Any fans of the 20" AR15 ?


PDA






mp5a3
July 17, 2009, 03:41 PM
Almost all of the AR's I see are 16" M4 style, I wanted to see if anyone preferred the 20" w/ the fixed stock. My Buhmaster XM15 was my first ever AR15 and I would find it hard to sell. I've heard that no one wants to buy this style and they sell for much less.

Also a question, what's an "HBAR" barrel ? I did some research but didn't find anything on it.

If you enjoyed reading about "Any fans of the 20" AR15 ?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
ArmedBear
July 17, 2009, 03:45 PM
Heavy Barrel Accurized Rifle

Some other people may know the history of "HBAR" a lot better than I.

I have a 20" AR with a fixed stock. I like shooting it.

The 16" has been popular lately, for various reasons, not the least of which was the expiration of the Clinton gun ban that didn't allow collapsible stocks.

There are several markets for the AR, though. There are the "gotta have one" buyers, serious target shooters, varmint hunters, 3-gun competitors, National Match competitors... Each one favors certain characteristics.

Z-Michigan
July 17, 2009, 03:46 PM
I'm a fan of the 20". Easy to shoot accurately, and unless you're riding around in an APC or kicking in doors, it is still light and handy.

HBAR is short for heavy barrel. It's what most commercial ARs have now, but really doesn't make a lot of sense. It weighs about a pound more and it does only very, very little for accuracy and heat capacity. For some reason most commercial AR makers adopted it during the ban years, however. You can get the lighter government profile setup from CMMG, Bushmaster (occasional run), Model 1 Sales, I think J&T Distributing and Double Star, and probably others.

OurSafeHome.net
July 17, 2009, 03:48 PM
I once bested an assailant in close combat using a M-16A2 (20" Barrel, fixed stock).

The encounter was so close that I was only able to club my attacker with the weapon, rather than shoot him. I broke the stock (and my attacker's collar bone) in the process.

So, the "fixed" stock worked, for precisely one strike, then needed to be "fixed"...

briansmithwins
July 17, 2009, 03:48 PM
I like them ok. They are a little long but with a light barrel the balance is very nice.

HBAR refers to a heavy barrel. It pretty much keeps the chamber thickness out the whole way to the muzzle. That makes for a stiffer barrel but also a more awkward one.

Me at a rifle match last weekend. BSW

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_4751Medium-1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_4758Medium-1.jpg

Shung
July 17, 2009, 03:50 PM
love it on my govt profile barrel.. hate it with a HBAR.

dscottw88
July 17, 2009, 04:05 PM
love it it my govt profile barrel.. hate iit with a HBAR.

+1, I dislike the HBARs. I do happen to like the 20" AR15, but honestly, everytime I pick up a 16" or 14.5", I can't help but appreciate the smaller lighter carbine that can do 90% os what the 20" can do.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh234/m4dscottw88/DCP_0015.jpg

ArmedBear
July 17, 2009, 04:11 PM
dscott: isn't that an HBAR?

dscottw88
July 17, 2009, 04:17 PM
dscott: isn't that an HBAR?

Negative ghostrider, gov profile. The extra pound in weight makes a difference, specially when hanging off the front. So I decided to just grab the lighter of the two.

ArmedBear
July 17, 2009, 04:21 PM
Looks just like my heavy barrel 20". Not a NM barrel with a REALLY heavy section under the HG, but a heavy profile 20" barrel (which I like -- mine doesn't seem as heavy as some describe).

briansmithwins, above, is shooting a government profile AFAIK.

Obviously, I can't see under the handguards.

Shung
July 17, 2009, 04:24 PM
the govt profile is extruded in between the front sight and the barrel nut.. You cannot see it with the handguard still on..

but there is a HUGE weight difference with an HBAR . AT least when handling it

briansmithwins
July 17, 2009, 04:29 PM
briansmithwins, above, is shooting a government profile AFAIK.

Negative. That a CMMG lightweight barrel. It’s A1 profile makes for a light 20” rifle. BSW

NG VI
July 17, 2009, 04:29 PM
There are several markets for the AR, though. There are the "gotta have one" buyers, serious target shooters, varmint hunters, 3-gun competitors, National Match competitors... Each one favors certain characteristics.


