CCW means Concealed.


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offroaddiver
July 20, 2009, 10:43 PM
I am a mgr at a retail location and personally I've noticed more people concealed carrying. Now I know that "concealment" means that no part of the gun is visible, but there are some people that should use a bit more stealth.

I guess I am more situationally aware, but there are 3 people that have concealed carry in my store that were so obvious to me that it almost made me laugh.

First guy was a mid 20s wearing kahki pants, and a Under Armor shirt on.. The spandex type. Of course he had a full sized handgun wearing it in a OWB in 3 oclock and 2 magazine holders at 9 and 8. The entire time he kept pulling his pants up and stretching the shirt over the gun. Kinda felt sorry for him.

Next guy was wearing... a t-shirt that had the blackwater insignia on it, mesh vest and sweatpants. I almost cried with this guy... he kept having to pull his pants up and spread his legs apart a bit while standing... the mesh vest when he walked opened enough to see the stainles mag on the outside of the holster that had a black polymer handgun in it.

Today took the cake. older gentleman, wearing the older metal framed range glasses (where the tint is on the upper but lighter on bottom) Grandpa had a pair, A bronze belt buckle that was the ruger insignia. Was wearing one of the "concealment" organizer style holsters that was too small for his because the velcro was loose enough to see the ear when he was facing me and the entire webbing/material gaze the print of a full sized firearm.

Now for the Q & A? Anyone else see this as often? This was just today, most of the time I just ignore it. Does anyone else check themselves in a full size mirror? All These people were wearing what I would consider OWB holsters... what happened to IWB?

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larry_minn
July 20, 2009, 10:50 PM
It could be a business oppertunity. (if your current job will allow it) Make up some "business cards" "Sir or madam, you are not concealing your firearm properly, Call this number to find out about training that will allow you to carry (If you have a permit) a firearm without everyone noticing who looks at you" :) :)

denfoote
July 20, 2009, 11:20 PM
Here in Arizona, it does not matter because we are an open carry state. I work at a court house and we give people an option: either put the gun in a provided weapons locker or take the gun back to their car. So far, I've personally detected somebodies XD9 that he neglected to take out of his back pack.

SHusky57
July 20, 2009, 11:31 PM
I feel you.

The guy's that wear those "concealment" vests that look like a combination of Blackwater gear/fishing vest in Wal-mart.... I mean really, I know it's convenient, and maybe no one can even see that you are carrying but you loook ridiculous and it's kind of obvious to anyone who has ever seen those things in a catalog.

Sam1911
July 20, 2009, 11:33 PM
personally I've noticed more people concealed carrying. Now I know that "concealment" means that no part of the gun is visible, but there are some people that should use a bit more stealth.
Sure, they could. But maybe they conceal enough to not get hassled 99% of the time and that's good enough for them. If it isn't illegal, and they don't personally care about ruffling the feathers of a soccer mom or two, maybe deeper concealment really isn't a priority for them. I've certainly met quite a few old fellows like that third gentleman you described who really couldn't give a dead rat's behind what anyone else thought about anything -- and could say so with a chuckle and a grizzled smile -- and would be perfectly happy to stand around for a 1/2 hour chatting with the local police (probably shooting buddies of theirs anyway) who responded to that MWAG call. Probably the highlight of their day! :-)

Now for the Q & A? Anyone else see this as often?
Nope. I'm watchful, and I live in a state with 650,000 LCTF holders, and nope, I don't see this much -- outside of range time, of course.

This was just today, most of the time i just ignore it. Probably a good plan. They're out exercising their rights and certainly aren't harming anyone. If they seem approachable, you might give them a friendly "head's-up" that their butt is out, but otherwise chances are they'll have to talk to enough folks about it from time to time that maybe your input doesn't contribute to their well-being. That's a personal call you'll have to make on a case-by-case.

Does anyone else check themselves in a full size mirror?
Yup. I do. I don't have a desire to intentionally show my sidearm. And there are times when it would be very inconvenient to do so and then I'll be very vigilant. Other days, if I'm just running to the hardware store or out for a bite to eat or whatever, I really don't get too worked up over it.

All These people were wearing what i would consider OWB holsters... what happened to IWB?I used to carry IWB a lot myself. Even my 629! But it just isn't as comfortable as an OWB holster. I can cover my guns in OWB holsters to my satisfaction and so a lot of the time that's what they ride in. I like having the flexibility of both methods, though. Sometimes you may be concerned with not printing at all and the IWB is worth the trade-offs. There are a lot of folks, though, who have never found a combination of gun and IWB holster that fits them. Whatever works...the first rule is to have the gun with you. The "no printing" rule -- usually -- comes farther down the list.

I'm pretty careful and probably wouldn't have flagged your heightened level of "gun-radar" -- but the fact those three guys (presumably) go about their daily business concealed as they do means that they don't alarm the vast majority of the folks around them.

Go ahead and pat yourself on the back: you're at least moderately situationally aware. The vast majority of the public isn't, and these guys are able to choose a more comfortable and relaxed carry method because of that.

