[millsman]

I am fortunate enough to have an original rifle with lock by James E. Evans and barrel by Joseph Jacobs both Philadelphia gunsmiths in the 1860s.

I had obtained it at an auction some years ago it is a half stock caplock with set triggers, very shallow rifling

Really accurate for some seasons and now erratic.

Example this past weekend 1st round X, 2nd touching the bull, 3rd 3:00 in the 3 ring, 4th 6:00 in the 2 ring, 5th stopped in the bore about three inches down.had to be pulled showed scraping through the patch.

It has been suggested that a super cleaning effort might resolve my problems

(so have already spent over an hour with probably 20 patches with water hot enough that I had to use a glove to hold the barrel, followed by at least a dozen coated with J&B and in-between 00000 steel wool)

I plan on going to the range to test but if this was not the solution then getting a head start it has been suggested that some fine polishing compounds might also help such as those found on

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9206/Product/SPECIAL_POLISHING_COMPOUND_KIT if so suggestions? how to best apply to a patch etc.. ??

or even

http://www.valvegrindingcompound.com/product.sc?categoryId=1&productId=3 to much ??yes? no?

Don't know if this question belongs in gunsmithing, open to all opinions

Thanks

[Das Jaeger]

like it needs a complete de-leading . Your darn lucky it didn't blow your face off when the round got stuck in the barrel , not good .
If you can't afford the fancy tool , start with Hoppes #9 , soak , re-soak , soak , re-soak and get it all out of there . If it has a breech plug , try to remove it possibly , but don't risk damge to that fine old beast . No amount of hot water is going to do diddly squwat to leading problems . Brownells sells plenty of de-leader solutions , use them if Hoppes don't work . When your patch is totally clean , then I would Moly the barrrel and it will enver be that big of a problem again . JMTcents , worth one :D

Das Jaeger , good luck

[Cosmoline]

it has been suggested that some fine polishing compounds

I've never heard such a thing. That's for polishing metal, which includes eliminating any parts that stick up. Do that to the inside of a barrel and you're liable to make yourself a fowling gun!

I agree a de-leading is in order. Also make sure everything is tight and squared away.

[arcticap]

He's describing JB Bore paste which is used to polish and smoothen the bore as a sort of "micro-lapping".

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=jb+bore+paste/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=jb_bore_paste

I'm not sure how a barrel would lead up if the round ball is wrapped in a thick enough patch.
If it's powder residue that's clogging the barrel, then try swabbing between shots and/or using less powder. What kind of patches and patch lube are you using? Are the patches thick enough and have enough lube applied?
A super cleaning may help.

Bore pitting can make fouling worse and in that case bore paste can help to clean & smooth out the bore or even valve grinding compound as a last resort. How rough is the bore?

Because you mention having such shallow rifling, if nothing else works, maybe your barrel's rifling needs to be refreshened which is less drastic than reboring.
These reputable outfits can refresh, rebore, or maybe even reline the barrel if nothing else works.

Bobby Hoyt 700 Fairfield Station Road Fairfield, Pennsylvania 17320
(717) 642-6696 BARREL

or

Ed Rayl
P.O. Box 91
Gassaway WV 26624
phone: 304-364-8269

[Hawkeye748]

I agree, sounds like de-leading needed. There is a very good product for de-leading from Novum Solutions called Blue Wonder Gun cleaner. It is the best and easiest way I have found to de-lead a barrel. If badly deleaded, it may take up to 3 treatments, but this stuff has salvaged many barrels folks were going to have relined, thinking they were shot out.

It has also been sold under the name Barrel Blaster Wonder Gel under CVA label at Wal-Mart. Very Good Product.

[mykeal]

I'm with articap here. I see no mechanism for leading when shooting patched round balls. I've never heard of that happening.

BP fouling seems most likely the culprit, so swabbing between shots should clear it up.

What's changed since it was reliably accurate - powder, cleaning compound/method, patch material, bore/patch/lube, etc.

[Das Jaeger]

you two gurus forgot he mentioned it was scratched through the patch ?
Hmm , fouling don't cause that . :D
I have also never known many patch to stay in front of and on side of ball very long going down a barrel at 1,400 FPS either . On fire no less . :D
But , hey , you guys can be RIGHT this time though , hee hee hee . :D

Cheers , Das Jaeger

[arcticap]

The patch could be too thin, the ball too large in addition to fouling or pitting.

With the gun being that old I doubt if the rifling is too sharp, but maybe it's old with rough edges.

