Range restrictions


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Niel4
July 19, 2009, 04:57 PM
I go to 3 different ranges and all 3 prohibit drawing a pistol from a holster.

Is this common?

Such a bummer.....How does one ever get to practice this with live ammo...

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ScareyH22A
July 19, 2009, 05:06 PM
They just don't want their customers to shoot their hands off.

THE DARK KNIGHT
July 19, 2009, 05:08 PM
It's for the best, honestly. When I go to my local range and see the bullet holes in the dividers or like in the ceiling at a 90 degree angle I get a little shaken LOL

oneounceload
July 19, 2009, 05:56 PM
too many folks being way too unsafe - practice at home with snap caps and a laser

jnyork
July 19, 2009, 05:58 PM
I have seen this done at ranges with no restrictions and I can assure you it is just terrifying to watch, guys will definitely shoot themselves or others, I left both time as fast as I could get stuff loaded.

AK103K
July 19, 2009, 06:18 PM
You dont suppose its a catch 22 thing that they shoot themselves because they cant practice do you? ;)

I agree with the practice with snap caps at home, but there is no substitute for practice with live ammo.

Most ranges I've belonged to would not allow rapid fire, drawing from a holster, or anything other than basically bulls eye type shooting. I finally got sick of living someplace I couldnt do a lot of the things I like to do, so I moved where I can (and its still in the US believe it or dont). Best thing I ever did, and I should have done it a long time ago.

xsquidgator
July 19, 2009, 06:59 PM
Such a bummer.....How does one ever get to practice this with live ammo...

I sympathize, as I used to have the same complaint. The first answer to your question I found was going to a almost unsupervised indoor range in a not-so-good part of town. "Unsupervised" to the point of being unsafe, so even though one could draw from a holster there, it wasn't safe because of all the unsupervised yahoos doing their thing in there and I quit going.

The better answer would be to find a local club that has IDPA matches. Find out where the IDPA or IPSC enthusiasts practice and join there. Since I found a local club that has matches and (once you get qualified to use them) action ranges where you can draw from concealment, practice, etc, things are much better and happier.

Deanimator
July 19, 2009, 07:02 PM
Yes, it's common. It's only allowed on our [private] range during supervised IDPA activities.

The next closest [commercial] range to me is so dangerously unsupervised, you could probably draw and fire a Glock 18 on full-auto, regardless of whatever "rules" they have but don't enforce.

Flash!
July 19, 2009, 07:18 PM
I use a private range..... our rules are simple..... no alcohol and no full auto..... fast draw all you want....

AK103K
July 19, 2009, 07:27 PM
and no full auto.....
And why (one of my pet peeves :) ) pray tell is that?

eJack
July 19, 2009, 08:27 PM
I go to 3 different ranges and all 3 prohibit drawing a pistol from a holster.

Is this common?

Such a bummer.....How does one ever get to practice this with live ammo...


Most ranges have a no holster policy. Go during off hours and you might find the policy is flexible when the lanes aren't packed. It's worked for me. Second option is find a training school that teaches from the holster. Some ranges will bend the policy if you have a training cert and again the range isn't packed. Third option is find somewhere out in the middle of nowhere where it's legal to shoot.

AK kind of guy
July 19, 2009, 08:31 PM
Its the same at the range by me also, you can do it only if you pay to have an instructor give you lessons.

Lawnman380
July 19, 2009, 08:35 PM
Gun's point down range.........

tju1973
July 19, 2009, 08:59 PM
It the same at the range I frequent-- sucks, but that is life--- I do practice with Snap Caps i nthe garage and bedroom closet-- sort of wierd, but it works. It at least gets muscle memory and natural point of aim---

I get out "to the country" a few times a year though and get live fire draw and shoot practice...

Liabilites of somebody dropping a gun and having it shoot someone I am sure is the reasoning..

And to tell you the truth, I agree...

Frank Ettin
July 19, 2009, 09:48 PM
Most people have never been trained to draw from a holster, and they can therefore make a pretty good hash of it when they try. There's a way to do it, and it's not hard. But it's also not intuitive and takes some practice.

