[feedthehogs]

The history channel had a story on about Charles Whitman, the ex Marine who went nuts on Aug 1, 1966 and started shooting from the University of Texas Tower killing 14 people and wounding more.

The chief of police made a very profound statement after the shootings.

"With the condition of the world today, this could have happened anywhere".

He clearly recognized this as a social/mental issue and not a gun issue.

To bad they don’t have the same insight today.

[Dave R]

Amen. It has happened in other countries, too. Terribly sad.

[El Tejon]

I checked out the tower earlier this spring. Could not go up to the top, but I stood where most of the victims were hit. Fine shooting especially after the first shot.

The airport in Austin sells the tower as a postcard!!!:eek:

[Holly76201]

Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys {their name, not mine for them} had a most excellent song about Whitman.
I also remember a line from Full Metal Jacket. Lee Ermy is informing his recruits that "Charles Whitman and Lee Harvey Oswald, possibly two of the most infamous and accurate snipers of this century, were Marine Riflemen"
Just my ramblings for today,
Holly

[critter]

DO NOT forget the civilians who, that day, went home, retreived their hunting rifles and returned EFFECTIVE fire and thereby saved MANY lives. The police did not have rifles that were effective at that range. Nobody seems to talk much about the civilian heroes that day.

[Chupacabra]

Caught the show during my lunch break today. It was a great documentary up until the part where the narration tried to make it a gun issue instead of a crazy guy issue. I'm glad the Police Chief back then didn't see it that way.

[Madmardig0n]

I met Ray Martinez, one of the men who went up in to the tower and shot Whitman. He's a really cool guy.

I hope they show the program again, because I didn't get to see it.

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

The ROTC Commander on the University of Texas campus offered the ROTC battalion and their field piece as a means to blow Whitman from the tower.

The top of the tower is still intact because cooler heads prevailed, but it was discussed at the time. The ROTC is no longer at UT from my information.

No wonder I root for Texas A&M.

Gig'em.

Regards,
Rabbit.

[Guy L Johnson]

Here is the inital inventory report of what he had in his car and person

[jar]

There were many, many heros that day. In particular, all the unnamed folk who ran out under fire and helped the wounded to safety.

Those that weren't alive during the period from 1950 -1980 can not imagine just how crazy things really were.

[Double Naught Spy]

El Tejon said, "Fine shooting especially after the first shot.


I assume that statement was in regard to the fact that people on the ground radically changed their normal behavior and fled in all directions. Actually, many people were shot before it was determined as to what was going on and where the shots originated. Additionally, Whitman fired in several directions. People off in the distance and on opposite sides of the tower were still surprised well into the rampage. Distance from the tower and the tower and administrative building served to block information flow to side as to what was happening on the other side.

I am not sure how effective the hunter's (with hunting rifles) shooting was on the situation. Given the wall around the tower's catwalk and the angle of the shots being made from the ground, Whitman presented only a minimal target to hit and he apparently knew it. The folks on the ground would shoot toward the top of the tower whenever they saw his rifle over the catwalk wall. They were not so much able to shoot at him, just toward his immediate vicinity. Whitman managed to coninue hitting victims on the ground long after the hunters tried to do their part to stop him.

Not only did the wall help protect him, but when fire was directed toward him, he switched to shooting out through the rain gutter channels in the wall. This made him virtually impossible to hit as the gutters were only a few inches in size.

To be able to hit Whitman, the shooters one the ground would have needed to exceed Whitman's abilities, which they did not. Whitman hit folks who were only slightly exposed (between 2 pillars six inches apart, as head peeked around corners, and even those way off in the distance [furthest hit was 500 yards and that was after his location was under heavy fire.

For more information, see http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial/whitman/

[BluesBear]

For those who weren't around at that time, the shock of "The Tower" was equaled only by the murder of John Kennedy and the Attack of 9-11. :(

I recall the general feeling afterwards was something like "How could a MAN do such a thing?" :cuss:

Nowadays it would be blamed on the gun. :barf:



Society, how the mighty have fallen.

