Shelby County Texas - Son Ticketed for Unlawful Transportation of Firearm


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gamboolman
July 17, 2009, 08:15 PM
My 23 year old was pulled over in Shelby County, Texas in the town of Center for speeding. The lawman asked him if he had a weapon and my son told him yes, a 20 gauge pump action. My son is a college student at East Texas Baptist University and is going to be a pastor. He is travelling all over East Texas and down to Houston to see Mom and Dad.
The shotgun was/is legal.
I was oversea's when this happened and my son paid the ticket instead of fighting the charge of " Unlawful Transportation of a Firearm"

I went nuts when I heard about this but it is done now.

Whats done is done, but this is totally wrong - I thought??

Any comments and advice would be appreciated.

Thanks, Mad Dad - gamboolman....

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Flintknapper
July 17, 2009, 09:02 PM
Assuming your son is not a "felon" and was not in a place that would otherwise prohibit him from possessing the firearm, he was well within his rights to have it (and transport it).

I live about 20 miles from Center and am very surprised to hear this happened.

If you would like to discuss the applicable laws (and the event)...please feel free to join us here:

http://www.texasshooting.com/TexasCHL_Forum/index.php

Actually, under the Motorist Protection Act he could also have had a handgun with him (subject to certain restrictions).

If it were me...I would not "let this go".

mgkdrgn
July 17, 2009, 09:03 PM
Like you said, done is done.

Now, the shotgun itself may be "totally legal", but that doesn't mean the way it was being transported was. Not being a resident of TX, I'm not all that up on TX law.

Does it require the gun be unloaded? "Secured"? Inaccessible? Ammo secured separately?

Art Eatman
July 17, 2009, 09:04 PM
If I have any "advice" at all, it's to avoid the Internet and ask a lawyer who's conversant on this part of Texas law.

For instance, from my own very limited knowledge, if you plead guilty you have given up any hope of recourse beyond seeking a gubernatorial pardon. But don't take that as gospel.

TexasRifleman
July 17, 2009, 09:35 PM
ow, the shotgun itself may be "totally legal", but that doesn't mean the way it was being transported was. Not being a resident of TX, I'm not all that up on TX law.

I'm having a hard time with this one.

There are no long gun laws in Texas so this is a bit hard to believe. There is not a single law in Texas related to how, when or why a long gun is carried, other than a list of prohibited places like court houses, jails, schools, etc. Vehicles for absolute certainty have no restriction on how long guns are transported within.

I'm having an even harder time with the idea that a gun law was broken but the gun was not confiscated and only a citation was written.

Something here doesn't pass the smell test.

What exact section of the Texas Penal Code was he accused of violating?

The only part of the penal code that talks about unlawful carrying of weapons is 46.02:

Sec. 46.02. UNLAWFUL CARRYING WEAPONS. (a) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun, illegal knife, or club if the person is not:
(1) on the person's own premises or premises under the person's control; or
(2) inside of or directly en route to a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control.
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:
(1) the handgun is in plain view; or
(2) the person is:
(A) engaged in criminal activity, other than a Class C misdemeanor that is a violation of a law or ordinance regulating traffic;
(B) prohibited by law from possessing a firearm; or
(C) a member of a criminal street gang, as defined by Section 71.01.
(a-2) For purposes of this section, "premises" includes real property and a recreational vehicle that is being used as living quarters, regardless of whether that use is temporary or permanent. In this subsection, "recreational vehicle" means a motor vehicle primarily designed as temporary living quarters or a vehicle that contains temporary living quarters and is designed to be towed by a motor vehicle. The term includes a travel trailer, camping trailer, truck camper, motor home, and horse trailer with living quarters.
(b) Except as provided by Subsection (c), an offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(c) An offense under this section is a felony of the third degree if the offense is committed on any premises licensed or issued a permit by this state for the sale of alcoholic beverages.


You will notice that long guns are not included in this, only handguns, illegal knives, or clubs.

46.03 lists the prohibited places but inside a private auto is not one of them, and violation of most of these laws would result in an arrest, not a citation.

There are various laws around disturbing the peace, threatening someone with a long gun etc of course but again it's almost a certainty that violating those would result in arrest and confiscation of the firearm.

Something is missing from this story.

Deltaboy
July 17, 2009, 10:13 PM
Call your lawyer that doesn't pass the smell test .

almostfree
July 17, 2009, 11:39 PM
Could it be a city ordinance? I know that state preemption would invalidate it, but perhaps they wrote him up for a now defunct law. Call the TSRA.

