Bikes (cycling) and guns


PDA






goColt
July 18, 2009, 10:13 PM
I found a couple of threads involving cycling and carrying but none really stayed on topic of recommended guns. So here is my attempt at it...

A month or so ago I decided to start biking to work. It's 7 miles one-way and part of it is through a not-so-nice neighborhood.

Now, I carry a Kel-Tec P3AT in my pocket but I am thinking I may need something with a little more oomph behind it both for two-legged as well as four-legged varmints. I've already had one 'run in' with some punk-a$$ urbanites who threw a plastic bottle full of some sorta sport drink at me which glanced off of my arm. I want to be better prepared for the next, possibly worse encounter.

I am thinking a compact 9x19 or .40 S&W. What comes to mind is a Kel-Tec PF9 or P-11 or maybe one of the Kahr's or even an XD. I am not a fan of Glocks, so I think those are out and I am not very familiar with Karh's. I love my Colt Defender but it is a little heavy. Also, I don't wanna drop a lot of coin on a gun right now.

So, I'd appreciate some suggestions especially from those who actually do cycle and carry.

I am pretty sure I'll be either open carrying or out-of-the-waistband carrying.

Thanks in advance for the help.

If you enjoyed reading about "Bikes (cycling) and guns" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
chris in va
July 18, 2009, 10:26 PM
I say stick with the P3AT.

Phydeaux642
July 18, 2009, 10:55 PM
Right now I carry a S&W 642 in a Smartcarry when I ride my bicycle, although, a couple of weeks ago I had a small situation that ,thankfully, didn't turn into anything but it got me to thinking that maybe I could use a few more rounds available to me.

I had had a real bad day (with the the next few to get worse when some moron stole my commuter bicycle worth about $1,100) when, as I was leaving a restaurant parking lot, I had an idiot make a comment about how fat I am. Hey, I know I'm fat, but I don't need some mouth-breathing half-wit to point it out to me. Well, out of character, I decided to tell him that I thought he was "number one", if you know what I mean. At this, he goes ballistic and starts cussing me something fierce. I believe that he would have come at me if he would have had a way to get out of that van. He was with three other guys and thankfully they just kept driving.

As I was riding off, I was thinking that if all four of them had decided to do something stupid that maybe my five rounds might be insufficient, and if they were armed then I would be screwed anyways. The next day I started searching for a small auto that is extremely reliable but carries quite a few more rounds than my j-frame.

It has proven to be much more difficult than I thought it would be. I have a Kel-tec P11 that I don't trust. It has never run reliably. I've tried to like a Glock G26 but it just doesn't fit. Kahrs don't hold that much more than my J-frame and are more money than I would pay for what you get. The XD9sc just seems blocky to me for some reason even though I love my 4" service model. The Glock G19 fits me pretty well for some reason but is on the edge of being to large to comfortably carry on a bicycle. I have a CZ RAMI that is a terrific gun that may fit the bill if I can keep that beaver tail from jabbing me while riding.

For now it is still the 642. I picked up a new bike yesterday and will soon be riding again after I get it commuterized. Maybe I'll just have a New York reload in the form of another 642 or 442. I have a couple of others just waiting to be put into service.

MattTheHat
July 19, 2009, 12:13 AM
My cycle has a rather large motor attached, but when I carry on it, I'm carrying a 9mm XDm. I figure 20 rounds of 9x19 can't be all bad.

-Matt

loop
July 19, 2009, 07:29 AM
At one time I was a professional racer. I trained about four to five hours a day in the saddle.

What you need to learn is that cyclists are targets, but the use of lethal force is not justified for a water balloon or golf ball tossed your way.

Only one time in years of training and tens of thousands of miles of training and racing, only once was there an event that may have justified lethal force. We inadvertently rode into a riot. A rider was attacked with baseball bats and a golf club. Foolishly, I and two other riders went back to confront the attackers, who had the guy pushed up against a park playground jungle gym. I went straight to the biggest guy who appeared to be a leader and demanded our friend's release. Long story short - it was granted and we rode off in tact.

A gun is to save your life or someone else's life. It is not there to avenge someone tossing a sport drink in your face.

Cyclists are targets. Two Tour de France riders were shot with pellet or BB guns recently. They never even slowed down.

To be blunt - grow some huevos. A gun is for life-threatening situations, not because you choose to ride a bicycle in a bad part of town.

I've always carried everywhere I go, but I never carried on a bike. It is extra weight.

For 13 years I rode 500 miles a week.

If you want to carry on your bike pick something very light.

BTW, if you are portly and riding you aren't a serious cyclist.

Bad drivers are a much more serious threat when on the road than being mugged.

goColt
July 19, 2009, 08:04 AM
At one time I was a professional racer. I trained about four to five hours a day in the saddle.

What you need to learn is that cyclists are targets, but the use of lethal force is not justified for a water balloon or golf ball tossed your way.

