CCW holders. Would you protect a stranger...


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Rtlan
July 16, 2009, 03:31 AM
What Happened:
I am a 38 year old gainfully employed information technology professional and IT consultant with over 12 years of experience. I've been married to the same wonderful woman for 15 years and have 3 sons. Prior to the incident described here I had no criminal record and had never even been arrested before.

On Sunday, November 5, 2006, I went to a nearby venue to watch a few bands play and relax after having worked about 80 hours that week authoring several technical white papers and performing network engineering tasks as part of my position as a senior consultant with a local technology company.

About an hour or two after I arrived I witnessed a one-sided fight unfold between two people I didn’t know. The attacker appeared to punch the victim with, in retrospect, a strange downward striking punch to the neck/shoulder area. The victim grabbed his assailant and they spun through the crowd before both of them fell to the floor.

At this point nobody stopped the struggle between the two so I rushed over and started to try and separate them while they were still on the concrete floor. While I was attempting to pull the victim off of the attacker the attacker slipped out from underneath his victim and fled through the crowd. Meanwhile, I continued to try and help the victim up but I couldn’t get a firm hold of him, and he was not responding.

Just as I noticed a significant amount of blood underneath the victim I was suddenly grabbed from behind and dragged backwards through the crowd towards the front door by security while I was being punched by several people. I was then pushed out of the front door and told to leave, nobody else followed me out at this point and the door was shut in front of me, even as I tried to tell them what happened.

I decided to just call it a night so I started to walk towards my home, which wasn’t too far away. A few seconds after I started walking a friend of mine came out and asked if I was alright. I told him I was fine, but as we walked about half way to the first intersection away from the venue we heard shouts coming from behind us and turned to see several people rush out the door.

People were pouring out of the doors and as they gathered on the street one person pointed at us and shouted “Get him!” The person who shouted grabbed the wooden placard in front of the door and raised it above his head as he started to run towards us with the rest of the large crowd following him. My friend yelled at me to run but I was already winded from being dragged out of the venue and punched several times,so I told him to get out of there and turned to face the rushing mob of people.


CCW holders, place yourself in the above situation. Would you protect a stranger you knew to be innocent from a mob of people? (http://injusticeinseattle.blogspot.com/2007/11/my-story.html)
No? What if it was your friend/loved one?
Yes? You are now the target as well.

How many rounds are at you carrying?

How do you handle this situation?

As a side note. I have played the part of good Samaritan before but have always come out on top of the situation (unarmed 6'7" man with an intimidating handlebar mustache). After reading the above account I have gained some reservations about fulfilling that role but find myself in quandary as to what to do as an armed citizen.

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General Geoff
July 16, 2009, 03:47 AM
An angry mob like that will invariably disperse and/or turn tail the moment you draw a pistol with intent to use it. And if for some reason they didn't see your pistol, the first shot will shatter their mob mentality to pieces. Focus on the ones with weapons. Drop the most immediate threats. Once the mob begins to flee, reholster and call the police.


As for getting involved in the first place, I probably wouldn't. I'd call the police and get the hell out of there.

j-easy
July 16, 2009, 04:04 AM
wow that's really sad, click the link and read the full article

Yosemite Sam
July 16, 2009, 07:12 AM
I read the full story, and it's worth reading. My goodness. Was this guy able to sue?

Yosemite Sam
July 16, 2009, 07:19 AM
I always have a flashlight on me. I'd shine the light on the fight/stabbing in progress to draw others' attention to it before I even thought of separating the fight. It'd be my worst nightmare to be wrongfully accused, and the corruption described in the link sickens me. He's lucky to be alive for doing a good deed.

SaxonPig
July 16, 2009, 07:32 AM
Trust me, you only have to shoot one of them. People who form mobs are brainless cowards and will not have the guts to stand up to someone who can effectively defend himself.

I've been training in Shotokan karate since 1973 and amongst experienced martial artists it's a well known fact that 99% of the time when facing multiple opponents you don't have to fight them all if you... er... "Mess up" the first one really badly.

Facing an angry mob? Just pick the guy with the biggest mouth and shoot him. The rest will run.

jhco
July 16, 2009, 07:46 AM
I would not use my ccw to help a stranger.
I would use it to help a friend or family member.
In either situation I would call the police first if possible/if time allowed.

dom1104
July 16, 2009, 08:21 AM
"unarmed 6'7" man with an intimidating handlebar mustache"


hah. Sorry but this is hilarious.

