CITIZEN'S ARREST BY CCWers - Close Call


PDA






Leanwolf
July 17, 2009, 11:56 PM
Here's one that very nearly went wrong for two honest CCW holders who were involved in a downtown Citizen's Arrest situation. Well intentioned, but........

Fortunately, one did not shoot the other, but it could have gone very badly.

Be very sure what you're confronting when you pull your handgun, folks.

http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-jul1709-citizen_arrest.4e0b1fd0.html

L.W.

If you enjoyed reading about "CITIZEN'S ARREST BY CCWers - Close Call" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Enginetech88
July 18, 2009, 12:05 AM
This is very true. I have lived out in the country my whole life. So its always been helping your neighbor, looking out for friends type thing. So naturally I would want to help the guy who had his bag stolen. But I have been working at convincing myself to mind my own business and keep reminding myself that its not my fault the guy who had the bag stolen cant protect himself. Thats his choice. :rolleyes: For all I know that bag could have a bomb in it. Josh

Gamera
July 18, 2009, 12:11 AM
What's next? Whipping out the guns when someone jaywalks in front of your car? :rolleyes:

Trill Gear Head
July 18, 2009, 12:12 AM
What do you think they could be charged with?

Gamera
July 18, 2009, 12:16 AM
Brandishing a weapon, disturbing the peace, something to that effect. In my state it's illegal to draw your concealed weapon unless you're in immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury. Well ok actually there are a couple other situations where you can legally draw, but I assure you that "duffle bag being stolen" is NOT one of them.

Lonestar49
July 18, 2009, 12:22 AM
...

Unfortunately, they most likely will need a lawyer to present a legal citizens arrest, case. And of course, not knowing if the caught criminal, had a hidden weapon, one had fear for his life while making a citizens arrest and the other feared for his life seeing the gun, thinking he was robbing the BG holding the stolen bag..

What a mess, and unfortunately, it will cost them both, time and money, and maybe worse, if they lose their cases.


Ls

Gamera
July 18, 2009, 12:23 AM
Someone should have reminded those guys that the license doesn't come with a bat-cape.

jon_in_wv
July 18, 2009, 12:24 AM
Brandishing a firearm amongst other things. The guy with the duffle bag didn't threaten the CCW holder. He went out of his way to intervene and introduced his weapon to the situation. BAD practice for a CCW holder. If your not a police officer you shouldn't try to play one. I know most people just want to help but jumping into a situation that doesn't involve you can get really, really tricky. Once I was stopped on the road by a woman who was running frantically and screaming that a man was trying to kidnap her. There was a man clearly chasing her. It was a domestic dispute. They were fighting and she was just trying to get me involved. I'm sure she didn't know I had my .38 in my hand where they couldn't see. Her child was also in their car. If I had gone hero mode and shot him, do you think the wife would have backed me up in court? I'm quite sure if I would have gotten my weapon involved in that situation at all it would have ended badly for me in one way or another. In the story above, its a duffle bag people, let him have it. I'm sure there is nothing in it worth shooting someone for.

P.S. Also you need to be aware of what the laws are for your state concerning citizens arrest. Some states allow it but do NOT allow you to use force especially deadly force to affect it.

model of 1905
July 18, 2009, 12:27 AM
Neither of these "sheepdogs" were in any imminent danger and should have kept their guns concealed.

Folks if you want to be LEO join the agency of your choice.

I am not a sheepdog and have no desire to be. I protect me and mine. And maybe you and yours if you are imminent danger and I just happen to be in a position to do so. Otherwise, I'm dialing 911 and will be a good witness.

Gunfights are best avoided and guns carried by law abiding citizens should be drawn only when needed to stop a threat of great bodily harm or death. These two guys must fancy themselves John Wayne.

gimlet1/21
July 18, 2009, 12:33 AM
No good deed goes unpunished.

danprkr
July 18, 2009, 09:30 AM
A duffel bag isn't worth my hassle in this instance. I think I'd have let that one go.

Old Fuff
July 18, 2009, 09:48 AM
When I first got an Arizona CCW the instructor went to great lengths to point out that the license did not confer any law enforcement authority to the holder. While Arizona statutes do allow a citizen arrest under some circumstances he strongly suggested that we all read the law so we'd know what the restrictions and liabilities were.

I did so, and quickly decided that I no longer had any interest in making my own arrests. Not all states allow citizen arrests, but if they do where you live, and you have any thought of making such an arrest, you'd better read what the law says first.

You will find that when you detain someone - especially at gunpoint - you take onto yourself full responsibility for your action, and if you make a mistake you can be charged with many things, including kidnapping.