Only one time in years of training and tens of thousands of miles of training and racing, only once was there an event that may have justified lethal force. We inadvertently rode into a riot. A rider was attacked with baseball bats and a golf club. Foolishly, I and two other riders went back to confront the attackers, who had the guy pushed up against a park playground jungle gym. I went straight to the biggest guy who appeared to be a leader and demanded our friend's release. Long story short - it was granted and we rode off in tact.

A gun is to save your life or someone else's life. It is not there to avenge someone tossing a sport drink in your face.

Cyclists are targets. Two Tour de France riders were shot with pellet or BB guns recently. They never even slowed down.

To be blunt - grow some huevos. A gun is for life-threatening situations, not because you choose to ride a bicycle in a bad part of town.

I've always carried everywhere I go, but I never carried on a bike. It is extra weight.

For 13 years I rode 500 miles a week.

If you want to carry on your bike pick something very light.

BTW, if you are portly and riding you aren't a serious cyclist.

Bad drivers are a much more serious threat when on the road than being mugged.
loop, you've completely missed my point and once again a thread about bikes and guns is going off-topic. I am not talking about shooting someone over a sport drink. I am looking for a larger caliber and larger capacity gun for if/when I encounter something more serious than what I described as already happened.

Also, please keep your comments about "grow some huevos' and "if you are portly and riding you aren't a serious cyclist" to yourself. I don't need help in either regard and I am not asking for your opinion on either subject. Let's stick to guns, huh? Remember, this is THE HIGH ROAD...try taking it.

scottaschultz
July 19, 2009, 08:39 AM
I am looking for a larger caliber and larger capacity gun for if/when I encounter something more serious than what I described as already happened.
I know you're not going to like this, but with all due respect, if you genuinely believe that your 7 mile route is so dangerous that you feel it necessary to carry a lethal weapon, you need to either change your route or change your mode of transportation.

I applaud you effort to become more physically fit, but why put yourself at risk? If it is that dangerous to ride to work, you might want to ask yourself if it is really worth it. You may want to consider riding after work or on weekends. You can put a bike rack on your car and drive somewhere safe.

If you are not willing (or unable) to change your route, you might want to consider going back to driving to work and getting a set of rollers and ride your bike indoors. It takes a little practice to get your balance right, but this way you can ride to your heart's content and not have to worry about being shot or assaulted! This way you can also ride in any weather, rain or shine, 365 days a year.

Scott

ChaoSS
July 19, 2009, 08:41 AM
No, goColt, he didn't miss your point. You said someone threw a bottle at you, and you wanted to be prepared (with a gun) for the next, possibly worse, encounter. If you don't mean that you would draw a gun on someone for something so trivial, then try not to sound like you would.

jacquesmm
July 19, 2009, 12:33 PM
It looks like this is about bicycles not motorbikes.
My son and I ride a lot and it can be dangerous: idiots push you off the road and throw stuff at you.
However, I have not seen one situation in which I could have used a gun.
I write "could", not "would".
If someone pushes you off the road, you crash but can not shoot: the danger is over. You may be hurt but you are not defending yourself.
The danger is that if I carried, you would get so justifiably angry that I could shoot the bad driver.
I have been in that mood a few times, unless you ride your bike, you can't understand.
That is why, despite having a CCW permit, I do not carry on my bike.

Off topic? No, you asked what to carry, I answer nothing.

chris in va
July 19, 2009, 01:58 PM
I've always carried everywhere I go, but I never carried on a bike. It is extra weight

That's all fine and good. But I'm guessing you weren't a mountain biker that rode into some pretty deep woods, or out of the way places where LEO's just can't get to. Then there's the animal aspect.

I got attacked by a dog while riding on a road one day. Fortunately I was able to throw a well-placed kick into it's jaw and rode off, but if it had managed to pull me off the bike or make me wreck, then what?

Necessity for self protection doesn't stop when you throw a leg over a bike.

lions
July 19, 2009, 02:51 PM
If you want to carry on your bike pick something very light.

He isn't on the Tour de France, nothing wrong with a little weight resistance!:D

A Kel-Tec PF9 or P11 sounds right for your situation, and they're even fairly light.

goColt
July 19, 2009, 02:51 PM
Well, thanks to chris in va, Phydeaux642 and MattTheHat for their suggestions. They seem to be the only ones who can make on-topic posts. And although not on-topic exactly, at least scottaschultz had something sorta related to what I was talking about.

Now I remember why I don't post on THR very often.

I guess I'll just get some advice/suggestions someplace else.

lead-inspector
July 19, 2009, 03:21 PM
You mentioned another revolver(s) already owned. It would make sense to me just to get a holster for it and carry 2, 5 shot pistols (maybe a speed loader or speed strip?)

I have a rule that I ALWAYS follow: If I think I NEED to be armed where I am going I DON'T go. Avoid problem areas.

Steve

banjoman2255
July 19, 2009, 03:27 PM
Give the guy a break. The man can ride his bicycle through any neighborhood he wants, and what's wrong with trying to exercise. My dad rides over 200 miles a week on his bicycle. His buddy carries a small .32 at all times.

noskilz
July 19, 2009, 03:32 PM
My, my, goColt, we're surely sensitive here.

