Florida Pythons: Prepare to be "Judged!"


July 21, 2009, 06:10 PM

Chalk up another black eye for the state of Florida, my home. A couple of weeks ago, a hillbilly's pet python escaped from its cage and killed the man's 2 year old daughter. It made headlines across the nation-- and exposed a growing problem that Floridians have been aware of for years. You see, the Everglades is crawling with killer snakes. Giant, man-eating snakes who are not native to these parts.

To learn more, simply flip on the History, Discovery, or Science channels and you'll see specials documenting the chaos in south Florida. You'll be shocked. Conservative estimates are in the neighborhood of 30,000+ giant snakes in the Everglades alone-- and realistically it's closer to 100k. Over the years, village idiots from all over Florida have released their "pets" into the wild and they have multiplied with extreme prejudice-- as these jumbo reptiles have no natural predators. Once in awhile a gator gets one, but most of the time these snakes are unchecked-- wreaking havoc on the local wildlife population.

Now, our government is trying to tackle the issue by throwing money at the problem. When in fact, we should be throwing LEAD at the problem. The brilliant thinkers in our government are spending $10 million over two years to have some eggheads research the problem and come up with a solution. Meanwhile, the tree-huggers are making sure that the snakes will be put down in a humane method. Humane? You've got to be kidding me. No shooting, no slicing, no snaring, no fun.

My solution is a cheap one. The EPA is worried about lead in the Everglades, so we'll use Black Cloud steel shot just like the Duck Commanders. Forget about air boat rides. Let's get some good ole boys out in the thick of it-- guys who know the terrain. Pay 'em $100 per head-- literally. It's simple Snakeconomics, my friends. It'll create good paying jobs for folks in Florida who desperately need it. We can hedge taxpayers from another huge pork-laden government project AND we get to rid ourselves of these evil alien snakes from Burma!

So, who's with me? I'm taking a Taurus Judge on the job-- specifically the new Public Defender model. I have plans to Duracoat it in WWII green and call it the "Bull Gator"-- paying homage to the Taurus bull and my beloved Florida Gators (the only species actually getting confirmed kills on these snakes). I'll be sure to post up some pics of the project soon.


Have a good one and God bless. -- Evan

If you enjoyed reading about "Florida Pythons: Prepare to be "Judged!"" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
July 21, 2009, 06:15 PM
Can't wait to see the holster with the Python skin trim! :D

July 21, 2009, 06:17 PM
What shot size is best for python?

If they'd spend the ten million on bounty awards, the problem might get cleaned up rather quickly.

July 21, 2009, 06:20 PM
I don't need no stinkin' reason to get a Taurus Judge. I'm going to get one for no reason at all other than it looks cool.

July 21, 2009, 06:36 PM
Florida's highest point is 345 ft. above sea level.

Where are there "hillbillies" in Florida when there aren't any hills?:D

July 21, 2009, 06:37 PM
If I were to specifically hunt for pythons,a Judge may be on my hip but my hands would be on a pump action 20 guage loaded with #2 or #4 shot. Remember while stomping around in the 'glades that the American crocodile has made a strong comeback. I watched an episode of "Monster Quest" where an adult male was found that measured 16-18 feet long. That is maneater size and they have the temperment to go with it.

July 21, 2009, 06:38 PM
Pump, schmump.

I'll take a semi. And a 12. Why not? It's not like you're hiking around in the mountains with the thing.

chris in va
July 21, 2009, 06:38 PM
I'm sure PETA was all over that one.

"Don't hurt the snake, it was just doing what it does naturally!":rolleyes:

July 21, 2009, 06:45 PM
Sign me up, I've got 6 months of vacation a year and I already own all the tools...Can I wear a cool hat and vest like Mick Dundee?

July 21, 2009, 06:47 PM
Man, as it happens, is at the top of the food chain.

Those whose bias inclines them toward letting "Nature" take its course should remember two things: 1) "Nature" didn't put these snakes there, 2) "Nature" put Mankind at the top of the food chain.

"Don't hurt the snake, it was just doing what it does naturally!"

And what is it, precisely, that Mankind just "does naturally?"

Oh, and BTW, how does batter-fried python taste? How about grilled?