In an extreme case, an Arizona rancher lost everything he owned because he was openly carrying a handgun while "detaining" a group of illegal aliens standing in a public road while waiting for Border Patrol officers to arrive.

moooose102
July 18, 2009, 09:56 AM
No good deed goes unpunished.

yep, that is for certain! personaly, i wouldn't have yanked my gun out for petty theft, unless the jerk hurt seriously hurt an old lady during the heist. then it wouldnt be for the duffle bag, it would have been for the assult. but in any case, that was just one seriously screwed up situation. nobody knows what was in the duffle bag. it could have been anything from a dozen puppies headed for the pound, to $100,000.00 worth of mob money, to a small but very deadly ammonium nitrate or small pox powder bomb, to the guys dirty laundry (most likely). you have to be careful about what you CHOOSE to get yourself involved in. for all we know, (as the situation took place) the guy taking the bag could have been taking it back from the guy who stole it from him in the first place. for me, i got my ccw for the instance when somebody FORCES ME into a situation i otherwise could not get out of. my other guaranteed action response situation would be rape / child molestation. those &^%$%#@@%&(* do not deserve to live to get a trial!

nathan
July 18, 2009, 10:01 AM
Glad there was no crossfire afterwards.

mcdonl
July 18, 2009, 10:36 AM
The guy with the duffle bag didn't threaten the CCW holder. He went out of his way to intervene and introduced his weapon to the situation.

In my state, this would have removed the self defense argument. Although in my state you can also activate citizens arrests. I still feel very very underinformed.

doc2rn
July 18, 2009, 10:38 AM
In an extreme case, an Arizona rancher lost everything he owned because he was openly carrying a handgun while "detaining" a group of illegal aliens standing in a public road while waiting for Border Patrol officers to arrive

Dont get that but ok...note to self dont go to Arizona ever!

divemedic
July 18, 2009, 10:49 AM
Pointing a gun at someone is NOT deadly force in Florida, and maybe not anywhere else, either.

Remember that deadly force is that amount of force which can be reasonably expected to cause death or serious bodily injury. Pointing a gun at someone does not do that until you FIRE the gun.

In Florida, the case Riviero v State, 871 So.2d 953 (Fla. 3DCA 2004), states that as a matter of law, pointing a gun at someone is non-deadly force. Whether or not it constitutes aggravated assault is a different matter.

pbearperry
July 18, 2009, 10:57 AM
They could be charged with being Mall Ninjas without a license.

Old Fuff
July 18, 2009, 11:05 AM
Dont get that but ok...note to self dont go to Arizona ever!

What exactly happen is open to question, but the Mexican government got involved with lawyers, lawsuits, formal complaints to the State Department, and such. Some criminal charges were also brought. Because of liberal advocacy organizations and politics, detaining illegal immigrants can become very sticky, and not just in Arizona. One issue was his right to hold anyone that wasn’t on his property. They of course claimed that he drew his gun, he said that he didn’t – but there were more of them and he had no way to back up his story. Most locals (including law enforcement officers) don’t go beyond calling the Border Patrol if they spot a suspected illegal, because it isn’t worth the grief and you never know which side our government will be on. :banghead:

Your welcome to visit us, but if you don't care to we'll try to live through it.

Double Naught Spy
July 18, 2009, 11:24 AM
Somewhere, there is a mall missing two of its security personnel.

TexasRifleman
July 18, 2009, 11:28 AM
Pointing a gun at someone is NOT deadly force in Florida, and maybe not anywhere else, either.

Same in Texas in some cases, such as this one.

Dont get that but ok...note to self dont go to Arizona ever!

That's a completely different thing. Generally you must witness the crime committed to exercise a "citizens arrest". Just because you are pretty sure you are detaining illegals who have broken a crime crossing the border isn't enough unless you actually witness a crime being committed.

Exercising a citizens arrest on "suspicion" is a good way to end up getting sued into the ground, which is what happened in Arizona.

DMK
July 18, 2009, 12:18 PM
When I first got an Arizona CCW the instructor went to great lengths to point out that the license did not confer any law enforcement authority to the holder.This should be covered in every CCL class. It wasn't covered in mine and that was taught by two cops. I wouldn't consider such a thing, but obviously some folks do think a CCL and a gun makes them a crimefighter.

I have no interest in helping someone I don't know who doesn't make the effort to protect themselves. I'll call 911. Let them figure out who's who.

Getting involved in situations you know nothing about can have even worse implications than these two guys above saw:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=462650

rbernie
July 18, 2009, 12:25 PM
Pointing a gun at someone is NOT deadly force in Florida, and maybe not anywhere else, either.
As TR pointed out, in Texas it is NOT considered deadly force to produce a firearm. Here is the specific wording:

PC §9.04.

Threats as Justifiable Force

The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
Now, combine the presentation of a firearm with words like, "Say your prayers, boy! You'se gonna meet your maker!", will likely meet the definition of 'deadly force' and escalate the situation into places you do not want it to go.

A few more Texas-specific statutes, for reading enjoyment:

PC §9.05.

Reckless Injury of Innocent Third Person

Even though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent third person.

PC §9.06.

Civil Remedies Unaffected

The fact that conduct is justified under this chapter does not abolish or impair any remedy for the conduct that is available in a civil suit.
Note that escalating a confrontation, third party or otherwise, opens the CHL holder up to charges of recklessness as defined by your peers in the community.