I must have missed being intimidated by lip hair.

"Quick honey, lock the car door, that guy has a mustache!"

lol........

Pistol Toter
July 16, 2009, 08:27 AM
If it ain't my fight; I ain't gitten involved. Finding yourself in someone elses problem gets you in jail and the other person walks away to live another day and forgetting you and / or the day you go to trial. "CCW holders. Would you protect a stranger..." Nope, not me.

Aaron12
July 16, 2009, 08:27 AM
If any of you reading this didn't read the whole story, i suggest you read it, its a fantastic read.

jackstinson
July 16, 2009, 08:28 AM
I didn't get my CHL to play policeman.

TexasRifleman
July 16, 2009, 08:36 AM
CCW holders, place yourself in the above situation. Would you protect a stranger you knew to be innocent from a mob of people?
No? What if it was your friend/loved one?
Yes? You are now the target as well.


The fundamental problem with this whole thing is that the story you reference has no indication of who was innocent. The guy in this story may have come to the aid of a gang member for all he knew. He says himself he had no idea who the guys were, just saw them fighting and decided to get in the middle of it.

About an hour or two after I arrived I witnessed a one-sided fight unfold between two people I didn’t know

What if one had been a cop? He didn't know.

Your question, would you help if you KNEW they were innocent, cannot be applied to the story here since the guy clearly didn't know that.

It's a perfectly fair question on its own but you can't combine it with this story here. 2 completely different situations.

Carl
July 16, 2009, 08:54 AM
Wow, this story sounds more like something that would happen in Soviet Russia, not in the US.

CoRoMo
July 16, 2009, 09:03 AM
I read the linked story, but I can't believe it.

No offense, but some of the claims in the story like the one about paramedics being ordered, by police, to cease in rendering aid to a person with those type of injuries, just doesn't smell right to me.

But anyway, I can't tell you what I will do when some event in the future takes place. I can tell you that I only plan/want to protect my family, friends, and self; not strangers who find themselves involved in a violent conflict.

How many rounds are at you carrying?

What does that matter?

steveracer
July 16, 2009, 09:17 AM
I look at it like this: Would I stop a man beating on a woman? Yep. Stop a man beating on a child? Yep. Stop a person preying on the elderly or disabled? Yep.
If I can help, I feel I must. I will do what it takes to satisfy my conscience. I could not live with myself if I walked away, and someone innocent suffered from my lack of give-a-crap.

Pistol Toter
July 16, 2009, 12:18 PM
I will do what it takes to satisfy my conscience. I could not live with myself if I walked away, and someone innocent suffered from my lack of give-a-crap.

Suppose, you see a man beating a woman :what: and envolve yourself. :scrutiny: You shoot and kill the man. :eek: When you come to trial you find out that the man and woman were husband and wife. OMG! She gets on the stand all cryy and blurry eyed over the death of her darling little hubby; and how that murdurious broot (YOU) killed her loving, true, all providing, etc, etc... Do I need to continue? NO! I don't think so. You got more money and hide to lose than I do. I envy you.:banghead:

c919
July 16, 2009, 12:26 PM
I hate to sound callous, but seriously, this is the exact worst case scenario that every book/article regarding CCW and defending stranger warns you about.

If anyone is CCing they should have, at bare minimum, read In the Gravest Extreme or something similar, and they should know that this is not all that unlikely in a situation of this sort.

Now just imagine how much worse this would have been if he had been CCing and actually killed someone.

I know I sure as hell dont want my face on the front page under a headline reading "Bystander Slays in Defense of Nazi Skinhead".......

SCREW THAT!

CoRoMo
July 16, 2009, 12:32 PM
I remember back when I got my carry permit, the class was give scads of these types of scenarios to think on. Far too many in the class were all too willing to intervene. After a bit of discussion, the instructors would add a little more to the scenario such as, one of the individuals is an undercover cop and you arrived four seconds after the drug sting went south, or they are husband and wife, etc.

If your conscience compels you to action, call 911, keep a safe distance, and give a detailed account of what's happening with precise descriptions of the individuals.

bigalexe
July 16, 2009, 12:42 PM
Disregarding whether im carrying a gun or not (im not a CCW holder) i would protect and individual if needed. I am just an old boy scout in some ways and "To help other people at all times" is one thing that sticks with me, even sometimes a little too much.