-Sam

John Wayne
July 21, 2009, 12:02 AM
I saw a gentleman, who buy my guess should be wearing an XL or larger size t-shirt. This aforementioned shirt size would not have been baggy at all; in fact it's probably a conservative estimate. He was wearing instead, however, what I'd assume was a size M t-shirt, which due to his large stomach size, fell somewhere around his belly button. The 1911 he was carrying OWB on his belt was covered to about the ejection port. BTW, open carry is not legal here.

The only other guy I've noticed carrying was a maintenance guy who carried a Taurus PT-111 Mil Pro OWB when his shirt got caught on it and he didn't notice.

Kind of Blued
July 21, 2009, 02:22 AM
Have you ever thought that maybe they don't care if you know they're carrying a gun?

Sometimes I'll carry a 1911 OWB with a T-shirt over the top half of it. Sometimes the shirt does cover the gun completely, or not at all. Either way, I don't mind.

kyo
July 21, 2009, 02:33 AM
dude i got told by a cop to put mine away and i live in GA. an OPEN carry state. Yea, I check but i wear tanktops and sometimes it prints but no one even notices cause I wear it IWB

LRaccuracy
July 21, 2009, 08:26 AM
Ohio is an open carry and CCW State. You don't want to be caught carryng openly in most towns in Ohio... Try carrying openly in Oregon, Ohio, or even in Northwood. GL

rbernie
July 21, 2009, 10:05 AM
So long as the CHL holder is conducting themselves in a lawful manner, concerns over 'how concealed is concealed' seems like much to-do about little of substance....

hso
July 21, 2009, 10:15 AM
I'm glad TN did away with the "concealed" part of the carry requirement on the permit just for these reasons. We argued that just having the wind blow your jacket/shirt enough to momentarily expose your weapon would put you in conflict with the law the way it used to be written.

Usually, the only one that notices that someone might be carrying is another gunny. Most folks never notice one way or the other what anyone is doing/wearing unless it is something remarkably odd/obnoxious. Thank heavens for "condition white".

bnkrazy
July 21, 2009, 10:15 AM
In TN, OC is allowed with a license. Presumably if they are attempting to conceal, they are licensed. If they are printing or even OCing, it's within the law. They will figure it out soon enough. You could help them out and offer a better solution for carrying, or just sit back and chuckle.

Norinco982lover
July 21, 2009, 10:18 AM
I conceal my XD45 in my crossbreed supertuck with only a T-shirt over it. I print a very small amount but carrying IWB at 3:45 I really don't think anyone notices.

As rbernie said, if you aren't doing anything wrong and are acting perfectly normal than nobody will probably notice.

It is when you go out of your way to try and conceal that you get caught. I usually just find myself with my right hand in my pocket holding my shirt down. I make myself stop doing that... because it actually draws more attention to me than if I WAS exposing my gun.

~Norinco

dirt_j00
July 21, 2009, 10:49 AM
Further reading: http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=462865

smith52
July 21, 2009, 10:57 AM
I think those of us that carry are quicker to notice someone else carrying than those who do not carry. I myself preferr concealed carry, but have no issue with other carrying openly, as long as they are carrying safely.

Mr_Rogers
July 21, 2009, 11:25 AM
This comes back to the "hot weather" problem that has been discussed before. You either carry a more concealable firearm or look over-dressed.

I wear one of the photo jackets and dislike doing it but it is the most convenient way to carry my wallet, cell-phone, pens, papers - and hide a pistol. It is a shame this useful piece of clothing is now associated with wannabees. I concealed carry in two states. The regulations for one say the firearm must be "under your control" (which I take to mean that in a light cordura briefcase is OK), the other says the firearm must be "on your person" which I take to mean in a holster. In both states concealed means concealed.

John Wayne
July 21, 2009, 11:25 AM
While I don't think there is any harm in "printing," since 99% of people don't notice or care, I don't think partial concealment is beneficial to public opinion of gun owners.

A concealed weapon does not alert people because it's concealed. An openly-carried weapon in a state that allows it (several do not) may alert some but it at least says you've got nothing to hide and that there is nothing inherently wrong with carrying a gun.

A half-concealed gun on the other hand, gives the impression that the gun needs to be concealed for whatever reason, but that you're lazy or incompetent, or you're not legally supposed to have it.

NavyLCDR
July 21, 2009, 12:30 PM
Or maybe a person with a CPL in a state such as Washington normally open carries, but, say, they get a chill upon exiting a vehicle and just toss on a light jacket and don't particularly care about the visibility or concealment of their gun because they are legal either way or any way in between.

Sam1911
July 21, 2009, 01:30 PM
A half-concealed gun on the other hand, gives the impression that the gun needs to be concealed for whatever reason, but that you're lazy or incompetent, or you're not legally supposed to have it.

But what if it's 1/4 concealed? Or 7/8ths concealed? Or 7/64ths? :rolleyes:

Really, this is starting to seem like a lot of silly over-thinking of a non-problem and projection of insecurities onto others.

There's one instance where you may have some need to react: If you're in a location with draconian anti-gun laws (like TX or FL mentioned in this thread) ( ;) ) where you must remain concealed -- it would be more than polite to mention to the fellow that he's at grave risk because he's violating the regulations.

Otherwise, M.Y.O.B. Who died and made you his Momma?

If it's legal, it's legal. Denigrating folks' choice of cover garment, or lack thereof, or analyzing the totality of their coverage is just playing fashion critic. Let it go.