With shallow rifling, the grooves aren't deep enough to hold much fouling.
So then it needs to be wiped out every shot or two.
Patch lube can help to keep it soft.
Some lubes like Bore Butter have a higher viscosity, others are more liquid.
One might lubricate the patch better and help to keep the fouling softer over another which could delay swabbing for an extra shot maybe.
Also, loading a wool or fiber wad under the ball might help to act as a gas check and stop some blow by. It depends on the condition of his bore, breech & rifling though.
It would help if millsman provided a little more info..
Are you spit patching? :rolleyes:

[mykeal]

Ripped or cut patches are symptomatic of sharp or jagged rifling. They do not result in lead being deposited on the barrel.

Patches do indeed stay with the ball through the barrel - the patch is what imparts the spin from the rifling. They can be torn off by jagged edges on the rifling, but if that happens the ball is not a press fit in the barrel; it will lose any spin it had gained and will bounce off the walls. Lead can be removed from the ball when that happens but it's in chunks, rather than being deposited on the barrel walls by rubbing. This rough rifling and subsequent loss of the patch in the barrel could be the cause of the large grouping. You should be able to feel that when the ball/patch is loaded or when using a dry patch on a cleaning jag. The force required to move the rod will vary as a function of moving down the bore. The dry patch may even get stuck part way down.

[Macgille]

1st X, 2nd touching the bull, swab the bore, lube patch, 3rd in the bull, 4th touching, swab the bore, lube patch etc.
My Hawken has shallow rifling and I swab the bore every other shot to maintain accuracy. If I don't the rounds start to diverge from the tight groups I get when I do. Good Luck

[Das Jaeger]

if I am wrong here , but I always thought the ball and patch expanded into
the rifling grooves upon explosion , thus tearing into the patch as it travels down the barrel and thats why the patch comes out last . At least on my guns it does . :D I also think it leaves plenty of lead behind anyway regardless :) ..........If his gun has shallow rifling ( filled up with lead obviously :D ) it would rip the patch up because there aint enough room for ball and patch anymore , hence the last one he shot got stuck and he nearly killed himself . Fouling wouldn't do that I woudln't think ? But hey, what do I know anyway .
If it was just fouled out it would be an easy clean and not a problem right ?
Doesn't appear to be that problem since he's cleaning well to try to relieve that problem ? Just sayin :D

Das Jaeger

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

The ball and patch DO NOT expand into the groove upon firing. They are
already there. They just go along for the ride. I can use my patches over
again if I wanted to after firing. They are that perfect. I use .320 balls in
a .32 bore with .010 patch. In rifle, I use a .454 ball in a .450 bore rifle.
Groove depth is .010 in all my guns . Also use a .410 ball in .40 cal bore
rifle. What works, works. .022 patch in rifle& .010 in pistols. Been at
this for over 45 years.

[sundance44s]

Shooting soft lead as in balls ...will not cause leading even if the patch tore off .
How many grains of powder were you useing when the ball lodged in the barrel ...I would be more worried about a buldged barrel right now .
I have also picked up my used patches , relubed and reused ....
Shallow rifleing is common in some of the better barrels ...like GreenMountain barrels .

[mykeal]

Yes, the ball/patch do not expand on firing. The ball/patch combination should be a press fit on loading, with the patch material being compressed (ideally the recovered ball will show impressions of the patch material weave) into the ball and the grooves. This is called the gas seal; if the ball/patch combination are not tightly packed the expanding gas will escape around the ball and it won't go anywhere.

[4v50 Gary]

Might also want to check the muzzle. Non-concentric muzzles will throw balls off.

[jim147]

You wouldn't be able to load the thing if it was bad enough a ball got stuck on the way out.
You need to look farther then cleaning the barrel.

jim

[Hawkeye748]

I disagree that a patched round ball will not lead a barrel. I have seen many a patch shift to the point lead was directly in contact with the barrel. In addition I have seen charges burn the patch before leaving the barrel resulting in the lead contacting the barrel.

In addition, the rifle is 140 years old. I seriously doubt only patched round ball has been shot through the barrel. Bare balls, minie balls, REAL bullets, compression style bullets and others might have been shot in the weapon. Standard cleaning will not get the lead out. You have to attack it vigorously.

A proper de-leading will also clean the barrel enough to tell you exactly what the problem is. The product I mentioned will get everything out, fouling, lead, copper, zinc, tin, etc., to the bare metal even in the pitting. Follow with Hoppe's no. 9 and you will know what shape the barrel is in. Oil the barrel well afterwards because there will be NOTHING to keep the metal from rusting in the regualr air humidity.