My two cents: riding a bike can be very dangerous. There is definitely road rage out there. A gun can be very handy if someone exits their vehicle and wants to exact revenge for the some slight from a cyclist. You are not riding into a firefight. You need a weapon to defend yourself and get out of there. You have no cover. You are exposed. You are usually outweighed by at least a 2000 pound vehicle (unless of course, they're driving a Smart Car, in which case, you might have them at a disadvantage.) Getting into a high capacity firefight is a losing proposition. A 642 would seem to be ideal in my book.

If your chosen route is really that dangerous, ride farther and take a better, safer route.

scottaschultz
July 19, 2009, 03:38 PM
Now I remember why I don't post on THR very often.

I guess I'll just get some advice/suggestions someplace else.
With all due respect...

Uh oh, you know you're in trouble when a post begins like that!

This just confirms my assertion that people don't really post things on forums looking for opinions when all they really want is affirmations that they made the right decision. If someone disagrees with you, then they obviously don't understand your circumstances or appreciate your situation or are simply being argumentative.

You admit that you have already been "assaulted" on your way to work. Knowing this, I don't understand why you insist on riding your bike to work. At 14 miles round trip, it certainly can't be financially motivated. From a physical fitness standpoint, while any exercise is good, this very limited amount of exertion probably won't yield significant results unless you are making other lifestyle changes in your overall exercise and eating habits.

Seriously, if you are so fearful of your ride to work that you feel it necessary to carry a lethal weapon, why on earth would you continue to do it, especially if you have other choices?

Scott

Cosmoline
July 19, 2009, 03:38 PM
I've been riding for years and carrying. My observations are as follows:

--WB carry is troublesome because the hips move around a lot and create friction with a tight belt. Plus with cycling clothing you often HAVE no waistband as such.

--Fanny packs are OK but are easy to leave behind. Worse case in a store!

--Pocket carry works if you have big pockets, but I find in the seated position access isn't all that great. JACKET pocket carry is much better, but obviously requires a jacket.

--On-frame carry lets you pack a lot more heat but it also creates risks when you leave the bike unattended. Thieves love to ride up, snag unlocked bikes, and ride off on them. Leaving you the clunker they came in on. With a firearm on board the bike that got stolen it opens up a whole new dimension of trouble.

--On-frame/off frame carry is great in theory but I've never seen a system that works. Maybe someone could invent it. To be able to swap between the two without attracting attention is hard to pull off. Plus you run the risk of forgetting it.

--Shoulder holsters work pretty well. While somewhat slower on the draw for ordinary carry, if you rig it right the harness will be excellent for the leaning-forward posture of the bike. I have a custom rig worked up to put the wheelgun canted downward right where my hand can grab it. A cover shirt over this offers perfect concealment. This is the system I've been riding with every day for about two years now during the summer. In the winter I swap to jacket carry because I wear large baggy jackets in the cold.

BTW, if you are portly and riding you aren't a serious cyclist.

Don't be too quick to judge by appearances boyo. I'm pretty portly and I ride year round 6 or 7 days a week in Anchorage Alaska. I ride through conditions that would break a lower 48 fairweather skinny mcfancypants rider and leave him weeping.

To be blunt - grow some huevos. A gun is for life-threatening situations, not because you choose to ride a bicycle in a bad part of town.

You don't think cyclists run into life-threatening situations? I rode up in the immediate aftermath of a driveby a few years back. The guy was sitting there on the curb with a bullet in his gut.

Seriously, if you are so fearful of your ride to work that you feel it necessary to carry a lethal weapon, why on earth would you continue to do it, especially if you have other choices?

By your logic we would never leave the house. You should not be forced to move or change your lifestyle because of the threat of thugs. If you think a motor vehicle offers you protection from bullets, you're very naive.

Claude Clay
July 19, 2009, 03:52 PM
get the p-11 working.

send it back to K-T. turn around time is fast and they get it right the more tries you give them.

the kicker for me is--having a gun does not mean that now it is safer for you to go someplace that was previously questionable. if it is your job to go there that is a reason--though many will question why someone would want a job that required them to be exposed to such imminent danger as to need a weapon.

cause you can in America go anywhere don't mean its the smart thing to do.

Cosmoline
July 19, 2009, 03:53 PM
This thread is interesting. A valid question is met with two well-known types. The "serious" cyclist who goes out of his way to scoff at lesser peddlers, and the motor vehicle commuter who thinks it's goofy to keep riding a bike when you run risks doing so. My response is simple:

I RIDE

c ya!

rust collector
July 19, 2009, 03:54 PM
I ride a couple thousand miles a year, and have been very fortunate. Others have had bottles thrown at them, bitten by dogs or been threatened in other ways. If you don't feel vulnerable out there, you don't get it.