Take up IDPA and/or IPSC and you'll get plenty of chance to draw from a holster. Most IDPA and IPSC clubs have arrangement with the ranges they shoot at to allow for "run and gun" practice, including drawing from a holster.

One range I frequent permits people who have successfully completed certain classes there, and been qualified by the instructor, to draw from the holster and shoot rapid fire.

Mags
July 19, 2009, 09:52 PM
All but the private clubs in my area ban drawing from a holster even if you are Military or LEO

TexasRifleman
July 19, 2009, 09:56 PM
Private range here too, draw allowed if you do a short demonstration to a club officer that you are not clueless.

Full auto allowed with the same safety demonstration.

Have to actually have your membership card signed off to do these things.

It's mostly about keeping the insurance affordable. Our range's policy says that we're not covered if there is an incident and the membership card isn't signed for either drawing or full auto.

It's also an immediate membership revocation if caught doing these things without a signed card.

spartywrx
July 20, 2009, 12:42 AM
I found some guy who uses primers and rice to practice cowboy quick draw in his garage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYZXKRHg2Tc

Not quite the real deal, but interesting enough.

flipajig
July 20, 2009, 01:18 AM
+1 on joining IDPA lots of pratice..

Jed Carter
July 20, 2009, 05:45 AM
Absolutely +1 to IDPA and USPSA for LOTS of practice drawing from holster, moving safely with loaded firearm, and tactical reloads. Danger: HABIT FORMING.

peyton
July 20, 2009, 08:21 AM
I think it is because of the chance of shooting someone else while drawing the firearm from the holster. I think joining local club that has IDPA matches would be best. You get good training and have fun in a safe environment while doing it.

Sam1911
July 20, 2009, 08:26 AM
Hey, now! IDPA is NOT TACTICAL TRAINING! Right?

I think sometimes folks with a lot of training/experience/(opinions) forget just how much of a learning curve there is between someone's first visit to a gun store and them actually being safe and proficient (not even to say "effective") with a defensive sidearm.

IDPA, and certainly IPSC/USPSA, are not tactical training, and some of the concessions to the game and range safety are impractical in real-world violent encounters. BUT, these types of "practical" or "action" matches do hammer safe and smooth gun-handling very well. And, considering how many thousands of days a defensive gun is merely carried about in public for every one time it may be needed defensively, in my opinion that SAFETY practice is MORE important!

When folks denigrate IDPA as useless from a training perspective, remember all the thousands of gun guys/gals who "can't be trusted" to even safely draw from a holster. These are the folks we're reading about who are lining up around the block to get their CCW permits and go strap on their brand new gun. We see new shooters -- and a lot of OLD shooters who've never developed "active range" skills at all -- every month. If we can teach them to draw, holster, reload, move, be aware of their muzzle, keep their finger off the trigger, and not sweep themselves or others, that's a BIG win!

The more time I spend doing that, the more nervous I get about the 100s of 1000s of other folks who haven't availed themselves of such "worthless tactical training" and rely on whatever common sense and sheer dumb luck they posess to keep them safe with their guns in public.

-Sam

Mr_Rogers
July 20, 2009, 10:58 AM
The ability to draw a gun quickly and safely is a vital SD skill. Quite possibly THE most vital SD skill. It is better if the shooter is not self-taught and an unskilled shooter, practicing with no supervision and live ammunition, is an accident waiting to happen and is probably learning very little. I can see why public ranges restrict drawing from the holster because they do not know the ability of any individual shooter.

Drawing from the holster is best taught to an unskilled shooter on a one-on-one basis by an experienced instructor. Progress through the training should be slow and thorough since the skill needs, for reasons of both effectiveness and safety, to be deeply ingrained in the student's memory. This is likely to make the training difficult to arrange and somewhat expensive.

Training for competition is of very little relevance. Ultimately, a fully trained SD student needs to have the ability to draw from various body positions, while moving, and under various realistic scenarios.

