I expect to be stoned-AR/AK


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jim in Anchorage
July 16, 2009, 06:02 AM
Yes, I am sticking a branch in the hornets nest,but what is the charm of these guns? A military gun whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply,yet people are willing to pay $2000 for them. If you are that worried about SHTF,buy a generator and 300 gal diesel.

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THE DARK KNIGHT
July 16, 2009, 06:10 AM
OK I own basically one of the closest things to a "real" AK you can get, I have a Saiga rifle converted to standard config and it it about $700 in total. Second I don't want it for SHTF I want it for fun. It's great to shoot, was fun to build and customize and work on, and was money well spent.

Also the AK may be cheap to manufacture but it is without a doubt the most rugged, reliable military rifle out there. It runs covered in mud, sand, water, you name it. There are 50+ year old AKM's in use right now that have spent 50 years being beaten and cleaned with boot laces/motor oil and will eat whatever ammo its given every time.

Grey_Mana
July 16, 2009, 06:15 AM
As a toy, they are great. As a tool, they are great. Are they the best use of $2000 in preparing yourself? Well, yes. If you need to take from somebody else to survive, or armed people want to take from you, then having a better gun is 1, having less gun is 0 gun.

For most disaster scenarios, being physically fit is critically important. Being able to carry stuff, to run from danger, to not immediately fall down or pass out if you're hit by something/someone, to be able to toil at digging, clearing, rebuilding. To survive dysentery, or the bird/swine/monkey flu.

Nobody likes to think about hard work and sickness. Shooting zombies, that's kinda fun to think about.

ScrwnyM4
July 16, 2009, 06:15 AM
I own a AR, but it has nothing to do with SHTF. I simply wanted one... With that said the appeal for me is that I was in the military and am well aware of the capabilities of the platform. As long as they are kept clean and lubed they are reliable and accurate weapon platforms that can be converted to many different calibers. With one lower receiver you can build many different guns. Another is that if you are in to the whole tactical thing, I can't think of another rifle that has so many available accesories... That is it for me in a nut shell...

DMK
July 16, 2009, 07:26 AM
A military gun whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply,yet people are willing to pay $2000 for them.Are you talking about the AR or AK? They are very different rifles. Do your research.

The AK was designed to be simple and cheaply produced. ARs are more expensive and were designed as a lightweight rifle to be manufactured using techniques and materials borrowed from the areospace industry (in the late 1950s/ early 1960s).

I own one AK, just for the charm of it, because it is cheap to purchase ($300 for my SAR1), cheap to feed and uber reliable. I like the rifle for its simplicity and ruggedness, but I won't buy another. In fact, I actually prefer the SKS to the AK.

I own 7 ARs because they are fun to build, very accurate, easy to maintain, lightweight, versatile, have many optional features and configurations, excellent sights and great ergonomics. I built my first one from parts because I'm a gearhead and love to build things. The first time I took it to the range, I fell in love with how it handled and how it shoots. If I could only have one rifle, it would be an AR, with several uppers in different calibers.


http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/LightRifle.jpg
Basic M16A1 type clone chambered in .223/5.56

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/ARTwentyTwo.jpg
AR15 chambered in 22LR

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/762x39_AR.jpg
AR15 chambered in 7.62x39

benEzra
July 16, 2009, 08:07 AM
I'm sure that lever-action and falling-block aficionados felt similarly when military-style bolt-actions displaced "traditional" civilian rifles in the early to mid 20th century.

The AR platform did not become the dominant centerfire target rifle and defensive carbine in the United States because of concerns about "SHTF", but because of its merits (accuracy, ergonomics, modularity, versatility).

With regard to the AK---if Winchester came out with a semiauto .30-30 that was even more rugged and reliable under adverse conditions than the Model 94, used interchangeable detachable magazines of 5, 10, 20, or 30 rounds, had a built-in optics mount, and priced it at $400 to $700, do you think anyone would buy it? Because that's pretty much what a civilian AK is, a detachable-magazine autoloading .30-30 built for extreme reliability and durability.

jackstinson
July 16, 2009, 08:22 AM
I am constantly trying to understand why so many folks here seem to think that the ONLY reasons for anyone to a firearm are; self-defense, SHTF, or Zombies. There are other reasons you know. Most of my guns I bought just for FUN
You remember "fun", right??? ;)
Blasting a target with a couple hundred 7.62x39 Brown Bears from an AK-type on a sunny afternoon is just plain FUN!
What other reason do I need?

SSN Vet
July 16, 2009, 08:50 AM
well ..... some people chose not to put their head in the sand and saw the threat of a potential Obama admin. for exactly what it was.... liberal gun grabbers who would bankrupt the nation.

Unless one was not of legal age or lacked the funds.... I don't know what anybody has to complaign about. The writing was there on the wall for all to read.

It should be no surprise that lot's of people read it and decided to get while the getting was good.

Some read it earlier than others and benefited from their foresight.

I put together my nicely converted Saiga for $425 and a kit build AR middy for $675. Both of these were quite a financial stretch for a Joe middle class guy like me, with kids to feed and a mortgage to pay. But I found a way.

Now, I enjoy and respect them as useful tools that are a pleasure to use and to master.

It is what it is....

Frankly, I'm a little tired of listening to all the whining and think that energy could have been better spent being thoughtful and resourceful instead.

Example... Small rifle primers were out there to be had... for those willing to put in the energy into the search. I made some phone calls and was willing to drive a little ways and within a few weeks replenished my meager stock.

Get over it people....

and OBTW... After seeing my first New England ice storm 11 years ago.... I quickly punched the generator and fuel storage tickets .... not to mention putting a wood heat option in the middle of my house building plans and maintaining my fire wood inventory at ~ 6 cords.

Jorg Nysgerrig
July 16, 2009, 09:06 AM
A military gun whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply,yet people are willing to pay $2000 for them. If you are that worried about SHTF,buy a generator and 300 gal diesel.
I'm afraid I don't understand what purchasing a AR15 has to do with being worried about SHTF. This may come as a total surprise, but there are people on this forum who enjoy shooting for the sake of shooting and not preparing for a disaster. Some folks even have such rifles purely for the sake of competition and don't even have a box of MREs in the closet.

clemsonu0219
July 16, 2009, 09:12 AM
I'm afraid I don't understand what purchasing a AR15 has to do with being worried about SHTF. This may come as a total surprise, but there are people on this forum who enjoy shooting for the sake of shooting and not preparing for a disaster. Some folks even have such rifles purely for the sake of competition and don't even have a box of MREs in the closet.

Yep.

CoRoMo
July 16, 2009, 09:15 AM
Yes, I am sticking a branch in the hornets nest,but what is the charm of these guns?

It would take a thread a mile long to answer this question, because every AR owner and every AK owner here would have to make a couple posts describing their opinions. If making a blanket assumption as to the pretenses of AR/AK enthusiasts is your way of stirring up a hornets nest, I guess you accomplished that. Just don't be so quick to judge.

KenWP
July 16, 2009, 09:18 AM
Since I have no idea what SHTF even is I would guess I will never have any need for a AR or AK or any other kind of rifle that looks like that. I have my semi auto 22s for rapid fire and I have my elaphant guns for the really big stuff and I have 30-06s and such to keep food on the table. What else could a guy need or want. Also have a few shotguns for birds and what ever else a shotgun works for.