I think the last thing i would do is draw a pistol to intervene in a fistfight though. The pistol would only come out if A.) the mob turned on me or B.) Someone else drew first.

kingpin008
July 16, 2009, 12:50 PM
I didn't get my CHL to play policeman.

This.

Unless it involves me and mine, it's not my business to stick my nose into. I would keep my distance and be a good observer, and call the cops ASAP. Other than that, it's not my problem.

paintballdude902
July 16, 2009, 12:59 PM
depends if it looks like he will end up with a black eye and a bloody nose im not in it but i will call the cops

if i see them hitting the person with pipes and other objects that may lead to life threatening wounds yes i would

it also comes down to judgement say if i saw something happen like an elderly person being attacked, like what happened a few years back where i wwII vet was beaten and robbed then left for dead, i would being willing to use my ccw

Pistol Toter
July 16, 2009, 01:02 PM
I didn't get my CHL to play policeman.

Yeah, and I'm afraid there are a lot of CCW'ers that did. I just want to get back home and back behind closed and locked doors. My knuckles bruse far too easy, I hurt from old age, and my reflexes ain't what they used to be. The other people have the same opportunity as you did when it comes to their security, keep in mind they very well maybe the ones who think you a very very scarry man with a gun. I'm not an LEO, don't want to be and never did want to be one. If you see me, you'd think that I'm just an ole poor dirt farmer from the backside of Podunk County, Tennessee, a "sleeper" you see, which is just like I want it.:D

Leanwolf
July 16, 2009, 01:03 PM
Here's a story of a "good citizen" who did help at a critical time. And, he was "open carrying." Plus, he used one of those "almost useless" Colt's Single Action Army slow-to-load .45 Colt revolvers.





http://tinyurl.com/n2m9vq

Richmond Times-Dispatch
Two shot in South Richmond store
By Reed Williams

Published: July 12, 2009

A gunman who had wounded a shopkeeper and opened fire on several customers was stopped yesterday when another man shot him at the store in South Richmond, authorities said.

The violent attempted robbery took place shortly after 1 p.m. at the Golden Food Market at 2701 Jefferson Davis Highway, the same store where another man was shot last month -- and only three blocks from the scene of another robbery in June that left a shopkeeper dead.

Owners of as many as a dozen Jefferson Davis-area businesses flocked to the scene of the shooting, and many were rattled by such a brazen daylight attack, said Councilwoman Reva Trammell, whose 8th District includes the Jefferson Davis corridor.

Trammell, who arrived outside the store shortly after yesterday's shootings, described a frenzied scene. One man told Trammell that the man who had shot the robber was a guardian angel.

"Whoever did it probably saved their lives in there," Trammell said of the shooter.

Police did not identify anyone involved in yesterday's shootings.

The man who shot the robber is a friend of the store owner, and he was wearing a holster with a Western-style revolver, said Managing Deputy Commonwealth's Attorney Tracy Thorne-Begland.

After the suspect shot the store owner and opened fire on patrons, the owner's friend shot the suspect once in the torso, took his gun and called police, Thorne-Begland said.

Thorne-Begland said it appeared that the shooting of the suspect was justified, although he emphasized that the investigation was in the early stages.

Police said they expect to file charges against the suspect.

The store owner's injuries did not appear life-threatening, authorities said, but the gunman's injuries were said to be life-threatening. No one else was hurt.

Anthony Gregory, who lives near Golden Food, said he was in the store about 15 minutes before the shootings, and that while he was there, he saw a man with a baby making a purchase.

Gregory said the owner told the baby, "Welcome to the world. This is a dangerous world, so be careful. But don't worry, God will protect you."

Police Cmdr. Steve Drew said officers had been patrolling up and down Jefferson Davis yesterday and recently have bolstered their presence in the area. He said it was unusual for a commercial robbery to happen so early in the day.

The previous shooting at Golden Food took place late the night of June 12. And three nights earlier, a co-owner of the Come and Go Food Market, which is about three blocks north of Golden Food on Jefferson Davis, was shot and killed in a robbery.

Authorities said it was too early to know whether any of the three shootings on Jefferson Davis are connected.

A few hours after yesterday's shootings, Said "Sam" Messaf, the man who was shot June 12 at Golden Food, was at the store to help another man shut down the market.

Messaf described how he had been helping out at the store June 12 when two robbers came inside. One man opened fire, reaching over the counter and shooting as Messaf cowered behind it, he said. Messaf was shot six times in his legs.

He said he suffered nerve damage in his left leg and has trouble sleeping.