Hawkeye748
July 17, 2009, 11:52 PM
It might not be too late to appeal this citation. Check with a lawyer.

nalioth
July 18, 2009, 12:41 AM
Definitely no such law on the Texas books.

RX-178
July 18, 2009, 12:44 AM
Under Texas State law, there was no legal reason for your son to have been ticketed. But, of course, you are talking about a 23 year old adult son. I wouldn't try to raise an excrement storm on his behalf.

He was given a ticket, paid it. It's over, like you said. All I would do is inform your son that he had committed no crime, and there was no reason that the officer should have ticketed him in the first place.

If he wishes to pursue it further at that point, by all means, help him. If he doesn't, then just chalk it up as new experience, so that it doesn't happen again.

saltydog452
July 18, 2009, 11:11 AM
The arrest record is still there and it could come back years later and bite him. Sensitive job application, loans, CHL Permit, etc. Its worth looking into and that'd involve an attorney.

We can be charged (accused) for most anything. Some of the writing performed by the nice policeman can get real creative.

My expunction cost a smooth 1,000$. I think it was money well spent.

salty

doubleought 7
July 18, 2009, 12:05 PM
Just one more case of LAW ENFORCEMENT ignoring law. All the pitiful screams of "they can't do that" do not change things "They did dood it"

as salty dog writes We can be charged (accused) for most anything. Some of the writing performed by the nice policeman can get real creative.

And contrary to Innocent until proven guilty, it is then up to the accused to prove they are innocent of the charges

And as a Houston DA stated "The presumption of innocense doesn't mean they are innocent"

And Chuck Connors AKA the rifleman opines Something here doesn't pass the smell test.

Is the rifleman hinting that the young man LIED

taprackbang
July 18, 2009, 12:29 PM
Just one more case of LAW ENFORCEMENT ignoring law

Ain't that the truth.
Just what we need; Another nice policeman engaged in criminal activity.

Yo Mama
July 18, 2009, 12:32 PM
I always recommend my family who carry bring in their car a copy of the revised statutes. It's always fun to show the officer the actual law.

TexasRifleman
July 18, 2009, 01:14 PM
Is the rifleman hinting that the young man LIED

Nope, I am stating flat out that there is more to this story that is being told, either by omission or simply not knowing all the details.

In this case there was a specific charge levied against the young man. When a cop accuses someone of breaking the law they must tell what law is being broken. In this case the charge is supposedly "Unlawful Transportation of a Firearm" except there is no such thing in Texas as it relates to long guns in a vehicle. So, the story is not complete.

So, what law was broken?

And, as I've explained to you before as well, if a cop DID do this solely based on a shotgun then it's a lottery win potentially for the young man.

Either way, the story is not complete.

As for the other things, I never claimed that cops were perfect, or that there were not plenty of bad ones out there.

What I said, and I maintain, is that just because there are bad cops or bad DA's out there one should not hide in their homes for fear of being arrested for made up law violations.

doubleought7 has basically suggested that Texans should not carry guns since they might run into a rogue cop or DA. That's pretty much rewarding this kind of behavior in law enforcement and I for one will not reward them for breaking the law.

That's a ridiculous way to live your life.

Deanimator
July 18, 2009, 01:42 PM
In this case there was a specific charge levied against the young man. When a cop accuses someone of breaking the law they must tell what law is being broken. In this case the charge is supposedly "Unlawful Transportation of a Firearm" except there is no such thing in Texas as it relates to long guns in a vehicle. So, the story is not complete.
A law (or laws) don't have to exist in order for you to be [falsely] arrested for violating them. From the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) website:

The Virginia Citizens Defense League reports three Fairfax County, VA police officers are involved in a false arrest of a North Carolina man.
**********************************************************

We haven't had any issues with the Fairfax County police in quite a while now. I have found them to be one of the best run police agencies in Virginia, stated Philip Van Cleave.

However, three officers tarnished that image last week when they unlawfully arrested a North Carolina resident who was legally carrying a handgun and had a North Carolina CHP.

Hold on tight - this is a weird story.

The gun owner was pulled over for running through a red light, a charge which the gun owner disputes.

The gun owner, believing that he had to disclose he was lawfully armed as they do in North Carolina, dutifully told the officer he had a NC CHP and was indeed armed.