I would also assume (dangerous word, there) that no Castle Doctrine would cover the CHL holders conduct in this instance, since both CHL holders were intervening/inserting themselves into the observed affairs of others and were not directly at risk until they chose to intervene.

danbrew
July 18, 2009, 12:32 PM
Interesting - where are all the people here that would otherwise be calling these two CCW men heroes? And fine upstanding members of their community. And those willing to fight for something that means something? And protecting their neighbors? And not standing by idly while evil triumphs?

These two morons need to have charges filed. They need to lose their CCW. They need to spend thousands defending their ill considered actions.

How does this first CCW guy know that duffle didn't belong to the guy that "stole" it? (It apparently didn't, but how did he know that?) How did he know that the guy with the duffle wasn't an armed individual - whether a crook, a CCW holder, or even a cop - that might take unkindly to having somebody draw down on him? And how did the second CCW guy know that the first CCW guy wasn't a cop?

The bottom line is that the guy with the duffle is accused of stealing the duffle. He's not been convicted of any crime and it remains to be seen if he will. The CCW holders? They've been accused of a crime too, but I'll bet they have a lot more to lose than the guy walking around town with a duffle bag.

Some folks don't get that CCW doesn't equal badge.

Yo Mama
July 18, 2009, 12:36 PM
Interesting - where are all the people here that would otherwise be calling these two CCW men heroes? And fine upstanding members of their community. And those willing to fight for something that means something? And protecting their neighbors? And not standing by idly while evil triumphs?


There is a difference between brave and stupid. Maybe folks here know this. Maybe you're referring to the mailman discusssion recently?

Dont get that but ok...note to self dont go to Arizona ever!

While I disagree that the Rancher should not have been in trouble, AZ now has some new laws that reinforce the ability to hold someone at gun point, but only if you feel your life is in immediate danger. The Rancher's life was not in immediate danger, but he was and should have been pissed that illegals were everywhere on his land.

You have to understand, the border issue here is nuts. You had Napolitano who is now running your homeland security in charge of the border, and she never really cared. There are bleading heart liberals here as there are everywhere else, and they love showing the poor illegals and their plight. Lately with the economy it seems to have slowed to a halt.

jon_in_wv
July 18, 2009, 12:44 PM
In case in California a black youth stole a back of Oreos from a store. The store owner grabbed his revolver from under the counter and pursued the boy. The boy turned on the store owner with a screwdriver and he shot the boy killing him. You don't even know how sure I was that guy was going to prison. It turns out that in California he was allowed to bring the weapon with to defend himself while making a citizens arrest. When the boy attacked him he acted in self defense and was protected by the law. I can GUARANTEE you that in many states the outcome of that one would have been vastly different. It all depends on the statutes of YOUR state. He could have been charged with brandishing, kidnapping (if he detained the boy), and in this case murder. THEN you have to deal with the civil suits the family will bring when they sue you for shooting their boy over a pack of Oreos. In the end, the boy was killed over a pack of Oreos. Let it go people. I have nothing in all my possessions I would kill a man over. I would use my weapon to defend the life and safety of my family and me. Thats it.

longdayjake
July 18, 2009, 01:06 PM
Iwaswrong!!!!!!

Phydeaux642
July 18, 2009, 02:50 PM
A CCW permit does not give license to anyone to act as some sort of superhero. If no ones life is being threatened, especially the life of the CCW permit holder, then the threat of deadly force is way over the top. I wouldn't be surprised if at least the first guy had charges brought against him for brandishing.

rbernie
July 18, 2009, 05:20 PM
The condecension and holier than thou attitude that most of the posts have displayed is not what I expected and is just plain poor taste.I saw very little that was truly pejorative. The fact that some folk wouldn't have adopted the same reaction as these two doesn't mean that they're being condescending.

It just means that they have a different value structure.

Some of you are so obsessed with yourselves that the second you read an extremely brief, vague, and badly written news article you start throwing out mall ninja accusations and "I would have done" statements. Both of these men could very well have perfectly good explanations for what they did. Here is how I think the scenario may have gone.

The juxtaposition of these two sides of the same coin (namely, making assumptions), used to both attack others and defend your own reaction, made me laugh. Thanks. :)

All the people in it deserve my help if I can offer it. If I just stand by and let crap happen then I am just as much to blame for the crime rates as the bad guys are. I think that most all of us would agree with that.

The differences of opinion seem to be over WHAT would be the best course of action given all of the options (direct armed intervention, intervention without display of arms, calling 911 and acting as a witness, and so forth).

I will not presume to tell anyone what their values should be. My contribution to this thread has been limited to pointing out how Texas law might view such activities, both good and bad.

NavyLCDR
July 18, 2009, 05:32 PM
Just more ammo for the liberal anti-gunners to try to remove our rights. Stupid actions. Brady Campaign is going to scream, "See! We told you! Blood baths in the streets!" Unfortunately, this isn't the first instance I have read about CC'ers or OC'ers trying to be LEO. Not even LEO would have been justified in drawing a gun on a duffle bag thief.

longdayjake
July 18, 2009, 06:49 PM
The juxtaposition of these two sides of the same coin (namely, making assumptions), used to both attack others and defend your own reaction, made me laugh. Thanks

Point taken. Maybe a better way for me to have phrased it would be "it's possible that it happened like so..."