July 21, 2009, 06:50 PM
Pythons elude hunters on first night of serpent-stalking in the Everglades


Palm Beach Post Staff Writer

Tuesday, July 21, 2009

The pythons proved an elusive prey.

Rather than a pile of snake carcasses, the first private sanctioned python hunt in Florida that went off Monday night deep in the Everglades produced little more than ideas about how to trap the stealthy reptiles.

Monday night's hunt in western Miami-Dade County came just days after state wildlife officials began doling out licenses to a handful of snake experts in Florida, authorizing them to set out into the Everglades, trap and kill the non-native snakes.

The rush to stop the growing snake population followed news that a pet python had killed a 2-year-old in central Florida.

But Monday's hunt on the L-67 levee north of Tamiami Trail came up empty-handed.

The two hunters, Michael Cole and Robert Conyers, predicted as much setting out.

That the small hunting party would bag, or even spot, a handful of the monstrous snakes was one of the "myths" Conyers dispelled as the group rode along the levee listening to country music in his red Dodge pickup with the faded "Marines" sticker on the back window.

"In ten years, I've seen eight," Conyers said. "We'll be lucky if we find one."

Prince Yamato
July 21, 2009, 07:38 PM
Can you eat python meat? Does it taste like rattlesnake? I ate gourmet rattlesnake cakes at a restaurant once. I'd love to eat python... it's probably meatier...

July 21, 2009, 07:47 PM
it's probably meatier...

Especialy after it just swallowed someones dog........

July 21, 2009, 08:00 PM
I think "man eating" is the wrong term as there has yet to be scientific proof of a snake eating a man. I prefer "man killing" snake.

I do enjoy eating snake (have eaten western diamond back and timber rattlers before). I would love to try burmese python or a boa. Think of the cowboy boots we could make!!! No longer would Shaq have to do without!!! Big girls could finally get short snakeskin skirts!!!

I would totally go big snake hunting just for the thrill of hunting an animal capable of killing me in close quarters. Those things are masters of concealment. I am thinking semi auto or pump 12 gauge though. Maybe a marine mossberg 500 with a turkey choke?

July 21, 2009, 08:02 PM
Oh boy, here we go again. There was a "which gun for Florida pythons?" thread here a few months back. The term "man-eating snakes" as used by the OP is very inaccurate. "Child-eating" would be somewhat more accurate. Even the largest anacondas and pythons in the world cannot physically get their jaws around the widest part of a full-grown adult human - the shoulders. So although a python can kill a man by suffocation or even infection from mouth bacteria if a bite isn't treated, actually "eating" an adult human whole is all but impossible. Children and adolescents are a different story.

Although there have been myths and legends about 40, 50 or even 100-foot long anacondas (which could theoretically be large enough to consume an adult human), these reports have not been scientifically proven.

But, more on topic, from afar, I'd use a 12 gauge with buckshot, and from up close, I'd use a Kershaw Outcast chopping tool as my main defense, with a neck knife and a boot knife as backup. In a tight "squeeze" a cutting/slashing/stabbing tool would be much easier to use than a complicated firearm.

Edit to add: Oops, TheFallGuy just beat me to it!

July 21, 2009, 08:09 PM
"Although there have been myths and legends about 40, 50 or even 100-foot long anacondas (which could theoretically be large enough to consume an adult human), these reports have not been scientifically proven." And this fact in no way disproves it either.

July 21, 2009, 08:13 PM
I've seen 15-20 footers and they give me the Heebie Jeebies... If I ran into a 50 footer I'd run away screaming if I didn't have at least a 12 gauge with 00 buck.

July 21, 2009, 08:30 PM
My parents have a golf course surrounding their cul-de-sac and the owner let it go to hell in the interest of trying to force the local powers that be to let him develop the golf course property in the interest of building homes. Well it has been ten years and the golf course has been unkempt the whole time. There are bears, gators, moccassins, and yes pythons. I went with my mom on a walk across the golf course where the grass wasn't high with her new and her new dog sure to have my Redhawk 4" .44 Magnum under my button up shirt and a snub .357 in each pocket, for bears and two legged predators. While we were walking we saw a seven foot something moving in the tall grass some distance away. It may have been a python, it might not have but I wasn't going to walk in the high grass and risk getting bit by a moccassin as those little bastards lay coiled up in the grass.