You left out the Guardsmen who wants more prctice and familiarization than they can get at the yearly qualification/pre-deployment mob station inundation of training. I bought a 16" M4gery from the CMMG Bargain Bin right before they ended the program, it is an excellent rifle and does exactly what I want it to, plus it is a superb home defense weapon for me. Can't imagine I'll ever need it for that, but it's good for it. Looking back on it I think I would have postponed buying a pistol I got around the same time to get on of their 20" fixed stock bargain bin rifles to go with it.

How does a fixed stock 16" handle? Seems like it would be extremely fast to get on target.

aftCG
July 17, 2009, 04:31 PM
I've got 3 ARs. One is a 20" fixed stock I got so my kid could get into DCM NM (hasn't happened yet). Of the three it's the best shooter hands down mostly, I'm sure, due to the stainless Shilen barrel.
I got over the fixed carry handle right away and threw on a compact ACOG. Sweet.

ArmedBear
July 17, 2009, 04:35 PM
Negative. That a CMMG lightweight barrel. It’s A1 profile makes for a light 20” rifle. BSW

Ah. That explains it.:)

TurboFC3S
July 17, 2009, 04:43 PM
+2 on the hate a 20" HBAR ... makes it a bench rifle primarily. The beauty of the AR is firepower in a light mobile platform. It was always meant to have a 'light' profile 20" barrel, and in that config just feels right. I've built 2, one with a Govt profile and one with the CMMG Med-Con barrel, neither with any tacti-cool foolishness on them. They both feel and shoot beautifully, I can stand and bang with them all day.

ArmedBear
July 17, 2009, 04:52 PM
My heavy barrel (maybe not true HBAR profile?) 20" is good for "stand and bang" -- good offhand practical accuracy, enough to win me some stuff at the range. Not fatiguing.

How many profiles are there out there that look "military" -- not counting bull, varmint, etc. styles?

I never gave much thought to exactly which profile I had. When I bought the thing, it was what was available... The world is a better place, now.:D

P.B.Walsh
July 17, 2009, 05:04 PM
I like the classic look of a standard 20" AR-15. :)

Shung
July 17, 2009, 05:09 PM
http://www.ar15barrels.com/profiles.shtml

61chalk
July 17, 2009, 05:12 PM
Got a Colt '78 AR with HBAR 20'' upper. I like it just fine, very accurate. Weight of a rifle doesn't bother me for hauling around at the range or hunting. It just has a scope on it, an feels like the same weight of my Garand when they are loaded. Last time at the range the AR HBAR was hitting a 9" Iron triangle at 540 yds. 12 out of 20 shots hit it. Not bad for a cheap 9X scope.

1987rx7guy
July 17, 2009, 05:24 PM
20" AR owner right here... :)

JDGray
July 17, 2009, 06:35 PM
My 20" HBAR- Varmint- Target- Bench Rifle, is my favorite shooter:) Would be no fun lugging through the woods, but a great paper puncher.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/IMG_3158.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b278/JDG357/IMG_3156.jpg

ArmedBear
July 17, 2009, 06:38 PM
The 20" AR is a rifle.

The 16" AR is a whole different animal, especially with a collapsible stock.

One could quite possibly like both equally, for different reasons and for different kinds of shooting.

I like my relatively heavy 24" .30-06 scoped hunting rifle. That doesn't keep me from liking my light 18.5" .357 lever carbine.

Big_E
July 17, 2009, 06:40 PM
I like the A1 style barrel. Feels just right haven't shot an HBAR so I can't comment. What about a fluted HBAR? Not sure if I have seen a fluted 20'' but I think POF has fluted barrels.

RockyMtnTactical
July 17, 2009, 08:05 PM
I like it, can't say I prefer it though. 1 of my several AR15's is a 20" though.

HBAR = Heavy Barrel, and they suck. Avoid them unless accuracy is your number one priority.

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u87/RMTactical/zIMG_4477.jpg

C-grunt
July 17, 2009, 09:22 PM
My next one will be a govt profile or lighter 20" probably flat top. I had an HBAR and agree they suck for carrying around. I traded it for a light weight 16 inch that I like a lot.

DMK
July 17, 2009, 10:08 PM
I love the full size AR15s, but I'm not a fan of HBARs either. None of my ARs have them. Even my Midlength carbines have lightened Govt. profile barrels. HBARs balance horribly and IMO an AR should be lightweight.

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/LightRifle.jpg
This one has a chrome lined Colt pencil barrel with 1/12 twist. I love the balance and light weight of this rifle.