I was just upset that people would start throwing out derrogatory names at these two men that were both trying to do the world some good. The more posts I read the more I wondered if no one cares about others anymore. I know I sounded like a crazy old man, but I just needed to vent.

Double Naught Spy
July 18, 2009, 07:00 PM
Almost every single person that has posted so far should be ashamed of themselves. The condecension and holier than thou attitude that most of the posts have displayed is not what I expected and is just plain poor taste.

I just love it when folks make reflexive statements! :D

jon_in_wv
July 18, 2009, 08:38 PM
Here is a hypothetical scenario for you. The guy with the bag just grabbed it BACK from the person that stole it and is running away with it. You, being a superhero, jump in to stop the man. He thinks you are another robber and draws a weapon. You shoot and kill him. Good job superhero. Regardless of WHAT your state laws are on citizens arrest you most likely just committed murder. The point is, unless it was YOUR bag in YOUR hands you really don't know what the heck is going on and your involvement is just as likely to get the wrong person hurt or killed as not. You may think you are so smart you can evaluate any situation just at a glance but I can tell you from years of experience that appearances can be deceiving. If nothing else the situation did no involve a firearm. When you are carrying concealed and you choose to enter into a situation YOU are introducing the firearm and will ultimately be responsible for what happens with it. YOU are advocating introducing a firearm and possible deadly force to a STOLEN DUFFLE BAG. The rest of us feel no shame in suggesting that a little restraint may be a better thing in that case.

I also find it comical that one person enters a thread and scold everyone ELSE about a "holier than thou" attitude. That cracks me up.

TexasRifleman
July 18, 2009, 08:48 PM
Man driving by witnesses a struggle for a duffle bag, maybe even some form of violence by Dickey to obtain such duffle bag. All we know is that he "stole" it from another man.

And that's where your mistake is. Driving by you have no idea who the rightful owner of the bag is. And that's where it can get you hung.

As mentioned, what if he's taking his own bag BACK and you draw down?

You're toast.

The point is that you cannot KNOW who the good guy or the bad guy is and unless you are absolutely certain, drawing your gun is not the best course of action.

Call the police, be a good witness, get out your cell phone and start taking pictures and video... there are MANY things that can be done before leaping to the conclusion that it's time to whip out the Peacemaker.

shotgunjoel
July 18, 2009, 08:58 PM
The second guy is fine. The first guy, no way. The second guy was concerned for the guy on the ground, he feared for that guys life. And the first guy yelling 'police', I wouldn't suggest it, but I can see why he did it. It could make the dude stop.

ny32182
July 18, 2009, 09:46 PM
The first guy especially, sounds like a world class asshat. At what point did he think *anyone's* life was in danger, especially his own? He witnessed what he believed to be a petty crime, which was concluded. Then he initiated a new confrontation, with the threat of deadly force. And also introduced himself as a police officer? Yeah. This guy is Gecko45's slow cousin, period.

The second guy, I'll reserve some judgement since the situation he saw already involved a weapon. He still apparently injected himself into the situation with no knowledge of what was going on.

CCW is not about playing cops and robbers folks. It is about saving your life in the most dire of situations. It does not turn you into batman, the local cops, or anyone else charged with the responsibility of chasing down every purse snatcher and shoplifter out there. If you want to do that, there is a correct way to go about it, and that way is to sign up for the police academy.

kyo
July 18, 2009, 09:50 PM
I would just like to say that there is no good deed that goes unpunished. I know from experience. my gun isn't just to keep me alive btw, its folks around me too.

Mags
July 18, 2009, 09:53 PM
None of my buisness and not my job.

The question you need to ask yourself is what would you do if you were not packing? The fact that you are carrying a firearm should never influence your decisions. Also you should never draw your weapon unless you are prepared to pull the trigger not to "arrest" someone or hold them at gunpoint. I conceal carry everywhere I can legally and the only time someone will know I am carrying is when I pull the trigger.

Officers'Wife
July 18, 2009, 09:55 PM
Interesting - where are all the people here that would otherwise be calling these two CCW men heroes? And fine upstanding members of their community. And those willing to fight for something that means something? And protecting their neighbors? And not standing by idly while evil triumphs?

All things have a limit, while the intention may have been pure the actions were far beyond what the situation called for. In this case two weapons were pulled with deadly intent in response to a petty theft. I have what I call the Gilbert and Sullivan test- 'does the punishment fit the crime, tra la does the punishment fit the crime. This instance doesn't pass that test.

ny32182
July 18, 2009, 09:57 PM
The question you need to ask yourself is what would you do if you were not packing? The fact that you are carrying a firearm should never influence your decisions. Also you should never draw your weapon unless you are prepared to pull the trigger not to "arrest" someone or hold them at gunpoint. I conceal carry everywhere I can legally and the only time someone will know I am carrying is when I pull the trigger.