I know folks that keep pythons, why I couldn't tell you. But their cages are like steel traps with welds, chicken wire, and rebar and they have never had the snakes break out. One snake breaks out and kills a kid, which happened as the father and mother beat and stabbed the snake when using rubbing alcohol or hot water works far better. A buddy of mine put his seven footer on me to see if I could break my arms free, mind you I bench four hundred pounds and curl 110lb dumbells so this should have been an easy task as the snake wrapped around me. Well it wasn't and my buddy got out the rubbing alcohol and made all my sweaty effort worthless as the snake did everything it could to get off of me and away from the rubbing alcohol.

Like anything in life, you can't fix stupid, and it's the stupid people that ruin it for the rest of us. And yes pythons are tasty when you toss them in a 50 gallon drum full of (after cleaning it) beer that just had a dressed hog marinate for three days and cooked in it, and let the meat sit in it for half an hour on a low fire. The beer was corona and the snake was tasty.

July 21, 2009, 08:39 PM
Hunting and a open season on those snakes would work !

July 21, 2009, 08:41 PM
OregonJonny: (I've seen a fully grown man, 6'6", 210# squeeze himself through a 12" round hole in plywood. He simply "shrugged" his shoulders the right way and put them through one at a time. Any large snake can un-hinge its jaws to accomodate large prey after it's been killed.)
TheFallGuy I think "man eating" is a misnomer. (What do you call a snake that has swallowed a 2-yr old child, whole? Where do you draw that line?)
ArmedBear Where are there "hillbillies" in Florida when there aren't any hills? (Both the pythons and the hillbillies are imported to Florida.)

July 21, 2009, 08:48 PM
If I ran into a 50 footer I'd run away screaming if I didn't have at least a 12 gauge with 00 buck.

Here is a relatively calm domesticated supposed 49 footer that is fed 5 dogs a month:



July 21, 2009, 08:49 PM
The EPA is worried about lead in the Everglades, so we'll use Black Cloud steel shot just like the Duck Commanders.

Black cloud in a .410???

Maybe they can make a 20ga Judge:what::what:........I might even buy one then.:uhoh:

July 21, 2009, 09:00 PM
Here is a relatively calm domesticated supposed 49 footer that is fed 5 dogs a month:


Holy $%@*!!!!!! Might have to call in air support for that bad boy!!!!

July 21, 2009, 09:12 PM
Now only if there was some way to get all of the feral cats to move to Florida.... :D

July 21, 2009, 09:17 PM
To those who asked, and I'm not sure why they needed to ask, but Boa and Python both taste like chicken. (Duh!)


July 21, 2009, 09:18 PM
AB - we have hills here - folks from other states tend to call them "overpasses" though....:)

The pythons are killing the gators - they have no predator to control them, except man. They need to be treated like hogs and coyotes, although a bounty would be decent IF you can control folks so they don't screw up the fragile ecosystem while they're after the snakes

Tim L
July 21, 2009, 09:48 PM
I'm sure PETA was all over that one.

"Don't hurt the snake, it was just doing what it does naturally!"

Actually you'd be surprised. A friend of mine has been working on the Iguana problem on Boca Grande island and PETA has been supportive of the project. Their opinion is that the lizards didn't ask to be here but because they are causing so much environmental damage they need to be removed. Killing is fine as long as the animal doesn't suffer. My friends page: http://www.iguanacookbook.com/

from this article http://www.heraldtribune.com/article/20090223/article/902230343


Published: Monday, February 23, 2009 at 1:00 a.m.
Last Modified: Monday, February 23, 2009 at 6:28 a.m.

There are lizards on Siesta Key -- and we're not talking about bling-laden 50-somethings lounging around the island's nightspots.

What scientists refer to as a reproducing colony of black spiny-tailed iguanas has established itself along Midnight Pass Road south of Siesta Key Beach. Previously, these colonies had only been found in Venice, Englewood and Manasota Key.

The invasion of reptiles -- not just iguanas, but also the more muscular and often nastier monitor lizards and even pythons -- is extending northward based on reported sightings and may be on the verge of a major population explosion, said Meg Lowman, director of environmental initiatives at New College of Florida.

Iguanas are now being reported along the coast as far north as St. Armands Key.

