.22 LR @ 100 Yds. - - One Hole Obsession


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LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 04:05 PM
If you can tell me how you shoot tighter groups that what I am shooting, I would certainly be happy to listen to your advice.

I sure would like to see more posted on .22 LR at 100 Yds. When I am not busy getting ready for a high power match, I am obsessed with trying to shoot a single hole group at a hundred yards with my favorite .22 LR. I have read some grandiose claims of accuracy with a 22 LR at 200 and even 250 yards. It’s not that I don’t believe the claims, It’s just I have never witnessed it in almost 48 years.

I am posting my two targets that I fired this morning (7/15/09) for your viewing. The half-inch group (3X) is not typical of what I normally shoot, but the 1” group (2X) is a bit larger than what I normally shoot. I know there are some shooters out there that can consistently shoot a half inch and smaller groups, but I am not one of them. I sure could use some pointers. BTW, this is bench rest shooting with only a front rest.

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I add this below the dotted line so that you (the reader) will not have to read all of my posts below to understand what type of rifle and ammo I used. Thanks for you patients.


Sorry! I did not originally post what type of rifle I was shooting. It is a simple custom rifle if you want to call it that. The receiver is a Ruger 77/22, with a 21” . 920 dia Lilja barrel, and an after-market 2# trigger. The Stock is a Volqurtsen.

The groups shown in the .pdf files were shot with Lapua X-Act, however I do get good groups with the Lapua Master L. I have tried about 40 types of ammo in this rifle and the Lapua does the best. The best group I have been able to print with inexpensive ammo, is the Agula (spelling??) Super Extra.

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Vern Humphrey
July 15, 2009, 04:12 PM
You don't say what rifle or ammo you are using.

Good bench shooting is a combination of the rifle, the ammo, and the shooter's skill and technique. Using a rear bag, and controlling elevation may shrink groups a bit. Similarly, better wind doping, or shooting only in dead calms may help. Finally, experiement with different brands of ammo.

Good luck.

22-rimfire
July 15, 2009, 04:30 PM
It is a good obsession. I don't shoot 22's at 100 yds other than to plink a clay pigeon or two from time to time. And yes, I usually hit them first try, but a clay pigeon precision is not 0.5" groups. What ammo and rifle are you using?

kludge
July 15, 2009, 04:39 PM
I've never been able to shoot a <1" group at 100 yards with a .22 but I'm not willing to pay $7-$12 for a box of .22 ammo either.

The best I can usually do is 1.2-1.3". My best group at 50 yards was a 3 shot clover leaf while shooting my sighters for a match that was ~0.25". 0.35" to 0.50" is the norm on a good day (no breeze or mirage).

LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 05:21 PM
Sorry! I did not post what type of rifle I was shooting. It is a simple custom rifle if you want to call it that. The receiver is a Ruger 77/22, with a 21” . 920 dia Lilja barrel, and an after-market 2# trigger. The Stock is a Volqurtsen.

The groups shown in the .pdf files were shot with Lapua X-Act, however I do get good groups with the Lapua Master L. I have tried about 40 types of ammo in this rifle and the Lapua does the best. The best group I have been able to print with inexpensive ammo, is the Agula (spelling??) Super Extra.

Vern Humphrey
July 15, 2009, 05:24 PM
My Kimber M82 came with a sample group that measured about .3" at 100 yards -- a true one-hole group. However, this was shot by a man who did nothing but shoot groups all day, using a pipe range.

LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 05:42 PM
Vern,

I can't say I shoot all day but maybe that is what I need to do to achieve a one hole groups. I have not been able to shoot this rifle as much as I would have liked to this year but I am going to try to shoot it at least twice a week. One hole groups under .5" are easy to shoot at 50 yards but are evasive at anything greater than 80 yards (for me.) Last year I'll bet I put 1500 round through this rifle experimenting with it and maybe it just won’t do any better….. Maybe I just can’t do any better.. Normally it’s the operator…

Vern Humphrey
July 15, 2009, 05:44 PM
It could well be the operator -- we all have a ceiling somewhere. But I begin to think having a pipe range has a lot do do with it.

doc2rn
July 15, 2009, 05:47 PM
At least yours is still a rifle some of the ones people use to make those groups dont even resemble a rifle. I love the 77/22 MKII also mine is .22wmr

LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 05:55 PM
Vern,

I'll keep trying. If I don't keep trying, I am not going to have any fun.

