M-16/AR-15 Conversion kits, need info


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Baneblade
July 15, 2009, 06:35 PM
My agency is looking at purchasing a couple of 22 lr conversion kits for our patrol rifles (varying AR-15 and M-16A1's). These would be the bolt replacement drop in variety, not the dedicated upper types.

What I need is some opinions and information from owners and first hand users. We would be using them for training. The idea would be to fire 400 rounds of 22 followed by 100 rounds of 223 in a training session. Saving money is the big factor here.

So what do you think? Are they reliable? Which brand? How well do they hold up? How is the manufacturer for customer service? How are the magazines? Are the mags durable? Will they hold up to training?

We are not looking at any particular brand, so feel free to include recommendations with links and prices if you have them.

Thanks.

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RP88
July 15, 2009, 07:28 PM
Spike's Tactical and CMMG offer drop-in conversions.

However, the best way to go is to get a .22lr upper, since that is made for .22

the drop-ins have a drastically different POI, and are notgoing to be as nicely accurate as a dedicated upper.

taliv
July 15, 2009, 08:03 PM
they are nowhere near as reliable as regular 223, but yeah, they're good for some training. it changes your manual of arms and your immediate action drills

be sure you clean the guns after firing the 22lr before firing the 223

they will shoot to a different POI (obviously)

get the black dog magazines

possum
July 15, 2009, 08:36 PM
i have a cmmg, with winchester ammo, they work 100% with over 1k rds, however mine dosen't like remington for some reason, i haven't tried federal yet but i do plan too soon.

i have 3 blackdog mags and one pro mag that i was given i haven't tried the pro mag yet but the black dog are good to go.

briansmithwins
July 15, 2009, 08:45 PM
I've yet to see a conversion that worked 100%. Misfeeds and the odd out-of-battery detonation seem to be the norm.

I've stuck with purpose designed .22s myself and have no problems. BSW

Baneblade
July 16, 2009, 11:26 AM
Thanks for the info so far. Blackdog mags seem to be king in that area, where is a good place to get them?

Where is a good place to get CMMG kits?

Possum, which Winchester rounds were you using?

Do 22 LR muck up the gas system?

How much of a difference is there on the POI/POA?

Does anyone have a reason to believe they would not be safe or that they would cause damage to the rifle?

Thanks

Avenger29
July 16, 2009, 11:31 AM
Do 22 LR muck up the gas system?

Many seem to have good luck shooting a few rounds of .223 at the end of a session to blow the gas tube out. And you may want to use plated rounds instead of plain lead.

DMK
July 16, 2009, 11:42 AM
However, the best way to go is to get a .22lr upper, since that is made for .22

the drop-ins have a drastically different POI, and are notgoing to be as nicely accurate as a dedicated upper.That's been my experience as well.

I built my own 22LR upper using a 1/12 twist barrel and a Ciener conversion kit with a standard flattop upper receiver. I plugged the gas port in the front sight block.

My intent was to use it as a trainer for my two HD carbines, so I equipped it with the same sights and red dot. Both the optic and irons are zeroed to 25 yards.

It was not expensive to build. I have maybe $350 into the upper fully decked out.

Reliability is great. I run Federal Champion and bulk packs ammo through it. Accuracy is very good out to 25 yards.

sarduy
July 16, 2009, 12:48 PM
Where is a good place to get CMMG kits?

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Feature_Item__CMMG_.22lr_Conversion_Kit_w__Magazine.html

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/cmmg22conv.jpg

jdh
July 16, 2009, 01:11 PM
I was happy to find the 20" bushmaster upper shot to POA at 50 yards with Federal bulk pack 22. The Brownell's branded CMMG kit has been flawless through about 250 rounds.

freakshow10mm
July 16, 2009, 01:13 PM
I'm sure if you contact CMMG directly they will discount for LE, especially an agency purchase for several of them.

ctiger
July 16, 2009, 04:36 PM
I recently researched this same topic and decided to go with the Spike's tactical. It is a very similar product but with a couple of "unique features."