At first, iguanas are pleasing to tourists, who come to Florida partly for the wildlife and enjoy having their pictures taken with these cold-blooded sunbathers, Lowman said. But rapacious iguanas kill or force out native species ranging from gopher tortoises to ground birds, as they did on Gasparilla Island several years ago, and become a tourism negative.

Efforts at population control are ramping up here as they have in Charlotte and Lee counties in recent years. Since late last year, the county's trapper reports killing 150 to 200 iguanas in South County parks.

Widespread reports of iguanas up and down the coast have county officials worried because if the populations are not controlled now, the reptiles could turn into a big expense later. All they have to do is look to the south to see the cost: Charlotte and Lee counties have spent a combined $230,000 for iguana removal since 2007.

Meanwhile, monitor lizards, previously seen only in Englewood, have been spotted in The Landings and along the Interstate 75 corridor, particularly around the Celery Fields just south of Fruitville Road.

You don't have to tell Hera Konstantinou, a Landings resident, about how aggressive monitor lizards can be. A 4-foot-long one was caught in her yard last summer and another one has been reported down the street. The captured monitor nearly broke through the corner of a fenced kennel he was temporarily placed in.

"He was very husky. This guy could easily have taken apart one of my retrievers," Konstantinou said. Monitor lizards can grow to 50 pounds.

There seem to have been an unusual number of "Missing Cat" signs posted in her neighborhood recently, a suspicious Konstantinou confided.

"I got a feeling a couple of these missing cats may have become a snack."

She may be right, since experts say that monitor lizards have been known to eat the occasional cat.

The iguana killer

While county officials are worried about a Gasparilla redux involving iguanas virtually wiping out bird and gopher tortoise populations, trapper George Cera fears the spread of monitor lizards, particularly the alligator-like Nile monitor.

"The Niles are horrible to think about being here," Cera said, noting how quickly the lizard can replace native species. Their taste for gopher tortoises is particularly worrisome, since the health of many other native species relies on the burrowing tortoises, says Cera, credited with killing about 15,000 iguanas on Gasparilla.

Plus, the Nile is a triple threat to capture. "I lost the tip of one of my fingers to a Nile monitor," Cera remembers. "You are dealing with tails, teeth and claws."

Generally speaking, it is unusual for one of these reptiles -- native to Central America, South America, and Africa -- to attack a person, Cera said. However, like alligators, if people feed them, the animals lose their fear of humans and an attack is much more likely.

An early effort to start compiling all the sightings by the public, county employees and New College personnel puts pythons in Oscar Scherer State Park, and iguanas in Myakka State Forest, Nokomis Beach, South Lido Park and the Celery Fields at I-75 and Fruitville Road. Monitor lizards may have established a breeding ground in the Celery Fields, a popular bird-watching area.

In cold blood

Options for controlling the reptile population proposed by New College include monitoring, rapid response, public education, study and a separate research program on pythons, which are seen as an escalating problem. All of these approaches, though, lead to devising ways to more efficiently locate and kill the animals, although county officials avoid using that word.

"When it's over, the animals are no more," said Amy Meese, the county's natural resources general manager, slowly and carefully picking each of the last five words.

The county has met with local animal rights activists and is sensitive to concerns that the reptiles be eliminated humanely, Meese said.

In contrast, New College's Lowman shows no hesitancy to display her opinion on what should be done with these cold-blooded animals.

"Stop studying them and start killing them!" was the quote Lowman used from a fellow academic in a column she wrote last year.

It's a simple choice to Lowman: Either get rid of these invasive reptiles or be prepared to witness the disappearance of an of an array of native species.

While squeamish about all the killing, animal rights groups appreciate that choice and are not criticizing local governments so long as the reptiles are killed humanely.

"It's just such a frustrating situation for everyone involved," said Tori Perry, senior cruelty case worker for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, or PETA.

The shame of the situation is that these animals did not choose to come to a place they are not wanted, she said. Most were released by pet owners who purchased them on impulse.

With no natural predators, the reptiles can take over Florida's ecosystems because they are "the biggest, baddest thing out there" and they've come to an area rich with food, she said.

"Getting loose in Sarasota County was kind of like candy for these guys," Perry said.

July 21, 2009, 09:54 PM
From the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commision website.