Trammell said residents and business owners were scared by the recent violence but have faith that police are doing their best to stop it.

"I'm still shook up," Trammell said. "I'm not afraid, but we've worked so hard on Jefferson Davis -- so hard in that area to bring crime down."


L.W.

goon
July 16, 2009, 01:22 PM
I avoid bars.

freakshow10mm
July 16, 2009, 01:23 PM
A man who does not help in the face of danger is a coward.

kingpin008
July 16, 2009, 01:25 PM
A man that rushes into a fight that's not his own is a fool.

mcdonl
July 16, 2009, 01:30 PM
A man who does not help in the face of danger is a coward.

I wish I agreed with this. I want to agree with this, and I think that morally I do... but my obligation is to raise my kids. By entering into a situation with a firearm, to help a stranger I put my family at risk of me being shot, or me going to jail.

A coward is someone who turns thier head... I would not do that, I would do what I could to assist short of killing another person to save a stranger and risk losing my life, or leaving my family in emotional and financial ruins.

What would your wife and kids feel about that freakshow... just asking, because I did ask my wife and kids and though they would want me to help if I could, they would NOT want me to do it at thier peril.

BikerRN
July 16, 2009, 02:17 PM
If your conscience compels you to action, call 911, keep a safe distance, and give a detailed account of what's happening with precise descriptions of the individuals.

+1 :)

Here's some light reading for you that think otherwise.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

It amazes me how so many people that would otherwise be rational and have the ability to engage in critical thinking become "instinctive and reactive" once they start carrying a gun. Carrying a gun is a "thinking" persons game, because it ain't no game.

If you want to save the world go join Greenpeace or somethin'.

BikerRN

Diamondback6
July 16, 2009, 02:49 PM
I'm callin' 911 to vector in the pros--I ain't engagin' directly until the fight comes to me or mine.

Now, if somebody insists on making it Time Zero and Ground Zero, on the other hand... then I'll do what I gotta do to protect myself and my own. I just hope Time Zero never comes...

kda
July 16, 2009, 03:00 PM
Tough question. My first instinct would be to make sure I was absolutely positive who was really the "bad" guy ... if in fact that could even be determined. Often they are both "bad guys".

I would be far more likely to intercede if it was an elderly person, female or child that was being attacked by an young male adult and it was clear that the attacker intended to and had the means to inflict serious injury (not just a purse snatch for example).

And I would certainly consider where I was located at that moment. Am I in my home state, where I feel I understand my rights and obligations with CCW? Or am I in a state where my CCW may be honored but I have no good understanding of how state LEOs approach issues of self-defense or defense of others. Seattle is now definitely off my list of places where I would intercede. If the citizens tolerate police actions as described, then it is clear that they are also OK being victims.

My wife and I purchased our firearms and then trained and obtained our CCW permits to protect ourselves and those we love when it appears that LEOs cannot arrive in time to do so. In AZ, you are quite safe doing that. From newspaper accounts about relevant incidents, it seems clear that AZ LEOs are comfortable with the concept of self defense by responsible citizens. But I have been led to believe that most states are not quite as second amendment friendly as AZ. Some states appear to be downright hostile to the idea of protecting yourself with force.

sneedb82
July 16, 2009, 03:19 PM
What if one had been a cop? He didn't know.

Your question, would you help if you KNEW they were innocent, cannot be applied to the story here since the guy clearly didn't know that.

It's a perfectly fair question on its own but you can't combine it with this story here. 2 completely different situations.

The question was not whether the man that was stabbed was innocent, or if you knew he was innocent would you help, but rather read to convey that you the friend are walking with the guy and the mob is after the guy (that assumed to be helping a guy that had been stabbed).

You know the guy is innocent, you were there with him! You know he didn't do anything wrong, he knows he didn't do anything wrong.... so would you help him

I would stay and help with the guy that was walking out, facing the angry mob. And you better believe that a bullet flying to the mob would scare the heeby-geebies out of them to stop what they were doing.... and darn skippy I'm calling the Police because you know the other members in the mob will do the same thing and claim you assaulted them witha deadly weapon. Better to have a witness there on your side to help defend yourself against the angry mob when the police get there.

MisterMike
July 16, 2009, 03:26 PM
No offense, but some of the claims in the story like the one about paramedics being ordered, by police, to cease in rendering aid to a person with those type of injuries, just doesn't smell right to me.