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/AR15A2.jpg
This one has a CMMG chrome lined 1/7 twist Govt profile (lightened under the handguards)

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/BasicTwenty.jpg
This was one was built during the AWB with a Bushmaster chrome lined 1/9 twist Govt. profile barrel. It now has a flat top upper receiver and sports a Weaver scope

DougW
July 17, 2009, 10:23 PM
3 of my 4 AR's are 20" rifles.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p118/MDWINK/DSCF0099.jpg

The A2 is a true government profile (had a HB machined down, took off a pound of steel), the free float w/the scope is an HBAR, and "big booger" at the top is kinda of a cross between the two. The A2 is really light, and is the "go to' for heavy weapons HD.

possum
July 18, 2009, 12:43 AM
i don't prefer the 20 inch barrels, but i do like them and i wouldn't mind adding one to the collection. i used an a4 for my first deployment to the sandbox. with that said i also am a big fan of 18" barrel ar's (spr's) too, and of course i like the 16", but my favorite is the 10.5" uppers.

though i like them all i am realistic and the 16" barrel ar's serve me and my needs the best and for me personally is the best all around size in an ar.

SHvar
July 18, 2009, 12:52 AM
In order to buy an Hbar you must specifically buy a model that specifies Hbar, not all, nor most, not even half, but only a few commercial AR rifles have the Hbar option. Most now are light barrels. All Hbar models specify Hbar in the model name.
I dont like the extra weight of the Hbar barrel for my use, but a good friends hbar is nice to shoot on the bipod.

possum
July 18, 2009, 01:02 AM
or you can go the real heavy barreled option and get a Noveske ar. they use m249 barrels!:)

Pony Express
July 18, 2009, 01:32 AM
i have a colt MT HBAR with a 20" bbl. i love it, but if it werent for the CT AWB, i would probably have a 16" with the gov't profile bbl.

Moose458
July 18, 2009, 10:10 AM
My Sabre Defence upper is a 20 inch governmnet barrel, and I wouldn't trade it foa any other size or type.

http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg92/Moose458/234896-R1-08-9-1.jpg

krs
July 18, 2009, 12:32 PM
I like rifles, and I like carbines too.

This one has an Isreali returned Colt upper on a Fulton Armory lower with FA bolt group. The colors matched up well with no work, and the somewhat beatup furniture reminds me of home. I usually sleep with this rifle :).

DMK
July 18, 2009, 12:48 PM
In order to buy an Hbar you must specifically buy a model that specifies Hbar, not all, nor most, not even half, but only a few commercial AR rifles have the Hbar option. Most now are light barrels. All Hbar models specify Hbar in the model name. That's not true.

Most ARs today come with HBARs unless you specifically order a lighter profile (such as M4 profile, Pencil Barrel or Govt. profile). They rarely indicate that the barrel is an HBAR. It is sort of the "default" these days.

Best thing to do is pull the handguards off the rifle before you buy it. If it's not a pencil barrel and isn't machined down under the handguards, then it's an HBAR.

RockyMtnTactical
July 18, 2009, 02:22 PM
In order to buy an Hbar you must specifically buy a model that specifies Hbar, not all, nor most, not even half, but only a few commercial AR rifles have the Hbar option. Most now are light barrels. All Hbar models specify Hbar in the model name.

Huh? HBAR has nothing to do with the model name, only with the barrel used, and HBAR's are quite common, unfortunately.

Evil Monkey
July 18, 2009, 04:42 PM
In my opinion, worthless or not, there no point to 20" ar15's. Maybe it has some purpose for hunting, but I don't hunt so I wouldn't know.

But for "social work", the shorter rifles are better for handiness and having to realistically engage target under 100-200 meters.

Longer than approximately 300meters and it's time for the ar10.

Lovesbeer99
July 18, 2009, 04:55 PM
I don't see a need for the 16" barrel so I bought a 20" and I'm glad I did. I see the 16 as a law enforcement tool, mall ninja accessory, or for fun plinking. I've not see (though I haven't been everywhere either) anyone using a 16 for competition target shooting or for extreme accuracy.

The 16 can be fun, but so is the 20. I can target shoot, and plink which is all I really do with it. From home to the range and back. the 20" is great.