Carrying a gun does not mean we are looking for trouble any more than a motorist or pedestrian. Cyclists may be at a disadvantage, but if we were quitters, we'd have done that long ago.

I carry a P3AT or LCP in a pocket holster in a jersey pocket. I hope never to need it, but it works well in this role. A second mag would also fit in a seat bag easily. Don't even know it's there. Cel phone is in another pocket or strap pouch on the camelbak.

RobNDenver
July 19, 2009, 03:57 PM
My wife and I bike every weekend, along a very nice trail through the heart of Denver. It often is populated by urban campers, drinking and panhandling. I carry my P239 in a Mountain Hardware fanny pack. I use a Desantis Nemesis to cover it inside the pocket where its stored. I've never had to reach for it when riding, but I am much more comfortable having it and not needing it, than the alternative.

scottaschultz
July 19, 2009, 04:20 PM
By your logic we would never leave the house. You should not be forced to move or change your lifestyle because of the threat of thugs. If you think a motor vehicle offers you protection from bullets, you're very naive.
The guy rides 7 miles through what he calls "not-so-nice" neighborhoods. He has already been assaulted and also says he is fearful of 4-legged predators. His choice of this mode of transportation seems to be totally voluntary so if it was me, I wouldn't be doing riding a bike under those circumstances. There are safer choices so why go looking for trouble? Just because you can ride through that neighborhood, doesn't mean you have to.

I agree with Claude Clay. I call it the Speedo theory... just because as Speedo comes in your size doesn't mean you have to wear one!

Scott

Phydeaux642
July 19, 2009, 04:47 PM
What you need to learn is that cyclists are targets, but the use of lethal force is not justified for a water balloon or golf ball tossed your way.

I think a golf ball thrown at me from a vehicle moving at 50mph could be considered a deadly weapon.

To be blunt - grow some huevos.

My, my. How in the world do you even ride a bike with those giant huevos? Don't they get in the way of pedaling?

BTW, if you are portly and riding you aren't a serious cyclist.


You have shown yourself to be an arrogant goof with that statement. During the time that I was commuting by bike exclusively I weighed about 250 at 5'8". I was riding 900-1,000 miles a month, sometimes in amazing thunderstorms and sometimes in 10 degree weather. Is that serious enough for ya?

I have a rule that I ALWAYS follow: If I think I NEED to be armed where I am going I DON'T go. Avoid problem areas.

What do you do in the house all day? You NEVER know when trouble will confront you.

Now I remember why I don't post on THR very often.

Yes, goColt there are a few arrogant bad boys that roam the halls of THR.

lions
July 19, 2009, 06:40 PM
Seriously, if you are so fearful of your ride to work that you feel it necessary to carry a lethal weapon, why on earth would you continue to do it, especially if you have other choices?

So I take it you don't CC? Put in "life" instead of "ride to work" and what do you have? I guess everyone who CCs should work from home, live in a bunker, send out for groceries, never leave the house, etc. After all, we have other choices.:barf:

Cosmoline
July 19, 2009, 07:31 PM
There are safer choices so why go looking for trouble? Just because you can ride through that neighborhood, doesn't mean you have to.

Lawfully riding down public roads is NOT "looking for trouble." This is all about the freedom to make choices for ourselves rather than being bullied or scared onto highways because a commute runs through a bad part of town. We either own our streets or someone else will take them over. Cyclists are uniquely situated to observe and help to safeguard streets. We see everything and are moving slow enough to really get to know when things aren't quite right. It's a positive public good to have cyclists commuting in neighborhoods. That doesn't mean I would ever go looking for a fight. I am a proud coward when it comes to that. But to suggest we have to concede whole neighborhoods to criminals is outrageous. Absolutely outrageous.

ChaoSS
July 20, 2009, 02:12 AM
Phydeaux642, you may or may not be right about whether a golf ball thrown at 50 mph is lethal force (I doubt it is) but what are you going to do, open fire into the back of the car that threw it at you? You aren't defending yourself in these cases, you are exacting revenge.

As for dogs, there are better ways to handle them. I'd like to know what certain people on here would do to dogs? Would they gun down any dog that starts barking at them? In certain neighborhoods, (especially the neighborhoods described as not so good) that's a good way to get shot. Furthermore, although it's normally illegal to let dogs roam, you are opening yourself up to civil litigation, as well as legal problems, if you fire a weapon in an incorporated area when you really aren't in any danger.

So, maybe you shoot the dog when it's already bit you? That's good, you're riding a bike, or you just fell off of it, and you are trying to keep a dog off of you, and you want to start discharging a firearm. How many people here have practiced shooting a gun while being attacked by a dog? I'd wager none, but I'd guarantee not many.

Why would you give recommendations to someone who indicates that he would use a gun when he shouldn't be using one? Of course, there are situations where a gun is good to have, and I see no reason why a cyclist shouldn't carry a gun, but some people are making it painfully obvious that they should not be carrying guns.

Nematocyst
July 20, 2009, 02:36 AM
My bicycle is my main vehicle. I get around using it about 50X more than in my truck,
which I only use when I need to haul something large or get out of town.