CoRoMo
July 16, 2009, 09:23 AM
I have no idea what SHTF even is

S*** Hits The Fan

Dravur
July 16, 2009, 09:30 AM
Oh joy....

Another "Why do you need such and such gun" thread. I guess the other 500 threads on this weren't enough.

How about this.... You buy whatever gun you want, and I will buy whatever gun I want. I wont care that you bought a .475 Thunderboomer but have never been to Africa and no intentions of ever shooting anything larger than a chipmunk and I expect you not to care when I buy the rifles that interest me.

Nuff said

BMF500
July 16, 2009, 09:38 AM
I bought my SKS just for fun. They are incredibly reliable, affordable, and just plain ol' fun. For pactical purposes I routinely use it for hunting hogs, and I have even used it a couple of times for deer hunting. As far as SHTF, I hope that never happens.....

DHJenkins
July 16, 2009, 09:41 AM
You got another rifle effective to 600M that can carry 100 rds in one mag?

Seriously, that's like asking "why on earth do you like pickles?"

To each his own, and I'll spend my money however I like.

test drive
July 16, 2009, 09:48 AM
when the S realy does HTF someone will try to take your generator and 300 gal. of diesel and they won't be asking nice-like.:banghead:

hso
July 16, 2009, 10:08 AM
If you are that worried
You've made a false assumption based on your lack of appreciation for these rifles for simple shooting enjoyment.

whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply,yet people are willing to pay $2000 for them

Again, you've made an incorrect assumption based on not understanding the rifle type. $2,000 ARs aren't intended to be mass produced cheaply, $700 ARs are. A 2k$ AR is intended as a precision rifle. You can add a bunch of "stuff" onto a basic AR and drive the price up, but that isn't the rifle. A base 2k$ AR is for competitive shooting at 1,000 meters.

what is the charm of these guns?

Their good ergonomics and minimal recoil make them enjoyable to shoot. Their historical role makes them interesting. I don't understand on a gut level why my buddy ever paid for a Roush Mustang, but I accept on an intellectual level that he enjoys it in spite of my not wanting one. On the other hand, he understands on a gut and intellectual level why I have the guns that I have and doesn't disparage my firearms collection or that I drive a 10 year old Toyota with over 200,000 miles on it.

John-Melb
July 16, 2009, 10:22 AM
AR/AK as a "SHTF" gun? Bah Humbug!

My "SHTF" gun's a Hawken!

:neener::neener::neener:

Deanimator
July 16, 2009, 10:24 AM
With TWO uppers and EVERY accessory, my AR didn't come CLOSE to $2000.

I was having problems with neo-Nazis who were posting death threats and maps to my home on usenet when I bought it. It would have been a very handy tool if any of those goosestepping kiddie diddlers had ever grown a pair and acted on their impotent threats. Under those circumstances, a generator wouldn't have been of much use to me.

LRaccuracy
July 16, 2009, 10:57 AM
I own an Ak and an AR for only one reason.... BECAUSE I CAN.

What I do with them at any point in time is my decision.

CoRoMo
July 16, 2009, 10:58 AM
Jim... come back and tell us how the flames were received.

FWIW, I think it is only sensible to use effective battle weapons for HD/SD. Otherwise, I'd just keep a large screwdriver on my nightstand.

ezypikns
July 16, 2009, 11:15 AM
doesn't mean we should always express them.

And I really like this quote:

How about this.... You buy whatever gun you want, and I will buy whatever gun I want.

That just about says it all.

Justin
July 16, 2009, 11:16 AM
Yes, I am sticking a branch in the hornets nest,but what is the charm of these guns? A military gun whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply,yet people are willing to pay $2000 for them. If you are that worried about SHTF,buy a generator and 300 gal diesel.

If the whole point of the AR15 platform is to be "produced cheaply" and offers no other advantages, perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to why AR15's in various configurations now absolutely dominate the field in every form of competitive shooting that allows them. From old-school High Power Service Rifle matches to New School Multigun/3 Gun competitions, the AR15 is the choice of the vast majority of competitors, and so far as I've seen, all of the winners.

I mean, sure the AR would make a good SHTF gun, but I'm not the sort of guy who sits in his basement, surrounded by pallets of MRE's fantasizing about Mad Max.

tac34
July 16, 2009, 11:17 AM
If the S*it really does HTF someday you will finally understand.

BMF500
July 16, 2009, 11:30 AM
I expect to be stoned-


More like caught in a rock slide.....:evil:

Robert
July 16, 2009, 11:34 AM
Jim,
I don't see the appeal of an AR either. So I bought a FAL.

ClickClickD'oh
July 16, 2009, 11:35 AM
I'm sure that lever-action and falling-block aficionados felt similarly when military-style bolt-actions displaced "traditional" civilian rifles in the early to mid 20th century.And the black powder guys probably felt the same way when the Levers and Falling Blocks started showing up.

Darn newfangled military technology..

SHusky57
July 16, 2009, 11:37 AM
As a toy, they are great. As a tool, they are great. Are they the best use of $2000 in preparing yourself? Well, yes. If you need to take from somebody else to survive, or armed people want to take from you, then having a better gun is 1, having less gun is 0 gun.

I don't know about best use of $2000.... if all you have is $2000, a portion of that should probably go to food, water, bug-out vehicle, generator, gardening equipment, an alarm system, lots of other things that may be more strategically beneficial....

While AR's are probably the best civilian rifles out there for zombies, if a joe is on a budget it could make sense to plan differently. A mossberg shotgun for $200 would cover most peoples needs, and allow them to buy things that are more useful than a c-mag.... unless you think you're rambo, which unless you have been to Ranger school, I assure you, you are not.

I own an Ak and an AR for only one reason.... BECAUSE I CAN.

What I do with them at any point in time is my decision.

I can buy a case of vodka and a carton of cigarettes and down them all in one sitting but that doesn't seem like a smart thing to do, does it?

Okay, before I get flamed and beat up....

I am not dissing ARs. I'm really thinking about a S&W MP15. But seriously, this whole SHTF thing.... if we are talking a break-in, an old pump shotgun and an alarm system can go a lot further than 10 loaded p-mags because the likelihood of needing 300 rounds in a home invasion....

if we are talking, it's the end of the world and you're stuck at work, a .38 special or Glock 19 might be more important because it's the difference between you getting home to your $2000 AR or not.

And if we are taking really bad like Katrina, well you should have spent some money stocking up on rice and canned goods.... and I don't know of many scenarios where a $200 pump shotgun wouldn't be just as utilitarian as the AR. And if you are worried about zombie biker raiders shooting at you from 100 yards away, SKS's could once be had for like $200 and are about as effective as most joes can be.

But to defend the AR:
If I was a serious varmint hunter, I would get an AR.
If I wanted to win 3 gun comps, I would get an AR.
If I had a lot of spare cash laying around, I would get an AR.
If I already had food and medicine stored, and my transportation+shelter covered for SHTF and I was bored and needed to cover something else, I would get an AR.

Pros: Good at a lot of things
Cons: More expensive than other tools which can do jobs better (a shotty will always be better for Close quarters, a bolt action will generally always be better for hunting, a pistol will always be better for CCW).