IMHO...

-Sam

jojo200517
July 21, 2009, 01:48 PM
Yeah concealed means concealed in SC. It's not that dang hard to hide it where it doesn't show, but it is harder to hide it where it doesn't show AND is comfortable. Inside by waist band the holster just makes the already thick weapon thicker and seems to show more. Luckily cargo shorts with large pockets and a long t-shirt to cover pocket opening seems to work well for me. Just have ya belt pulled up tight so ya weapon doesn't pull ya pants down. :)

Sam1911
July 21, 2009, 01:50 PM
I wear one of the photo jackets ... It is a shame this useful piece of clothing is now associated with wannabees.

I don't think the problem is being associated with "wannabees," so much as simply being associated with concealing a firearm. I happened past a fuctioning TV (rare ocurrance for me) at a friend's house the other day and there was a news report about the Pope. The video showed him walking out of a building being followed by a 1/2 dozen athletic, clean-cut young men in blue jeans, polo shirts, Ray-Bans, and photog vests. I wasn't thinking they looked like "wannabees." But I'm pretty certain they weren't carrying film, either.

Same basic argument with fanny packs. Gunnie folks know what that vest and/or pack mean -- 99% of the time. The rest of society doesn't. If it works for you and meets your own, personal, fashion criteria, go for it. I personally feel silly wearing any of mine off the range because they're covered with competition pins and patches and are only used as IDPA cover garments. But if they weren't, I wouldn't sweat it.

-Sam

Kwanger
July 21, 2009, 01:59 PM
I agree - CCW should mean concealed.

I think if everyone had to work for a bit in an environment where if, it was noticed you were carrying, it could put your security/life in danger, there would be a huge change in CCW carry 'styles' and attitudes. I find it amusing how some people carry their weapons and think they are concealed....actually, IMO, it seems that some people actually want to be found out....

Personally, my carry of choice would be IWB at one o'clock with hang out type shirt. While it ain't the most comfortable method, the reason is you have a lot more control of what's going on with that weapon at all times, so your ability to maintain full concealment and confidence in that concealment is increased. IMO anything past 3 O'Clock represent a potential compromise which may even leave you unawares that your piece is no longer hidden.....it can also lead to a subconcious series of checks to make sure its still hidden, which can also give the game away.

ArmedBear
July 21, 2009, 02:01 PM
OC is legal here.

If I conceal, it's because I want to and because it makes things easier sometimes. If the gun is not perfectly concealed under and all possible circumstances, it's because I don't care THAT much in those circumstances.

That said, I thought that Under Armor stretch shirts are underwear. That's all I use them for. They make IWB carry more comfortable, and prevent abrasions when spending a long time outdoors hiking around, etc.

Sam1911
July 21, 2009, 03:06 PM
I think if everyone had to work for a bit in an environment where if, it was noticed you were carrying, it could put your security/life in danger, there would be a huge change in CCW carry 'styles' and attitudes.
Um, yes, there would. If that were the case. But it isn't and it really isn't an ideal I'm interested in working towards!

Heck, I think that if everyone had to work for a bit in an environment where insurgents were trying to shoot you or set off car bombs when you walk by, there would be a huge change in the attitudes about folks wearing Level IV armor and trauma plates. But we DON'T...and that's a GOOD thing.

Personally, my carry of choice would be IWB at one o'clock with hang out type shirt. While it ain't the most comfortable method, the reason is you have a lot more control of what's going on with that weapon at all times, so your ability to maintain full concealment and confidence in that concealment is increased. Are you KIDDING? With your gun poking out from your belly all the time? Right up in front where anyone facing you will notice it? Where your arms don't offer any visual and physical shield to guard its location? Whaddaya, NUTS?

;)

See? Everyone's choices have benefits and detrements. Just because something works for you, makes sense for you, and makes you comfortable, doesn't mean other folks will agree or even (gasp) approve of your choice.

Again, unless we're all going to go on "Soccer-Mom's Eye for the Gun Guy" and get our wardrobes critiqued, what do you care?

-Sam

DHJenkins
July 21, 2009, 03:16 PM
Why don't you just yell out "Hey! Nice gun!"? That would get the point across fairly quickly.

maskedman504
July 21, 2009, 03:26 PM
Sure, they could. But maybe they conceal enough to not get hassled 99% of the time and that's good enough for them. If it isn't illegal, and they don't personally care about ruffling the feathers of a soccer mom or two, maybe deeper concealment really isn't a priority for them.

Most likely someone noticing is going to be 'in the know' rather than a soccer mom, I would think.

KBT1911
July 21, 2009, 03:48 PM
Right after my wife says "Do these pant's make my butt look big?" I turn and ask, "Is my weapon printing?" One of us always gives a right answer. One of us has no right answer.

catspa
July 21, 2009, 05:43 PM
"No bigger than any of your other pants..."

Parker

2beararms
July 21, 2009, 06:37 PM
Florida is a NO open carry state and in most areas LEO consider Concealed means Concealed pretty seriously. Even printing is not a good thing but having part of your weapon exposed can bring on some serious heat.

Jamie C.
July 21, 2009, 07:03 PM
CCW means Concealed.