Absolutely. If you are deciding to create situations/confrontations based on the fact that you are CCW'ing, there is going to be a VERY high likelyhood that you are dangerously and criminally in the wrong.

jon_in_wv
July 19, 2009, 02:13 AM
That the most sensible thing I've heard yet.

nwilliams
July 19, 2009, 02:50 AM
Sounds pretty stupid to me. Drawing your gun to stop someone from stealing a duffle bag is foolish and reckless.

IMHO If your life isn't in immediate danger then your gun should remain holstered.

IdahoLT1
July 19, 2009, 03:08 AM
Heres an updated version:

http://www.ktvb.com/news/localnews/stories/ktvbn-jul1709-citizen_arrest.4e0b1fd0.html

BOISE -- A bizarre turn of events Friday afternoon in downtown Boise after a man steals another man's duffle bag.

Two bystanders pulled their guns to stop the crime.

Police say what started this was a case of petit theft.

One man is now accused of stealing a bag from a homeless man near the corner of Americana Boulevard and River Street.



Misunderstanding could lead to assault charges It was after this occurred that Paul Brookhouse stepped in to make a citizens arrest.

He now faces possible felony charges.

"Somewhat confusing when it all was wrapped up," said Lt. Ron Winegar with the Boise Police Department.

On Friday afternoon just before one, Brookhouse says he witnessed a crime.

"The other guy grabbed a bag, a duffle bag and started running across the street. The one gentleman turned around and started yelling, ‘stop hey, stop that's my stuff’," Brookhouse said.

Brookhouse pulled his car over and intervened.

But in the heat of the moment this concealed weapons permit holder made an erroneous claim.

"I pulled my weapon and I told the gentleman, I made a mistake here, I said, "Boise Police. Stop. You're under arrest." So, he did, I asked him to get on the ground, we did all the hands behind your back thing. I frisked him and then held him at gun point until the police department got here," Brookhouse said.

Police identified the man Brookhouse stopped as 46-year-old John Dickey.

But before police arrived another man driving by saw Brookhouse holding Dickey at gun point.

He too held a concealed weapons permit.

"Saw that taking place and thought there was a crime happening and so he intervened, pulling his handgun and trying to detain the first citizen who had pulled the handgun to try and detain the initial suspect," Winegar said.

When police arrived they had both men put down their guns.

"While this citizen, this subject had good intentions in helping out with the crime, we just want everybody to be careful and realize the consequences of pulling a handgun, even if you have a legal and lawful permit,” Winegar said. ”It's always probably a better idea to be a good witness and call us and let us intervene.”

Brookhouse admitted to police he told the man that he was an officer.

He said it just came out because he wanted to stop him.

Because he said that, Brookhouse could face felony charges of impersonating a police officer.

He and the other man who drew his weapon could also face aggravated assault charges.

That decision will be left to the Ada County Prosecuting Attorney's Office.

It's important to mention that neither of the men who drew their guns were arrested.

As for the suspected thief, John Dickey, he is charged with misdemeanor petit theft.

Boise Police say they are grateful that citizens jumped in to help stop a crime.

At the same time, they say that the guns didn't need to be involved, especially with this type of crime.

"If a police officer were making an arrest for petty theft or misdemeanor theft and pulled his gun and pointed it at someone with no apparent reason to do so, then we would certainly be under pretty heavy review for doing that," Winegar said.


I like what the first guys intentions were but dont agree with how he went about it. the 2nd guy is legit as far as 3rd party self defense, IMO.

But lets look at something not mentioned in this thread. Some people say it gives the anti-gun crowd ammunition. But the way i see it is that this will help the overall crime rates(even though they are very low for a metropolitan area of ~600,000). In a city of ~215,000 people, there were 2 people in the area with CCW's. This lets would be criminals know that there is great ratio of permit carriers/sq mile. This event probably only took 2-3 minutes to transpire, yet 2 people in the area had CCW permits.

These 2 guys could face felony charges, but IMO, what they did could help us out. I wonder how it would pan out if States would publish how many current, law abiding CCW permit holders there were. Maybe help deter crime, if 1 in 25 residents have the liscense(Idaho is probably more like 1 in 10)

danbrew
July 19, 2009, 11:19 AM
"I pulled my weapon and I told the gentleman, I made a mistake here, I said, "Boise Police. Stop. You're under arrest." So, he did, I asked him to get on the ground, we did all the hands behind your back thing. I frisked him and then held him at gun point until the police department got here," Brookhouse said.

So, how, exactly, does "i'm a cop, you're under arrest" just slip out by mistake? Clearly the guy has a good dose of policeitis. To my mind this guy was a CCW holder with a gun looking for an excuse to use his gun. They should throw the book at him. Idaho must be a pretty relaxed place because just about anywhere else in the US the guy would still be in jail.

And he had him put his hands behind his back and then frisked him? He was just begging for the guy to take his gun and shoot him.

DFW1911
July 19, 2009, 11:31 AM
I maintain the opinion that those of us who are CHL ARE NOT in any way, shape, or form, LEO, nor do we have special obligations (related to crime prevention) because we do carry firearms. Playing "citizen cop" is just begging for trouble.