July 16, 2009

A program to begin addressing the invasion of Burmese pythons in the Everglades begins on Friday, July 17. The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission (FWC) initiated a permit program that will allow herpetology experts to go into state-managed lands in South Florida and search for and euthanize Burmese pythons and other Reptiles of Concern.

FWC staff screened the participants in this initial program. All permit holders are required to provide the FWC with GPS locations of each captured python and to take a digital photo. The FWC will then study the data, which will include location, size and stomach contents, to help further understand the spread of this nonnative species. Armed with data, the FWC can share valuable information with the U.S. Geological Survey and Everglades National Park, which are investigating the behavior and biology of the Burmese python for a better understanding of the snake's requirements for survival. This knowledge can help eradicate the Burmese python from Florida.

"One Burmese python is too many," said Scott Hardin, the FWC's Exotic Species Section leader. "We hope this program is the basis for a larger, expanded program that will aid us in preventing the spread of this species."

The permits for the first phase of this program go from July 17 to Oct. 31. The FWC will then evaluate expanding the program.

"This is a good way to collect information critical to finding the best way to eradicate this harmful snake," said Nick Wiley, the FWC's assistant executive director. "This is a strategic and responsible approach to begin solving the problem of pythons in Florida."

July 21, 2009, 09:58 PM
Also from the FWC website.

Approximately 112,000 of these Asian snakes have been imported into the United States since 1990.

Everglades National Park has been the site of suspected releases of these exotic pets, with population predictions in the tens of thousands. The National Park Service reported the removal of 311 Burmese pythons from the Everglades in 2008.

Other pythons have been captured in Big Cypress National Preserve and Collier Seminole State Park, north of the Everglades; areas around Miami to the northeast; Key Largo to the southeast and other lands, both public and private, throughout the region.

A recent report from the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) shows that the Burmese python could survive throughout Florida. The report states that other factors, such as food and shelter, need consideration, but the "Burmese pythons and other giant constrictor snakes have shown themselves to be highly adaptable to new environments."

A non-venomous constrictor, the Burmese python preys on native Florida species of mammals, birds and reptiles, as well as nonnative species including black rats.

According to the National Park Service, the appetite of the Burmese python poses a serious threat to some of Florida's already endangered species. Burmese pythons have eaten Key Largo woodrats, a federally endangered species.

The Burmese python may reach a length of 26 feet and a weight of more than 200 pounds. The largest Burmese python captured in the Everglades was 16 feet and 150 pounds. Its native habitat ranges from India to lower China, throughout the Malay Peninsula and on some islands in the East Indies. It usually lives near water.

Although semi-aquatic, this snake is a good climber.

Pythons lay eggs, unlike boa constrictors. A female Burmese python may lay 50-100 eggs and will wrap its body around the clutch to keep it warm and to defend the eggs against predators. The female python can raise its temperature by rhythmically twitching muscles, which generates heat and helps incubate the eggs. This incubation process may last two to three months. Once the eggs are hatched, young pythons are on their own to survive.

The USGS and the Everglades National Park are investigating the behavior and biology of the Burmese python to get a better understanding of the snake's requirements for survival. Their findings also will assess the risk of invasion into other areas of the United States.

July 21, 2009, 10:05 PM
If I ran into a 50 footer I'd run away screaming if I didn't have at least a 12 gauge with 00 buck.

And even if I did!:what:

July 21, 2009, 10:55 PM
You mean that "my go-to favorite gun for bears" thread will be replaced with "what do I use for pythons"? I guess it will be a change of pace, though I doubt I'll see one in Wi. Of course, with all the global warming, who knows.

Guns and more
July 21, 2009, 11:01 PM
Well you could use a Colt "Python", but I suspect the Judge will "rule".

July 21, 2009, 11:31 PM
It's in the SAS survival handbook how to cook them, it says steaks,

July 22, 2009, 12:27 AM
:Dno such thing as a man eating snake... fyi... maybe a child eating snake.. but no record of a snake ever eating a person... tests have been done... opportunities have been had... they cannot get past the shoulders....:what:

yes... they unhinge their jaws to accomodate larger prey, but there are limits to the size of what it can accomodate... scientific studies have shown the only way a snake could swallow a full grown MAN would be for it to #1 be a big ass snake....check and #2, turn the gun up on one shoulder to take the shoulders on end (one shoulder to top jaw and the other to the bottom jaw), seeing as they cannot do this (no hands) and no snake practices turning its head sideways to swallow its prey... no known snake (even the 50 footer) has the ability to stretch its mouth far enough to swallow a MAN in the fashion in which snakes swallow their prey.