I guess it's a good thing my permit says "Open or Concealed" then, 'cause most of the time, I couldn't care less if someone sees my gun.

I'm afraid I fall into that category of really just not giving a good flying damn what some soccer mom or panic-laden bliss-ninny thinks. And I certainly know most of the cops around here, so usually end up talking to one of 'em when I see them out, anyway.

It'd probably give 'em a real giggle to get called to a "man with a gun", only to find out it was me. :evil:

Anyway, I just see the whole issue as people worrying over nothing, since the only time I'd probably be concerned over how well I had the thing concealed is if I were someplace that I wasn't supposed to be armed. Which isn't likely to happen, since I try to avoid such places altogether. ;)


J.C.

offroaddiver
July 21, 2009, 09:02 PM
I just laugh at the "trying to look casual". I do remember reading something about TN changing the wording... Not sure when. Since i don't have a permit I don't keep up with it... mostly keep up with what would get the cuffs slapped on me.
Anyone know if they got rid of the silly law about gun and ammo in same area (range bag)?
Last time i checked ammo and gun had to be atleast out of immediate reach of driver and in seperate bags, No ammo in magazines but clips ok.

Deltaboy
July 21, 2009, 09:47 PM
TX needs to change it's law!

thesolidus
July 22, 2009, 09:13 AM
2 words...
Man Purse!

Briefcase carry, backpack, fanny pack, small organizer, or Maxpedition bag.
My max bag is designed for carry, plus fits the other detrious without wearing a fishing vest or batman belt.
If I really want to wear on body, really you have to go crotch holster. People look at you funny when you adjust the gun at your armpit, or hip. But us guys scratch, lift, shift and move things at our crotch-al region all the time! So it's natural! And even if they are looking (most avoid looking directly at a mans crotch) they'll just see a long pipe-like buldge there and think you have some weird equipment.

MikePaiN
July 22, 2009, 11:20 AM
Are you KIDDING? With your gun poking out from your belly all the time? Right up in front where anyone facing you will notice it? Where your arms don't offer any visual and physical shield to guard its location? Whaddaya, NUTS?
Are you serious ...Sam?
I carry exactly like Kwanger...my PF ItW at 1oc, nothing ever "pokes out", not sitting, bending over, not walking into the wind, not ever, the grip is an inch or so above my belt line and pressed flat against my abs, very concealed, no one has ever noticed or even so much as looked twice.

Sam1911
July 22, 2009, 12:16 PM
Are you serious ...Sam?
I carry exactly like Kwanger...my PF ItW at 1oc, nothing ever "pokes out", not sitting, bending over, not walking into the wind, not ever, the grip is an inch or so above my belt line and pressed flat against my abs, very concealed, no one has ever noticed or even so much as looked twice.

Only sort of. My point was that there are very vaild reasons that different people choose to carry the gun that they do, in the holster that they do, and with the cover (or lack of it) that they choose. Just because one person's choices DON'T satisfy someone else doesn't mean they are invalid or worth ridicule.

I know that there are a bunch of folks who like "appendix-carry" at 1-2 o'clock. Not the majority of gun-toters, by far, but some. It has drawbacks that some folks can't live with, either because they've got some extra gut which makes it uncomfortable, or their body shape and posture make the gun stand out (print) like a lump on a basketball under their shirt, or they don't like not having it tucked away to the side where their arm naturally drapes over to cover the profile and provide a physical barrier from contact with other folks. Some might point out that the gun would be harder to draw in some positions (especially if knocked down/prone) and that the draw stroke will be minimally slower. WHATEVER the reasons (and I'm not looking to argue any of them) everyone makes their choices, find what works for their comfort level, and goes about their business.

Just because another "gun guy" can spot your carry piece doesn't mean you're a lesser "operator," or such foolishness.

-Sam

Kwanger
July 22, 2009, 12:28 PM
Yeah, I understood what Sam meant, and I do see that point of view. My method of carry was just a personal input to add some weight to the first part of my statement.

Regardless of carry method, the point I was trying to get across is that I take pride in absolutely ensuring that I'll not be detected carrying....it's a hangover from my past, and to me its about maintaining my own professional standards, and I do still hold myself to them; can't help it.

And because I do, I personally disagree with all of this 'I don't give a rats azz who sees it, its my right' - if your permit says concealed, thats what it means to me, not 'I'll be sloppy and do it in a half azzed way because it doesn't matter' Period. Others mileage obviously does vary; fine....mine doesn't.

Sam1911
July 22, 2009, 01:00 PM
I take pride in absolutely ensuring that I'll not be detected carrying
And some folks carry openly -- with pride. And some folks conceal to some in-between level that affords them the convinience of deflecting most passing glances but remains comfortable and condusive to their ends. Different strokes...no reason to be judgemental towards each other about it.

if your permit says concealed, thats what it means to me
Oh. Maybe that's the problem? My permit says "License To Carry Firearms," perod.

'I'll be sloppy and do it in a half azzed way because it doesn't matter' Funny, a great many of our mothers, grandmothers, and old school marms would pitch a fit if they saw how many of us run around with our shirt-tails untucked. Talk about SLOPPY! All in the eye of the beholder, you know?