I currently carry OWB, but am planning to go to a shoulder holster next year.

lions
July 20, 2009, 02:50 AM
Chaoss:
...but some people are making it painfully obvious that they should not be carrying guns.

He told us a situation which served as a wake up call to make him want to change his CC pistol. He said he already carries a pistol and he clearly didn't shoot whoever threw the bottle at him. He didn't say he wanted a bigger gun to go back and "teach those punks a lesson". He just wants to be prepared, he isn't declaring war. I don't see what he did or said to make you decide he shouldn't have a gun.

How many people here have practiced shooting a gun while being attacked by a dog?
Is that a qualification for concealed carry? I guess I just don't see why you have decided that he shouldn't carry a gun. Maybe I've misunderstood your post as I believe you misunderstood the OP's.

ChaoSS
July 20, 2009, 03:04 AM
He told us a situation which served as a wake up call to make him want to change his CC pistol. He said he already carries a pistol and he clearly didn't shoot whoever threw the bottle at him. He didn't say he wanted a bigger gun to go back and "teach those punks a lesson". He just wants to be prepared, he isn't declaring war. I don't see what he did or said to make you decide he shouldn't have a gun.No, he said he needed to be better prepared for situations that might be more dangerous, implying that a situation like the one he described might also be serious enough to warrant a gun.

Is that a qualification for concealed carry? I guess I just don't see why you have decided that he shouldn't carry a gun. Maybe I've misunderstood your post as I believe you misunderstood the OP's.Of course it isn't. However, if someone is going to carry a gun to defend themselves from a dog while on a bike, they need to think this one through. When do they think they are going to use said gun, and are they really going to be able to use it when that line is crossed without putting the whole neighborhood in danger? Furthermore, would their needs be better served through other methods of dealing with dogs?

I don't like the idea of some of these people carrying guns, to be honest. Carrying a gun is a responsibility, and if you are going to do it, you should know when you are going to use it. I see it sort of in the same way as if someone came in here talking about how they are tired of getting cut off by other drivers, and wanting to know if we would recommend a hand gun or shotgun to deal with his problem.

coloradokevin
July 20, 2009, 06:36 AM
Wow, this has sure turned into a far more controversial thread than I would have expected. I didn't really get the impression that the OP was planning to shoot someone over a sports drink, but rather that he wanted to be prepared if a more serious/life threatening even occurred!

Personally, I'm not a real serious cyclist, but I do ride a lot (I'm more of a mountain biker myself, but still put about 15-20 road miles per day on my full-suspension knobby-tired bike). For me, I'm not all that concerned about traveling in an ultra-light configuration, particularly given the bike that I'm riding. I do try to minimize unecessary weight, but I also always carry some sort of water bladder hydration pack when I'm riding (I like the Camelbaks better than I like water bottles). Anyway, I have one very small and very lightweight camelbak that I sometimes use while cycling. It isn't really designed to hold anything except water, but I've found that it does a great job of also holding a Glock 27 (9+1 rounds of .40 S&W).

Obviously a setup where the gun is in your backpack isn't going to be a real "fast draw" type of rig, but I still think it is better than nothing when you are out on the roads/bike trails.

scottaschultz
July 20, 2009, 07:12 AM
Lawfully riding down public roads is NOT "looking for trouble." This is all about the freedom to make choices for ourselves rather than being bullied or scared onto highways because a commute runs through a bad part of town. We either own our streets or someone else will take them over. Cyclists are uniquely situated to observe and help to safeguard streets. We see everything and are moving slow enough to really get to know when things aren't quite right. It's a positive public good to have cyclists commuting in neighborhoods. That doesn't mean I would ever go looking for a fight. I am a proud coward when it comes to that. But to suggest we have to concede whole neighborhoods to criminals is outrageous. Absolutely outrageous.
Well maybe I am just a moron, but how exactly is riding your bike through a "not-so-nice neighborhood" taking back the streets? How does his presence help "safeguard" the streets? I do see LEOs on bicycle and horseback, but how is the ordinary "civilian" helping accomplish this in any way?

The OP is apparently doing this just for health reasons, not because he has no other choices. But ultimately, it is his choice.

If you really want to show these "thugs" you mean business, why not open carry? Let them see you are armed and I'd be willing to bet that will result in a much smoother commute! There have been threads on THR about the legality of OC in Indiana, but it would be best if the OP checks with his local PD/Sheriff Dept. just to make sure.

I don't take legal advice from stangers on an Internet forum and neither should he!

Scott

Mp7
July 20, 2009, 07:16 AM
your current ccw should be okay....

or...

http://www.gorillafights.com/photos/f85232a7c761a381f043354612b2f719.jpg

loop
July 20, 2009, 07:54 AM
I find GoColt's response very interesting.

Before responding though, I would like to point out my credentials. I was not just a professional racer, but also owned a bicycle shop. For the person who mentioned mountain biking, I am a co-founder of the National Off Road Bicycling Association. I built the first mountain bike in Arizona. I ran the first mountain bike race outside of **********. I know a bit about the sport.

