the nightstand.642 in my OWB; mod 65 on my night stand.

Admittedly, the 65 is not the finest .357m specimen.
It won't necessarily eat a steady diet of hot rnds,
yet it does fine with cooler ones.

I'll replace it eventually with an L-frame, maybe a 627 (http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=67983&tabselected=tech&isFirearm=Y&parent_category_rn=).

Looking at Blackhawks, also.

But I understand the draw.

Just something about a wheel in .357m.

[Lawnman380]

I own both.....357 hands down my favorite....great reading

[elktrout]

Years ago, in my law enforcement days, the FBI police reports of field shootings across the nation were the best source for reliable information about shootings involving the cops. The .357 quickly established itself as the best one shot stopper when the various 125 grain hollow points were used. You must remember, though, that the average range of a police fire fight (at that time, and likely still) was less than 10 feet - almost point blank. The soft, exposed lead hollow points expanded violently at that range when fired from a .357 full load.

Obviously, all kinds of numeric data have been and continue to be offered that support one versus the other. If you want to substantiate your opinion, you can find enough data of some type to do so.

I carried and loved my .357 (a 4 inch Colt Trooper). I also loved my Colt Commander 45acp, although my department would not let me carry it.

One important factor in the debate that warrants careful consideration is that of bullet expansion. If, for some reason, the .357 bullets do not expand, they exponentially lose their stopping power. Some hollow points, depending on target resistance, collapse on impact or clog with clothing fragments and simply plow through the target.

It really boils down to what you personally have confidence will do the job. The debate will continue for decades.

[sniper5]

Regarding pigs, there are some reported incidents of pigs chasing picnickers onto picnic tables at Henry Coe park in the Bay Area and keeping them there until rangers got there to scare them away. Now how much of this was provoked by the tourists via feeding or trying to infringe on territory and how much is real aggression vs. imaginary aggression in the minds of the tourists I don't know.

[SHusky57]

Regarding pigs, there are some reported incidents of pigs chasing picnickers onto picnic tables at Henry Coe park in the Bay Area and keeping them there until rangers got there to scare them away. Now how much of this was provoked by the tourists via feeding or trying to infringe on territory and how much is real aggression vs. imaginary aggression in the minds of the tourists I don't know.

Is stomping around brush with a 30-30 going to be perceived by pigs as aggressive?

and I'm guessing 125 gr HP is the way to go in 357 for personal protection.... any reason to go with the heavier stuff (158 gr)? If goblins are lightly armored (like thick leather coats) is the 125 or 158 gr going to be a better chocie?

I'll get the buffalo bore for critters.

As for the pistol itself, is GP100 6" a good way to go? What are the better 6-shot Smith and Wesson models out there (I don't know much about them). Are those fiber optic front sight thingies on some of the S&Ws durable?

[Ben Shepherd]

SHusky57- see your PM's.

[Marvin KNox]

sw 282

:)

Regarding the smaller bore Mauser rifle vs. the .45 pistol - it's a matter of apples and oranges of course.

If shooting through chunks of metal and exiting the other side is your goal, the Mauser may, indeed, be a better choice than the .45.

Lots of variables here, though. A slow .45 solid is likely to do a better job at that task than a fast hollow point Mauser bullet. The reverse is also true.

But shooting through helmets isn't what most people want in a self defense round is it? A bullet that can do that is not a good self defense bullet is it?

It does bring up the point of penetration vs. expansion being being more important with the shooting of certain animals though. A mister Bell, a famous English hunter of elephant from yesteryear, used a 7mm Mauser. He hunted elephant before they, by and large, because very skiddish in the presence of men. He usually shot them from up close and at a perfect angle and used solids to be sure he reached the vitals from that angle. It did the job on hundreds of elephants for sure. But it certainly never stopped a charging elephant dead in it's tracks.

Nor would it likely do so on a charging man for our own self defense purposes. Probably not on a charging hog either.

[SaxonPig]

It always comes down a matter of personal preference. I love my 1911s and carried them for years. I have also relied on revolvers without hesitation. Now I carry a 14 shot 9mm. Makes me feel better.