Good luck finding what is wrong.

[Das Jaeger]

what he said !

Jaeger :D :banghead:

[millsman]

Thanks everybody for taking the time to suggest what might be the problem and various solutions.

As ultra cleaning seems to be the consensus your thoughts on

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=9704/Product/FOUL_OUT_III

[arcticap]

IMO that product is designed to primarily remove copper and lead.
Have you fired many lead conical bullets with your rifle?

If your barrel was examined with a bore scope, it might provide some useful info. about its overall condition. Maybe you can locate a gunsmith that has one?

Is there something that you don't like about the JB Bore Paste cleaning products?


http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/cid=0/k=jb+bore+paste/t=P/ksubmit=y/Products/All/search=jb_bore_paste

[rifle]

Sounds like a "cleaning between shots" problem where there is none. If the first shots were good and the last not it seems to reason that the barrel is good enough and simply isn't being cleaned between shots as most muzzleloaders need done to keep the accuracy.
Mykeal described the way a ball/patch should fit to the tee. In that range anyway....some rifles like a tighter ball than others but they are all supposed to be tight. A ball/patch combo that's too tight will shoot crappy. To loose shoots crappy too.
Anyway...I'd shoot the rifle again and swab the bore after every shot or two the way it has to be done with blackpowder and all the fouling.
I wouldn't be trying to lap the bore without knowing the proper way. I'd skip the steel wool and the abrasive componds for fear of ruining the barrel. JB Bore Cleaner would be alright since it's non-embedding.
An old rifle may need the crown made concentric with the bore like was mentioned.
Remove the breech plug? Be careful there since it could be really tight and it may cause big problems trying to get it out of such an old barrel. Having a knowledgeble gunsmith remove the breech plug to examine the threads and all wouldn't be a bad idea though in such an old rifle.
If there is lead in the barrel that should be gotten out. It could be there from prior people shooting lead projectiles without a patch. The shallow rifling could mean the barrel has a shallow grooved fast twist to it meant for conical bullets(shot without patches). Those rifles were being made around the time the rifle was made. Long range target and hunting rifles with the fast twist and shallow grooves were getting common around the 1860's. 40 cal. was a common one. They are still around maybe because initially they were target rifles and not everyday hunting tools used to the nubs. Being a half stock also may be indicative of a target rifle with fast twist shallow grooves.
Sounds like a cool rifle. Ifin I were shooting it I'd examine the bore and it would be obvious with a light if it were a fast twist barrel. If there's any sign of a false muzzle that's been lost would prove it. The octagon barrel round about an inch on the muzzle end? Any holes around the front face of the muzzle end?
Those false muzzled fast twist target rifles are really cool especially if the false muzzle is still with the gun
It the rifling is fast and shallow then an anemic powder load would be best for using round balls and patches...... so the ball doesn't strip thru the rifling.
Anyway.....clean between shots and see what happens.

[millsman]

I just put the rifle away,then decided to send the barrel to Robert Hoyt who everyone on many forums said was the barrel guy.It came back after rebore,reassembled,first shot at this weekends turkey shoot offhand 25 yards.Thank you Mr. Hoyt.http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f382/steibls200/IMG_1441.jpg

[BHP FAN]

I LOVE a story with a happy ending!

[Oyeboten]

Cool Target too!


Glad to hear all ended up well.


You know, I do not shoot Rifle, or so far, only Cap and Ball Revolver.


But if I was going to shoot Rifle, I would use a thin Lube Wad ( Bee's Wax and Olive Oil mix, impregnated while Molten into Paper Towel, cut out into right diameter discs with a round Hole Punch ) between Patched Ball and Powder.

This would eliminate any hard fouling and make clean up a breeze.


Make sure your Lead is 'soft' too...of course..!

[arcticap]

Thanks for the update millsman.
Please give us some more details.
What did he do exactly, did the rebore increase the caliber and by how much?
How much did it cost?
The result certainly looks great! :)

[millsman]

Not sure what the exact bore measurments were prior to sending but I was using a Hornady.433 ball and .010 Wonderlube patch. Now bored to .45 (Hoyt said then when he does this he follows the original lands and grooves and only opens it up as little as possible) so Hornady.440 and .015 Wonderlube patch.Cost was a very reasonable $115.00 but I have no idea if this was a typical job so cannot say if this was high or low for his work but I thought it was very reasonable.