I am going to try a rear bag as you have suggested and I'll look for one of those calm days. Today when I shot the two targets that I posted with this thread, I did have a slight cross wind of a knot or two.

---------------------------------------------------------
C.F.S. = Can't fix stupid (Ron White)

husbandofaromanian
July 15, 2009, 06:03 PM
I am one of those people you speak of making grandiose claims about shooting 22lr @ long range. I am not an accurate shooter. I have a Contender G2 Pistol (10.5" barrel) with a silencer that I shoot off of a tripod.

At 100 yards my groups are about an inch and a half. However, I can ring my 11" gong at 300 yards 9 times out of 10 (in windless conditions) all day long.

JMusic
July 15, 2009, 06:04 PM
I'm having the same problem with a 10-22 Mach two I converted. Sand bag it up good Assure no movement and sart trying different ammo. Give Eley a try and stay standard velocity. You should allready know about bedding and so forth but try different torques on your stock screws. You may be surprised of the difference,


Jim

mm1ut1
July 15, 2009, 07:26 PM
Stock CZ American and CMP Aguilla ammo at 100 yards. A trigger job would shrink the group easily by half. Shot off sandbag under ideal conditions.
http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q120/uncle_joe1956/800.jpg

LaserSpot
July 15, 2009, 07:27 PM
LRaccuracy,
What type of scope do you have and how is it mounted?

Are most of your groups round, or do you see "stringing"?
I have a Volquartsen barrel that's free floated; the 4-14x50 Leupold LRT is on a Volquartsen cantilever mount. It's a very stable setup, I don't know if Lilja barrels are tapped for this type of mount.

I'm getting about the same accuracy, but it's a 10/22, not a 77/22

KenWP
July 15, 2009, 07:31 PM
I sighted in my 10-22 for a 100 yards just to say I could. Most I did to it was use a good 3-9x scope and I replaced the pin in the back of the frame with one of those plastic ones or what ever its made of. Seems to work for me and the gophers I shoot at. There has to be people out there that can shoot the dots of the eyes.

kludge
July 15, 2009, 08:58 PM
I have tried about 40 types of ammo in this rifle and the Lapua does the best.

At the last 50/50 benchrest match I shot in, a buddy of mine used Lapua to shoot a 240-8X out of a possible 250.

He used an Anshutz with a trigger measured in ounces.

I'm using Aguila Rifle Match right now (it was $30/brick) but I think the Federal Champion Target ($13/brick two summers ago, havn't seen ANY since then) was a little better.

I shoot a Savage Mark II BV with a 3# Accutrigger, and it's way too heavy a trigger for benchrest shooting.

Bill B.
July 15, 2009, 10:28 PM
I am posting my two targets that I fired this morning (7/15/09) for your viewing. The half-inch group (3X) is not typical of what I normally shoot

That's about as good as it gets for me regardless of the rifle & ammo combo. Maybe somewhere where they have no wind and heat waves.

LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 10:31 PM
LaserSpot,

I have a pretty cheap scope on the rig. It is a BSA Platinum 6-24X44 and It's mounted directly to the top of the receiver with high steel rings. I have ordered a Leupold 6-24X50which I should have next week. My groups are generally 3 or 4 in a tight group (kind of round) and I normally drop one or two low. Occasionally I will throw one out to the right or left and I always wonder what happened? When I miss the X ring it is normally low. Exactly like the first .pdf file I posted.

My breathing and trigger squeeze looks good and I have examined my technique in high speed video for evaluation. I have other .22 LR rifles built up for shooting at 100 yds. but with iron sights. I normally do the same scenario. Three or four in, one or two out.

I'll never be national match material, but I know I can put all five in the X ring on a consistent basis, I just don't know what I am doing wrong.

I am going to try rear sand bags for stability to analyze the problem further.

LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 10:33 PM
Kludge,

I have been thinking of lightening up my trigger a bit... Maybe 1.5 lbs or just a little less. Right now it seems okay but a little lighter couldn't hurt.

LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 10:35 PM
KenWP,

I have never tried a 10/22 for accuracy, but I know it can be done. I have read on the Internet in so many articles that you can achieve the same accuracy as a bolt gun with them. That may be my next summer challenge.

LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 10:37 PM
mm1ut1,

Great target.. One of my friends shoots a CZ American and shoots about the same groups. You have to admit the CZ shoots great. I have a CZ American in .221 Fireball and it will shoot sub MOA.

LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 10:41 PM
Husbandofaromanian...

The claims I am hearing are a bit wild. How about an inch group with a .22 LR at 250 yards... Hmmmmm! Do I believe it? A better question is, do you believe it?

Now you know what I mean by a grandiose claim. Later... T.

LRaccuracy
July 15, 2009, 10:45 PM
Believe me when I say I am going to try many of the things you ladies and gentlemen are suggesting. Even if I have already tried them. Maybe I will find the right combination.

I always keep in mind that the groups that I am getting is my personal best but I will not give up striving for consistent smaller groups. If I did I guess I would be giving up shooting, and I don't want to do that.

I will try some Eley again and maybe just maybe I need a pipe range to avoid the thermals and wind variations... Who knows? But I will keep you posted...

kludge
July 15, 2009, 11:33 PM
It is a BSA Platinum 6-24X44

That's the scope I use, with the 1/8 MOA target dot. The dot just fits inside the 10 ring of the 50/50 target. I shoot MOA or less with rig that cost me <$300. My best score so far is a 233-5X.

crazy-mp
July 16, 2009, 01:26 AM
using a pipe range

Unless you have a day where these is no wind at all, you will never know for sure if there was a little drift.

How fast are you taking your shots? You might try to wait between shots a little longer.

Did you fire the gun once as a "fouling" shot-assuming you cleaned the gun after your last shot? I have a 10/22 that will shoot about 2 inches high on the first shot at 50 yards then the scope is on.

Finally it could be the operator and choice of equipment (no offense) I built a custom 10/22 the same time my dad did. I can lay mine on top of each other at 25 yards, but his I cant cover with a half dollar the group from his gun, but he can make a 6 shot group look like a .45 hit it.

Calibre44
July 16, 2009, 04:16 AM
Iíve shot 3 inch groups with this Ďold timerí (thatís the gun by the way) at 200 yards with .22LR RWS Match ammo but Iíve known people do a lot better than me with the same rifle. Guess itís all down to the right weather conditions, ammo, rifle, scope etc and of course Ö the shooter.
http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg230/woodsy_2008/miscpictsplusbisleysep06009.jpg

LRaccuracy
July 16, 2009, 09:53 AM
Vern Humphrey

I am using Lapua X-Act and Lapua Master L. My understanding is that Lapua does not make Master L any longer. I purchased a good supply when I found it shoot well all of my competition .22's.



Calibr44

Good looking rig. I can believe a three inch group at 200 yards and even a little better. But I still am having trouble digesting a one half inch group at 250 yards which some have claimed. Not saying it is impossible, just not probable.

Just One Shot
July 16, 2009, 09:57 AM
You will need ideal conditions to one hole with a .22 @ 100 yds.

To do it consistantly you would have to do it indoors to remove the many variables involved, wind etc.

That's provided your rifle and ammo are up to the task.

LRaccuracy
July 16, 2009, 10:15 AM
crazy-mp
I am definitely taking my time between shots. Breathing and trigger squeeze are still the basics of shooting. I don't believe fouling is a problem but I never examined this aspect. I have been going on the premise that since I put 2 or three in the X ring and one or two just outside of it that fouling is not the problem. Anyway in a match, I don't think they will let me stop and clean my bore. :)

Believe me no offense taken. I am pretty thick skinned, and yes it can be the operator. You guys are helping me explore all the possibilities.