The officer seemed to ignore the statement, but very shortly two more patrol units pulled up. The next thing the gun owner knew he is in a "felony stop" mode. He was asked to walk backwards towards the officers, who then disarmed and handcuffed him.

While trying to unloaded his gun, THEY DROPPED IT ONTO THE ROAD!

The two officers and a SERGEANT then proceeded to tell him that he was under arrested for:

1. Having hollow point bullets, which they claimed were illegal in Virginia (!)
2. Taking a loaded gun across the state line, which the gun owner was told was a FELONY (!)
3. Having a concealed gun that the police said he couldn't have since he was from North Carolina (!!)

His car and gun were impounded and he was taken off to a magistrate.

The magistrate looked at the charges and told the police officers that they had just made a false arrest.

The officers pointed out the possession of hollow point bullets. The magistrate asked, "are they teflon coated?"

"No," replied on of the officers.

"Then they are legal."

Trying to find something that would stick and justify the false arrest, one of the officers said, "We couldn't verify that his North Carolina permit is valid."

The magistrate looked at the permit, noticed the phone number on the back where one can call to verify the permit, called the number, and within a few minutes found out the permit was indeed valid.

The gun owner was ordered to be released.

After being released from custody, the gun owner was given a hard time by another officer about getting his gun back, but he did finally get it back.

If all of that isn't bad enough, the arresting officer went ahead and gave the gun owner a ticket for the alleged offense of running a red light!

In essence, with that brilliant move, the officer was practically BEGGING the gun owner to PLEASE sue Fairfax Count for the false arrest!

I have already talked to my high-level contact with the Fairfax County PD about this entire situation and the gun owner has filed a formal complaint.

In the past, Fairfax County PD has been very good when such internal investigations are required. Now we will wait and see what happens.

What is clear is that Fairfax County PD needs to educate its officers on:

1. Possession of hollow point bullets
2. Reciprocity laws
3. Lawful carriage of firearms across state lines
4. Safe gun handling (a few years ago unsafe gun handling by an officer cause a gun to discharge, killing an unarmed, handcuffed man)

Flintknapper
July 18, 2009, 01:57 PM
If the original poster will PM me the name of the officer... I can find out something out about this incident. I know most of the LE around here and this incident allegedly occurred in the next county from me (a scant 20 miles from here).

It is hard for me to imagine that the alleged incident took place (as described), but I will be happy to inquire.

Flint.

doubleought 7
July 18, 2009, 02:24 PM
Chuck Connors AKA The Rifleman writes

doubleought7 has basically suggested that Texans should not carry guns since they might run into a rogue cop or DA. That's pretty much rewarding this kind of behavior in law enforcement and I for one will not reward them for breaking the law.

I did not "basically suggest" ANYTHING I only warned that in certain Metropolitan areas of Texas where the lawmen have had a proven record of it( published in major newspapers) in the past are still REPUTED to be ignoring what the law says about possesion of a pistol in a vehicle. Not certifying it is accurate and I don't care whether it is believed or not.

The law that the Guardhouse lawyers keep quouting reads and I quote from Chuck Connors AKA The Rifleman

(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

As salty wrote some cops can be very creative in their writing.

If stopped and the subject should come up can you prove you are the LEGAL owner of the handgun? And recklessly at a stop on the side of the road is not defined and is strictly in the eye of the beholder. The authorities in too many area in too many cases believe charge and let the courts figure it out. Sue them Lotsa luck. For what?
Their stated attitude is "Presumsion of innocence does not mean they are innocence"

I am fairly new to these shooters chat rooms. Who are these TSRA members and why do they seem to believe that cops always follow the rules? Is it true as someone posted that some TSRA board members are also on the Board of Handgun Control(Sarah Brady's wackos) This ought to be a Yes or No question no waffling.


If the message can't be denied ATTACK the poster of the message

doubleought 7
July 18, 2009, 02:45 PM
Flintknapper wrote
If the original poster will PM me the name of the officer... I can find out something out about this incident. I know most of the LE around here and this incident
It is hard for me to imagine that the alleged incident took place (as described), but I will be happy to inquire.

Flint.

Incident happened inVA Is this the same Flintknapper who claims Deep East Texas as location And writes abiut Texas law? East Texas is a large area but I don't think it includes VA SOS The Law wouldn't have done that actual quote "It is hard for me to imagine that the alleged incident took place"

Deanimator
July 18, 2009, 02:50 PM
Incident happened inVA
The incident cited by the OP happened in Texas.