With that said, I'm still stuck trying to decide between going with a Mossberg shotty or an AR (both is not an option for the purpose of KISS). But even without those, I'm about as covered as I can get right now, so I'm not in a rush.

fatelk
July 16, 2009, 11:52 AM
Just a different perspective. I didn't see where the OP was calling for a ban or anything, and I think he got a lot of valid answers to his question.

I'm not really into AKs or ARs myself; I prefer my old M1s and Mosin Nagants. They are even less practical, but I enjoy them.

A friend of mine is a hunter. To him the only practical use for a firearm is to hunt. He look at ARs and AKs with the same disdain that he does my M1. To him they are all impractical scrap metal, and he can't remotely fathom why anyone would want one. Different perspective, that's all.

Mr.510
July 16, 2009, 11:53 AM
Owning, using, and being proficient with a military-type rifle is a centuries-old American tradition. Some of us might even say it's a good citizen's duty to own one. Plus they are just plain fun! :)

fireman 9731
July 16, 2009, 12:34 PM
I enjoy my AK quite a bit... I have no desire to own an AR though... they just don't do it for me.

Reid73
July 16, 2009, 12:57 PM
A military gun whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply,yet people are willing to pay $2000 for them. If you are that worried about SHTF,buy a generator and 300 gal diesel.My thoughts exactly.

If people like these things, that's up to them. But I don't see the attraction in ugly, generic, plastic 'platforms'.

Fixed for you:

If I was a serious varmint hunter, I would get an AR a heavy-barrelled .22-250 bolt action, with a Harris bipod and a high powered scope.
If I wanted to win 3 gun comps, I would get an AR an FN.
If I had a lot of spare cash laying around, I would get an AR a Krieghoff double rifle.There, that's better! ;)

crebralfix
July 16, 2009, 01:00 PM
These rifles are for fighting.

If you're concerned about "charm", get a fancy rifle with beautiful wood and whatever doodads you like.

benEzra
July 16, 2009, 01:11 PM
If you need to take from somebody else to survive, or armed people want to take from you, then having a better gun is 1, having less gun is 0 gun.
Anyone who seriously has this mentality should NOT buy a gun, IMO. And if the SHTF does occur, I hope people with the leech mentality go jump off a cliff instead of trying to rob the innocent.

Becoming a thug when one can't make ends meet is bad enough, but planning in advance to become a thug is morally repugnant.

RP88
July 16, 2009, 01:34 PM
one good thing about black rifles is that any good brand is a great investment. You buy a 1200-dollar gun, use it to death, and if it still looks new or in great shape, you can still turn around and sell it for 950-1000 bucks easily. Their value holds very well.

They also only cost as much as you want them to. An average AK-47 type rifle, a few mags, and enough ammo can easily cost less than a good hunting bolt-action, a scope for it, and whatever the going rate of .308 and .30-06 is.

Then there is also the fact that they are simple to maintain, can withstand neglect and abuse, and last forever.

They are also versatile. You can take out deer, crazy people, varmints, or just go to the range and enjoy the cheap ammo and shoot all day. You can make an AR do whatever you want, and with a decent mount, you can get an AK to do all that you need.

And then of course there is the fact that there is a hot argument over whether or not people should be able to own them, which just makes us want them even more.

Justin
July 16, 2009, 01:41 PM
If I wanted to win 3 gun comps, I would get an AR an FN.

The FN FAL would move you into shooting He-Man/Heavy Metal class, which would put you up against the guys with tuned AR-10's and M1A's.

The FN rifles in .223 are either extremely expensive, rare, and not nearly as modular as the AR15.

MagnumDweeb
July 16, 2009, 02:09 PM
Before the primaries, I only owned two SKS that I got $150 for both to cover a debt for some money I loaned a friend. And I haven't seen either the money or the friend. I did sell one of the SKSs in the 'panic' but held onto the other one(actually forgot I had it disassembled lying in a storage tote amongst other parts and such). Now the SKS sits in the back of a safe sitting on top of a case of Wolf HP that sits ontop of a case of Gold Bear. I'll eventually get around to opening up the Wolf case and shooting the SKS.

But I got into EBRs starting with the CETME, then I got another one, then I homebrewed one, and then I homebrewed two South African kits on Imbel receivers I had found and one Australian inch kits but I had to buy an inch receiver. Then I got into AKs and bought three of each for three different models, also got VZ52 and Yugo M64 sitting around somewhere. Home brewed one of each of the three models and I've since disassembled them(they are on screw kits so it don't take that long) and they sit on three cases of Wolf FMJ. Got my first AR in 5.45x39 from a friends Dad along with a Winchester 94E and Taurus PT92 for a grand (Dad was coming up on being two months behind on mortgage) (I also ran a small landscaping business, day traded, and barbacked at the time). Since then I've gotten a 20" AR kit from SARCO that went on an Aero Precision receiver (they originally built Colts receivers), and I've got a Stag Arms receiver sitting around. I'd like to get an Olympics Sporting 20" to add but I've got to liquidate a little before that is a reality and I'm far away from that. I got a Saiga .223 16" to repay a debt of $200 (gun store offered the guy $150), but I've yet to buy 30rnd mags for it. Just too much else to get bought first.

And yeah all this happened between now and before the primaries before Hillary announced her intent to run. And it's all been in fun, and I don't plan on letting any of them go, granted I don't really plan on adding anymore as well in all reality as much as I'd like to but I just can't justify it. Granted I bought three Mosin Nagants and over 2.4k rounds of ammo for them but such is surplus, get it before its gone.

The one nice thing I can say about Obama is he motivated me to join the AR and AK club, and I don't plan on ever leaving. I love seeing my students (NRA certified pistol instructor, but I bring a couple rifles out for fun) eyes light up when they shoot off 5.45x39 (.223 is too expensive in my opinion, even though the students pay for it). It's helped me get my FFL guy plenty of business in ARs.

If SHTF I'll disappear either to the Keys here in Florida or I'll be out in West Virginia sight unseen.

jackdanson
July 16, 2009, 02:10 PM
Some folks even have such rifles purely for the sake of competition and don't even have a box of MREs in the closet.

Yeah, I keep them in the basement... they'll keep longer there.

For $2000 I could get 3 aks and an AR. Or 2 ARs and an AK. They aren't really that expensive.. a "mediocre" bolt action will run you $600.. more than an AK, and only slightly less than an AR.

Jimfern
July 16, 2009, 02:19 PM
I got them because they are just plain fun to shoot. I don't have an AK, but I do have an SKS and a Colt AR-15. My brother-in-law felt the same way as you until he shot my Colt. He didn't run off an buy one, but he understands now.

CapnMac
July 16, 2009, 02:45 PM
what is the charm of these guns

Same as what an M-1 has, or a Mk.4 or a Krag and so many others have. It's a mix of utility amd engineering elegance.

ArfinGreebly
July 16, 2009, 02:49 PM
You left out Kel-Tec. Yes, I know, they're not really evil enough to be called "EBR," but they take STANAG mags and eat all flavors of 5.56 NATO and .223 Rem.

The Kel-Tec SU16 series is for those of us who can't (yet) afford to drop a grand on the real thing. Or those who live where "evil" ergonomic grips are outlawed.

Oddly, when I finally can afford an AR, I'll most likely buy it for my youngest daughter, who has a great affinity for them since she qualified "sharpshooter" in the Army. Took her to a local gun shoppe and she slobbered all over a used one, 'cuz it looked "just like" the one she trained with.