FROM SPIKE'S WEBSITE:

Some unique features not found in any other current conversion kits include: O rings on the chamber adapter to keep the bolt centered in the .223 or 5.56 chamber and to increase the back pressure by sealing the adapter and not allowing so much carbon and gases to blow back, it also comes with a solid plug to take the place of your gas tube for those of you who shoot a lot or want to dedicate your 2.23 or 5.56 upper to .22lr. Of course, these will come with the electroless nickel finish that is on our current dedicated .22lr bolt. The auto trip kit is for those of you who currently have an M16 lower and would like to use this bolt in full auto. (It DOES NOT make your semi auto lower run full auto, it only enables the bolt to work on a full auto lower).

It also comes with a Black Dog magazine. I put one 525 round federal value pack of ammo through it and it functioned flawlessly. It definitely gets my vote.

Baneblade
July 20, 2009, 11:44 AM
One of our local stores has the CMMG kits in stock so I went in to check them out. I mentioned I was looking for one and the owner handed me one and said bring it back when you are finished testing it. He said the Sheriff's dept had just returned it that morning. He did warn me to use plenty of oil.

Of course I took it out first thing the next morning. I used one of our department M-16A1 rifles. Our ammo situation was interesting. We get boxes of misc ammo from Wal-mart. It is basically return ammo that they can't resell or send back to the manufacturer so they give it to us to "destroy." When it is a caliber we use, we will destroy it one round at a time. Everything else goes to the bomb squad and they add it to their "pile."

I ended up firing four full mags, just over 100 rounds. The ammo was a mixed assortment in a ziplock back. I don't even know what brands were in there. I didn't really care. I figured this would be a "worst case scenario" for ammo. In four mags I had 3 failures. One failure to eject one the misc bag and two failure to fires with CCI rounds.

I felt it was very accurate, based on the type of shooting we were doing. I wasn't shooting from a bench or rest and it hit what I was aiming at. I'm sure there is a difference at any real distance, but not at 25 yards.

In the end, I went right back to the Chief, told him how it did, and he said to get two. I cleaned the kit, returned it, and bought two. Each kit came with one Black Dog smoke 27 round mag.

If we fire 2000 total rounds through the kits we will be money ahead based on our LE ammo prices. It is certainly worth the risk at that price.

DMK
July 20, 2009, 02:14 PM
That's pretty impressive results with a mixed bag of ammo.

The 1/12 twist of that M16A1 is probably the best use for it. I think the 1/9, 1/8 or 1/7 twist rifles are a bit fast to stabilize 22LR.

Most 22LR rifles are what, 1/14 twist?

ArmedBear
July 20, 2009, 04:03 PM
My .22LR dedicated upper is VERY reliable.

It has the bolt assembly of a conversion (Ciener), but a special barrel with a .22LR chamber.

wally
July 20, 2009, 07:39 PM
Thanks for the info so far. Blackdog mags seem to be king in that area, where is a good place to get them?

Midway.

My C&R FFL discount helps.

--wally.

jpwilly
July 20, 2009, 11:50 PM
Brownell's sells the CMMG and Black Dog mags! I love my kit they run very well with Federal Bulk Pack ammo.

lefteyedom
July 21, 2009, 12:45 AM
When I went through basic training in 1984 the Air Force used the 22 Lr conversion at Lackland AFB. The conversion jammed allot is what I remember most. Getting a complete AR 22 lr upper would seem to be a better way to go.

Money is alway tight, but an idea for great cheap training is something like FATS. Meggitt Training systems is one of many. Now if some of Obama's Federal law enforcement stimulus money could be found....

mongo4567
July 21, 2009, 08:08 AM
I have a Spike's kit and am really happy with it. I've put about 1000 rounds through it so far. Any failures seem to be ammo related. I chose Spike's over the others due to the chrome plated bolt and o-ring gas seals.

ArmedBear
July 21, 2009, 06:51 PM
I'm not really happy with my Black Dog magazine. It's a thumbbuster. It does work, though, and provides LSHO.

The Ciener magazine I have is a pleasure to load.

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