I concur. But, as to the general question, "Would you protect a stranger?", my answer is yes, with a fair number of qualifications.

First, as far as I'm concerned, If I were to come across a situation in which I could come to the aid of of an innocent person I'd do so in a heartbeat. At least I'd hope I would . . . I suppose few of us can accurately predict exactly how we'd react in a high-stress, life-or-death scenario.

With all the bravado tossed about here and in similar forums about "sheep, wolves, and sheepdogs," I'm always a little surprised when I see someone say, in effect, "if it's not my problem, I'm walking away." I applaud those folks for their candor, but I think it's morally wrong--how many times has the decision to walk away, to avert one's eyes, led to great tragedy? Maybe if I'm ever confronted with the situation I'll find that I'm a coward, but I would hope that my first impulse would always be to intervene on behalf of a defenseless victim.

Nonetheless, there's a clear line between acting in a moral manner and acting rashly. Actually, turning to the original, fishy story, it seemed to me that the author was pretty stupid--intervening in an apparent instance of mutual combat, with no knowledge of who was the aggressor and who was the victim. To me, that's just dumb. Further, given the way these things unfold, it seems quite likely that one will choose the wrong side or, at a minimum, manage to get one's self killed or seriously hurt. Speaking as a former cop, I can also note that it's not unheard of for two dipsticks who are fighting one another to turn on a peacemaker. Nope . . . in the scenario originally described, our superhero just used poor judgment.

So, my conclusion is yes, I would definitely step in to protect an innocent victim. I would just hope that if I'm ever confronted with such a situation that it's as clear-cut as I hope it would be. If it's a couple of idiots duking it out, or if it's not clear who's right or wrong, call the cops and maintain a safe distance.

c919
July 16, 2009, 04:16 PM
A man who does not help in the face of danger is a coward.

Sure seems to me like some extra danger was created.

Before: Two man physical altercation

After: Angry mob rioting in the streets and a touch of racial tension

I too wish I agreed, but unless I personally know that its the life or death of an innocent person and what the outcome/ result of my interference will be, Im stayin out of it.

CoRoMo
July 16, 2009, 04:23 PM
Define "help". While you do, I'll be a good witness on the phone with 911. That's how I'd help.

It would be ridiculous to put your life at risk for something that you can't even define. If you think you can jump into the middle of something and you're not putting your life at risk, you have a serious case of 'little man wit a big gun' arrogance. There's no way you can determine what is happening or where it will end up. It's just not worth it.

jcs271
July 16, 2009, 04:35 PM
Way to many inconsistincies in this guys story. First off, no jail, and certainly no big city facility will take in a prisoner with any open wounds or obvious serious injuries. The intake deputy will ALWAYS require medical clearance from a hospital before booking, for the simple reason that the sheriff will not assume liabilty for those injuries already sustained nor do they want the possibility of the injuries being blamed on jail staff. 2nd no paramedic when summoned to treat someone as seriously injured as this guy claims to have been will just pack up and leave before completing his exam. There are many, many other inconsistencies but his assertion that NO LAWYER in Seattle would take his civil case against the jail/officers is mind boggling. That is the exact kind of case that lawyers dream of. An "innocent" victim and a defendant (King County/Seattle) with VERY deep pockets. While I imagine there is a level of truth in his story, it appears to have been quite embellished.

357mag.
July 16, 2009, 05:11 PM
I would "help" by calling the police.It's their job,not mine as a cpl holder.WAY to great of a chance the "good-guy" ends-up paying dearly in the end (hurt,dead or in jail)I carry to protect myself and my loved ones,make me fear for my or their safety/life and I will not hesitate to protect them.Most everyone else better hope the police get there quick.For those who don't want to be a "coward",make sure to have that put on your grave marker or bright orange jump-suit :rolleyes:

BlayGlock
July 16, 2009, 05:28 PM
BikerRN that is a great article. Thank you for posting it, it may be on eof the most helpful things on here.

Gottahaveone
July 16, 2009, 06:29 PM
I have to lean towards "no" here. Mostly because SC law holds that you cannot claim Self Defense if you are a party to the altercation, i.e. you engage in an exchange of heated words with someone and he pulls a knife, you can't claim Self Defense if you shoot him.
It also states that if you use deadly force on behalf of someone else, then you are placed in their stead and if a Self Defense claim wouldn't have been available to them, then you can't claim it for yourself in acting on their behalf.