FlyinBryan
July 18, 2009, 06:38 PM
my first ar was a colt 20" hbar. (model 6700 match target rifle) i sold it but not really because it was too heavy or long, but because it just wasnt reliable. (i guess i got a lemon)

if your not seeing many of them, or they seem unpopular, your just looking in the wrong direction.

there is a perfect application for every configuration imaginable.

the weekend commandos are going to run through 3 gun and carbine courses and leave the 20" heavy rifles in the dust, and at the same time, the dcm boys and their 20" hbars will have the carbines running with tails tucked everytime in national level high power competition, like the camp perry national matches (which is really the nascar of shooting sports) in these competitions, the nearest target is normally at 200 yards, then 300, and 600.

so its really all about what a person wants to do. luckily theres a version for everyone.

MJR007
July 18, 2009, 07:33 PM
It matters on the cartridge. A deer rifle in a 6.5 or wssm a 20" tube is good.

raskolnikov_22
July 18, 2009, 08:37 PM
I like the 20" fine w/ fixed stock and iron sights just fine.

FlyinBryan
July 18, 2009, 09:39 PM
so do i.

i might like the a2 buttstock look even better than the telescopic. it looks very clean.

BlackHand1917
July 18, 2009, 11:07 PM
In 1989 or so I bought my AR-15A2 Colt (standard barrel) and its been so reliable and easy to use that I have not felt compelled to buy any other AR. Back then the colts with the shorter barrels (as I recall) were a couple hundred dollars more expensive than the standard length.

High Planes Drifter
July 18, 2009, 11:30 PM
so do i.

i might like the a2 buttstock look even better than the telescopic. it looks very clean.


+1. My favorite rifle is a 20" A2 w/ iron sights, and a fixed buttstock.

Nugilum
July 19, 2009, 12:09 AM
A Civilian M16A1 is all I need. :D

W.E.G.
July 19, 2009, 12:10 AM
Lotta good times with this rifle.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/rifle%20pics/AR-15/DSCN4301smaller.jpg

R.W.Dale
July 19, 2009, 12:11 AM
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y96/krochus/iPhoneUpload-20.jpg

I guess you call me a fan

The top is my 7.62x39 deer rifle depicted in the link below

the bottom is a for fun and CMP, a retro surplus upper with a forward assist but no bump with the pencil barrel and A1 sights

mp5a3
July 19, 2009, 01:21 AM
I'm sorry for starting a thread on 20" AR's and not posting a pic of mine..

http://i727.photobucket.com/albums/ww280/HKMP5a3/DSC00484.jpg

Rshooter
July 19, 2009, 01:26 AM
Got an HBAR that looks like a standard A2 military model gun, carry handle and full sized stock etc. It is DCM legal and highly accurate. Personally I would never drop below 18". Loved the picture of that oldie. I used to carry one of those M16's with the pencil barrel and 1/12 twist, they came in at 6.5 pounds. Now that was an Assault Weapon.

SHvar
July 19, 2009, 02:37 AM
"Most ARs today come with HBARs unless you specifically order a lighter profile"
Name the specific rifles and manufacturers that come standard as Hbars.
Every manufacturer I have checked on specifies heavy barrel or Hbar if so equipped. In fact most manufacturers offer a model with the standard thin barrel and Hbar as another model completely.
Here is a list from just 2 companies with one list for Hbar models, one for light barreled models, all standard.

The following are Bushmaster heavy barreled rifles.
Varminter Special
V Match
20"stainless steel A2
24" Varminter
20" Predator
20" National Match Target Model
20" Flat Top National Target Match
16" Heavy Carbine
14.5" Heavy Barrel
.450 Bushmaster Caliber. 20" or 16"
16" heavy barreled carbine



The following are not heavy barreled Bushmasters
Modular Carbine
Carbon 15 Flat-top carbine
Carbon 15 R97F Rifle
6.8mm spc M4
Gas piston rifle
16in PostBan Carbine M4
16in Dissipator A3
16in Carbine M4
16" Dissipator A2
14.5" Bbl. M4
14.5" Bbl AK Carbine
14.5" .223 Caliber M4 (A2 or A3)
11.5" A2 or A3 CAR15
Carbon 15 - 9mm LE SBR
Carbon 15 - 5.56mm LE SBR
M4 patrolmans carbine
11.5" Barreled entry carbine
20" M16A2/A3 type rifle
C15 LE pistol



DPMS Heavy barreled models

Panther mini SASS
Lopro classic (1 inch heavy barrel)
Panther DCM
Bull sweet 16
Bull 24 special
Bull 24
Bull 20
Arctic panther
LR 204
LR243
LR260
LR308
LRT SASS
LR338
6.5 Creedmoor panther



DPMS not Hbar

The agency rifle
Panther carbine
Panther A3 lite
Mark 12
Lite 20
Lite 16
Classic
Classic 16
AP4 carbine
A2 carbine
A2 tactical 16
AP4 carbine Miculek
5.56 NATO sportical
16" 6.8 spc
20" 6.8 spc
7.62 NATO sportical
LR308AP4

Im sure with around 2 hours research I could get a list from almost any manufacturer to compare.