Now the hypocrisy: two guys were hassling another guy on the sidewalk in front of my townhouse. I asked him if he was okay, he said he needed help, and I helped. I didn't draw my weapon OR make a citizens arrest. We managed to run them off and called 911. In the aftermath he thinks he was being mugged. The sheer look of terror in his eyes compelled me to act.

I can understand why some get into the cop mode, but they do it at their peril and the peril of others.

Leave them in the holsters unless absolutely necessary.

Just my $.02

DFW1911

longdayjake
July 19, 2009, 11:54 AM
After having gotten more of the story, I humbly admit that the first guy was definately wrong in doing what he did. Not only did he prematurely pull his weapon, but he made some stupid mall ninja comments. I often have to say I am wrong and this case is one of them. That said I still think the second guy was only trying to protect the life of the BG. No harm in that.

Yo Mama
July 19, 2009, 12:03 PM
The other man obviously saw that there was someone threatening deadly force upon another human being. Those that would prefer to see another man murdered rather than use their weapon to try and prevent the murder are just plain stupid. The second man was surely justified morally and legally in drawing his weapon when he saw that deadly force was already the go-to in this situation. He was simply trying to protect the life of another man.


The road to hell is paved with good intentions. Both CCWs were idiots. The first identified himself as an officer (was not), and the second held up another citizen without immediate harm to himself or others.

Both of these men could very well have perfectly good explanations for what they did.

They didn't.

Those of you that called these guys "John Wayne" "Mall Ninja" and "wannabe LEO" either are too quick to judge or just plain jerks.

Call me a jerk then. IMO they are wrong, and make the rest of us work harder to keep in effect the advances we have striven so hard to achieve.

496 polara
July 19, 2009, 12:20 PM
In NC there is no such thing as a citizens arrest.The CC instructor stressed to me heavily that there is a legel gray area concerning pulling your weapon where third party defense is concerned.There are too many things open to interpretation in a court of law.
If I took the time to weigh the legal implications before I acted the situation would be over.Clearly this guy did'nt think before he acted.Shouting police when you are not one is a big no-no.

Cards81fan
July 19, 2009, 01:48 PM
Also you should never draw your weapon unless you are prepared to pull the trigger

+1!

Why is it so hard for people to get? Same thing applies in the VA thread with the SAA revolver... If you draw, it's not because you're announcing, it's because you're shooting.

jon_in_wv
July 19, 2009, 03:05 PM
As for the suspected thief, John Dickey, he is charged with misdemeanor petit theft.


There ya go. Petit theft. Definitely a lethal force situation. You guys should be ashamed for not drawing your guns too. I'm drawing mine right now, just so I can be a hero too. Oops, snagged my weapon on my cape, its OK, I'm alright.

Cactus Jack Arizona
July 20, 2009, 03:34 AM
Oops. What a couple of boneheads, the first more than the second. I only carry to protect myself and my loved ones. The best policy I find today is simple..........don't get involved. I know that sounds selfish, but as another posted, no good deed goes unpunished. It's sad that it has to be this way. I guess we can thank mis-guided politicians and their poor decision making abilities. Maybe this will change one day, but I'm not holding my breath. :uhoh:

Comanche180
July 20, 2009, 07:36 AM
That was a bad call, by both guys. We don't need that kind of action. Actor #1 needs to go to the Wannabe Academy so he can get his methods right. What if the thief had not complied, would he have shot him for petty theft? Actor #2 is likely to get shot, jumping into a situation he has no knowledge of. Both of them make the rest of us look bad.

Yo Mama
July 20, 2009, 10:48 AM
Also you should never draw your weapon unless you are prepared to pull the trigger

Incorrect. In AZ we just passed a defensive display law, that if you do feel your in danger and pull your gun, the perp changes their minds and leaves, your not in trouble.

A gun, just seeing a gun can prevent 99 percent of situations.

TexasRifleman
July 20, 2009, 10:51 AM
ncorrect. In AZ we just passed a defensive display law, that if you do feel your in danger and pull your gun, the perp changes their minds and leaves, your not in trouble.

A gun, just seeing a gun can prevent 99 percent of situations.

Well, in fairness he said "unless you are PREPARED to pull the trigger".

That is right. You pull it you better be prepared to use it. Not that you HAVE to shoot, but once you draw a gun you have to be prepared to use it, otherwise it's just decoration.

ezypikns
July 20, 2009, 11:14 AM
The second guy is fine.

When anyone comes upon a scene where somone is holding another person at gunpoint, how do you automatically know all the circimstances?

Even the Police have no idea who's who or what's what. What if the first fellow actually was a plainclothes Police officer? How do we know he's not?

If you're a peace officer it's your job to take care of the public, and sort out dangerous situations like this.

Please keep in mind that I am not saying that you should not draw and use your weapon under certain different circumstances.

There is a thread active now on THR concerning a citizen open carrying who probably saved several lives by using his weapon in the middle of an armed robbery. But he was as sure of the circumstances as he could be.