As to shooting, I am an NRA certified instructor and a CCW instructor with more than 500 hours of training. I was also a law enforcement certified instructor.

As to my comments about portly, I've never met a serious cyclist who was overweight. I've met many recreational and commuter bicycle riders who were overweight. Even 20 years after retiring from the sport I am still lighter than my recommended body weight.

As for dogs, there is an excellent product called Halt! Dog Repellent, that is lightweight, easy to carry and has a pocket clip built in. It costs about $6 or 7. There is a can of it sitting less than three feet from me right now. It is available in almost every bicycle shop. It works very well even on the most determined evil canine. I use it now so I can walk my 7-pound terrier without fear of him being eaten by a neighborhood pet.

What has not been mentioned is that the vast majority of dangers faced by cyclists have nothing to do with aggressive idiots. Over the years I've lost many friends to motorists. People making right turns and cutting you off is my biggest complaint. I lost one friend to a logging truck that flattened him with its rear wheels by doing so.

Cars crossing the road and underestimating your speed is another. I once laid a bike down and slid under a semi trailer because he did not understand I was going 60+ mph downhill and pulled out in front of me. I lost pretty much all the skin on the right side, but it wasn't really the truck driver's fault. He just couldn't conceive of a human-powered vehicle going faster than cars down the hill.

I've been hit by eggs, spit, bottles, extended rear view mirrors and every other sort of odd object you can imagine. In every case, reacting aggressively would have been a mistake.

I even had my butt spanked while standing on the pedals to climb a mountain. Yup, I never did do seven miles to work. I did 30 miles climbing 5,000 feet up a mountain with winning foremost in my mind.

I never rode 14 miles a day. I rode 500 miles a week and took one day off the bike every week. I kept a written log of every mile. As far back as the '70s I computerized my records.

If you want to carry a gun on your bike that's fine - carry a gun. Bear in mind it is for the same purposes you carry in your auto. Not to spray and pray at an attacking dog or some yutz who tosses a golf ball out the window. It is to PREVENT or neutralize an immediate threat. The golf ball is long gone. Now that you are aware of better ways to neutralize and attacking dog you will be liable for any consequences to shooting.

If they run you off the road and then come after you with baseball bats, then you have a right to self defense.

Nothing here has demonstrated that anyone here has ever had an actual need for self defense while cycling. Instead it has shown a desire to exercise some macho.

What strikes me as really odd about this subject is that if I'm wearing pants I'm carrying two guns. And, I don't need to ask anyone which guns or of what type they should be.

Arrogant? It is incredibly arrogant to consider yourself a cyclist when all you ride is a few miles a day. It is astoundingly arrogant to consider yourself properly prepared to carry a concealed gun when you don't have a clue what kind of gun to carry.

Last, but not least, KT has the best service department I've ever dealt with. It is shockingly good.

GoWolfpack
July 20, 2009, 10:02 AM
It is incredibly arrogant to consider yourself a cyclist when all you ride is a few miles a day. It is astoundingly arrogant to consider yourself properly prepared to carry a concealed gun when you don't have a clue what kind of gun to carry.

What possible difference can it make whether he calls himself a cyclist or not? Does the definition of "cyclist" seriously make a difference to the question of whether and what type of firearm he should carry on his bicycle? Really?

Poeple carry because they don't get to choose when trouble comes calling. Why would somebody want to carry in a car when they can just drive away from whatever trouble comes? The OP came here to find recommendations from people who already had experience carrying firearms with them while biking. Asking what type of gun worked best for them doesn't make him unprepared to carry.

lions
July 20, 2009, 11:05 AM
chaossNo, he said he needed to be better prepared for situations that might be more dangerous, implying that a situation like the one he described might also be serious enough to warrant a gun.

He is not implying what you say he is, you are inferring it, and you are doing so incorrectly at that. Read what he said in a reply to loop:

goColtI am not talking about shooting someone over a sport drink. I am looking for a larger caliber and larger capacity gun for if/when I encounter something more serious than what I described as already happened.


And again, I think you have misread the situation.
I see it sort of in the same way as if someone came in here talking about how they are tired of getting cut off by other drivers, and wanting to know if we would recommend a hand gun or shotgun to deal with his problem.
I see it sort of in the same way as if he is now thinking what if the bottle had knocked him off the bike and they tried to mug him.

loopNothing here has demonstrated that anyone here has ever had an actual need for self defense while cycling.

You're right, and that means that nothing could ever happen so he should stop worrying about it and never carry a gun. What do any of us really need a gun for anyway when we have other options and are unlikely to need it?

loop:
It is astoundingly arrogant to consider yourself properly prepared to carry a concealed gun when you don't have a clue what kind of gun to carry.