Quite aside from all the other reasons for having one, familiarity comes to mind. If that's what you trained with in the .mil then it's possible you'll have some affinity for the thing you already know best.

Besides, everyone knows the actual purpose of the AR is sporting. Right? You all know that?

Come on, I thought everyone knew that:

http://noisyroom.net/pix/Colt-Advert.jpg


:D

FlyinBryan
July 16, 2009, 02:52 PM
i also only own them because i just enjoy shooting sports.

i also reload for the same reason.

FlyinBryan
July 16, 2009, 02:53 PM
wow, 189 bux!!!!!

how old is that ad?

huntman
July 16, 2009, 02:57 PM
these may be the best all round rifle with 22 converstions and multi cal i own a couple and many lowers for futher bans

Paradiddle
July 16, 2009, 03:02 PM
I like shooting my AR - very soft and accurate. I play in 3 gun from time to time and you can't be competitive in that game without an AR platform.

They are somewhat like adult plinkers. I didn't pay $2K for mine - nor would I - I'm not that tacticool.

yosarian
July 16, 2009, 03:32 PM
Like the saying goes "If you have to ask.............................:D

mr.scott
July 16, 2009, 03:49 PM
SO I guess that the OP doesn't like them thar fandagled "Clip" feed death machines and prefers the eligence and oppulence of a finely crafted bolt gun that cost $2000.

Different strokes for different folks.
I have an AR and an AK and neither of them were bought for self defense or SHTF situations. They were bought because I thought they looked cool and I wanted to use them to shoot crap. I have my Mossberg 590 for protection. Besides, if/when SHsTF Shotgun shells will be 100x easier to find than any caliber of rifle or handgun round. We saw how fast Rifle /Pistol ammo dried up after Obama got elected, but shotgun rounds in all flavors were still very abundant.

12131
July 16, 2009, 03:55 PM
Yes, I am sticking a branch in the hornets nest,but what is the charm of these guns? A military gun whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply,yet people are willing to pay $2000 for them. If you are that worried about SHTF,buy a generator and 300 gal diesel.
Come on, now. I'm pretty sure you already know the answer, but by your own admission, you are just here stirring up s**t.:D

benEzra
July 16, 2009, 05:39 PM
wow, 189 bux!!!!!

how old is that ad?
Early to mid 1960's, I think. The AR-15 hit the civilian market around 1961, if I have my dates correct.

SharpsDressedMan
July 16, 2009, 05:44 PM
I trained in the Army one the M16A1. Then they "improved" on it with the A2, but I never did like the weight of the A2.....it just wasn't as handy as the A1, and the little CAR was better. Then I leaned toward the .308 when seeing how much my 55gr bullets were blown off target at 200 on a slightly windy day. The .223 just kept getting less and less desireable as I quit shooting groundhogs. It just seemed bigger cartridges did everything better. I owned an M1A, HK-91, and even fooled with an FAL for awhile. Started liking a quasi-scout rifle (Remington 700/.30-06). It does everything, except fire lesser rounds real fast. When the current mood of society and economic changes caught my attention, I went to my gunsmith brother, and stocked up on some lesser expensive semi-auto carbines, in the form of a U. S. M1 carbine, Ak-74, and AK-47. I have a fair amount of ammo for each, and a fair amount extra for the AK-74 in case I am overwhelmed to go out and blast. They are not first rate battle rifles, but I have a CMP Garand for that. But the little guns can fend off about anything, and I can even arm my daughter and son-in-law if times get tough. For me, the AR-15 has been displaced. There are fine examples fo AR-15 out there, and to those that own and use them, I think you are well armed. For what I needed, and what I had to spend, I think I ended up with maximum return for the buck. How lucky any adversary will be coming up against me will depend on skill, and which gun I have in my hand at the time. Isn't that the way it is, ALL the time?

Guns and more
July 16, 2009, 05:52 PM
If you are that worried about SHTF,buy a generator and 300 gal diesel.
Ask the people who were in New Orleans after Katrina when the police abandoned the city.
No food in the stores, no way to get out, no help coming (for a while).
I'll take an AR over a generator any day.

ArfinGreebly
July 16, 2009, 06:30 PM
wow, 189 bux!!!!!

how old is that ad?

I believe the guy from whom I stole that image told me it was from a sporting magazine published in 1965.

indie
July 16, 2009, 06:34 PM
heres my reason.

Are you following the news with the couple who had 7 or 8 masked armed men storm their home, kill them and leave them dead with their children there and take their safe.

An AK-47 might have been the hero in this situation.

indie
July 16, 2009, 06:35 PM
Reginald Denny should have had an ak47 in the cabin of his truck during the LA riots.

You can look at the news any given night and find a situation that calls for an AK-47

jfh
July 16, 2009, 06:39 PM
FWIW, $189.00 ca. 1965 is about $1276.86 at the end of 2008.

See this link (http://www.westegg.com/inflation/).

That knowledge makes me all the more upset I didn't get in on that S&W deal last year--you know, their basic AR-15 model for $700.00.

Jim H.

RockyMtnTactical
July 16, 2009, 06:49 PM
What's to dislike about them?

They work well, many can be exceptionally accurate, and they are chambered in common calibers that are easy to find.

Every red blooded American should own a rifle or two for the defense of himself, his family, his home, his liberty, his freedom.

Maverick223
July 16, 2009, 07:00 PM
Wow...what's next? Might as well start a "Garands are junk" thread...it should be recieved about as well. :D

BTW what is the record for posts per hour...before getting closed...this has got to be in the top 10. :)

jim in Anchorage
July 16, 2009, 07:36 PM
Just trying to keep it interesting. By the way,for the record I own a mini 14.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 16, 2009, 08:13 PM
buy a generator and 300 gal diesel.

Hmm, maybe I'm missing something here....how you gonna shoot hording food maruaders with a generator? Maybe I've been using mine all wrong.

Reid73
July 16, 2009, 08:14 PM
By the way,for the record I own a mini 14. I do too. It's okay, I guess: serviceable. I haven't fired it in years ... not much point to a .223, really.

one good thing about black rifles is that any good brand is a great investment. You buy a 1200-dollar gun, use it to death, and if it still looks new or in great shape, you can still turn around and sell it for 950-1000 bucks easily. Their value holds very well. That may be true now, but I wonder how long it will remain so after the Obama hysteria dies off. All fads eventually end.

Many people think that 'Beanie Babies' are an excellent "investment"!

And then of course there is the fact that there is a hot argument over whether or not people should be able to own them, which just makes us want them even more.That in a nutshell is the entire attraction for many (most?) purchasers.

You can take out deer, crazy people, varmints, or just go to the range and enjoy the cheap ammo and shoot all day.Just like a .22lr.

Justin, I'm no 'He-Man' (sure don't equate masculinity with firearms), but not being a varmint hunter I have no real use for an FNC or any other .223. "FN" to me means the old 7.62 version ... that's what we always called them in the military, anyway.

H2O MAN
July 16, 2009, 08:15 PM
AR/AK... what is the charm of these guns?

The AR is the ultimate Lego set and the AK has a well earned reputation as the energizer bunny of fire arms.

Everyone should own one or the other or both.