How can we be sure of our behavior under similar conditions?

Maybe we can't. But if you can use mental conditioning to imagine how you would react to someone threatening your life, maybe we can use the same techniques to imagine how we might confront a situation like this.

MisterMike
July 20, 2009, 12:13 PM
I hope that, in addition to debating this, we have all taken a lesson from this story--the authority to carry concealed does not make you a cop. Not only that, trying to act like a cop can get you prosecuted, injured, or killed.

I carry as a retired LEO in Illinois, a state that does not permit CCW, but which has provisions for the use of deadly force that generally reflect the law throughout the U.S. (note that I said "generally"--you need to know the laws where you live and carry). Our statutory law permits the use of deadly force only "to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony." There is only a very narrow provision in our law for a civilian to use deadly force in effecting the arrest of a felon: "A private person who makes, or assists another private person in making a lawful arrest is justified in the use of any force which he would be justified in using if he were summoned or directed by a peace officer to make such arrest, except that he is justified in the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm only when he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or another."

Again, I'm not suggesting that these standards apply anywhere other than Illinois, but they do approximate the law in a large number of states. The bottom line is that attempting to effect a citizen's arrest is always very tricky. Police officers generally have some protection from civil liability if they act reasonably and in good faith, but wrongly arrest someone. Most civilians do not enjoy that sort of immunity. Police officers generally are granted broad latitude in effecting an arrest, up to and including the use of deadly force. Most civilians can only employ deadly force if they are reasonably in fear of death or great bodily harm.

The bottom line? It's fine for a civilian to use a deadly weapon to defend himself or, in most cases, another. Once the bad guy's fleeing, it's much more tricky and could end badly for a civilian Dudley Do-Right.

KSDeputy
July 20, 2009, 03:24 PM
Myself, and many of my fellow retired peace officers, discussed scenarios like the one above. We all came to the conclusion that we would make excellent witnesses when local law enforcement arrived. Although catching the bad guy is in our blood, we no longer have arrest powers. We can make citizen's arrests, but should do so only in felony situations. We leave ourselves wide open to a civil lawsuit, unless we are very careful. Unless someone's life is in danger, our firearm should remain concealed. I would suggest the same guidelines for concealed carry permit holders, especially if they do not have the level of training that we do. Believe me, I know how difficult it is to not do something when you witness a crime happening. If no one's life is in danger, just be an excellent observer. Make mental notes of descriptions, then pass the information along to local law enforcement when they arrive. It's being smart and protecting yourself.

jon_in_wv
July 23, 2009, 06:40 PM
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

DawgsFan_07
July 23, 2009, 06:58 PM
I think the first guy was stupid, but not the second one. If you see somebody holding somebody else at gunpoint I'd think that's an appropriate time to act.

ezypikns
July 24, 2009, 12:06 AM
If you see somebody holding somebody else at gunpoint I'd think that's an appropriate time to act.

If you're in a situation (middle of an armed robbery, say), you may know who the bad guy(s) are. When you walk (or drive) up to a scene which you just described, you have absolutely no idea what's going on.

IdahoLT1
July 24, 2009, 03:00 AM
I think it would be easy to pick out a regular citizen from an off duty LEO. Their posture, their stance, the way they are acting and the commands they give could all be easy tell-tell signs.

rbernie
July 24, 2009, 09:32 AM
I think it would be easy to pick out a regular citizen from an off duty LEO. Their posture, their stance, the way they are acting and the commands they give could all be easy tell-tell signs. Bullfeathers.

More importantly - does posture and stance (with no other context) seem like a solid rationale to justify the use of deadly force? Not to me.

jon_in_wv
July 24, 2009, 01:05 PM
If you see somebody holding somebody else at gunpoint I'd think that's an appropriate time to act.

I can't believe some people still have this rationale!! Exercising you right to carry a concealed weapon should mean a little more responsible attitude that this. This is getting frustrating.

heviarti
July 24, 2009, 02:43 PM
Well, having seen the news report, the first guy was looking like a nozzle. hawaiian shirt, disorganized, grabasstic.. Didn't see the second guy. That being said, I'd have done *something*. In Idaho, CCW isn't just about firearms. I also carry an ASP. Sometimes I carry a knife and a sap as well. What can I say? I have enemies.

It's not BS that you can spot a cop. They even have an event at Defcon where you do just that. It's called 'Spot the Fed'. Cops have a bearing that's easily spotted. Placed deep cover agents... not so much.

then again I've been in some strange situations. I think I'd find something to do to stop someone from stealing, but the gun would likely not be my first choice. It seems to me that the sooner you let someone around you be victimized, the sooner you'll be victimized. Stop it now, or stop it later. Criminals are by definition recedivistic. Recedivism is curbed by beatings, or alternately having a pistol jammed in their face by someone they thought was a victim. With some of the trouble coming out of Nampa/Caldwell it's nice to remind people that lots of people are carrying.