So if I walk up on something already happening I have no way of knowing if the guy who's about to get stabbed was an innocent victim who was "legal" for me to help or someone who bit off more than they could chew and was about to get stuck after starting an altercation. So my self defense pistol is for exactly that...self defense.

Templar223
July 16, 2009, 09:06 PM
A man who does not help in the face of danger is a coward.


A wise man.

Personally, I used to have the attitude, "If it isn't me or mine, they are on their own."

One of my students raised his hand one day in class when I remarked the clerk at the store was on her own in a violent armed robbery scenario. He said, "What if that was my daughter?"

That was a very interesting perspective that has since changed me in a big way.

If it was my mother about to be shot, I'd be very grateful for a man with some testicles and a personal defense tool to intervene to save her from death or great bodily injury.

And I expect those of you who say you wouldn't intervene to save an innocent stranger would probably appreciate it if I intervened to save your daughter from abduction or your wife from harm.

John

danprkr
July 16, 2009, 09:34 PM
Done it. Not armed at the time, but one of the reason I am armed now. I just couldn't let the guy beat his wife in front of me anymore.

Working in a convenience store late at night. Lady runs in face covered with blood screaming that he's trying to kill her, and help help. I call 911. Guy comes in and goes to beating on her. I call him out, and get her into the office. He threatens to kill me. He jumps counter and goes after my coworker. I grab his arm from behind, and dislocate his shoulder. His wife comes out and leaves with him. My last view of her was of him driving with his left arm, and her having yanked his right into socket getting beat with it. Cops came and took a statement to late to do any good. I gave them plate number of course, but nothing was expected. Guy came back and wrote me a check giving me his name, address, DL number, and phone number. I called cops back, and had him picked up on 'Assault by Threat' charges. Never heard a thing about it again.

But, I'd do it again in the same situation.

junyo
July 16, 2009, 09:45 PM
I wish I agreed with this. I want to agree with this, and I think that morally I do... but my obligation is to raise my kids. By entering into a situation with a firearm, to help a stranger I put my family at risk of me being shot, or me going to jail.
I want my kids to know their dad doesn't stand around and watch someone get beaten/stabbed to death in front of him. There are bigger things, in the grand scheme of things, than my own skin.

I'm not a tough guy, but this whole "I look after me and mine" philosophy always bothers me. I'm not jumping into a fistfight between to grown men; I am screaming my head off for security or a cop (and I am defending my person if one of the combatants decides that I should their next target). Because I'd hope someone would do it for me if they saw me getting beaten. Or for my SO, or for my kid, or my mom, or any one. It's a basic function of living in a civilized society that we at least pretend to care about our neighbors. I know it's so very libertarian to mind your own business, but are we so far down that road that we no longer need to care if someone lives or dies as long as we don't personally know them? Criminals and *********s of all stripe have their lives made easier knowing how many people can't or won't get involved.

357mag.
July 16, 2009, 09:46 PM
Yes I would appreciate it,but,I could not blame you if you did'nt.I have thought about it from that angle in the past but still say MY #1 responseabilty is to me and my family.Also,as far as adults go we have a choice to do everything we can to protect ourself's,or not,and let the police do it for us.We who carry made our choice,and those who don't made theirs.

DeepSouth
July 16, 2009, 09:58 PM
CCW holders. Would you protect a stranger...?

A quote from Martin Luther ((((that I have never been able to verify for sure.

"Not only do I have the right to defend myself, I have a duty to protect others."

I agree with him.

No, I'm not a cop, or anything else. But I will not watch a victim get killed, raped, murdered, maimed, beaten, stabbed, ect, ect.

Say what you want, but I'll bet if I protected the life of your mother, sister, brother, ect you would be thankful. AND I'll bet if I stood there, or walked off while they were being killed or raped, you would ask "Why didn't you do something?

TheProf
July 16, 2009, 10:56 PM
We have a moral duty to protect the weak and innocent. HOWEVER, don't get yourself involved in a situation where you are not clear on identifying the "innocent victim" from the "aggressor".

Sometimes, there is no "innocent" party. In many domestic violence cases, if you intervene, (man beating up on a woman), that very woman you just helped will turn around to attack you later on in court for shooting/beating up her man. (In no way am I implying that the woman is at fault or that she deserves her abuse. Not at all. I am just commenting on human psychology. There are those who stick by their abusers and are psychologically dependent on them.)

You see two guys beating up on one guy... Looks simple enough. Right? Well, guy getting beat up could be the original aggressor and the other two making a citizen's arrest. Or it could be a gang initiation... you intervene...and the whole pack turns on you.