Reid73
July 16, 2009, 08:21 PM
Good analogies! Boys and their toys ... :D

possum
July 16, 2009, 08:29 PM
Yes, I am sticking a branch in the hornets nest,but what is the charm of these guns? A military gun whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply,yet people are willing to pay $2000 for them. If you are that worried about SHTF,buy a generator and 300 gal diesel.
a $2000 ar is not your run of the mill, "mass produced" or "cheaply" made.

as a matter of fact there are more makers than not of the ar series that are good to go, and they can be had for way less than $2000, as a matter of fact a built gun is way way less, and you can have it any way you want it.

as far as ak's the best on the market are Jim Fullers from Rifle dynamics, and they are no where near $2000. i wouldn't even own an ak variant that was that much, unless of course it was an SBR Krink. I have always wanted one of those.

Maverick223
July 16, 2009, 09:20 PM
Many people think that 'Beanie Babies' are an excellent "investment"!They're not? :what: There goes my retirement plan. :uhoh:

tju1973
July 16, 2009, 09:31 PM
2 reasons--

1) You cannot expect the police or other government agencies to protect you 100% of the time.

2) They are fun.

:cool:

ugaarguy
July 16, 2009, 09:48 PM
Just trying to keep it interesting. By the way,for the record I own a mini 14.
Why in the world would anyone in a free state buy a Mini-14? They cost nearly as much as a good mid-tier AR now, use expensive magazines, are nowhere near as accurate as an AR out of the box, and fire the same cartridge. The Mini-14 is now more expensive than an AK, has no better accuracy, isn't as rugged, the magazine argument is the same, and the Mini-14 fires a smaller & more expensive cartridge.


(I know there are reasons some prefer the Mini-14 to an AR or AK, but I'm using your logic. :neener: )

ds92
July 16, 2009, 09:57 PM
my ideal SHTF gun is a break-action single shot 12 gauge.
durable, about 8 moving parts, and versatiltiy and popularity of ammo make it the best choice in my mind.

jim in Anchorage
July 16, 2009, 10:25 PM
Why in the world would anyone in a free state buy a Mini-14? They cost nearly as much as a good mid-tier AR now, use expensive magazines, are nowhere near as accurate as an AR out of the box, and fire the same cartridge. The Mini-14 is now more expensive than an AK, has no better accuracy, isn't as rugged, the magazine argument is the same, and the Mini-14 fires a smaller & more expensive cartridge.


(I know there are reasons some prefer the Mini-14 to an AR or AK, but I'm using your logic.

Because I bought it 15-16 years ago during the first AWB scare when it looked like they were going to ban ANYTHING with a detachable clip.
It just looked more like a real rifle to me with it's one piece wood stock.
Fired it 100x,lost interest[poor accuracy,got sick of chasing spent brass all over the countryside]
I probably haven't fired it in 14 years. Why bother with a .223 when I have a .223 WSSM?

Maverick223
July 16, 2009, 10:33 PM
Why bother with a .223 when I have a .223 WSSM?Why bother shooting something that isn't a whole lot better and costs a ton more to shoot? :)

jim in Anchorage
July 16, 2009, 11:20 PM
As far as cost,I take it you don't reload.A reloaded 223 WSSM may cost me 10 cents more than a 223 rem. As far as not a whole lot better,if you don't consider 600 FPS more with a 55 grain a improvement,I can't help you. I am talking hunting here,not range shooting at paper on known distances

dispatch55126
July 16, 2009, 11:26 PM
Here's my thoughts on the matter.

If you believe that "I am Legend" or Steven Kings "The Stand" will occur in our lifetime, then an AK is what you are looking for. If you believe in a collapse in society but certain infrastructure to remain intact, then an AR is what you are looking for.

If you believe in neither, then get the type that fits you best. I'l completely tear down my AR each and every time, clean it thoroughly and put it away. My SKS (I chose the AR over the AK) gets shot then goes back in the safe. I prefer the ergonomics of the AR and the unquestionable reliability of the east bloc gas piston.

Gardien
July 17, 2009, 12:21 AM
If you believe that "I am Legend" or Steven Kings "The Stand" will occur in our lifetime, then an AK is what you are looking for. If you believe in a collapse in society but certain infrastructure to remain intact, then an AR is what you are looking for.

Phew. I'm glad I chose my ARs.

SHvar
July 17, 2009, 12:23 AM
Whats the charm, an AR is very very accurate, very well designed, easy to shoot, easy to maintain, easy to get parts for, and just feels right when you are shooting them. They have a draw for many reasons for many people.
They can fill multiple functions and in many states you can hunt with them. Maybe if more people had them in our country there would be a whole lot less home invasions, robberies, and other violent crimes.
AKs, well I dont have one, and dont want one, but have shot a number of them. Im sure there are many similar reasons in their owners minds, minus the accuracy, and many other features ARs are known for.
My AR cost me $539 almost new, and the gas piston upper cost me $1130, so between them and all of the accessories on both Ive paid less than $2000.
A family member has a Russian AK in semiauto that was new in the crate covered in cosmoline that cost less than $150 at the time.

Maverick223
July 17, 2009, 12:25 AM
As far as cost,I take it you don't reload.Just getting started...no .223/5.56.
if you don't consider 600 FPS more with a 55 grain a improvementNot good enough to justify the additional cost [when buying factory loads], and you have to remember the .223 is rather limited in usage do to the bullets available making the additional velocity is of little use. I will add that the larger caliber WSSMs would have been great if the had caught on (no factory gun chambers any WSSM anymore IIRC) :)

okespe04
July 17, 2009, 12:26 AM
They are both great in their own ways. For shtf I would take the ak due to superior reliability and acceptable accuracy. But I like to shoot an ar better when at the range.

sarduy
July 17, 2009, 01:20 AM
Yes, I am sticking a branch in the hornets nest,but what is the charm of these guns? A military gun whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply,yet people are willing to pay $2000 for them. If you are that worried about SHTF,buy a generator and 300 gal diesel.

I wonder what are you going to cook with that electric oven...fish? i'm ok with fish but but it's good to have 30 rounds of rock-n-roll to go birds/hog/deer/lions/panthers/tigers/bear/mule/horse/cow/sheep/rabbits... hunting(i'll eat anything that moves). because if SHTF happen i dont think the food in the near supermarkets will last long (1-2 days max) then you have to start hunting on your own for you and/or family, untill you run out of ammo, then you start to reload until you run out of primers/powder....

then and only then, these are the only tool that will keep you alive.

Bow
Knife/Machete
rope
axe

and as much Pain-killer you can find.

http://www.survivaltopics.com/blog-images/bow-made-in-the-field.jpg

jim in Anchorage
July 17, 2009, 02:08 AM
This is a epic thread. Are you already trying the pain killers? Why do I need 30 rounds to kill game?[please don't think I am some anti troll here] Why can't I just use the bolt actions I always have?

Bigfoot
July 17, 2009, 03:31 AM
please don't think I am some anti troll here

Why not?

jim in Anchorage
July 17, 2009, 03:50 AM
So opinions are out? I never proposed banning any thing-I asked a question.

*Personal Attack Removed
-Mgmt.

RP88
July 17, 2009, 04:01 AM
...need...

Fail.