Hey, get this one and it seemed to work. I read an article and several posts that said if you treat your bullets with Napier pellet lube you would improve your accuracy. It did not help the accuracy of Lapua and Eley, and it did not improve the accuracy of high-speed .22 LR, but it did improve the accuracy of standard and sub-sonic inexpensive ammo. I used a small 1.5" diameter cap filled with water about half full and I sprayed the Napier pellet lube onto the water. Then I dipped the bullet of the .22 LR cartridge into the water with the pellet lube floating on top of the water. It coated the bullet with lube. Actually it improved the accuracy of the cheaper brands of standard and sub-sonic ammo. At 50 yards this works but not good enough for 100 yards.

JMusic
July 16, 2009, 10:18 AM
I converted my 10-22 varmitter to 17mach2 as I said before. I got consistant quarter size groups when it was a 22 by trigger work (1.5) with bags. beddiing, and using a lock tite ( green) mounting barrel to receiver. I shot quarter size groups ( 25cent size) with several types of ammo. best was eley hp's. High velosity, rws subs, and mini mags hv22's. I have a 1 lb trigger on it now with the conversion to 17 but I'm not there yet.



Jim

LRaccuracy
July 16, 2009, 10:20 AM
Just One Shot,

The next home I build will have an underground 200 yard range. I am sure my wife will understand. If she doesn't, I'll find a new YOUNGER wife. :)

BHP FAN
July 16, 2009, 10:23 AM
one hole at a hunnert yards is EASY. Just shoot once...

LRaccuracy
July 16, 2009, 10:25 AM
J-Music,

I never had good luck with HV's.

husbandofaromanian
July 16, 2009, 11:20 AM
Husbandofaromanian...

The claims I am hearing are a bit wild. How about an inch group with a .22 LR at 250 yards... Hmmmmm! Do I believe it? A better question is, do you believe it?

Now you know what I mean by a grandiose claim. Later... T.

Please be accurate with my bragging. I said i can shoot a group of an inch AND a half at 100 yards. THAT'S 1.5MOA.

I use a Kestrel wind/atmosphere meter & a pda.

At 300 yards my Eley tenex bullet is dropping 140.5 inches.

Because I am able to accuratly calculate drop, I can ring my 11in gong @ 300 yards, 9 out of 10 times ALL DAY LONG (windless conditions)

Anyone who would like to visit Music City and head out to my favorite 300 yard range for a day of fun. Come on, I will demonstrate.

Just One Shot
July 16, 2009, 02:39 PM
The next home I build will have an underground 200 yard range. I am sure my wife will understand. If she doesn't, I'll find a new YOUNGER wife.
:D

Let us know when it's completed. I'm sure we have a few people on here that would love to help you break it in!

(I'm referring to the range not the new wife. :neener: )

:D

Owen
July 16, 2009, 03:03 PM
LR,

have you found benchrest.com yet? this is pretty much wha they do....

HGUNHNTR
July 16, 2009, 03:25 PM
I have understood they shoot those groups at 50 yards for a rimfire, and 100 for centerfire.

Maybe this would explain your .6" average at 100yds.

Just a thought.

22-rimfire
July 16, 2009, 07:21 PM
Steve Boelter (Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammunition) shoots a lot at 100 yds as I understand it. He posts over at RimfireCentral a fair amount. Check the forum out if you have not already. It is THE rimfire forum.

Anyone who would like to visit Music City and head out to my favorite 300 yard range for a day of fun. Come on, I will demonstrate.

Husband... Where do you shoot over in Nashville area that has a 300 yd rifle range?

crazy-mp
July 16, 2009, 11:47 PM
Anyway in a match, I don't think they will let me stop and clean my bore.

Only one way to find out!!! :D

husbandofaromanian
July 17, 2009, 10:29 AM
A private range in Manchester. I like to go at sunrise when no one is there so I can enjoy not wearing hearing protection using my silencer. I'm planning to go out there this Saturday morning (tomorrow) with a co-worker to test some ammo if you would like to join us. We will get there about 6 am.

Pm me if you would like to join us.

LRaccuracy
July 17, 2009, 12:25 PM
Okay.... just fired a match this morning using the equipment that I have described above. We fire 2 targets for record and we fire a sighter target with 10 rounds if we want to. I fired all 4 targets with 10 rounds each only dropping 1 point. I did not count how many X's I had. ... Thanks! Your suggestions are helping.... I Still don't have all rounds in the same hole however.