So...unless you are a cop... slow down and down be in a hurry to unholster your weapon. Unholster your phone instead and call 911. I would yell at them to stop and warn them that I called the police.

I would assess the situation...and may jump in...but only after I am understand what is going on.

Mags
July 16, 2009, 11:01 PM
Short answer no. Long answer yes. Too many variables must be assessed with the unique situation and the fact that I have a firearm should not matter when it comes to doing what is right.

springmom
July 16, 2009, 11:07 PM
Sure I would. I would be a good witness. I would call 911. I would get as good a description as possible. I would start screaming my fool head off to the effect of "HELP! HELP! HE'S KILLING THAT MAN! HELP!" I can be REALLY loud when need be, after raising four children.

What I would NOT do is wade in, all almost-55 years old, rheumatoid arthritis disabled parts of me, and try to get into a fight.

This idea that one must either get physically involved or else be a coward is nonsense. Mindset, skillset, toolset. Use the first and you may not need anything else.

Jan

CoRoMo
July 16, 2009, 11:16 PM
I would start screaming my fool head off...

I love it!!

Seriously, you nailed it.

Straight Shooter
July 16, 2009, 11:43 PM
This isn't a simple yes or no answer. I guess I would have to say it depends.

My first and most important responsibility is to my wife and kids. That being said, I don't think I could see a woman being raped or an old man/woman pummeled and not do anything.

However, as described in the OP, a fight in a bar or concert? I wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. I would let security know and let them handle it.

Rockwell1
July 17, 2009, 08:08 AM
I haven't had time to read the whole thread so this may have been addressed alreadybut, wasn't trying to protect some random stranger what started this whole mess in the first place?

smktr8
July 17, 2009, 08:29 AM
This is a great question and I love reading all the different answers. I have steped in at a concert to stop this guy from beating his exgirl friend. I watched it all unflod untill he hit her then as soon as I got up off the lawn others helped I had no gun with me. if this was in the street I would of helped also and would of had my gun but would not of pulled it untill the threat was on me. Lets face it if you pull your gun in public you will end in court. So in my State/Commonwealth the only reason to pull your gun is a life threat on me or my family no other reason would fly in court I dont think also dont want to find out. But very good questions:)

Oh forgot one answer If I had my glock I would have 51 rounds if I had my M&P I would have 24 rounds

Shung
July 17, 2009, 09:13 AM
scary story..

really, when you think about it, you really have to behave not to think about doing violent things to certain people, like those cops, the prosecutor, etc...

mcdonl
July 17, 2009, 10:37 AM
You know... after reading this I may think differently... I may be able to change my answer to yes, because I really do want to think I could help.

http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/statutes/17-a/title17-Asec108.html

rbernie
July 17, 2009, 10:43 AM
This idea that one must either get physically involved or else be a coward is nonsense. Mindset, skillset, toolset. Use the first and you may not need anything else.
Bravo!

Well said, and well worth repeating.

Pistol Toter
July 17, 2009, 12:19 PM
This idea that one must either get physically involved or else be a coward is nonsense. Mindset, skillset, toolset. Use the first and you may not need anything else.

Yeah I like that too. I'm gonna copy that down.

mcdonl
July 17, 2009, 12:21 PM
I guess what the instructors say is true. You *DO* need to change your behavior and thinking when you carry a firearm.

Gryffydd
July 17, 2009, 12:35 PM
Lesson #1. Skip the public defender and get a real lawyer RFN. If it takes you 5 years to pay off so be it.

rainbowbob
July 17, 2009, 01:17 PM
The question comes up often here - and usually ends in thread-lock after the "mind-your-own-business" contingent and the "do-the-right-and-noble-thing" crowd duke it out for a while.

The tale that is given as the example this time around smells fishier than a bag of shrimp tails sitting in the sun for three days.

Lou McGopher
July 17, 2009, 01:54 PM
Anybody remember the Golden Rule?

Would you want someone to come to your aid if you were being viciously attacked?

Pistol Toter
July 17, 2009, 02:28 PM
Anybody remember the Golden Rule?

Would you want someone to come to your aid if you were being viciously attacked?


"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you," might be applicable if the judge, jury, prosecuter,... goverened themselves by the same precepts and principles as the Golden Rule. Unfortunately there aren't many Solomon's sitting on the benches of jurisprudence these days.