[Travis McGee]

I always read that the Texas Tower incident was the trigger for the creation of the modern SWAT team. I think the LAPD SWAT was first. They realised that this type of situation would requre more than just beat cops with riot shotguns.

[LeonCarr]

To this day, if you look at the tower, just under the observation deck, with a pair of binoculars, you can see the pock marks from the bullets that were being shot at Whitman.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

[Hkmp5sd]

I think the LAPD SWAT was first.

The Whitman shooting occured in 1966. In LA, the department began specialized training of officers in the late 60s. They remained patrol officers and used only when needed. SWAT officially began in 1971 when LEOs were assigned to SWAT as their primary duty.

There was a 1975 movie about the incident called The Deadly Tower starring Kurt Russell which, in true Hollywood fashion, had to get an anti-gun message inserted. In one scene, local civilians are shooting at Whitman with their hunting rifles. The cops on the scene didn't have long guns in their patrol cars that could reach the top of the tower (the same thing bit LAPD decades later in the North Hollywood Shootout). This did occur and saved lives by keeping Whitman's head down or forcing him to the other side of the tower so the wounded could be rescued. One of the cops states the RKBA is a good thing, otherwise, these civilians wouldn't have guns and be able to help out. A news reporter responds with the comment it is also the reason Whitman had guns in the first place.

[Futo Inu]

I wonder if Whitman killed anyone AFTER the contemplation of the field artillery piece from the ROTC, and how long it would have taken to deploy and fire it. Because it's not a bad idea at all - the tower can be rebuilt. On second thought, there's the danger of a miss, in which case, what goes up must come down - not good.

[Joe Demko]

Blowing the top of the tower off would also have raised the concern about where the bits of the tower would land.
I remember reading somewhere about an armed whackjob in New Orleans going on a similar rampage that was ended by having an armed military chopper hose him down with M-60 fire. Wonder how they got around the whole posse commitatus thing for that?

[cordex]

I remember reading somewhere about an armed whackjob in New Orleans going on a similar rampage that was ended by having an armed military chopper hose him down with M-60 fire. Wonder how they got around the whole posse commitatus thing for that?
Just say he was carrying or manufacturing drugs. Then they'll give 'em just about anything short of a tactical nuclear strike without having to worry about posse commitatus.

[rock jock]

Wasn't our own Art of THR at the scene when it happened?

[El Tejon]

00, yes, hitting people between concrete posts at hundreds of yards is very fine shooting indeed. As you say, he continued to connect even after people realized what was transpiring.

Hitting at those ranges and his clever use of the tower's design is fine shooting to me. Of course, I am the worst shot on the Internet and have never been a countersniper assigned to SEEL Team 37.5 so my comments may be without merit.:D

[Balog]

Good Lord. I've heard the incident referred to, but I had no idea it was so bad. That was one sick puppy. I suppose it's good he didn't have an M1-C or D Garand.

[sw442642]

There is a good book on the incident:

A Sniper in the Tower by Lavergne

About the civilian response. Some of the shots did come close. It was also reported that after the civilians responded, Whitman didn't shoot anyone else.

The most chilling shooting in the book was an idiot who told his girlfriend to come out and look. He said they were too far away to get hit. He peeked through a concrete fence and Whitman shot him in the mouth.

[Art Eatman]

Aw, yeah, I wuz there.

About the longest hit I know of was an Austin City Electric Department guy, who was standing out in a street, gawking. Roughly 420 yards; right shirt pocket. I ran and got an ambulance, but he was DOA.

Civilian rifle fire was alleged by Col. Garrison, head of DPS, to have been the reason for Whitman's "retreat" to the NW corner of the observation deck. This left the only access door (on the south face) available to the "men of the moment" who got Whitman.

I've posted at length at TFL and I think maybe here but earlier in the year. Do a search on my name + Charles Whitman...