Sorry, but that argument is getting old. Besides, any AR hunter is not going to go out with a milspec rifle mowing down the treeline. Look at a hunting AR sometime and you will see that it fits the purpose of sporting.

That may be true now, but I wonder how long it will remain so after the Obama hysteria dies off. All fads eventually end.

Many people think that 'Beanie Babies' are an excellent "investment"!

They were holding their value BEFORE Obama even came into the picture. Like, back when Yugoslavian M70 AKs were still under $420 before.

I remember $369.99 WASRs selling used for $300. A Colt AR that ran for $1200 wouldn't sell for less than $900 regardless of how old it was.

Yet I'll see hunting rifles and shotguns losing as much as a third or even close to half their value.

Just like a .22lr.

although .22 is on the cheap and plenty, I would not trust it for shooting anything bigger than rabbit.

Justin, I'm no 'He-Man' (sure don't equate masculinity with firearms), but not being a varmint hunter I have no real use for an FNC or any other .223. "FN" to me means the old 7.62 version ... that's what we always called them in the military, anyway.

a .223 doesn't have to be used for only varmint hunting, unless of course you believe that civilian firearms are only meant for acquiring tasty animal flesh and not for much, if any, thing else.

benEzra
July 17, 2009, 08:12 AM
That may be true now, but I wonder how long it will remain so after the Obama hysteria dies off. All fads eventually end.
The bolt-action "fad" lasted over 80 years, and bolt guns still hold their value. It will be the same for more modern designs.

This is a epic thread. Are you already trying the pain killers? Why do I need 30 rounds to kill game?[please don't think I am some anti troll here] Why can't I just use the bolt actions I always have?
If you're hunting with an AR, you're probably using a hunting-caliber upper and a 5-round hunting magazine.

Sure, if you own a bolt-action and like to use it for hunting, no problem! But an AR in a suitable hunting caliber is no less suitable for hunting than a bolt gun, and hunting with an AK and hunting magazine is no different from hunting with a Winchester 94 in .30-30.

Reid73
July 17, 2009, 10:56 AM
a .223 doesn't have to be used for only varmint hunting,True enough. They are okay for short range paper punching.

ArmedBear
July 17, 2009, 11:08 AM
Reid73: LOL That's about the size of it.

I have an AR, an SKS, a .22LR AR, a Mini-14.

In a SHTF situation, I'm not sure if I'd grab any of them.

Nobody thinks about what SHTF means. It means no Wal Mart to go buy some more CLP. It means no store to get some ammo (okay, the S has already HTF in that way).

A semiauto loses a lot of its appeal when you won't want to take a shot you don't absolutely have to.

So why would I consider ditching these guns if the SHTF?

AR: Why haul around a gun that doesn't work when dry or dirty, when it's going to get dry and dirty?

SKS: Same size, weight and utility, and I can have a longer-range rifle, good for hunting, and/or getting the bad guy before he gets to me in the rare instance that's an issue. If the SHTF, there are no hospitals, either. A firefight is the LAST thing you want to get into. WRT hunting, if everyone's hunting for food, you'd better have something that will shoot a good distance, because you're not getting any closer to an animal than 300 yards.

.22LR AR: That's a toy, obviously. For small game hunting, there are better rifles. Lots of them, and all cheaper than this admittedly fun, but frivolous rifle.:)

Mini-14: Of all the guns above, it's the only one I'd really think is worth grabbing (it's light, sleek and compact, stainless, reliable as hell, and doesn't quit when dry or dirty). But what good is a prairie dog round in a rifle that won't shoot tighter groups than a Mini-14?

I can really see the argument for an M1A as a SHTF rifle (and some arguments against it). But all of the above guns have some serious flaws for serious SHTF.

The AR might be good for taking a few of them with you if there's a hostile military takeover of the country, but that's about it. It's a rifle designed for use by GROUPS of soldiers, not a lone survivalist. It's not worthless, obviously, but I don't think it's ideal.

That said, it does make a great competition rifle, a decent varmint gun, a fun target rifle, etc.

jackdanson
July 17, 2009, 12:03 PM
True enough. They are okay for short range paper punching.

Is 600 yards short range?

Frankly I don't give a darn. I own AR's because they are practical for combat and the 2nd amendment has nothing to do with hunting or punching paper. I use it as my "militia rifle". And NO I don't actually think I will ever have to use it in that capacity(at least in my lifetime) but as a society we have the responsibility to assure our freedom by maintaining our own defense.

Reid73
July 17, 2009, 01:12 PM
"Wolverines!" :rolleyes:

spikehunter
July 17, 2009, 01:18 PM
what kind of accuracy could i expect from a cheap ak (wasr or saiga)? good enough to deer hunt with?

SaMx
July 17, 2009, 01:19 PM
splitting guns into arbitrary groups is silly. ARs and AKs aren't some special type of rifle, they're just autoloading rifles.

People buy AR-15s because they tend to be very lightweight and accurate. Most shoot ammo that is relatively cheap and has very low recoil, but lots of more powerful calibers are available, and you can switch calibers and configurations very quickly and easily.

People buy AKs because they are very reliable, durable, and tend to be pretty affordable.

Robert
July 17, 2009, 01:20 PM
Why can't I just use the bolt actions I always have?
Who's stopping you? If you don't want to hunt with or even use an AR, AK, FAL, M1A or any other gas operated semi auto then don't. I am a huge fan of bolt guns, I own more bolts than semi autos, but if I want to hunt with my FAL I will put a 5 round mag in and go hunt. It is my choice.
So opinions are out?
The only person that seem unable to accept that other people have differing opinions and that it is ok for them to differ is you.

jackdanson
July 17, 2009, 01:25 PM
"Wolverines!"


More like "HOLOCAUST". If every Jew had a battle rifle and a willingness to fight it never would have happened. I could list 20 other instances where governments killed thousands, or even millions, of there own people.

But yeah, it's all just fantasy.

stchman
July 17, 2009, 01:26 PM
An AR is actually a fairly advanced rifle.

As far as an AK-47, they were made for uneducated peasants to operate and clean.

I consider AK-47s to be cheap junk rifles and don't know why anyone would pay $600 or more for one when they should be about $150 tops.

With that said I own a Mosin Nagant, but I only paid $115 for it.

jackdanson
July 17, 2009, 01:31 PM
I consider AK-47s to be cheap junk rifles and don't know why anyone would pay $600 or more for one when they should be about $150 tops.

They would be substantially cheaper, but you can't import a complete rifle that isn't built for "sporting" purposes. Building or modifying anything in-country means it costs more.

sarduy
July 17, 2009, 01:31 PM
This is a epic thread. Are you already trying the pain killers? Why do I need 30 rounds to kill game?[please don't think I am some anti troll here] Why can't I just use the bolt actions I always have?

what i meant for pain-killer is some kind of pill that reduces pain, i dont want to hit my head and not have something like tylenol or advil for the headache.

you don't need 30 rounds to kill a game... but if i have to pick in a .223 bolt action or semi 30 rounds gun...i go with the 30 round one, because it would be funny to see you hunting a deer...and right after you take your shot a damn bear pop out of the bushes...:eek:

PLUS... remember you're not alone and in a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI people WILL try to steal your food, supply, gun... you really want to use a bolt action against 5 people armed with semi or full auto? i dont.