Sam1911
July 20, 2009, 12:21 PM
Drawing from the holster is best taught to an unskilled shooter on a one-on-one basis by an experienced instructor. Progress through the training should be slow and thorough since the skill needs, for reasons of both effectiveness and safety, to be deeply ingrained in the student's memory. This is likely to make the training difficult to arrange and somewhat expensive.
Sure, in a perfect world, but this is kind of self-defeating, then, eh? If the problem is that most folks carrying guns are grossly unskilled in safe firearms handling, adhering to a standard of training that is "difficult to arrange and somewhat expensive," seems like another way of saying that exceedingly few folks will develop any competence at all.

Ultimately, a fully trained SD student needs to have the ability to draw from various body positions, while moving, and under various realistic scenarios.Oh, there is no question. However, how many "fully trained SD students" are there? How many of the gun carrying population would you expect would reach "fully trained" status? How many of them need something beyond what they got over the counter at the gun store? (i.e.: NONE.)

Training for competition is of very little relevance.Thank you for being such a good example of my initial point! :) A great many tactical-whactical folks like to say that "IDPA/IPSC practice will get you KILLED," and that it is "of very little relevance." As though most Joe Average gun-toting folks were really struggling over whether to practice speed reloads, or reloads-with-retention, or tactical-reloads, and other competition mumbo-jumbo. Or that a lot of "Operators" have been sent to Valhalla because they tried to "Run-&-Gun" through an armed standoff using techniques they picked up in an IPSC match and got shot while reloading in the open. :rolleyes:

When we all share so many stories of the general public endangering themselves and others every time they touch a gun, and when I see folks who actually ARE interested in developing some skills show up at IDPA practice who've never drawn from a holster, can't find their safety, can't shoot on the move, can't reload in a day and a half, and when they're done, can't find their holster with both hands, a map, and a native guide -- well, I get the notion that maybe an accessible, engaging, and heck, even FUN, opportunity to develop some gun-handling skills might be of benefit to John and Jane Q. Public.

Will they be ready to teach the FBI's HRT a thing or two about tactical shooting when they've gotten their Marksman classification? I guess not. But maybe they won't sweep me at the range or AD the toilet at the Ponderosa.

-Sam

Frank Ettin
July 20, 2009, 01:03 PM
Sure, in a perfect world, but this is kind of self-defeating, then, eh? If the problem is that most folks carrying guns are grossly unskilled in safe firearms handling, adhering to a standard of training that is "difficult to arrange and somewhat expensive," seems like another way of saying that exceedingly few folks will develop any competence at all.There is the core of the problem.

First, let me be clear that I absolutely think people who are going to be going around with loaded guns in public need to be better trained and be reasonably competent. Every time I go to the range I see example after example of atrocious gun handling and abysmal marksmanship -- folks poking holes all over a huge B-27 silhouette, at seven yards, slow fire.

But while I've been to Gunsite and have taken other classes, everyone can't swing that sort of thing. But people still need to get some decent training beyond that minimal level provided by the usual state CCW class (in those states that even require such things). But I'm not sure that there's an easy answer.

The NRA classes, Basic Handgun, Personal Protection Inside the Home and Personal Protection Outside the Home, together could provide a decent foundation. If someone is near a good NRA certified instructor offering those classes, they would be a fair option. They might still be a financial stretch for some, but they'd be less expensive than a week at Gunsite (although they also wouldn't be the equivalent).

...I get the notion that maybe an accessible, engaging, and heck, even FUN, opportunity to develop some gun-handling skills might be of benefit to John and Jane Q. Public....I agree. Competition (IPSC and IDPA) is an extension of training and practice. It's not a place to learn self defense and tactics. It is an excellent way to learn and practice skills like safe gun handling, presenting the gun from the holster, moving safely with a loaded weapon, shooting from unconventional postures, target acquisition, engaging multiple targets, shooting on the move, shooting fast and accurately, reloading, etc., all under the stress of competition.

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