LRaccuracy
July 17, 2009, 02:06 PM
Husbandofaromanian

Hmmmm.... I did not say I disbelieved your claim, I said I don't know if I believed the gentleman that said he was getting 1" groups at 250 yards. That claim is not in this post. Sorry if you misunderstood my post.

LRaccuracy
July 17, 2009, 03:31 PM
Just One Shot,

I am sure there would be a few that would like to help me break in both. But I don't plan on trading this wife in for a new one anytime soon. She is pretty good. I get to buy what I want and she gets to buy what she wants.

As far as the 200 yd. indoor range? I don't think that would be practical for me. But I do plan on a 110 yd underground range.

22-rimfire
July 17, 2009, 07:03 PM
Thanks Husbandofaromanian for the info. Pretty good run from Nashville. I suspect we are about the same distance. I will pass for now. I'd probably embarass myself. :)

husbandofaromanian
July 18, 2009, 10:50 AM
I just left the range about an hour ago. I was testing Lapua Pistol King for speed and velocity consistancy. I was very dissapointed. Speeds ranged fromt 1020 fps to 1068fps. I get about that spread with dirt cheap Federal 714. How it was giving me clover leafs at 50 yards that I wasn't getting even with Eley Tenex.

I've got to argue the cost issue. Eley Tenex is about 35 cent per shot. Other than Lapua's new stuff, this makes it about the most expensive out there.

When I drive to Outdoor World and buy Remington .223 fmj 55-grain @ 50 cents per round, I am buying pretty close to the cheapest center fire ammunition available (excluding corrosive military surplus).

However, for 35 cents per round, I can shoot Eley Tenex that has won more gold medals than any other 22lr round.

I consider 35 cents per round for the BEST 22lr ammunition DIRT CHEAP!!!

Now I do have over 10k rounds of Federal 714 that cost me 4 cents per round for most plinking. But for shooting past 200 yards, I shoot the best.

gunnie
July 18, 2009, 03:44 PM
.22 lr ammo is very sensitive to rim thickness. when you want the last n'th degree of accuracy, get a rim thickness gauge...

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/sept96rimthickness.html

gunnie

LRaccuracy
July 18, 2009, 08:30 PM
Walter,
I am sure that there are plenty out of the box rifles out there that will do some amazing thing because my Savage made a believer out of me.

Also I have a Mossburg 44 us(d)'s that will shoot an inch and a half group consistently with Federal (white box) ammo. It never wants to do any better than that so I had to move on.


gunnie,

I did read the article and it's worth a try. I am also going to start weighing my rounds and sorting by weight. I understand many of the top shooter do it.

AKElroy
July 19, 2009, 10:03 PM
I have a Marlin 7000 T with a 4X14 AO Bushnell scope. This was an innexpensive rig, but it really does a number at 50yds with match ammo. With Ely Tenex, it will cloverleaf 10 rnds from sandbags, basically a quarter sized group. I drew a few onlookers @ the range once, & the owner even called a cease fire to retrieve the target when I was done.

I have never tried it @ 100 yds; I guess I am a little worried about getting addicted to the pursuit & having to spend massively to feed it!

LRaccuracy
July 19, 2009, 10:06 PM
I was never a big fan of Savage, but the past 5 to 7 years has really changed my mind.

I may have been given a bad impression back in the 60's from a bad Savage rifle (all manufacturers make them) that I owned and then after that I thought they were just not up to par.

I now have a Savage .17 rim fire, and a .223 and a .308 Savage that are excellent shooters. Actually they shoot just as good as my high dollar rifles.

One of my friends just built 4 tight neck Ackley Improved 22-250's. The cost was outrageous, but they shoot same hole and I do mean same hole at 100 yards. He held the tolerances in "tenths" (.0000"), I'll guess and say 3 to 5 thousandths. Actually beautiful work and beautiful rifles. He asked me if I wanted one but I declined. I have so much going on now that it would just be another gun I never get to shoot.

Anyway. I get to talk about shooting more than I actually get to do it.

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