RockyMtnTactical
July 19, 2009, 05:21 AM
Every manufacturer I have checked on specifies heavy barrel or Hbar if so equipped.

Irrelevant to the original claim you made.

only a few commercial AR rifles have the Hbar option.

I would say that is an understatement.

Also, just because a company makes (for example) 5 HBAR models and 10 non HBAR models, that doesn't mean there are less HBAR's out there. Just less HBAR models. So, it really proves nothing.

DougW
July 19, 2009, 09:43 AM
HBAR barrels are very common, as they are cheaper to make than a government profile. I had to have a HBAR machined to government profile because at the time (about 4 yearsago) getting a government profile 20" barrel was about impossible. Even on the 1 year old Del-Ton rifle I call "big booger" (green furniture), the profile under the handguard is a bit larger in diameter than my machined barrel. But, it is no where near the diameter of the HBAR.

Art Eatman
July 19, 2009, 01:10 PM
I have a late-model Colt; the barrel looks sorta like what I'd call "medium". Dunno. The rig looks fine for social work. Nice, tight groups from the benchrest.

I recently was informed by CMMG that my 20" lightweight flat-top upper was gonna get built--at long last. I'll scope it and use it as my truck gun for the occasional coyote.

As far as 20" vs. 16", the utility and range of centerfire .22s depends on muzzle velocity. The .223 is already down on power compared to the .22-250 or the Swift, so I figure "more is better" when it comes to the barrel department.

SHvar
July 19, 2009, 01:30 PM
Again, you show me a list of specific models by manufacturer of Hbar models, and a comparable list by the same manufacturer of non Hbar models.
Until then your arguement that they are more common or more numerous is false. The lists from 2 companies I gave include purpose built stainless steel heavy barrel target rifles under Hbar. So if I were to remove these rifles the list of Hbar models would actually be very very few, in fact those specified by the manufacturer only.
Show me a list of specific models, until then do not claim that there are more Hbar models than non Hbar models. Your arguement becomes irrelevent without a list.

JDGray
July 19, 2009, 01:38 PM
RRA has only HBAR or bull 20" barrels, but thats just one company:)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 19, 2009, 04:03 PM
Yes, I'm a fan of the 20".

It matters on the cartridge. A deer rifle in a 6.5 or wssm a 20" tube is good.

See, I kinda tend to think the opposite. For a 6.5 or 6.8 or 7.62x39, 16" or 18" makes more sense, but for a 5.56, the longer barrel is needed to make the round perform well.

DMK
July 19, 2009, 05:37 PM
The following are not heavy barreled Bushmasters
Modular Carbine
Carbon 15 Flat-top carbine
Carbon 15 R97F Rifle
6.8mm spc M4
Gas piston rifle
16in PostBan Carbine M4
16in Dissipator A3
16in Carbine M4
16" Dissipator A2
14.5" Bbl. M4
14.5" Bbl AK Carbine
14.5" .223 Caliber M4 (A2 or A3)
11.5" A2 or A3 CAR15
Carbon 15 - 9mm LE SBR
Carbon 15 - 5.56mm LE SBR
M4 patrolmans carbine
11.5" Barreled entry carbine
20" M16A2/A3 type rifle
C15 LE pistol

I'm not going to look up all those models, but I know for a fact that the Bushmaster Dissy is an HBAR unless it is specially ordered with an M4 profile barrel. And they only make the M4 barrels in special runs so you usually have to wait for it.

Another misleading thing many manufacturers do is make the M4 cuts in front of the sight block, but not under the handguards.

If the manufacturer doesn't specify M4 profile, superlight profile, lightweight profile, or govt profile, you are almost surely getting an HBAR.

If you enjoyed reading about "Any fans of the 20" AR15 ?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!