Someone else appeared to disbelieve that you could be harassed [or arrested] for something that's not a crime, AT ALL. I posted proof to the contrary involving a blatant false arrest for nonexistent "crimes" which took place in Virginia.

nalioth
July 18, 2009, 02:52 PM
Let's break it down - with color coordination . .

If the original poster will PM me the name of the officer... I can find out something out about this incident. I know most of the LE around here and this incident
It is hard for me to imagine that the alleged incident took place (as described), but I will be happy to inquire.

Flint.

Incident happened inVA Is this the same Flintknapper who claims Deep East Texas as location And writes abiut Texas law? East Texas is a large area but I don't think it includes VA SOS The Law wouldn't have done that actual quote "It is hard for me to imagine that the alleged incident took place"

If my meager reading skills are up to the task, the original post concerns an incident in Shelby County, Texas. Why would you think "Shelby County, Texas" would be in Virgina?

. . or did I miss something somewhere?

doubleought 7
July 18, 2009, 02:56 PM
Sorry no message was referred to by Flint I just assumed it was the last case of harassmant posted. The one in VA.

ClickClickD'oh
July 18, 2009, 03:47 PM
He paid the citation?

How?

I can't imagine the court clerk was able to find a penalty schedule for an offense that doesn't exist.

I think you need to find the citation and let us know what iy says on it, and how much he... paid for it.

gamboolman
July 18, 2009, 04:06 PM
I am calling my attorney Monday. As I said I got in from oversea's Friday evening late and when my wife told me, I was upset.
I will have our attorney talk to my son as he is on his own as he is an adult.

It is just with him still being in college and we are paying for his schooling - (our choice and we are blessed that I have a good enough job that we can put our kids thru school) - I just hate to see him get a ticket/charge that may haunt him in later life.

I do not blame folks for thinking their may be more to this story - I suspect/think the same thing. Our son has never been in trouble of any kind. He said he did not argue or say anything to make the Officer take the action he did. However, I too just have to believe their is more this than I know.

He is a grown man, I will let our attorney advise him. And as Mom has made me realize once I calmed down - Dad needs to let him handle his own business and live with the consequences of his choices.
Kids..........

I will update the board with whatever the outcome is.

Thanks for the responses and comments.

gamboolman.....

Cuzzin
July 18, 2009, 04:54 PM
Re the OP for TX - were children in the vehicle that could have had access to the gun? Was he on the campus of Panola located in Center? A citation for illegal transport of firearm is really hard to reach.

TexasRifleman
July 18, 2009, 05:24 PM
(a-1) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries on or about his or her person a handgun in a motor vehicle that is owned by the person or under the person's control at any time in which:

As salty wrote some cops can be very creative in their writing.

If stopped and the subject should come up can you prove you are the LEGAL owner of the handgun?


That law says you have to be the owner or operator of the MOTOR VEHICLE, not the gun..

The law says nothing about proving ownership of a gun even if you are carrying it with you. One more thing that cops cannot do and if they DO they can lose their jobs and their retirements.

Now you're going to tell us that you know a guy who had a cousin that went to school with a guy that knew about a guy getting arrested because he couldn't prove he owned a gun. If so then he should have filed a complaint and gone after the LEO. No one should tolerate this kind of abuse of power.

You keep missing the point in all of these. The point is not that these things may happen now and then, it's that when they DO happen they are crimes and we must push back, not just take it.

TexasRifleman
July 18, 2009, 05:38 PM
A law (or laws) don't have to exist in order for you to be [falsely] arrested for violating them. From the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) website:


Exactly. That's the point. When it happens it's a crime by the LEO and should be pursued as far as possible. They need to pay the price for this kind of thing.

Deanimator
July 18, 2009, 05:56 PM
Exactly. That's the point. When it happens it's a crime by the LEO and should be pursued as far as possible. They need to pay the price for this kind of thing.
I've asked for an update on the Fairfax County incident. So far, there hasn't been any, other than an unconfirmed report that the victim decided not to sue. I suspect that if that's the case, VCDL is working behind the scenes to change his mind.

That was such an UTTERLY egregious case that careers and lives need to be seriously damaged because of it. If I were the victim, I'd sell everything I owned if need be to finance a suit against the officers and the county. No settlements, no mercy. Criminality of that sort has to be punished, harshly and without one iota of compassion.