Art

[Travis McGee]

Art Eatman: WOW! I'll bet that's not a day you easily forget!

[synoptic]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I remember reading somewhere about an armed whackjob in New Orleans going on a similar rampage that was ended by having an armed military chopper hose him down with M-60 fire. Wonder how they got around the whole posse commitatus thing for that?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just say he was carrying or manufacturing drugs. Then they'll give 'em just about anything short of a tactical nuclear strike without having to worry about posse commitatus.

I believe National Guard can still operate within the U.S.

Secondly, after the Marines shot that 12 year old on the Texas border, counter drug operations were not allowed to be conducted by the military inside the U.S. prior to that most of the operations were observation and such, when someone needed arresting they called in the border patrol. They carried live ammo because the drugrunners did and only used it when threatened. I believe helicopter observation missions are still allowed.

[CMcDermott]

The tone of references to Whitman in this thread is interesting - "Whack job", "crazy man", comparisons to the LA bank robbers.
Whitman had an undiagnosed brain tumor, and had been seeing a shrink because the medical doctors couldn't find anything wrong with him physically. Back then people wondered how someone could do something like this, yet today we seem to accept that this is "normal abnormal" behavior. A good CAT scan could have prevented the Tower shooting, yet today we really have no way to prevent these tradgedies from happening.

[El Tejon]

Mark "Mata" Essex was the name of the New Orleans shooter.

[willyjixx]

posse commitatus.

what does that mean?

[auschip]

The top of the tower is still intact because cooler heads prevailed, but it was discussed at the time. The ROTC is no longer at UT from my information.

No wonder I root for Texas A&M.

Gig'em.


Incorrect, UT still has ROTC.

http://www.utexas.edu/depts/arotc/homepage1.htm

[Hkmp5sd]

what does that mean? (posse commitatus)

It's the 1878 law that prohibits using the military for law enforcement purposes in the US.

[tyme]

Whitman had an undiagnosed brain tumor, and had been seeing a shrink because the medical doctors couldn't find anything wrong with him physically.
But there's disagreement about whether the brain tumor "made" him do it.

[Double Naught Spy]

ET, it was good shooting, period. My point was more that a lot of folks didn't realize what was going on after things started and he managed to ping them fairly easily. It is sort of amazing the folks that thought they were safe or were unlikely to get hit and managed to get hit, such as the electrician and people peering around corners.

Whitman didn't need a Garand. He did fine with a 6 mm.

tyme is right about the disagreement on whether the brain tumor had anything to do with Whitman's issues. I am surprised there was much left after he was shot in the head at close range. The tumor could have affected his behavior. Then again, there are lots of people who do this sort of thing who don't have problems such as tumors and bunches of people who get tumors who don't become murders. The tumor could have been a problem. Then again, he could have had any other of a number of neurochemical embalances that could have adversely affected his behavior as well as having a tumor.

[Art Eatman]

Whitman's first shooting was toward the south mall of the tower. He used the M1 Carbine to shoot into the fairly large number of students there during the change of class. After the relatively easy targets had gotten out of sight, he shifted to the 6mm and started in on the longer-range people.

People heard about it on their radios and drove over to campus to look. Some got shot.

Evolution works.

Art

[cordex]

Evolution works.
You're just saying that because you're still here.
*grin*

[vitiaz]

"That was one sick puppy."

Didn't they find out afterwards that Whitman had a brain tumor?

[ojibweindian]

My dad was his corpsman when they were in the Marines. According to my dad, Whitman was an okay guy, kinda quiet, got into a lot of fights.

One story he told me:

Dad was asleep in his rack one Friday night, and about 0230 or so, Whitman comes in and wakes him up complaining of stomach pain. Dad asks Whitman to move his hands away from his stomacn so that he could get a better look, and as Whitman did, his guts started falling out. Whitman had been in a bar fight and someone cut him pretty bad.

Another interesting thing: Dad sent him to the base hospital several times for severe headaches. Dad always thought that the Bell Tower incident would never had happened if the MDs at the hospital would have found the tumor....

