124 gr. rainier fp problem in G17


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DesmoDucRob
July 20, 2009, 12:59 PM
I just loaded a small batch of 124 gr. rainier plated fpís for my Glock 17 and came across chambering issues. Some, but not all (about 5 in 50) failed to fully chamber in my pistol. In two of the 5 that didnít chamber it took some serious effort to work the slide and I ended up separating the bullet from the case, which left a nice mess of Winchester 231 on my bench. Iím certain that the bullet is engaging the rifling prematurely, but am hesitant to seat the bullet deeper due to potential (read guaranteed) pressure increase. Iím using factory WWB 9mm cartridge (1.16 OAL) to set my OAL, but am second-guessing this practice due to differences in bullet shape. Has anyone had luck using 124 gr. Rainier fpís in a glock 17, or is there a published source someone can refer me to?

My complete load is as follows:
124 gr. Rainier fp
4.5 gr. W231
CCI 500 Primer

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watchman101
July 20, 2009, 01:09 PM
Sizing/deprime die needs to be seated deeper. Make sure your finish product can fit in a case gage before you put it in your magazine.

rcmodel
July 20, 2009, 01:28 PM
The sizing/deprime die has absolutely nothing to do with this problem.

You have to seat the bullet deeper to prevent it engraving the rifling leade before it can chamber. The bullet you have is a truncated cone with a full diameter shank clear to the ogive break-over angle.

It will need to be seated deeper until the full diameter shank no longer hits the leade.

Take the barrel out of your gun to use as a guage at the reloading press.
Color one rounds bullet with a black magic-marker and keep dropping it in the chamber & seating deeper until the marker no longer is getting rubbed off by contact with the rifling.

Don't worry about pressure.
Your 4.5 grain charge of WW231 is barely a starting load and whatever seating depth you need to use will not raise pressure enough to matter.

BTW: In this data sheet, Rainer says to seat to an OAL of 1.090".
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=80716&d=1214861144

rc

DesmoDucRob
July 20, 2009, 01:57 PM
Thanks, rcmodel (this time and others). I've removed the barrel, but have not considered the magic marker technique. I'll give an update once I have more info. Is this a common problem with this bullet shape? Hopefully this will end as happily as the lost decapping pin saga.

rcmodel
July 20, 2009, 02:02 PM
Yes, it is common with TC, SWC, and many JHP designs today.

Many guns are designed & chambered with FMJ-RN military style bullets in mind.

With that bullet shape, the ogive curve runs right into the case mouth.
Anything sticking out of the case is smaller then the leade / rifling.

rc

rfwobbly
July 20, 2009, 11:25 PM
RC is right on the money with this one.

The leade is so short on my CZ that I have to go through this with every new bullet. The point is, you absolutely DO NOT want the bullet to touch the rifling before the round is fired. So once you find the dimension that clears the rifling, you need to back off an additional .010" (min). This extra safety margin due to slight variations in your OALs caused by your loading press.

As an example, my Berry plated 124gr FP are loaded at 1.040" for my CZ. I once bought some Zero 124gr that had to go less than 1.000" to even chamber !!

DesmoDucRob
July 22, 2009, 02:52 PM
I've reduced my OAL to about 1.09, but the rounds don't drop in nearly as easily as any factory stuff. I'm hesitant to reduce the OAL any more. I'm assuming that engaging the lands prior to being fired will cause pressures to escalate? If this is the case; at 1.09 is it worse to shorten OAL, or risk bullet-land contact?

Perhaps in this instance, I should be concerned with case volume beneath the bullet rather than OAL.

rcmodel
July 22, 2009, 03:18 PM
Do what you gotta do to keep the bullet out of the rifling.

Hornady lists thier 124 grain TC bullet seated to 1.050"

Hodgdon lists a MAX load of 231 at 4.8 grains, with a 125 Sierra FMJ seated to 1.090".
Your TC is longer then the Sierra FMJ.

rc

D. Manley
July 22, 2009, 03:55 PM
124 gr. rainier fp problem in G17
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I just loaded a small batch of 124 gr. rainier plated fp’s for my Glock 17 and came across chambering issues. Some, but not all (about 5 in 50) failed to fully chamber in my pistol. In two of the 5 that didn’t chamber it took some serious effort to work the slide and I ended up separating the bullet from the case, which left a nice mess of Winchester 231 on my bench. I’m certain that the bullet is engaging the rifling prematurely, but am hesitant to seat the bullet deeper due to potential (read guaranteed) pressure increase. I’m using factory WWB 9mm cartridge (1.16 OAL) to set my OAL, but am second-guessing this practice due to differences in bullet shape. Has anyone had luck using 124 gr. Rainier fp’s in a glock 17, or is there a published source someone can refer me to?