There is no magic bullet. Men have died from a single 22 hit while others fight on after absorbing numerous rifle bullets. I'm sure some combat vet somewhere has a great story about a guy who required a second burst of 50 caliber fire to put him down. Every situation is different and so is every person. You can't compare humans to deer or pigs or other animals as the lesser animals don't think about being shot, they react solely on instinct so they won't sit down and wait for help like a human might.

This argument will never be settled. Choose your weapon and let it go.

[MCgunner]

Regarding pigs, there are some reported incidents of pigs chasing picnickers onto picnic tables at Henry Coe park in the Bay Area and keeping them there until rangers got there to scare them away. Now how much of this was provoked by the tourists via feeding or trying to infringe on territory and how much is real aggression vs. imaginary aggression in the minds of the tourists I don't know.

In Frisco? Yeah, like those hippies weren't stoned on acid or anything. :rolleyes:

ROFLMAO!

Pigs don't eat people. I don't know if they eat hippies or not.:D

In the words of Eric Cartman....all they do is smoke dope and smell bad.....:D

[Gryffydd]

Pigs don't eat...
It doesn't matter how this sentence ends...it will always be wrong :D

[goon]

I don't have a 6" GP-100 - went with the 4" stainless verstion instead.
It's stout enough to hold up the rear end of a vintage Ford pick-up and built like an anvil. I had trouble with the sights on mine when I got it and Ruger worked it over for me to repair the issue. They also slicked the action up for free, presumably as an apology for the inconvenience. They are totally forgiven!

Anyhow, it's a great, solid gun. I'd think the 6" would be better for dedicated outdoor carry. It will add some extra velocity and with solids, that means just a little more penetration. I've never shot a 6" GP-100 but I did own a 6" S&W Model 28. IIRC, the extra barrel did make it just a little easier to shoot well. Also, FWIW, the GP-100 kind of feels a little like an N-frame to me - just a little too large for its intended use (in kind of a comforting way) and utterly solid.
I went with the 4" in mine because it makes it just a little better as an "all around" handgun that can also do CCW in some circumstances.
But based on my experience with Ruger, you're not likely to be disappointed either way.
Also, I love older S&W's but the newer ones all have those freakisly stupid locks built into them - one more part that can fail and require a trip to the factory (or to the emergency room or morgue if you're unlucky). No thanks. I'll stick with point-and-click Rugers.

[ijosef]

The moral of this thread is that everyone should own both a pistol in .45ACP and a wheelgun in .357 magnum.

[strangelittleman]

Quote:
I saw a similar nightmare story about the .357 on the ODMP.

Officer on a traffic stop was shot by a perp with a .22 derringer. First round hit the officer square in the vest and was stopped without a problem. Officer fired five rounds of .357 at the perp and hit him in the leg and three times in the torso, then retreated to his vehicle to call for backup.

Perp, who is still active, fires his last .22, which goes into the officer's armpit and penetrates his heart, killing him nearly instantly.

Perp survives the multiple .357 hits.

I saw that video in one of my training classes for work. The entire thing was captured on the dashboard cam of the patrol car. If I'm not mistaken, I believe the fat slob of a perpetrator was using a .25 auto (like a Raven or Lorcin saturday night special), although that's not really the point. I don't think anyone is going to argue that a .357 magnum isn't a better fight stopper than a .22LR or a .25ACP. This story is just proof that all firearms, regardless of size/caliber/power, can easily kill, and that users need to respect how dangerous they can be.

All other things being equal, one is more likely to survive a hit with a .25ACP than a .357magnum, but both can kill you equally dead.

If this dash board footage is of the S.C. Trooper death back in the early 90's or so, The fat bad guy had a .22mag mini-revolver and while the Trooper was carrying a S&W M65 .357 mag, it was loaded with Winchester .38spl+p 125gr SJHP. I believe it was this incident and another near Greenville/Spartanburg that caused the SCHP & SLED to switch from .38spl+p to the .40 S&W Glock 22 in the early 90's.
The loading of K-frame S&Ws with .38spl+p ammo, by LEAs was common place in the 80's-90's, my dept did the same in our M65s until we switched to .40S&W autopistols.

[oak1971]

My 4 inch ruger security six will numb my hand with factory 158 grain defensive loads. I run 38 +p most of the time. Funny thing is my 44 mag guns feel tame by comparison.

[Marvin KNox]

I agree!

We all need at least one .45 ACP and one .357 magnum.