Justin
July 17, 2009, 01:34 PM
Justin, I'm no 'He-Man' (sure don't equate masculinity with firearms), but not being a varmint hunter I have no real use for an FNC or any other .223. "FN" to me means the old 7.62 version ... that's what we always called them in the military, anyway.

I sometimes forget that not everyone understands the breakdown in modern competitive shooting. My bad. Ok, basically, Multigun/3 Gun is broken down into divisions meant to appeal to various kinds of shooters. Roughly speaking (divisions will vary from region to region) they break down as follows:

Tactical Iron Sight Division: .223 rifle, 12 ga. semi-auto tube-fed shotgun, semi-auto handgun in 9mm or .40 S&W. All guns must have iron sights, optical sights are not allowed.
Tactical or Limited Division. Same as above, but the competitor is allowed to have a scope on his or her rifle.
Open Division. This division is the F1 racing of competitive multigun shooting. There are almost no limits on the firearms. The rifles will often have multiple optical sights (magnified and dot). There are no magazine capacity limitations, so Beta C magazines are common. The shotgun has no limitations, and will have a red dot sight on it, as well as a setup allowing for very quick reloads, either via the use of TekLoaders or increasingly, magazine-fed shotguns like the Saiga. Pistols have almost no limitations as to capacity, and will have large compensators and a red dot sight.
He-Man/Heavy Metal Division. This is where the old-school shooters play. Rifles must be chambered for at least .30 caliber (almost always .308), pistols must be chambered in a caliber that is no smaller than .40, and shotguns must be manually-operated.

My comment about "He-Man" division was not meant to be a personal statement of masculinity. That name is one of the commonly accepted designations for those wishing to shoot something other than a .223 AR, 9mm pistol, and semi-auto shotgun. By including this division, the competitor does not have to be concerned with the competitive edge he loses to the guys shooting firearms that have less recoil/higher capacity/faster firing rates. That said, there is a level of good-natured ribbing between the people shooting He-Man Division and those shooting in the Tactical divisions.

I probably haven't fired it [mini-14] in 14 years. Why bother with a .223 when I have a .223 WSSM?

If the .223 WSSM does what you need it to do, then by all means that's what you should shoot. However, your initial post in this thread and some of your posts after that seem to show a general ignorance about the AR/AK platforms both with regard to price as well as the various applications for which they are well suited. Shooting your .223 WSSM rifle in a Service Rifle Match or Multigun competition would put you at a competitive disadvantage, just as I would be at a disadvantage if I were to attempt to take an elk or moose with an AR chambered in .223.

The difference between us seems to be that your perception of the AR is that of an overpriced toy that only Walter Mitty types would wish to own, with no understanding of other forms of shooting that are extremely well-suited to platforms such as the AR15.

This is a epic thread. Are you already trying the pain killers? Why do I need 30 rounds to kill game?[please don't think I am some anti troll here] Why can't I just use the bolt actions I always have?

Please, feel free to post a link or quote to anyone else in this thread who has claimed the need to spray and pray for hunting?

Likewise, I don't think anyone here is telling you to ditch your bolt guns. If bolt-action rifles do what you need them to do and appeal to you personally, then by all means, that's what you should shoot. But your initial posts and some since then have shown a lack of understanding of just how useful the AR platform is.

Art Eatman
July 17, 2009, 01:34 PM
If a gun does what YOU want it to do, it's as good as another fella's gun that does what HE wants it to do.

The converse holds true, as well...

Justin
July 17, 2009, 02:06 PM
A problem arises, however, when you willfully fail to understand why someone else's choice might be the right thing for them, even if it's not the right thing for you.

benEzra
July 17, 2009, 02:08 PM
what kind of accuracy could i expect from a cheap ak (wasr or saiga)? good enough to deer hunt with?
4 MOA, perhaps a little better, assuming decent ammunition. The main limitation is the fact that, like .30-30, 7.62x39mm is a relatively low velocity cartridge and loses what velocity it has fairly rapidly, so that it loses the ability to humanely kill a deer around 125 yards or so. Around here (pine woods of eastern NC), where a lot of shots on deer will be 50-100 yards, an AK would be fine. If you're looking at 100-200 yard shots, an AR in 6.8mm Remington or .30 RAR would be a better choice, though.

Optics do help as well, not only with shot placement but with shot precision; the AK is an easy rifle to shoot badly due to the short sight radius. But it is not nearly as inherently inaccurate as some of its detractors make it out to be.

As far as an AK-47, they were made for uneducated peasants to operate and clean.
No, they weren't. That's a chest-beating Western myth. The New Soviet Man was a lot poorer than his Western counterpart, but uneducated he was not, and the USSR was on average more urban than 1950's America.

I consider AK-47s to be cheap junk rifles and don't know why anyone would pay $600 or more for one when they should be about $150 tops.
Then it is clear you have not had much quality experience with them. An AK is functionally identical to a Ruger Mini Thirty and more durable; what's MSRP on a Mini Thirty?

DMK
July 17, 2009, 02:12 PM
Quote:
"one good thing about black rifles is that any good brand is a great investment. You buy a 1200-dollar gun, use it to death, and if it still looks new or in great shape, you can still turn around and sell it for 950-1000 bucks easily. Their value holds very well."


That may be true now, but I wonder how long it will remain so after the Obama hysteria dies off. All fads eventually end.

Many people think that 'Beanie Babies' are an excellent "investment"!

Let's see. Colt was selling AR-15s to civilians starting in the mid-60s at least. They continued to sell them throughout the 70s and 80s. They sold so well that new companies started to produce them, such as DPMS and Bushmaster. ARs sales were strong both during and after the AWB in '94-2004. Today, more and companies make them every year it seems including mainstream "hunting rifle" firms like Ruger and Remington.

Yea, ARs are a fad just like the Internet and cell phones.

RP88
July 17, 2009, 02:13 PM
what kind of accuracy could i expect from a cheap ak (wasr or saiga)? good enough to deer hunt with?

with good ammo, you MAY get a a nice Saiga capable of 2-3 MoA accuracy. The average will be between 3-5 moa with any AK platform. Still plenty enough to take a deer out to 200 yards.

Uncle Mike
July 17, 2009, 02:22 PM
If the S*it really does HTF someday you will finally understand.

Someone, (not just the last poster), needs to get a life... what kind of degradation of society are you mall ninjas dreaming about...? WAY too much TV watching... guys!

The U.S. is going to let its lands be invaded...not! We Do have the baddest, kick ass military in the world... they're gonna need mall ninja civie help...right!

Oh, I know... we are going to get into a brawl with our own military... that's a good one... even if we did, do you think for one nano second that YOU are going to be able to do anything about it...?

The first shot that rings out would probably be met with some kind of mountain leveling munitions from an air assault. Pretty boy mall ninja and his souped up super sniper or the black clad AK/AR toting killem'all guy will more than likely be a nice neat pile of smoldering ashes beside the warped and chard remains of his $2000 super assaulter.

How's that...?

Shear_stress
July 17, 2009, 03:40 PM
Let's see. Colt was selling AR-15s to civilians starting in the mid-60s at least. They continued to sell them throughout the 70s and 80s. They sold so well that new companies started to produce them, such as DPMS and Bushmaster. ARs sales were strong both during and after the AWB in '94-2004. Today, more and companies make them every year it seems including mainstream "hunting rifle" firms like Ruger and Remington.

