How do i convince a friend?


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HeavenlySword
July 19, 2009, 04:18 PM
I've successfully got her to acknowledge guns have a place in society, can reduce crime, but until recently she thought semiautomatic meant spray fire, and she still believes doggedly in universal registration, waiting periods, etc

I've made the arguments that governments tend to confiscate weapons, and she should know, being jewish, and that waiting periods don't reduce murders squat, etc.

I pointed out the example of Switzerland when explaining heavy weapons, such as Heavy Artillery, Heavy machine guns, Missile Launchers, tank destroyers are not a threat to society, and in fact, may protect society.

Neither of us is budging, although she did move from her previous position which was heavily against guns in general, and no longer advocates a system like 1934 GCA for everything.

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THE DARK KNIGHT
July 19, 2009, 05:02 PM
No need to point out examples of far away places like Switzerland. I'm in Jersey and just use the following argument. Would work for you in NY too.

" We've got registration. We've got an assault Weapons Ban. It's illegal to transport a loaded firearm, it's illegal to carry a concealed one, etc. etc. So how come all the thugs in [your nearest crap neighborhood] still have Uzis?"

I'll never forget, I was debating gun control with someone from one of the worse neighborhoods arouund here and they were a bit of a holy roller goin on and on about how the ghetto needs no guns etc. So I turned to the guy and said...

"you're right dude. I can just picture it now. When some crips are buying TEC9's out a car trunk, one guy must turn to the other and go, 'yo dawg, it's illegal to possess as handgun with a magazine that protrudes conspicuously beneath the pistol grip!' and then his other buddy must chime in, 'yeah, and possession of an automatic weapon is a felony violation of NJ title 13 chapter 54!'"

He was speechless. You should try that one.

Leanwolf
July 19, 2009, 05:21 PM
HEAVENLY SWORD - "I've made the arguments that governments tend to confiscate weapons, and she should know, being jewish, and that waiting periods don't reduce murders squat, etc."

You might rent the DVD of the flick, "DEFIANCE," and watch it with her. Based on a true story, plus, as you and she are in New York, the author of the book, moved to New York after WW II.

Might not make any difference, as she'll probably say, as a "true believer," "Yeah, well, that was long ago in a faraway place, and it can't ever happen here."

But..... give it a try.

L.W.

HeavenlySword
July 19, 2009, 10:04 PM
You might rent the DVD of the flick, "DEFIANCE," and watch it with her. Based on a true story, plus, as you and she are in New York, the author of the book, moved to New York after WW II.

Might not make any difference, as she'll probably say, as a "true believer," "Yeah, well, that was long ago in a faraway place, and it can't ever happen here."

But..... give it a try.

L.W.
Yea, i know, i even used some of Oleg Volk's work, like the sten smg and the question below

I wonder if this is what my grandparents prayed for in their final moments before being executed by the germans?

lions
July 19, 2009, 11:45 PM
...but until recently she thought semiautomatic meant spray fire...

Sounds to me like she needs to go to the range...

Any chance of that happening? I think it would really open her eyes.

sgb
July 19, 2009, 11:48 PM
Take her shooting and make it FUN

LIBERALS are more interested in self gratification than anything else. ;)

jimmy99
July 20, 2009, 12:02 AM
Knowledge is power. I agree take her shooting nothing to big.
don't want to make her gun shy.

akodo
July 20, 2009, 12:04 AM
tell her it really isn't about what makes us safe, it is about freedom to choose our path for ourselves

also tell her that governments have turned on their own people and killed 100 times more people with firearms in the 20th century than all the gun murders combined, and that the ONLY way to assure people have firearms to resist such actions is to maintian the right to bear arms even in the most peaceful and tolerant times, as a government turning intolerant to an ethnic group isn't going to say 'well, we better let em have guns now that we hate them!'

jimmy99
July 20, 2009, 12:07 AM
Slaves can't own guns

Black Knight
July 20, 2009, 12:33 AM
Take her to the range and bring along a semi-auto or two. You should bring along a 22 or maybe even rent or borrow a couple if possible. Good luck.

HeavenlySword
July 20, 2009, 12:59 AM
Sounds to me like she needs to go to the range...

Any chance of that happening? I think it would really open her eyes.
Sadly, not being 21, I can't shoot in NYC ranges.

lions
July 20, 2009, 01:34 AM
Sadly, not being 21, I can't shoot in NYC ranges.

That stinks... on to plan B.

...and she still believes doggedly in universal registration, waiting periods, etc

Ask her what purpose registration serves aside from a precursor to confiscation. Her answer will inevitably be to solve gun crimes so ask her how many have been solved that way (she can't count any of the CSIs:D). It may be helpful to sit down and do the research with her instead of just throwing uncited facts at her.