-Sam

Kwanger
July 22, 2009, 02:08 PM
Oh, I do actually agree with you.....all I have said I'll stress is my opinion only, and only applies to me....the OP asked for opinions, and that's mine!

You are right about the permit type also being an issue...as has been mentioned by someone else, in my state (FL) they are fairly strict about the 'concealed' aspect.

Oh, and while we are on the whole permitting subject, in the spirit of this thread....I believe that all above mentioned soccer moms should require one for the privilege of being a soccer mom, as they are far more dangerous than any CCWer! ;)

armoredman
July 22, 2009, 02:38 PM
I carry two guns in Arizona heat, (gonna do it again here in an hour when I run to Phoenix), compact size, IWB, XXL t-shirt, no printing, and I am getting "portly" >:( myself - too much sit down work in the last 8 months.
Here's summer carry, with the PCR out of sight in a Bianchi M-100 IWB rig.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/czandhbe.jpg

and Winter carry,

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/doubledown.jpg

With the concealment garment being a Wolverine brown vest, which is really all you need in AZ winter, usually. :)

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/newangle2.jpg

Jamie C.
July 22, 2009, 02:51 PM
And because I do, I personally disagree with all of this 'I don't give a rats azz who sees it, its my right' - if your permit says concealed, thats what it means to me, not 'I'll be sloppy and do it in a half azzed way because it doesn't matter' Period. Others mileage obviously does vary; fine....mine doesn't.

Well, you can disagree all you like, but honestly, at least here, it DOESN'T matter. Nor should it. There's just not too many people that will go into a panic over seeing a gun on somebody's hip. And those that would, usually just get laughed at for making a fuss over nothing.

And personally, I kind'a like it that way.

I don't worry about concealing a cell phone, car keys, pocket knife, or any number of other things I carry around with me, after all. And there's really no difference between those things and my gun; they're all just "necessary evils" that have to be hauled around during day-to-day goings-on.

Anyway... anybody who chooses to walk around in "stealth mode" all the time... fine by me. For those of you that HAVE to or else, though... so sorry. 'Cause it really shouldn't have to be that way, I think.


J.C.

SSN Vet
July 22, 2009, 10:52 PM
stupid is as stupid does :rolleyes:

tangomike706
July 23, 2009, 12:50 AM
Again I have the PA Lic. To Carry Firearms , i make a reasonable effort to conceal , for various reasons , and have never (that I know of ) been made but in my area .. it wouldnt draw as much as a second look, from most, but I live in a tri border area (NY/NJ/PA) and Ive noticed varying degrees of acceptance from non residents(see also NJ Antis) .. I conceal to avoid being called in as "A Guy with a gun "

freakshow10mm
July 23, 2009, 01:02 AM
I don't really care who knows I carry a gun. I get dressed put on my gun and go on with life.

NavyLCDR
July 23, 2009, 01:06 AM
I don't really care who knows I carry a gun. I get dressed put on my gun and go on with life.

+1 to that, Freakshow!

oak1971
July 23, 2009, 01:31 AM
Low key is never a bad idea.

kanewpadle
July 23, 2009, 01:37 AM
Low key is never a bad idea.
Exactly. No chest thumping. No bravado. No "hey look at me I got a gun!".

Concealed mean concealed. Cut and dried.

freakshow10mm
July 23, 2009, 01:44 AM
Concealed means cowardly.

kanewpadle
July 23, 2009, 02:20 AM
Concealed means cowardly.
You prove my point with this idiotic post.

Sam1911
July 23, 2009, 08:23 AM
Concealed mean concealed. Cut and dried.
Unless "concealed" isn't a requirement -- and we've shown here and elsewhere that it isn't in MOST states. Your personal carry "philosophy" may dictate that YOU will only do it in a specific way, but there's no moral high ground here -- on either side.

Some folks don't want to go concealed -- at all -- as an exercise of rights and to heighten public awareness and acceptance.
Concealed means cowardly.
That's a little strong, isn't it? I see your point, but there are many very practical reasons to conceal your gun that have nothing to do with cowardice/fear. Better to say that, for some folks "concealed" means bowing to convienience and/or social pressure against guns.
And, to carry it further, maybe it means that your carry philosophy aligns more with the folks who prefer to maintain the element of surprise in potential violent encounters.

Guess what? All of these -- and anything in between -- ane perfectly valid points.

You prove my point with this idiotic post.
This is absurd. We're bickering like 3rd graders over how each of us chooses to exercise our rights. It's an individual choice so long as we're following the letter of the law in our jurisdiction. What's with the preachy, jundgemental, riding of everyone down who doesn't do it just your way? (Either way!)

Different strokes...no reason to be judgemental towards each other about it. No reason to be a bunch of babies -- or to act like high-society blue-bloods looking down your nose at anyone who doesn't do it your way.

For every one of us who one of us who only carries pefectly concealed -- there are guys who conceal DEEPER and would consider your methods irresponsible. For every one of us who only carry open -- there are those who are even BOLDER and more uninhibited than you. SO WHAT?

All this communal self-loathing is just embarrasing. Be happy that your fellow shooters choose to exercise their rights -- AT ALL -- and go on about your life!

Sheesh...:rolleyes:

-Sam

springmom
July 23, 2009, 09:16 AM
Concealed means cowardly.
What nonsense. Concealed, in many states, means "following the law so I don't get my rear end busted".