Oh, I might also add if I'm attacked, I'm ready.

Zach S
July 17, 2009, 07:09 PM
There's no "Yes" or "No" answer to this. The best you could do is come up with a situation, and see how folks will react.

I always have a flashlight on me. I'd shine the light on the fight/stabbing in progress to draw others' attention to it before I even thought of separating the fight.Same here. Always have a G2, spare batteries in my locker, a box in my car, another in my truck...

Its known as the "flare gun" at work.

Here's some light reading for you that think otherwise.

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

It amazes me how so many people that would otherwise be rational and have the ability to engage in critical thinking become "instinctive and reactive" once they start carrying a gun. Carrying a gun is a "thinking" persons game, because it ain't no game.

If you want to save the world go join Greenpeace or somethin'.

BikerRN
You know, if I had time to think, I would probably just be a good witness, as I have done in the past.

However, I have also intervened (didn't think, reacted instead), and (thankfully) have no regrets about doing so.

I agree with a lot of the statements in that link. However, I also disagree, depending on the situation.

2RCO
July 17, 2009, 08:15 PM
My BS ometer hits about a 9.95 out of 10 on this story. I've had a pretty nasty concussion and I couldn't tell you what the heck really happened in the next 24 hours. I was off in Lalaland thought everyone was trying to give me a math test according to the folks that were around.

If this story is for some reason true several LEO's paramedics, and nurses should be jobless for incompetence and the key people should get some time in their own facility. --Once again I call BS.

The Lone Haranguer
July 17, 2009, 10:07 PM
I would not say to never come to the aid of a stranger. But be careful. Things are not always as they seem. Very definitely, stay out of other peoples' mutual combat situations.

springmom
July 17, 2009, 11:48 PM
And a timely reminder of something else that can go wrong when you decide to stick your oar in without knowing what you're doing....

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=463078

Jan

kanewpadle
July 18, 2009, 12:05 AM
Not to steer anyone away front this site. But I encourage you to read Evan Marshall's Commentary on "Danger's of Intervention".

http://www.stoppingpower.net/commentary/comm_dangers_in_intervention.asp

You don't have to agree with his work. But his experience in such matters makes sense.

moooose102
July 18, 2009, 09:12 AM
in my state, it is ilegal to bring a ccw to a bar in the first place. plus, i do not go to bars anymore. so i would not have been in that situation anyway.

BHPshooter
July 18, 2009, 04:29 PM
Would you protect a stranger you knew to be innocent from a mob of people?

My personal rule is that I will protect people I know and/or care about. That's it.

A man who does not help in the face of danger is a coward.

I teach CCW, and there's always somebody in class that thinks this way.

A CCW does NOT come with a cape! Put down the comic books and step away slowly.

A quote from Martin Luther ((((that I have never been able to verify for sure.

"Not only do I have the right to defend myself, I have a duty to protect others."

I agree with him.


Having a CCW Doesn't make you Spider-Man, and it doesn't make you a Cop. Getting involved in ANY situation that doesn't directly involve you in the first place is a VERY bad idea, and the article in the Original Post is yet more proof of that.

From both a Legal and a Strategic standpoint, it's not a good idea.

Morally, ethically? That's up to you to decide. You've got to look at yourself in the mirror every day, and I understand that, but if you're not careful, you'll end up looking into a polished stainless steel mirror, wearing a bright orange jumpsuit.

Wes

TexasRifleman
July 18, 2009, 04:39 PM
A man who does not help in the face of danger is a coward.

I agree, but just drawing a gun and running into the middle of an unknown mess isn't necessarily "helping" anything.

Hush
July 18, 2009, 06:06 PM
I read that whole article in the link. Sounds like a wonderful piece of fiction.

Mags
July 18, 2009, 06:06 PM
I read that whole article in the link. Sounds like a wonderful piece of fiction.
What?

Deltaboy
July 18, 2009, 07:21 PM
Yes it did sound fishy to me too.

herohog
July 18, 2009, 09:01 PM
I would have helped and have, many times. The instant I was tossed out and unable to get in, I would have called the police with my cell phone. Because I live in VA, I would have been unarmed or open carrying and not drinking (I am the default Designated Driver anyway as I don't drink). My car would have been close as I am disabled. There WILL be a gun in there. I would have probably been in my car with my gun by the time a crowed gathered and seeing them come, I would have closed and locked the doors. IF they tried to break in and drag me out, THEN I would draw my gun and again hit the cell phone.

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