And waiting periods? How can she honestly believe those work? Ask her (nicely I might add) what she thinks they accomplish. She will probably tell you it prevents crimes of passion. To which you should ask: Is anyone that is actually mad enough to kill someone on the spot going to drive down to the gun store and come back? NO, they will just grab the kitchen knife/frying pan/baseball bat/flower vase/bare hands. The only things that will prevent crimes of passion are reason on behalf of the aggressor and time, the former being much more important. More gun control laws aren't going to do it. Again, do the research with her and she who can support their argument.

Unless she is emotionally terrified you should be able to reach her with a steady, tedious, and drawn out presentation of facts. It could take years, that is how long it took my best friend who is now a gun owner. It all depends on how much time you want to spend.

ETA: Just saw your sig line, Ex gun control supporter, now a convert. think about what it took to convince you.

HeavenlySword
July 20, 2009, 02:05 AM
That stinks... on to plan B.



Ask her what purpose registration serves aside from a precursor to confiscation. Her answer will inevitably be to solve gun crimes so ask her how many have been solved that way (she can't count any of the CSIs:D). It may be helpful to sit down and do the research with her instead of just throwing uncited facts at her.

And waiting periods? How can she honestly believe those work? Ask her (nicely I might add) what she thinks they accomplish. She will probably tell you it prevents crimes of passion. To which you should ask: Is anyone that is actually mad enough to kill someone on the spot going to drive down to the gun store and come back? NO, they will just grab the kitchen knife/frying pan/baseball bat/flower vase/bare hands. The only things that will prevent crimes of passion are reason on behalf of the aggressor and time, the former being much more important. More gun control laws aren't going to do it. Again, do the research with her and she who can support their argument.

Unless she is emotionally terrified you should be able to reach her with a steady, tedious, and drawn out presentation of facts. It could take years, that is how long it took my best friend who is now a gun owner. It all depends on how much time you want to spend.

ETA: Just saw your sig line, think about what it took to convince you.
PRECISELY

She thinks it stops crimes of passion. I counterclaim that most crimes of passion are done with kitchen knives, crowbars, other objects.
I explain to her Canada's registration system, while costing billions of dollars, has solved like, 1 case.

I was changed by my own addiction of knowledge. I read the articles, and looked at the numbers, and gun control simply didn't add up
after thousands of hours reading, i came to the conclusion i was wrong and switched stances. I doubt most people are objective enough to do it the same way.

I'll try using Joe Huffman's Just One Question and Jews in the Attic arguements next. Along with a history of the Sullivan Law's circumstances.

THE DARK KNIGHT
July 20, 2009, 02:08 AM
Another thing to point out to her. A lot of New Yorkers are under the impression that the gun laws are making the crime rates go down. Bloomberg's radio ad cites that as well. Point out to her that NYC's crime is down not due to the gun laws like the mayor says, but because there are now 25,000 uniformed officers on the street. In comparison LA has 8,000.

Oleg Volk
July 20, 2009, 10:23 AM
Get an airsoft or a toy pistol and a holster and ask her to wear it indoors for an hour. In an hour, ask if she's still aware of having it on her hip and if having a gun available makes her want to use it for something improper.

HeavenlySword
July 21, 2009, 03:36 AM
Get an airsoft or a toy pistol and a holster and ask her to wear it indoors for an hour. In an hour, ask if she's still aware of having it on her hip and if having a gun available makes her want to use it for something improper.
OMG its oleg!

Will try this too. Shes a near-fanatical bloomberg supporter though, doesn't think anyone else has the experience or w/e that 'NYC needs'

thesecond
July 21, 2009, 04:09 AM
www.a-human-right.com

www.corneredcat.com

New Yorker, likely a reader, allow her some time to come to her own conclusions.

refer her to the range in Chelsea, mid-20s, west side, .22lr only.

THE DARK KNIGHT
July 21, 2009, 06:24 AM
I thought the range in Chelsea allows pistols too? Up to .38spl if i remember correctly.

mgkdrgn
July 21, 2009, 11:02 AM
Ask her:

1) What is the purpose of registration?

2) Will registration prevent any crimes?

3) Will criminals register their guns?

If she agrees the answer to #2 or #3is "No", then ask #1 again.

HeavenlySword
July 26, 2009, 05:40 AM
I thought the range in Chelsea allows pistols too? Up to .38spl if i remember correctly.
for the 4th time i think, NYC does not allow <21 to shoot, even at ranges

Snake.Doctor
July 26, 2009, 06:22 AM
You know, I think we all come to the same stories when you own guns. You always meet people who are strongly against them.