Sheesh.

Jan

LemmyCaution
July 23, 2009, 09:29 AM
Concealed mean concealed. Cut and dried.


Maybe where you are 'concealed' is a legal term with a very specific definition attached to it. Other places, not so much- for example, Vermont, which has no restrictions on how one carries a handgun. As such, the term 'concealed' has no legal meaning whatsoever here. Cut and dried.

I think you're experiencing a bit of mission creep in 'truths we hold to be self-evident' department.

freakshow10mm
July 23, 2009, 11:43 AM
And, to carry it further, maybe it means that your carry philosophy aligns more with the folks who prefer to maintain the element of surprise in potential violent encounters.
Element of surprise is an offensive action, not a defensive action. No army trains their soldiers to conceal their arms in case they are attacked. They train them to have their arms out and exposed so they can attack before they are attacked. Do cops conceal their arms on duty in case a criminal attacks them? They wear them openly.

Springmom, that's why I will never live in a state that prohibits open carry, like TX.

Kwanger
July 23, 2009, 12:43 PM
Element of surprise is an offensive action, not a defensive action. No army trains their soldiers to conceal their arms in case they are attacked. They train them to have their arms out and exposed so they can attack before they are attacked. Do cops conceal their arms on duty in case a criminal attacks them? They wear them openly.

Springmom, that's why I will never live in a state that prohibits open carry, like TX.
No army trains their soldiers to conceal their weapons? Right......

I think you'll find that for soldiers who require it, there's training on what is appropriate and when.

Unless your house happens to be on a battlefield, and all the places you go to are on a battlefield, I can't really see your point.

Sam1911
July 23, 2009, 01:12 PM
Element of surprise is an offensive action, not a defensive action.

I really don't intend to get into debating the merits of either position. Just pointing out how different folks have legitimately differing views on the matter.

However, I disagree with your statement here. The element of surprise CAN be a very valuable defensive tool. This has been debated many times on this site and elsewhere, but the jist of it is that, a violent actor who does not know that you are armed is less likely to be able to react instantly to your defensive act than one who is aware of your gun and your intent to react against him. A hold-up man in a mini-mart who's about to eliminate the witnesses is at a disadvantage if he doesn't know that one of the witnesses is armed. If he saw an openly carried gun on someone's hip, maybe he wouldn't have held the place up -- maybe he would have, who knows? But explosive, violent reaction to the threat of violence can only be AIDED by the possibility of an unexpectedcounter-attack.

No army trains their soldiers to conceal their arms in case they are attacked. They train them to have their arms out and exposed so they can attack before they are attacked. A soldier's job is quite different from that of a civilian practicing self-defense, though. A soldier's job is to take the fight to the enemy -- offensively if at all possible -- and at as great a range as possible. Or to defend a known position with force of arms. Further, the presence of a military uniform implies the means of delivering deadly force, so concealment would be pointless.

A citizen is charged with no such obligations, nor does he/she have the freedom to act in that way.

Purely offensive action being off-limits to the civilian in public, you're left with the argument of the openly-carried weapon as a deterrant to violent attack. It is valid to believe that a gun on your hip would encourage some attackers to avoid you. It is also valid to reason that this simply gives the more bold/aggressive types the opportunity to change tactics.

If you carry concealed, you don't know if another citizen will attack you, and no other person knows if you have the means and will to fight back. You're on even ground, with the exception that an attacker will always have the element of surprise over you. If you carry openly, you've given that small bit of strategic advantage (for whatever it's worth) away, and now an attacker knows that you would act and HOW. Again, some may choose to avoid you. Some may choose to shoot you from behind and score a nice new free weapon.

Once more, I don't necessarily adhere strongly to either side of this argument. Statistics to give evidence of liklihood of either eventuality are hard to come by. We all step out into the world prepared as best we can be for the threats that we expect we are most lilkely to face. If you feel that you're more likely to ward off trouble by openly carrying, that's fine for you. If someone else desires to keep the surprise advantage that they believe exists, that's fine for them -- a gun isn't a magic talisman that wards off evil.

And some folks live in places where these decisions are not (legally) up to them.

Do cops conceal their arms on duty in case a criminal attacks them? They wear them openly
They wear them openly as part of their uniform -- as a badge of authority and a visible representation of the lethal force they are empowered to use while enforcing the law. A civilian has none of this authority or duty. Further, there are plenty of reasons besides the visible weapon for a violent actor to not attack a police officer. (Little gain in it even if successful, massive repurcussions, high probability of back-up or patrol partners nearby and the near instant communication/reporting of the incident over the police radio that will make escape difficult, etc.) There are a great many things that a police officer would do that are not applicable to the civilian on the street.

And, lastly, if the LEO angle is truly valid, why do the majority of off-duty cops (the few who carry off-duty, anyway :rolleyes:) carry concealed? Why not just throw on the duty rig with jeans and a polo shirt when they hit the town?

Springmom, that's why I will never live in a state that prohibits open carry, like TX. Agreed. I'd hate to say "NEVER," but I'm glad I don't have to worry about it.

-Sam

ArmedBear
July 23, 2009, 01:17 PM
Exactly. No chest thumping. No bravado. No "hey look at me I got a gun!".


