Class 3 weapon


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jgh4445
July 16, 2009, 01:41 PM
If a class 3 weapon was just discovered in an estate, and it was determined to be a "bring back" from either the Korean Conflict or WWII, and it has never been registered or otherwise seen the light of day, is there a legal way for a class 3 license holder to own it?

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HKUSP45C
July 16, 2009, 01:57 PM
To the best of my knowledge, there is not.

If it wasn't in the NFRTR before the books were closed it is an illegal NFA item.

Contact a lawyer who is versed in Title II firearms and their disposition and have them deal with it. He or she may be able to broker a deal wherein the firearm is given to a "regulated and approved" entity to hold, such as a museum. At worst the attorney can turn it over to the authorities in a proper mannert and keep you out of the "clink."

Do NOT show up to the local PD with the gun in tow and ask them what you should do with it. If you have retained an attorney your are protected, for the most part, by the client privledge. If you show up to the Sheriff's office you're holding a federally regulated piece of equipment that could, conceivably, land you in ClubFed longer than you'd care to be there (food and cable aside).

I could be wrong (obviously, I don't think I am) and I will watch with great interest as smarter folks than I chime in.

ETA: Not to add insult to injury but, the Korean Conflict (War) ended in ~53 if my memory serves me correctly. If it was a bring back I'm curious why it wasn't registered during the NFRTR Amnesty of '68 ... seems like a darn shame if that's the case.

kingpin008
July 16, 2009, 01:58 PM
I'm not an expert by any means, but I'm pretty sure that the firearm in question is legally considered contraband at this point.

The options are pretty slim - either contact a lawyer and arrange it so that it is allowed to be donated to a museum or archive, "donate" it to the ATF which will probably destroy it, or row your boat way out onto the lake and commit the newly-discovered piece of history to the deep.

In short, there's really no way to make it a legally-owned personal piece.

TexasRifleman
July 16, 2009, 02:04 PM
No there is currently no way to get it done.

Bills have been introduced in Congress a few times over the last decades to allow for an amnesty for things like this but the usual suspects keep voting it down.

As more and more vets pass away we'll see an uptick in these at least until the last of the WWII and Korea vets are gone.

A real shame.

DO NOT speak to anyone about the gun, DO NOT bring it out in the daylight.

Talk to an attorney and no one else, but there is little that can be done.

Even attempts to give these things to museums have failed in some cases.

dirt_j00
July 16, 2009, 02:09 PM
Anyone know the maximum penalties for being found in possession of an unregistered NFA-item? For the OP's benefit.

freakshow10mm
July 16, 2009, 02:11 PM
Pretty sure it's 10 years.

TexasRifleman
July 16, 2009, 02:12 PM
Anyone know the maximum penalties for being fond in possession of an unregistered NFA-item? For the OP's benefit.

10 years, $10,000 seems to be the standard, though NFA violations can go as high as $100,000 fine if they get you for willful violation of tax laws (NFA is a tax law).

Hence my suggestion to speak to no one except an attorney.

nalioth
July 16, 2009, 02:19 PM
Anyone know the maximum penalties for being fond in possession of an unregistered NFA-item? For the OP's benefit.
10 years, $10,000 seems to be the standard, though NFA violations can go as high as $100,000 fine if they get you for willful violation of tax laws (NFA is a tax law).

Hence my suggestion to speak to no one except an attorney.

There are no maximums.

TexasRifleman
July 16, 2009, 02:24 PM
There are no maximums.

You are right. I misread the post. I thought he was asking minimums.

dirt_j00
July 16, 2009, 02:32 PM
Thanks for the info.

Grey54956
July 16, 2009, 02:47 PM
That thing is dangerous like plutonium, maybe worse.

The best way to dispose of plutonium is to bury it deep.

Maybe the best way to dispose of that this is to bury it deep and never speak of it again. Let sleeping dogs lie.

Prince Yamato
July 16, 2009, 03:02 PM
Contact an attorney for advice. You will probably then have to contact that ATF and surrender the weapon. You're not going to get arrested for that. You are currently doing exactly what the ATF recommends. You're seeking out the required info and you have no desire to violate the law. Do not worry, just realize that the weapon will have to be surrendered.

Clermont
July 16, 2009, 03:18 PM
What about cutting the stripped receiver into two or three pieces? Wouldn't this make it a legal parts kit, you would be able to possess as a keepsake?

freakshow10mm
July 16, 2009, 03:25 PM
Or destroying evidence. Depends on how they want to slice it.

Tully M. Pick
July 16, 2009, 03:26 PM
What firearm?

kingpin008
July 16, 2009, 03:55 PM
What about cutting the stripped receiver into two or three pieces? Wouldn't this make it a legal parts kit, you would be able to possess as a keepsake?

No. In order to be considered destroyed, it has to be done in such a way that a significant percentage of metal (either 30 or 50 percent, if memory serves) must be permanently removed.

Even if you were to cut it in such a way as to meet the requirements, as Freakshow mentioned, it could be argued by the ATF that you were attempting to destroy evidence. They've been known to play fast-and-loose with the letter of the law before, so it's probably not something worth risking, especially if all you'll be left with in the end anyway is useless hunks of metal.

huntman
July 16, 2009, 04:13 PM
hide gun and dont tell anyone ........... not even your kids or wife .......pcv and a shovel

JustinW
July 16, 2009, 04:43 PM
I'm no expert on this and this is just hearsay and rumors as far as I'm concerned but I've heard it said that if it was a war bring back and the individual got authorization (or whatever is/was required) to bring it back that it could be argued that the authorization counts as being registered and thus legal. (If you try to pursue this route I'd assume you'd need proof that the government knows that it was brought back and that it was done so correctly/legally. (i.e. paperwork))

But as other have said in this situation the new owner is best served by hiring an attorney to do the work and keep quiet about it.