TexasRifleman
July 18, 2009, 05:57 PM
've asked for an update on the Fairfax County incident. So far, there hasn't been any, other than an unconfirmed report that the victim decided not to sue. I suspect that if that's the case, VCDL is working behind the scenes to change his mind.

Wow, I'd be all over that one. Better odds than Vegas if you ask me :)

ants
July 18, 2009, 06:01 PM
I assumed that the intent of the original post was that the kid paid the ticket for SPEEDING rather than fight an alleged firearms charge.

If this is true, I believe that several members may have misunderstood the circumstances.



A single, hastily written paragraph by an angry parent seldom includes us all the facts. I know he is upset right now, but I hope Gamboolman has the time to sit down and tell us everything that really happened. If he is requesting sympathy or advice, we deserve to know all the facts.

Or maybe our friend Gamboolman was just hot under the collar, and just needed to vent to friendly guys like us. That's cool. We all need that occasionally.

Deanimator
July 18, 2009, 06:04 PM
Wow, I'd be all over that one. Better odds than Vegas if you ask me
You'd have a better chance fending off a grizzly bear with a nerf bat than those officers and the county would of prevailing if a first year law student took that case to trial. The multiple examples of clear malice are just icing on the cake.

TexasRifleman
July 18, 2009, 06:05 PM
If this is true, I believe that several members may have misunderstood the circumstances.

That was certainly possible from the OP, which is why I said there must be something missing. But then the OP posts a second time and says:


It is just with him still being in college and we are paying for his schooling - (our choice and we are blessed that I have a good enough job that we can put our kids thru school) - I just hate to see him get a ticket/charge that may haunt him in later life.


Speeding tickets don't "haunt people for life". It seems to indicate pretty clearly that dad thinks the young man pled guilty or no contest to "unlawful carrying of a firearm" and paid a fine for that, not speeding.

But, there STILL seems to be something missing so it will be interesting to find out how this plays out. You may be right and the dad is just confused about what happened.

That would certainly make sense. Some cop threatening more serious charges if the guy doesn't give in to the speeding charge. That I'll buy. Still sleazy, but not necessarily illegal since cops are allowed to lie in general.

MattTheHat
July 18, 2009, 06:52 PM
I wouldn't let it go either. If the ticket should never have been issued, then wether or not it was paid should be immaterial.

Hell, even the ACLU might be interested.


-Matt

bdickens
July 18, 2009, 07:33 PM
The Texas ACLU would most definitely be interested.

Double Naught Spy
July 18, 2009, 08:18 PM
For the life of me, I have never heard of being ticketed for unlawful transportation of a firearm. Even so, if it was a ticket, it isn't going to "haunt" him.

TexasRifleman
July 18, 2009, 08:43 PM
Even so, if it was a ticket, it isn't going to "haunt" him.

Yeah that's likely what, Class C or maybe B misdemeanor at worst.

Still, I sure would like to know what really went on. It's a bizarre story.

mgkdrgn
July 18, 2009, 09:13 PM
The arrest record is still there and it could come back years later and bite him.

"Arrested" and "ticketed" are two entirely different things.

AKElroy
July 18, 2009, 09:18 PM
He paid the citation?

How?

I can't imagine the court clerk was able to find a penalty schedule for an offense that doesn't exist.

Every citation I have seen has a list of offences that the officer must mark. I have never seen firearms related offences listed on a citation, so I wonder how the fine could have been paid absent an adjudication & court imposed fine. I assume a violation of gun laws would result in arrest & confiscation of the weapon. As expressed in numerous other posts, something looks to be missing from this account.

herohog
July 18, 2009, 10:14 PM
I was busted for "possession of deadly weapons" when I was in the Navy stationed in New London, CT. It was a BS charge as all the guns were 100% legal, they just scared the young cop. With no lawyer (Stupid Stupid Stupid!) I went to court and had it reduced to "disorderly conduct" and paid a small fine and got all my rifles back, less all the ammo (several hundred rounds). If _I_, as a stupid, young squid could get "possession of deadly weapons" reduced to "disorderly conduct" and walk away with a record that has never hurt me at all, I would think THIS could have turned out MUCH better if ANYONE had even tried a LITTLE bit! I would LOVE to know the end result and whole story on this one.

Art Eatman
July 18, 2009, 11:45 PM
Too much unknown, too much unclear, too much speculation.

Too much.

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