Yea, ARs are a fad just like the Internet and cell phones.

Here's my Colt SP1 from 1968. Thank goodness that whole AR thing went the way of the Nehru jacket and the Johnson Administration.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF0097_small.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSCF0100_small1.jpg

SharpsDressedMan
July 17, 2009, 04:53 PM
This might be a good question for this thread: Does anyone know of a gun vs. gun torture test between the AK and the AR? That would be one really good reason for owning one over the other. Or a even a "clean rifle, rounds before stoppage" test, leaving out the harsh envoronments, sand, mud, water, ice, etc. I have chosen the AK platform for "go to" emergency guns, but my choice was just based on secondhand info that the AK is more reliable.

Maverick223
July 17, 2009, 06:11 PM
Does anyone know of a gun vs. gun torture test between the AK and the AR?Vietnam? A more recent one was performed with upgraded models in Iraq, but it included sand and other debris. :D

TheFallGuy
July 17, 2009, 07:12 PM
I like my AR15 because it is rugged, reliable, accurate, capable of taking lots of game, fun, light and easy to carry. They are also highly adaptable to various calibers and objectives.

Just remember that a lot of hunting rifle actions come from old military rifles. Heck, less then a hundred years ago bolt actions were considered military assault weapons. They weren't considered very sporting but now they are the norm for all game pretty much every where in the world.

BMF500
July 17, 2009, 07:19 PM
There is a clip on youtube of a guy shooting an SKS until the fore stock catches on fire and the weapon is too hot to hold. But the gun was still ready.....

SharpsDressedMan
July 17, 2009, 09:25 PM
So Maverick223, which rifle won out? :D That's one of the reasons I opted for the AK. Several of my gun associates who served in the Nam came to PREFER the AK over any AR (and some had the XM-177 as LRRP's).

Maverick223
July 17, 2009, 10:35 PM
I hate to say it but I am not a fan of the AK, it simply has reliability from the poor tolerances built into it; furthermore, it has a poor fit and finish. Not to say that it is a bad gun, IMO it is a poor choice due to it's exorbitant price (in todays market). I will say that the AR is not my favorite "black gun" either. Both have advantages (a friend of mine often uses a AK for it's ability to blend in while in Afghanistan), whilst the AR has become the grown man's Lego set (I like the large caliber availability and quick conversions the platform offers). Personally I prefer the SA-80 family or possibly the Tavor...both have the features that I like in a semi-auto medium caliber rifle. :)

hso
July 17, 2009, 10:49 PM
Why can't I just use the bolt actions I always have?

No one here has disparaged your choice even though you started out doing that for the AR and AK shooters. Trying to play the victim when no on has tried to victimize you is not going to work very well here.

GRIZ22
July 17, 2009, 10:59 PM
A military gun whose very existence is because it can be mass produced cheaply

AK is designed to be cheap. AR is innovative (for its time) use of materials.

Military rifles have always been desired by civilian shooters. Trap Door Springfield, 1903, M1, etc.

jim in Anchorage
July 17, 2009, 11:00 PM
[QUOTEyou r][ wonder what are you going to cook with that electric oven...fish? i'm ok with fish but but it's good to have 30 rounds of rock-n-roll to go birds/hog/deer/lions/panthers/tigers/bear/mule/horse/cow/sheep/rabbits... hunting(i'll eat anything that moves). because if SHTF happen i dont think the food in the near supermarkets will last long (1-2 days max) then you have to start hunting on your own for you and/or family, untill you run out of ammo, then you start to reload until un out of primers/powder/QUOTE]

I an REALLY getting tired of that bolt action remark being taken out of context. THIS is what I was replying to.

SuperNaut
July 17, 2009, 11:09 PM
I have lost IQ points reading this thread.

Deus Machina
July 17, 2009, 11:27 PM
I'm still a fan of the AK, from an engineering standpoint--KISS.

Of course it has its bad points, like the sights, and it's 'meh' points, like the magazine latch. And you won't hear me insult an AR any more than an AK.

But, IMHO, the AR may be too good to be a battle rifle. They're great guns, but in mud and dirt and sand and grime you need loose tolerances and open spaces inside for come whatever may.

My biggest gripe with the AR is the direct impingement system, though. I'm a fan of gas-piston rifles, which is why I'm a fan of the AK. An AR gets all the gook that comes from military ammo everywhere, and however much an AK does, you pretty much have only one failure point for the cocking system there--you'd have to 100% plug the gas vent.

Really, spend as much to build an AK (maybe not in the current gouging prices) as your average AR costs to build, and you'd have a gun that would outshoot most stuff in a monte carlo stock.

But for SHTF, I'd prefer either over a grill (I can track down a barrel and some wood, after all) and think an AR would do you just fine in your general Katrina situation even if an AK might be better. For fighting zombies alone, when you're not sure if you could stop and run a brush through it, I'll bring along Ivan.

okespe04
July 17, 2009, 11:27 PM
Someone, (not just the last poster), needs to get a life... what kind of degradation of society are you mall ninjas dreaming about...? WAY too much TV watching... guys!

The U.S. is going to let its lands be invaded...not! We Do have the baddest, kick ass military in the world... they're gonna need mall ninja civie help...right!

Oh, I know... we are going to get into a brawl with our own military... that's a good one... even if we did, do you think for one nano second that YOU are going to be able to do anything about it...?

The first shot that rings out would probably be met with some kind of mountain leveling munitions from an air assault. Pretty boy mall ninja and his souped up super sniper or the black clad AK/AR toting killem'all guy will more than likely be a nice neat pile of smoldering ashes beside the warped and chard remains of his $2000 super assaulter.

How's that...?

I'm going to start a storm here but for some time now one of the more powerful military forces has proven to be a bunch of ill equipped people with ak-47s, improvised explosives and crafty booby traps. I bet a bunch of ill equipped armed American citizens could be a pretty serious force too.

sarduy
July 18, 2009, 12:06 AM
I an REALLY getting tired of that bolt action remark being taken out of context. THIS is what I was replying to.

jim in Anchorage, the bolt remark as you call it, is no more than my opinion, dont get me wrong, the bolt action is a fine weapon system, in fact i own 3 bolt action rifles and love them all, even looking at another bolt action.

when i said "but it's good to have 30 rounds of rock-n-roll to go" i didn't meant to trash the bolt action in any way and i didn't make any reference for AR or AK i said 30 rounds... how many guns hold 30 rounds? way too many! even some pistols hold 30 rounds from the factory and others with aftermarket magazine.

"again this is my opinion"

if a SHTF or TEOTWAWKI happen i will carry!

1. Bolt action rifle :D
2. 30 rounds Rifle attached to myself by a cord:rolleyes:
3. 32 round Pistol attached to myself by a cord:evil: / 8 round pistol ;)
4. a machete

Hammerhead6814
July 18, 2009, 01:04 AM
I to am confused why so many people like the AK and AR. Chiefly because I finally shot a FAL awhile back and now I think AR and AK owners must be crazy to shoot anything else :D .

jim in Anchorage
July 19, 2009, 06:17 AM
Thanks for all the responses good and negative.I just got a Chance to read them all,and this is like geting a $100 book for free.

Art Eatman
July 19, 2009, 12:27 PM
Five pages is enough for the umpteenth iteration of this discussion.

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