IMO, unless it's a state requirement, making such a big deal about keeping the gun 110% concealed 25 hours per day is the same sort of "chest thumping." Calling someone else an idiot because he isn't like you most assuredly is.

I conceal in town because I want to avoid "look at me I've got a gun!" I also don't think that having the gun is such a big deal like you do, kanewpaddle.

You really think you're so damned important that a glimpse of a grip in your pocket will make the world grind to a halt? I think you may suffer from a different manifestation of the same problem as someone who wants to flaunt the thing.

ArmedBear
July 23, 2009, 01:27 PM
The element of surprise CAN be a very valuable defensive tool. This has been debated many times on this site and elsewhere, but the jist of it is that, a violent actor who does not know that you are armed is less likely to be able to react instantly to your defensive act than one who is aware of your gun and your intent to react against him.

I agree with you there. However, this must be balanced with the accessibility of the gun.

If "concealed" means you have to draw a lot of attention to yourself and/or take more than a split second to get the thing out, you've really lost that element of surprise, except that you're probably going to be surprised at what it feels like to get shot.

That extra assurance that nobody, ever, under any circumstances, will ever know you have a gun, because it's so well buried under layers of clothing, can also render that firearm useless for self-defense.

Everything needs to be considered in the greater context, here.

Purely offensive action being off-limits to the civilian in public, you're left with the argument of the openly-carried weapon as a deterrant to violent attack.

Not at all.

If I'm open carrying in the city, it's probably because I am on the way to the mountains, all geared up with equipment including the gun, and I stopped to get gas. Violent attack at the gas station has nothing to do with why I'm open carrying. I just don't see the need to make it a point to hide my gun at that point, because it can be a PITA to undo a belt holster. I'm just not such an important mall ninja as to have to conceal every gun I ever have with me so I can fight off hordes of enemy ninja at any time.:)

Sam1911
July 23, 2009, 01:43 PM
I agree with you there.Well, thanks, but I wasn't really even stating my carry philosophy as much as I was trying to point out that there are many valid points and calling each other names over which we might choose is mind-bogglingly dumb.

Save that kind of vitreol for which light beer is less filling...:barf:

However, this must be balanced with the accessibility of the gun.
I was going to post that exact thing but I felt I was running a bit long.

I was going to point out that a practiced civilian can often draw from reasonably adequate concealment (say a camp shirt, untucked but buttoned) faster than can the average LEO from an openly-carried level-II retention holster. Obviously this has a lot to do with the level of training/practice of both individuals, but I've seen this many times first-hand.

Put that concealed weapon in a tuckable IWB under an Oxford shirt and a sport coat, and the speed will change -- maybe a lot, maybe a little. Deep conceal it, like in a Smart Carry/Thunderwear rig, ankle-holster, man-purse or day-planner "un-holster", or in a fanny pack, and now the draw is WAY off.

(Que all the folks who say they can draw and fire an 8" .500 S&W from their Thunderwear under Levis 501s and a snow-mobile suit in under 8/10s of a second...)

Those are all still reasonable options depending on your comfort level and situation.

My biggest problem with this whole thread (aside from the childish derision) is that anything like middle ground seems to be attacked vehemently from both sides. Just weird.

-Sam

Sam1911
July 23, 2009, 01:52 PM
Purely offensive action being off-limits to the civilian in public, you're left with the argument of the openly-carried weapon as a deterrant to violent attack. Not at all.

If I'm open carrying in the city, it's probably because ...
Oh, sure. I didn't mean to say that was the only reason to open-carry. That came out a little wrong.

Freakshow had said: [Armies] train [soldiers] to have their arms out and exposed so they can attack before they are attacked. and I was simply pointing out the strategic error of thinking that this applied to civilians, and illustrating the possible valid "strategic" benefits (to your success in a violent encounter) of having your gun open to view.

Pure convinience and, as I said before, a visible show of your exercise of your rights are all valid reasons to O.C.

-Sam

ArmedBear
July 23, 2009, 04:54 PM
My biggest problem with this whole thread (aside from the childish derision) is that anything like middle ground seems to be attacked vehemently from both sides. Just weird.

Well, I hope you didn't mind my use of derision (sometimes childish and certainly not aimed at you) to support the middle ground...:D

oldfool
July 23, 2009, 05:37 PM
a lot of good posts in this thread, well worth the read
(Sam1911, ArmedBear, springmom, others)

"Concealed means cowardly" was not one of them, though

"concealed" means concealed
"open" means open
specific legal definitions are for people who feel the need to dispute what the meaning of the word "is" is
responsible citizens of a free republic have choices, and ought respect the choices of other responsible citizens who respect their choices

"momma raised a fool, not an idiot child"

SharpsDressedMan
July 23, 2009, 05:44 PM
The concealed/not concealed problem would quickly be solved if law enforcement officers from any given state were also to abide by the prescibed carry specifications in their state. A cop should not arrest you for anything they might do themselves. If they were held to the same standards (it's not yet that way in Ohio, and we have a problem here), then the whole issue would be resolved. As the fella from Geogia stated, the cop told him to hide his gun. Would that cop scold another GA police officer for accidentally exposing his concelaed weapon? Eliminate the double standard and the problem goes way........