[Art Eatman]

Dredging out of memory of news articles about Whitman and the UT student medical center:

The doctor there was elderly. Whitman had gone there more than once, complaining of headaches. All he ever got was sympathy and aspirin. No suggestion of further diagnosis at some specialty clinic...

Art

[Double Naught Spy]

People get headaches. Whitman got headaches. There is nothing remarkable about that. Some people get lots of headaches and don't have tumors or extreme mental stability issues. Headaches could be a relevant issue or simply a red herring, sort of like the white box truck with the DC sniper case. Sure enough, white box trucks were seen at and around shooting incidents. Come to find out, there were thousands of white box trucks in the DC area. The associations with the shootings was completely coincidence.

While some people did show up to campus when they heard there was a shooting and so did get shot, that is hardly a case for evolution working. Evolution will have only worked if those folks had NOT passed on genetic material yet. Correction, evolution does not work on the individual level, but population level. One or a few individuals failing to pass on their genetic material will have virtually no impact on a large population like humans.

[Hkmp5sd]

Another factor in the medical side of this is that 40 years ago, there was a different ethic involving doctors. Unlike today, where doctors are so afraid of lawsuits and they order every conceivable test for even the most minor complaint just to avoid a lawsuit or spread the guilt around, back in the 60s, doctors diagnosed problems based on their knowledge alone. It could take many years to narrow down and identify a specific chronic problem.

Not necessarily better or worse, just the way things were back then.

[jar]

We've learned a lot since the sixties. In fact I can't remember the last time they closed all the pools during a Polio Epidemic.

[Matt G]

I started to quip lightly about that being the UT Student Health Center (AKA: "The Quack Shack") that I remember so well, and almost posted a couple of egregious anecdotes about the quality of care I recall them giving in '90-'91. But Hkmp5sd and jar raise some excellent points:
A: Those were different times, both socially, legally, and medically.
B: More often than not, a headache is just a headache.

Whatever the cause of his actions, Whitman's actions were manifested in a most pure form of evil, especially when you consider his actions prior to the tower shooting.

[jacketch]

jar:

.....or stood in line for a sugar cube with vaccine.

[Orthonym]

Don't worry, men, they couldn't hit an elephant at this dist-

[Jeff OTMG]

I remember the New Orleans thing. That was on the roof of the Howard Johnson's downtown back in the 1970's.

[Oleg Volk]

Cannon in an urban area: that's what shrapnel ammo is for. Set it to burst right in front of the target, doesn't go far afterward.

[Orthonym]

We enlightened (cough, cough) Westerners quit firing Shrapnel shells in , oh, 1917 or 1918. Those benighted Soviet Russkis used them as late as 1945.

To get serious: I saw the movie, with the attempt to shoot at the guy from an airplane. These days, I'm afraid the Govt. has gone from ineffectual to overkill. It wouldn't be an old biplane carrying a guy with a rifle, it'd be a fairly nasty heavily armed and armored helicopter. No doubt that would be the right solution, saving the lives of many innocents, but that kind of deadly power has been known to go to people's heads.


I'm glad the thing was stopped in the right way, by a local cop and a citizen volunteer, but I'm also very sad that so many people were killed and hurt before the end.

[Art Eatman]

Orthonym, a couple of guys did go up in a light plane to check out the UT tower. They left the scene when they realized he was taking shots at them.

I wouldn't have hung around, either.

:), Art

[MacPelto]

Getting in kind of late, but I thought that I'd add that my boss was there, looking out the windows of Batts Hall, watching the whole thing.:( And that, for those of you planning a trip here sometime soon, they recently re-opened the tower observation deck, and tours are available.

http://www.utexas.edu/tower/schedule.html/


Also, about the ROTC, yes, they have it here, and in point of fact, right next to the ROTC Building is the UT Rifle Range, home of the UT Rifle and Pistol Club, which I am Vice-President of.

http://www.txis.com/~brad/utrpc/