I don't know how it works in the US, but here our lefties have a very good agenda to make people think weapons are very bad things... They use all incidents with a weapon to talk about their dangerousness, their uselessness, etc... The biggest problem we have here, is that the media are all on the left-side. On their website you can comment their articles, and every time you give an argument to point the stupidity of their theory, your comment disappear like magic... Long story short, with time going on, more and more people believe what the media says. In the next two years our people will have to vote on a new text, the tittle of the vote is "Against the violence of weapons", and let me tell you something, with their great public disinformation, there are great chances the vote will pass... And they will put little modifications in the law with this text, such as a ban on pump-action shotguns, no longer ownership for full-auto weapons ( damn the people who collect only full-auto ones will be quite disappointed when they will tell them to bring their stuff back to police station with no money in return... ). It's the same thing that happened in France, when "specialists" were telling on the TV that the pump-action shotgun makes a 12 gauge cartridge 10x more powerful than when used in a dual-barrel shotgun for hunting... Guess what happened...

One of our main problem in this country, is that there is no solidarity between the hunters, the sport shooters and collectors. They all think that the others are wrong with what they're doing with their guns, and they don't feel concerned when some weapons will become illegal. They don't realize that's just the first steps before THEIR weapon will become illegal too. That's exactly what will happen if they introduce a "necessary clause" in the law : You're a hunter, fine you need a weapon. But only one, why would you need more than one ? Hell yeah, when you go hunting you just can carry only one, so the others are useless. You're a sport shooter ? Ok great, an air-pistol will just work fine on the target, why would you need a firearm ? Ok Ok it's different... a .22 cal will work just fine on the target as well, but the ones you have only one cartridge at a time, you know, you don't need to make follow-up shots... it's sporting ! And the collectors ? Are you out of your mind ? Why would you collect weapons ? Damn you have a serious problem, you should go to see a psychiatrist...

You know what I mean ?

So for myself, I have to admit I'm a great warrior in the war against the lefties. Every time I meet someone who has a bad opinion about weapons, I do the same thing : "You're doing something on Saturday ? Nope ? Ok, rendez-vous at 9AM, I'll show you something." I bring them to the range, explain them the rules about safety, and after that they start with .22, then 9mm, and after that depends on the person, .45, .223, 12 gauge, etc... And when they see someone with a different gun, they always ask "what is this ? and the guy come and says "you wanna try ?" ... I'm doing this for years, and guess what ? So far, I have absolutely NO ONE who ever kept his mind about weapons after I brought him to the range with me. Actually, I have several friends who came into the gun-thing after that, buying their own guns. My fiancée was the same, quite afraid of weapons at the beginning. Now she owns 5 weapons, and a new one is coming next month...

But still I'm afraid of our future...

Vibe
July 26, 2009, 07:19 AM
The absolute fastest way to convert someone is to shoot a perp that is trying to kill her. Thank God that that particular situation is still rare...but it is the fastest.

Tommygunn
July 26, 2009, 12:41 PM
I don't know how it works in the US, but here our lefties have a very good agenda to make people think weapons are very bad things... They use all incidents with a weapon to talk about their dangerousness, their uselessness, etc... The biggest problem we have here, is that the media are all on the left-side.

Geeesh. Sounds just like America!!!!!:p:uhoh:

22-rimfire
July 26, 2009, 12:58 PM
It takes time to change. Unlike the change that is trying to be inflicted on our nation by BHO, most change occurs slowly. Depending on your relationship with her, I would spend time with her and maybe take advantage of a road trip to perhaps PA and do some shooting at a PA Game Land property (woods). Follow the rules about transporing firearms.

It actually is more fun to shoot in the woods or a rural setting rather than the formality of a range. She might think she likes the formality because of her present attitudes. Shoot some 22's and punch some holes in cans and so forth. Have fun and clean up the mess afterwards.

I think watching the movie Definace is good advice. I have had the video since it was released, but only watched it the other evening. Great movie and quite moving. Yes it was war time, but most intellegent people can make the transition to peacetime and the what if's.

cityslicker
July 26, 2009, 01:01 PM
The registration of firearms is for one thing only! When the government bans guns, they know who to come after for confiscation. The thugs won't register, so they'll keep their guns.

SouthernBoy
July 26, 2009, 10:34 PM
It has always amazed me that Jews as a group have a very high percentage of anti-gun beliefs. I find this incredible in light of what they experienced in Europe in just the 20th century. Truly amazing. As an American, and in particular a Southerner, I would rather see our streets running red with the blood of tyrants than to give up this most important and fundamental right.

Get her a copy of "Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. Let her see how the loss of American rights and freedoms has taken place in the past 50 years. Then tell her this.

The spark that ignited the American Revolution was gun control - specifically containment and confiscation. Human nature hasn't changed in 234 years.

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