July 22, 2009, 12:59 AM
I was watching Monster Quest and they are predicting they'll spread over the lower third of the U.S. given a reasonable amount of time.

Luckily my chupacabra gun should pull double duty on any pythons or boa:D X

July 22, 2009, 01:31 AM
i think its going to be quite difficult to find them hiding out in the swamps

July 22, 2009, 01:36 AM
I was watching Monster Quest and they are predicting they'll spread over the lower third of the U.S. given a reasonable amount of time.
I've kept and bred snakes including large constrictors for a number of years and it seems unlikely to me that they'll go much further north than they already have.

US Fish and Wildlife claimed that the Burmese python would spread that far north based on their natural range across Asia, which goes as far north as southern China and northern India, ignoring the fact that all the animals that were ever imported for the pet trade were collected much nearer the equator and do not have the cold tolerance of their cousins to the north. One good freeze kills them, and although that's rare in Georgia and Alabama it happens often enough to stop their progress. Couple that with most people's visceral reaction to huge snakes and I'm fairly confident that they can be stopped in their tracks, so to speak. After a few millennia of evolution and adaptation they may be able to take the cold, but no one reading this today will be affected.

Aim for the head, the heart and lung (most have only one) on a snake are far smaller than a mammal of equal weight and their slower heart rate and metabolism mean that they will bleed out very slowly.

July 22, 2009, 01:44 AM
They issued FIVE permits--To experienced herpetologists. only! Hardly "doling them out."

Also a really BIG snake can BREAK and dislocate your shoulders. I will NOT be surprised when we start hearing about man eating snakes in Florida, documented man eating snakes.

Florida should institute a bounty TODAY. We've PROVED over and over again that overhunting can eradicate a species, why not try and eradicate this invasive species before its too late?

July 22, 2009, 07:48 AM
Man, as it happens, is at the top of the food chain

Not in the Everglades.

July 22, 2009, 09:01 AM
Don't forget the machete. It's the only way to go in for close hand to hand combat with snakes. Wait, would it be called "hand to hand"?


Anyways, the fear of snakes seems a little silly to me.
I have a pet python, but of course he's domesticated. He turned 12 in April.
But I have kept and handled several wild snakes over the years.
They are pretty pathetic without hands, feet, or brains.
Pythons and boas have a relatively slow strike and can be dodged when you see it coming.

July 22, 2009, 09:12 AM
Where are there "hillbillies" in Florida when there aren't any hills

How about Swampbillies?

July 22, 2009, 10:40 AM
Dravur After all the yuppie white collar typies that had the snakesand let them go or lost them during hurricans it will take the (swampbillies ) as you call them to kill them off . Ain't many city boys going to walk around the swamps look'n now are YOU. Darn *****. The park service needs to give a open bounty on them and allow free access to the glades and cypress/hardwood hammock area's again or they will never be under control.

Fish Miner
July 22, 2009, 11:03 AM
Show me where you CAN'T go in the Glades? About the only place I know is the reservations....I think most of you need to take a trip there before you recommend what gun to use. in Big Cypress and Fakahatchee you could use a long gun in only a few places but in the hammocks pistol only- there just so tight with plants you would be using it as a walking stick more then anything. And down on the coast 10,000 Islands part of the park- there ain't anywhere to walk! Pure Mangrove forests surrounded by water. And let me tell you all who think you come down here to hunt snakes in the glades- you won;t last 30 min with the summer skeeters-

When the CCW's are allowed to carry in the parks again then you might get a few more snakes shot, but hunting is going to be a stretch. I think more hog hunters will kill them then snake hunters....

my .02 as a everglades fan- I have going there for a long time and have covered a lot of ground/water and I have not even scratched the surface. Big place for sure....

Jeff White
July 22, 2009, 01:39 PM
This is an interesting thread, too bad it's only remotely gun related...

If you enjoyed reading about "Florida Pythons: Prepare to be "Judged!"" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!