The man is asking for suggestions, read the handgun forums and tell me how many members are astoundingly arrogant because they don't know every type of gun out there that might work for them. Read your post and his again and tell me who is "astoundingly arrogant", the guy asking for advice or the guy touting his achievements and telling everyone they can't call themselves cyclists because they aren't professional enough. He wants to ride his bike to work, is that somehow personally offensive to you? If not then calm down and see if we can answer a simple question.

BTin
July 20, 2009, 11:30 AM
Wow,

In the spirit of helping others, instead of this debate about riding on two wheels, here is my plan:

I don't commute (unfortunately) because of circumstances, and I don't ride nearly as much as some folks have bragged about; but I ride about 100-200 miles a week with spandex on. :)

I am going to get a Glock 26 or a XD9 subcompact soon, and carry it in the back pocket of a cycling jersey in a pocket holster. I think it will be important to get a corrosion resistant pistol, get a water resistant holster to keep sweat off of the gun, and wipe it down daily. I will just have to reach around my back for the draw, so it will be a fast draw, and it will stay with me at all times, on or off the bike. I think being able to quickly get off of the bike and keeping the gun is a good advantage.

Just the same as any time I CCW, I don't foresee a problem while I am cycling, but those situations that I don't foresee are the exact reason I want to be ready to defend myself. Just like Thomas Jefferson's walks, my gun will be a great bicycling companion.

middy
July 20, 2009, 11:36 AM
Arrogant? It is incredibly arrogant to consider yourself a cyclist when all you ride is a few miles a day. It is astoundingly arrogant to consider yourself properly prepared to carry a concealed gun when you don't have a clue what kind of gun to carry.
Wow. Welcome to the list. :(

1858rem
July 20, 2009, 11:39 AM
can you really carry a rifle slung over your back on a motorcycle like in Mp7's picture?

middy
July 20, 2009, 11:40 AM
I am going to get a Glock 26 or a XD9 subcompact soon, and carry it in the back pocket of a cycling jersey in a pocket holster.
Landing on it could really mess up your spine. I think a chest holster would be the best way to carry on a bike.

Splitzx
July 20, 2009, 11:44 AM
It's like I walked into a bar in here, full of arrogant people full of one sided opinions and BS so deep I'll need to put my boots on.

I ride a bike. I mostly ride mountain bike trail, sometimes freeride my mountain bike in a urban setting. I carry a gun, because of feral animals, and feral humans.

I don't see how riding my bike is any different from walking down the street or in Target, I'll be carrying regardless of the situation. If you carry sometime, why not carry all the time. If you have made up your mind that you will be ready for any situation, anytime, and have convinced yourself you are capable and ready to take someone's life when threatened with the loss of your own, why only take part in this decision part time?



Now onto topic. Camelback makes 2 rigs specifically for concealed carry. They make both a fanny pack and backpack with a velcro concealed holster. I wear a camelback 100% of the time in the saddle, so it's an easy choice. The models are the Goblin for the fannypack and the Demon for the backpack.
You can fit up to a full size 1911 in the backpack and not notice it.

BTin
July 20, 2009, 11:58 AM
Splitzx,

Do you get condensation or sweat on the pistol? How quick is the access to the pistol?

They don't seem to sell those anymore. Do you have a link or a different model?

Thanks

scottaschultz
July 20, 2009, 01:07 PM
can you really carry a rifle slung over your back on a motorcycle like in Mp7's picture?
Check the open carry laws in your jurisdiction for the answer. Like I said, an Internet forum is the LAST place you should look for legal advice!

Scott

Cosmoline
July 20, 2009, 01:12 PM
Well maybe I am just a moron, but how exactly is riding your bike through a "not-so-nice neighborhood" taking back the streets?

Simple. Nice people riding through iffy neighborhoods help make those neighborhoods more nice. Criminals do not like operating where there are people watching them.

The OP is apparently doing this just for health reasons, not because he has no other choices. But ultimately, it is his choice.

Exactly *HIS* choice. And nobody should be avoiding a public road because of potential thuggery. That's not the same as looking for a fight, anymore than opting to remain in a bad neighborhood is looking for a fight.

Nothing here has demonstrated that anyone here has ever had an actual need for self defense while cycling.

Did you miss the part where I came upon the aftermath of a drive by? Are you suggesting that bicycles are immune from crime and other risks? That dogs don't maul cyclists? Heck, up here BROWN BEAR have nailed a few of us.

Cosmoline
July 20, 2009, 01:17 PM
I've never met a serious cyclist who was overweight.

You mean a serious RACING cyclist in competition, I assume. I commute at twenty below zero, which is quite serious. My eyeball froze shut one time. I'll wager that never happened to Lance. I've been car free for several years now, so when I want to go to the Costco I have to haul my portly self seven miles over there, fill the trailer, and haul a hundredweight of goods back home. When I started back on the bike I topped out at nearly 450 lbs. That's like riding with two other riders on you, which is also something old Lance never had to contend with. I wonder how far he would get at that weight. Or how well he'd be treated by arrogant jerks in the LBS's.