TexasRifleman
July 16, 2009, 04:47 PM
I'm no expert on this and this is just hearsay and rumors as far as I'm concerned but I've heard it said that if it was a war bring back and the individual got authorization (or whatever is/was required) to bring it back that it could be argued that the authorization counts as being registered and thus legal

I know that argument has been tried but I don't believe that it has been successful post-Hughes Amendment.

Hughes was very clear that the NFA database is closed after May of 1986 and left no exceptions.

dirt_j00
July 16, 2009, 04:52 PM
Is it possible that the NFA item was in fact registered at some point (even possibly to an estate), but the owner's paperwork was misplaced or the owner never told their heirs about the gun? It seems this proposed situation is a possibility for the OP...

I guess the ATF could check to see if the gun was registered, but that would require "showing your hand".

Dan Forrester
July 16, 2009, 05:04 PM
No point in talking to an attorney. You have no options at this point. Oil it up real well, pack it up in some PVC pipe and bury it. Hopefully one day you will be able to legally register it again.

Dan

Clermont
July 16, 2009, 05:41 PM
That WWII/Korean War bring back would have had to been registered during the amnesty when the Gun Control Act of 1968 went into effect. If it wasn't, it became contraband, no chance of being registered unless there's another amnesty. There hasn't been another amnesty in forty one years.

vicdotcom
July 16, 2009, 05:51 PM
If it was a bring back I'm curious why it wasn't registered during the NFRTR Amnesty of '68 ... seems like a darn shame if that's the case. Maybe they thought it was a scam like those "turn a gun in" programs. Or they just didn't wan "THE MAN" to know about it. I mean really, if they passed a "register your AR/AK amnesty" law today, you know that there will always be a bunch of people that will not register.

D94R
July 16, 2009, 07:20 PM
Hang it from your wall in your "man room". Never shoot it. Never tell anyone the extreme details. Never let anyone take it down and see it. Never answer picky questions about it. Have this thread deleted.

Then, enjoy it for what it is and hope that one day you can enjoy that piece of history outside of secrecy.

HKUSP45C
July 16, 2009, 09:44 PM
I mean really, if they passed a "register your AR/AK amnesty" law today, you know that there will always be a bunch of people that will not register.

You're comparing apples to doorknobs. In '68 the NFA had been settled law for 30+ years. There existed legal MGs and more were being produced for "Joe Six-Pack" every day. You could still go buy M16s, MACs, Reislings, ect. and just run through the paperwork, pay the stamp tax and pick up your MG in a few weeks.

Further, 30 years previous the government said "come in and register your full autos and we won't arrest you or take them away." Fast forward 30 years and everyone still has their machine guns AND the ATF is just asking anyone with one that happened to appear in the last 30 years to bring it in to get it on the books.

So, even if you had illegally stashed a "bring back" and you payed any attention to politics at all (which you might if you had an illegal machine gun under your bed) you just had to march on down, pay your tax and get your name and gun registered in the NFRTR. No fuss, no muss, no JBTs kicking down your door a week later to stomp your puppy, snipe your wife, burn down your church and home .... nothing. It took the ATF another 30 years to get around to those things :)

All MGs had to be registered anyway to be legal AND the ATF gave anyone who was breaking the law the opportunity to "come clean."

In your AR-15 scenario none of the provisions of taxing and registration are in place. So, there are no similarities at all.

Though I do agree with you on one point. If the Fed Gov said tomorrow that all guns required registration and a tax and we should bring them down to pay it and get signed up there might be a TREMENDOUS spike in the number of boating accidents in the preceding months that were never reported to authorities until just about that time :)

Honestly, I take your point, it just makes me sick to think that over the course of the next 10 years how many machineguns we're going to lose as the greatest generation go on to their warrior's reward. Particularly when, in retrospect, the fedgov never did come after those NFA items they folded into the amnesty.

Hindsight ... such a useful tool.

ETA:
Hang it from your wall in your "man room". Never shoot it. Never tell anyone the extreme details. Never let anyone take it down and see it. Never answer picky questions about it. Have this thread deleted.

Then, enjoy it for what it is and hope that one day you can enjoy that piece of history outside of secrecy.
To the OP:
IF you choose to take this advice please, please, pretty please with sugar on top, consider very carefully that will always be one mishap, slipped word or wrong-door no-knock away from being a federal felon with a minimum sentence of 10years in ClubFed and a $10,000 fine .... minimum.

I strongly suggest you look into your heart and think about the ramifications of the actions presented above.

Whether or not the law is just or right it is, currently, the law. Civil disobedience is one thing when it's a few months in jail for greater moral good. It's entirely a different matter when you're looking at 10 years for the privledge of keeping a piece of equipment a secret for the rest of your tenure on this rock. Besides, then YOUR family has to figure out what to do with it.

Get a lawyer, do whatever he says is your best shot at staying out of dutch with the alphabet boys.

jgh4445
July 17, 2009, 10:08 AM
Thanks for all the replies. The answers confirm my suspicions. Thank goodness the weapon is not mine nor have I ever even seen it. Don't want to. It belongs to an acquaintance whos Dad just passed away and it was found in one of his gun safes.
The weapon is an M-2 Carbine. My friend has no idea how his Dad came into possession of it, but does remember his Dad telling him, years and years ago that he had it and it could never be brought out of the safe nor shown to anyone as it was not registered. My advice to him had to do with PVC and an oil rag. I also suggested a trip to the ocean as a solution.

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