RatDrall
July 23, 2009, 06:02 PM
CCW means Concealed.

I used to live in TN, and my old permit says "Handgun Carry Permit". Nowhere does it say "CCW" or "Concealed Carry License".

I carried openly, often, when I lived in TN and only once did I catch any heat for it, and the ignorant clerk was corrected by her manager for hassling law abiding customers.

I understand that some people don't like it when others carry open, but they really need to realize that in this country people should be left alone unless they are hurting someone else. Your "needs" are different from someone elses, not to mention that we can always be wrong in our views and need to change. If we went by what we "need" we wouldn't be allowed to carry at all, because 99.99% of people will never need a gun to defend themselves in the first place.

Kudos to those who carry in the open, it helps to desensitize an uneducated public to the presence of firearms. If more gun owners carried openly, more people would be fine with the idea of law abiding citizens carrying guns.

pittspilot
July 25, 2009, 11:51 AM
There is a gal who owns the sandwich shop across from where I work who open carries a Glock. (Subcompact model). There are often police eating there who are open carrying. I have gone into the store with co-workers who will be served by this gal and utterly fail to notice the gun until I point it out. People are just not observant of their environment.

I do conceal, but have become less paranoid. Thus far, I have only been made once when this couple spotted the gun when I went to pick up my 2 year old son. Anti-gun folks they were happily chatting with me before I picked up my son and then went silent when they spotted the gun.

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
July 26, 2009, 03:02 PM
i carry a full size S&W Sigma auto in .40. Grandfather Oak kydex IWB every day no matter the weather. in the last few months its been hot as hell here in seattle so i just wear a T-shirt and jeans. every once in a while i print. i don't care though because ive never had a problem and quite honestly i could care less if some liberal freaks out because they see the outline of the corner of the grip.

i used to care if people saw it or saw it printing when i first got my permit, but after 3 years i don't care. let them worry them selves while i enjoy my day.

mljdeckard
July 26, 2009, 04:04 PM
You know what? I don't care. The people who are going to notice are other gun guys, and I don't care if they know. Follow the law, and some places have laws that forbid printing, but I'm in one of them. In 14 years of carrying, I'm not aware that I've ever been made, but it wouldn't matter to me if I were.

I open carried all day yesterday, fueling a truck and ATVs, and going out to the desert to play. Big fat who cares.

kanewpadle
July 26, 2009, 04:28 PM
As evidenced by the above two posts, open carry guys always seem to say "I don't care". Rather irresponsible attitude for someone carrying a gun. But that seems to be the open carry mentality.

I have asked repeatedly why people open carry and usually get the same BS. Always some badass that doesn't care about anything but himself. They can't give an honest ITELLIGENT answer either because they doen't have one or don't know any better.

I live in the Seattle area also. I have seen open carry guys get "rousted" or even arrested. They have gotten their CPL taken away and their guns too.

Is it worth trying to show the whole world your a badass? I don't think so.

HammerG26
July 26, 2009, 05:01 PM
Heck - I have one of the Woolrich Elite vests... used to wear it when my oldest was a small toddler - dang thing kept the 1911 concealed, held a couple of diapers, a pacifer, and a couple of wipes, my phone and wallet... it was amazing... :)
Most of my neighbors thought I was just REALLY into fishing or photography... and these are people that I hang out with a lot...
Only after another incident (another story - and long) that they realized it was for something else...

mljdeckard
July 26, 2009, 05:18 PM
kanewpadle-

I re-read my post, and I realized that I left out a critical 'not'. It is perfectly legal to open carry where I live. This is why I first emphasized. FOLLOW THE LAW.

Having said that, I don't care. I use discretion, I know there's a possibility of doing our cause more harm than good by deliberately open carrying in a time and place where it will ruffle feathers. But I'm a responsible professional with the law, common sense, training, and precedent on my side. I CHOOSE to live in a place where this is the prevailing attitude.

And I know how to spell "intelligent".

Runflat
July 26, 2009, 06:09 PM
My CT permit says "State Permit to Carry Pistols and Revolvers"

When I began looking around to determine whether or not my pistol needed to be 100% concealed 100% of the time it proved to be very gray area. Our state laws do not require the weapon to be concealed. It does however say the following

Q36. Does my permit to carry pistols and revolvers permit me to carry on my person?

A. Yes. However, mature judgment dictates that every effort should be made to make sure that no gun is exposed to view or carried in any manner that would tend to alarm

I have only once had a person suspect me of carrying a gun. I happened to be in a gun store with my Maxpediton Fatboy in OD, when an "gentleman" (I'm being polite) told me that my bag looked like a gun bag and that I should throw it out and get something else. Before I could tell him to shove it and tell him that he too looked suspicious I bit my tongue. I politely told him that I only use the bag when I go to work and that scrubs don't have pockets and the cops that we routinely have at my ER don't really seem to notice. I wanted to tell him that he should pay more attention to his own attire. When you wear pants with a long sleeved shirt and a vest in 80 degree weather it's not suspicious at all. I just shook my head told the store owner I would see him later and walked away.

rbernie
July 26, 2009, 06:16 PM
All that can be said has been said. Anything more is simply a rehash of the stuff that was written first time y'all talked past each other. ;)

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