In my book, anyone with the guts to get on the bicycle and go anywhere in this country deserves respect as a cyclist. Even the portly and old among us face ridicule, cars, trucks, and a positively hostile road system. We ought not to be attacking each other like this. Just as we shouldn't be attacking someone with perfectly valid questions re. carrying a firearm. Simply because you never needed one decades ago when you raced doesn't mean a commuter on today's streets shouldn't be carrying. Nor does it give you any right to deride us because you built the first mountain bike in Arizona lord knows how many decades ago. You either get out there and ride or you don't, that's it.

consider yourself properly prepared to carry a concealed gun when you don't have a clue what kind of gun to carry.

The purpose of this forum is to ask such questions. It's arrogant to assume you already know the best type of firearm. A wise person will always be open to new ideas, and always be willing to ask "stupid" questions.

I am an NRA certified instructor and a CCW instructor with more than 500 hours of training. I was also a law enforcement certified instructor.

If so, then you really shouldn't have needed me to remind you of this.

John E.
July 20, 2009, 01:18 PM
What was the OP's question again?

I'd say that the Kel-tec would be fine - I can't say I like the gun in pocket idea, or open carrying, while on a bike.

How about a chest holster?

http://www.survivalsheath.com/holsters/index.htm

Cosmoline
July 20, 2009, 01:35 PM
It's hard to conceal a chest holster unless you button up all the time even on the bike. But if you're open carrying it's just about perfect. I wonder if there's a way to have a tear-away front panel on a jersey or something.

scottaschultz
July 20, 2009, 01:50 PM
My quote:
Well maybe I am just a moron, but how exactly is riding your bike through a "not-so-nice neighborhood" taking back the streets?

Simple. Nice people riding through iffy neighborhoods help make those neighborhoods more nice. Criminals do not like operating where there are people watching them.

Well isn't that being all warm and fuzzy! Now who's being naive? A member of an organized gang would just as soon blow your head off as give you the time of day. They have no respect for human life. To them, a cyclist is probably just easy prey.

And nobody should be avoiding a public road because of potential thuggery. That's not the same as looking for a fight, anymore than opting to remain in a bad neighborhood is looking for a fight.
Nobody? A smart person would avoid it! The OP has already admitted this is a "not-so-nice" neighborhood and he has already had a bad experience there. Going back is like giving your father a razor strop and saying, Here, beat me with this!" Why would you intentionally go back to a place where you know you are likely to be assaulted again?

Scott

Cosmoline
July 20, 2009, 02:00 PM
They have no respect for human life. To them, a cyclist is probably just easy prey.

Whether he's easy or not depends on how well he's armed. But in general, and in my considerable experience riding in bad neighborhoods, criminals are like roaches and scatter at the gaze of the lawful. The more of us there are, the less they like being around. That's why they like to operate where the people are running scared.

A smart person would avoid it!

We're talking about THE PUBLIC ROADS here. No lawful man should ever have to leave them for fear of bandits. If you want to that's your problem.

Why would you intentionally go back to a place where you know you are likely to be assaulted again?

Because it's my right to travel the public roads. By your logic someone who gets broken into should just move or be blamed for "asking for trouble."

John E.
July 20, 2009, 02:07 PM
I wonder if there's a way to have a tear-away front panel on a jersey or something.


Could make one with needle, thread, and some velcro, I'd think...

Cosmoline
July 20, 2009, 02:12 PM
It's a crazy idea, but I like it! Sort of a superman carry.

scottaschultz
July 20, 2009, 02:17 PM
Whether he's easy or not depends on how well he's armed. But in general, and in my considerable experience riding in bad neighborhoods, criminals are like roaches and scatter at the gaze of the lawful. The more of us there are, the less they like being around. That's why they like to operate where the people are running scared."Raggedy Edge of the Verse" must be some fantasy land!

We're talking about THE PUBLIC ROADS here. No lawful man should ever have to leave them for fear of bandits. If you want to that's your problem.I am not talking about "bandits". I am talking about gang bangers who will shoot you for wearing the wrong colors on their turf!

Because it's my right to travel the public roads. By your logic someone who gets broken into should just move or be blamed for "asking for trouble."The town where I live used to have about 3,000 people and a flashing red light in the middle of town. Now there are over 20,000 people here with every major retailer and food chain you can think of and traffic jams during rush hour. Why do you think that is?

Scott

41magsnub
July 20, 2009, 02:29 PM
There is so much arrogance and bile in this thread I forgot what forum this is. Tone it down guys. The guy wants to carry a slightly higher capacity pistol on his bike, that's it.

Cosmoline
July 20, 2009, 02:44 PM
Why do you think that is?

They ran.

rbernie
July 20, 2009, 02:46 PM
Guys - I tried really hard to find a way to edit out the off-ropic responses and keep just the content that addressed the OPs question. In the end, I just couldn't get there.

This thread has too much rancor and too much bickering and not enough utility to keep open.

Sadly, this one is done.

If you enjoyed reading about "Bikes (cycling) and guns" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!