My complete load is as follows:
124 gr. Rainier fp
4.5 gr. W231
CCI 500 Primer

Are you using the OEM barrel? If so, I'm a little surprised, Glock barrels tend to have pretty deep throats and OAL is more often than not limited by the magazines. FWIW, I shoot a lot of 147 Remington FP-FMC "Match" bullets and run them at 1.130 with no issues whatsoever in any of my 9MM Glocks. I've actually ran them longer but since I settled on 1.130, I didn't keep the other notes.

I see below you've reduced the OAL to below 1.10 and are still having problems which tends to point to something else amiss other than, OAL. I don't think there's any way your bullet could be contacting the rifling at less than 1.10...check and make sure your cases are sized correctly (for good tension on the bullets) and your bullets have'nt been "slipping out" when you chamber them. Either use a good case gauge or use your barrel as a gauge before actually running them through the gun.

JCisHe
July 22, 2009, 04:55 PM
This doesn't seem right... something is amiss. Why don't you tell us exactly what you did the get these rounds?

DesmoDucRob
July 22, 2009, 06:08 PM
This doesn't seem right... something is amiss. Why don't you tell us exactly what you did the get these rounds?

No shortcuts or lazy techniques if that's what you're implying. It is a factory glock barrel, which otherwise seems to eat whatever I feed it. I'll keep you posted.

RustyFN
July 22, 2009, 07:44 PM
I seat FP and HP bullets at 1.12 for my G17. I use a medium charge of Titegroup.

rfwobbly
July 22, 2009, 08:43 PM
I've reduced my OAL to about 1.09, but the rounds don't drop in nearly as easily as any factory stuff.

Desmo Ducati Dude -

That result could simply be a matter of poor or missing "taper crimp". The diameter at the tip of the case mouth on the reloaded 9mm round should be very, very close to .378" or .377". Measure the case mouth at the last 1/32" of the case and tell us that diameter.

When the belling flares the case mouth out so that the bullet can be seated, the next step is to apply a taper crimp (either as a part of the 3rd seating die, or using a separate 4th "taper crimp" die) to completely remove the flare.

Since the 9x19 locates ("head spaces") on the case mouth, it's very important that the case mouth is perfectly formed in the final step. If any of the flare remains, that is... the mouth diameter exceeds .380", then "drop in" loading will be problematic.


Hope this helps!

DesmoDucRob
July 24, 2009, 10:24 AM
Ok, folks, here's the virdict.

I was certain that my crimp was not the problem, so I verified this by measuring thecase mouth after crimping on several cartridges, and they all measured .376 with boring consistancy. I then measured a few bullets and they were a perfect .356. I re-checked the 1.09 OAL cartridges again, using my barrel as a gauge (on a full night's sleep and less frustrated) and they were an obvious improvement on the ones loaded to 1.16. In fact, some of them actually chambered fully under their own weight and gave that satisfying "tink" sound when they headspaced on the case mouth. I turned my bullet seater plug about 1/8 turn deeper to give me a little margin of error and fully seated each loaded round at that setting. The result: they drop in as cleanly as the factory stuff when I use the barrel as a case gauge.

The point is, you absolutely DO NOT want the bullet to touch the rifling before the round is fired. So once you find the dimension that clears the rifling, you need to back off an additional .010" (min). This extra safety margin due to slight variations in your OALs caused by your loading press.
^this is what works
Do what you gotta do to keep the bullet out of the rifling.
^after studying up a bit on the subject I now realize that even though I have a shorter OAL, I'm operating at safer pressures, since chambered rounds are not engaging the rifling.

Thanks again, Guys;)

rcmodel
July 24, 2009, 01:12 PM
and gave that satisfying "tink" soundAlls well that ends well!

Actually though, that "Tink" sound bothers me.
Mine make more of a "Kachunk" sound.

Oh wait!

9mm's "Tink".
.45 ACP's "Kachunk".

Never mind! Carry on! :D

rc

The Bushmaster
July 24, 2009, 02:05 PM
:D l m a o :D

That's...

Tink for 9mmX19

And

Thunk for .45 ACP

DesmoDucRob
July 26, 2009, 09:53 PM
...Just wanted to let the guys who helped out here know that I competed (USPSA) with these rounds today and did not have one hitch. The match ended great, and it looks like I can log one more recipe in the reloading cook book;)

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