TexasRifleman
July 24, 2009, 03:36 PM
It's not BS that you can spot a cop. They even have an event at Defcon where you do just that. It's called 'Spot the Fed'. Cops have a bearing that's easily spotted. Placed deep cover agents... not so much

Tell that to this cop that shot another cop. You sure you can always tell huh?

Want to rethink that?

29May09
An off-duty policeman was killed by a fellow officer last night in a horrifying case of mistaken identity.
Now New York police have launched a race investigation after Omar J Edwards, 25, died last night as he chased someone he found rummaging through his car.
New York Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said Edwards, who was a married father of two, had just gotten off work at about 10.30pm when he spotted a man going through his vehicle.

Edwards - who was black - called emergency services and began chasing the man.
The young father pulled his gun as he ran after the criminal - but did not fire it.
He was spotted by other officers in an unmarked car, who, thinking that Edwards was the criminal, immediately gave pursuit.
The officers yelled: ' Police! Stop! Drop it!' - and Edwards turned towards them, the gun still in his hand.
Commissioner Kelly said one of the officers - who is white - leapt from the car and fired six shots, hitting Edwards in the arm and chest.
Edwards was not wearing a bulletproof vest as he was off-duty. He died at 11.21pm at a hospital in Harlem.
Police only realised he was one of their own when they opened his shirt to find a Police Academy T-shirt underneath. His officer's shield was then found in his pocket.

ezypikns
July 24, 2009, 04:08 PM
Maybe call 911 FIRST.

withdrawn34
July 24, 2009, 04:42 PM
Great. Thanks to these fools - they've really helped our cause a ton with this incident

/sarcasm

:rolleyes:

Pweller
July 24, 2009, 04:51 PM
I think the best policy, as 2075 Rami stated, is don't get involved. Sounds bad, but I've found that nobody really wants your help unless they specifically ask for it. This is particularly true in situations that you know nothing about.

From my CCW class (in AZ, not that it really matters) it became clear to me that carrying can be a bigger liability than an advantage. There are so many legal issues surrounding CCW that can't really be covered in a one day classroom setting. I've had my ccw for about 2 years and haven't carried once. Before I would start carrying regularly, I would seriously study all of the laws involved and previous cases to know exactly what was within the scope of the law (again, going far beyond what was taught at the CCW class). There is a very narrow legal window when it is OK to draw a weapon. Stealing isn't one of them.

heviarti
July 25, 2009, 12:46 PM
Most police haven't been identifying police as enemies since childhood. The police officer is NOT here to help you, he is NOT your friend.

bigdog21
August 26, 2009, 06:08 AM
n NC there is no such thing as a citizens arrest.The CC instructor stressed to me heavily that there is a legel gray area concerning pulling your weapon where third party defense is concerned.There are too many things open to interpretation in a court of law.
If I took the time to weigh the legal implications before I acted the situation would be over.Clearly this guy did'nt think before he acted.Shouting police when you are not one is a big no-no.


Um citizens arrest does exist in statute in S.C.

SECTION 17-13-10. Circumstances where any person may arrest a felon or thief.

Upon (a) view of a felony committed, (b) certain information that a felony has been committed or (c) view of a larceny committed, any person may arrest the felon or thief and take him to a judge or magistrate, to be dealt with according to law.

SECTION 17-13-20. Additional circumstances where citizens may arrest; means to be used.

A citizen may arrest a person in the nighttime by efficient means as the darkness and the probability of escape render necessary, even if the life of the person should be taken, when the person:

(a) has committed a felony;

(b) has entered a dwelling house without express or implied permission;

(c) has broken or is breaking into an outhouse with a view to plunder;

(d) has in his possession stolen property; or

(e) being under circumstances which raise just suspicion of his design to steal or to commit some felony, flees when he is hailed.

DCR
August 26, 2009, 01:13 PM
Just remember...laws regarding "resisting/obstructing an arrest" don't apply in citizen arrests. In ID, where this incident took place, it is now a felony to resist with violence against a police officer, but the worst a BG will face against a citizen is battery, if anything at all.

Unless the crime's being perpetrated against you or your family, best off being a good witness and leaving the rest to the pro's.

IdahoLT1
August 26, 2009, 08:03 PM
totally forgot about this case. the first guy was arrested.


UPDATE:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/newsupdates/story/872330.html



Boise man charged with a felony for impersonating a police officer

Boise Police Department early Thursday morning arrested a man for impersonating a police officer and holding a gun on a robbery suspect.

Paul Brookhouse, 52, of Boise is charged with a felony from a July 17th incident in Downtown Boise.

Police say the suspect chased a suspect on foot and produced a handgun as he intervened in a theft. Police say Brookhouse said he was Boise Police Officer as he held the theft suspect at gunpoint.

Erik M
August 26, 2009, 08:23 PM
My instructor stressed that we should only draw when our life or the life of a s/o was in immediate danger. Then the 3 hour long video from the state attourney general basiclly told us all the laws that prohibit us from using deadly force for anything other than to protect that life from immediate deadly force would land us in jail. playing cop is serious business, and illegal.

If you enjoyed reading about "CITIZEN'S ARREST BY CCWers - Close Call" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!