Japanese Arisaka Rifle


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ShooterRuger
July 22, 2009, 04:51 PM
Im trying to get information on this gun, it has alot of things pressed into it. it does not however have the flower pressed into it....it has been scraped off and it seems to be modified any help or hints would be nice.

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HoosierQ
July 22, 2009, 04:59 PM
You'll need to provide pics.

The Mum being scraped off means it was "surrendered" rather than "captured". I'd say your Arisaka was made in Japan...beyond that...

With pics, our members here will be able to tell you quite a lot probably.

rocky branch
July 22, 2009, 06:16 PM
There's a lot to know before anybody can ID your piece.

Pica would go a long way.

The Chyrysanthimum or emperial symbol was removed for many reasons at various times.
No real definitive answer towards captured or surrendered is correct.
I have seen rifles taken in the field that were ground at the unit level.
The vast majority brought home were ground.
These things have taken on a lot more interest n the last few years after being considered worthless for a long time.

The markings on the left of the reciever will tell a lot.

Ron James
July 22, 2009, 06:58 PM
That's right, Why, I was told that the Japanese soldier carried a small battery powered grinder in their pack. If they thought they were going to be killed of captured they would grind off the " Mum " so as not disgrace the Emperor. ( tongue in cheek )

ShooterRuger
July 22, 2009, 07:11 PM
im sure it has been modified cause it looks nothing like the types i saw..but there is still the arsenal mark where it is made and it has japenese writing on it and the serial number is there with 2 circles before serial number.

101977

101978

101979

101980

Alpacca 45
July 22, 2009, 07:27 PM
Some idiot has butchered it, bolt handle has been turned (cut and weld or bent) down and stock has been changed or butchered for a "sporter" stock

ShooterRuger
July 22, 2009, 07:32 PM
thats what i figured o well the stuff that the leaved on it is ok atleast all the arsenal makes and serial numbers and japenese writing is still on there. any way to still be able to tell what type it is though

musick
July 22, 2009, 08:44 PM
I didnt even know what I had, but thanks to some help from a few posters on surplusrifle forum, I was given this link:

http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html

Found out I have an Arisaka Type 38 w/ the original bayo. and sling. It appears to be a battlefield pick-up since the Mum is 100% intact. The only thing I am missing is the receiver dust cover.

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g16/heathenbrewing/IMG_3030.jpg

musick
July 22, 2009, 08:49 PM
thats what i figured o well the stuff that the leaved on it is ok atleast all the arsenal makes and serial numbers and japenese writing is still on there. any way to still be able to tell what type it is though

I am no expert on these firearms by any stretch of the imagination, but I dont think you have a Type 38. Might be a Type 99. This link might be useful as well:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/arisaka/index.asp

ShooterRuger
July 22, 2009, 09:00 PM
its just so modified that i cannot tell what type...it still has serial number and the symbol that tells you were it was made but i dont know what the japenese writing says...hmmm what should i do...they say that alot of arisaka that were modified were done by actual U.S. soldiers..o well still got my beyond perfect condition british infield and i love jsut looking at it ha

musick
July 22, 2009, 09:03 PM
ShooterRuger - Here are some pics of what an unmolested Type 38 looks like:

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g16/heathenbrewing/IMG_3029.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g16/heathenbrewing/IMG_3036.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g16/heathenbrewing/IMG_3037.jpg

http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g16/heathenbrewing/IMG_3038.jpg

ShooterRuger
July 22, 2009, 09:14 PM
that is so sweet...that symbol on your bayonet is the same symbol next to my serial number and then before it there is two circles

ShooterRuger
July 22, 2009, 09:15 PM
o well it was a free gun ..and you cant beat free no matter how bad the gun looks

musick
July 22, 2009, 09:25 PM
that is so sweet...that symbol on your bayonet is the same symbol next to my serial number and then before it there is two circles


Then the manufacturer was either Koishikawa Arsenal (Tokyo) 1870-1935 or Kokura Arsenal 1935-1945.

Cheers!

ShooterRuger
July 22, 2009, 09:32 PM
i also heard that those two circles next to the serial number also means that it may have been used at a school or for the secret police or something like that im not to sure..can i buy and original stock or should i just leave it be...i also dont know what the japanese writing means they arnt on the list for series numbers its engraved below were the flower thing should be

musick
July 22, 2009, 09:49 PM
i also heard that those two circles next to the serial number also means that it may have been used at a school or for the secret police or something like that im not to sure..can i buy and original stock or should i just leave it be...i also dont know what the japanese writing means they arnt on the list for series numbers its engraved below were the flower thing should be

That first link I posted didnt answer those questions?

Like I said, Im no expert. If the metal has been modified, it probably wont help the value if you have the original stock.

Jim K
July 22, 2009, 11:09 PM
An easy way to tell the Type 38 from the type 99 is that the receiver ring markings on the Type 38 run in line with the barrel, while the Type 99 markings run crossways. Also the Type 38 has two gas escape holes, the Type 99 only one.

Musick says he has a Type 38 but the picture clearly shows a Type 99 or, as the marking says, "99 Type".

The symbols beside the serial number are the manufacturer's marking and the series symbol using the kata kana "letter." This is similar to the practice of other countries in using a letter prefix, such as "A 1234" or "F98556".

Jim

jimmyraythomason
July 22, 2009, 11:21 PM
As a general rule:The type 38 is the model of 1905 and is in 6.5 caliber. The type 99 is the model of 1938 and is in 7.7 caliber. Your rifle isn't ruined, it has just taken on a new roll.

ShooterRuger
July 23, 2009, 12:07 AM
okay then it is a type 38 it has the gas escape holes

KenWP
July 23, 2009, 01:06 AM
Convert it to 45-70 and go shoot it.

musick
July 23, 2009, 12:19 PM
An easy way to tell the Type 38 from the type 99 is that the receiver ring markings on the Type 38 run in line with the barrel, while the Type 99 markings run crossways. Also the Type 38 has two gas escape holes, the Type 99 only one.

Musick says he has a Type 38 but the picture clearly shows a Type 99 or, as the marking says, "99 Type".


DOH!

I guess that old saying is true re: good information - you get what you pay for! :p

Is that the character on top of the receiver that says 99?

Maybe, MAYBE one day I will be able to finally ID this rifle.:D

jimmyraythomason
July 24, 2009, 01:06 AM
With all due respect to THR,this is not the best place for detailed mil-surp questions. The mi-surp experts dwell here:<http://www.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=80981>. You may have to join to access the forums.

Jim K
July 25, 2009, 11:37 PM
The symbol that looks a bit like someone kneeling on one knee is a "9". So there are two 9's ("99") and the ideogram for "Type" or "Model", hence "99 [year] Type" or "Type 99."

Note that the year designations use different systems. The Type 38 was adopted in the 38th year of the Meiji Era, which began in 1868, so the 38th year was 1906; the rifle was adopted in May, 1906. But by the time the Type 99 was adopted, the Japanese had dropped that dating system and used a date starting with the supposed foundation of the empire. By that system, 2599 was our 1939, so the Type 99 was adopted in 1939 (and the famous Japanese fighter was taken into service in 2500 (1940) as the Type Zero).

(I hope that is not too detailed for this site.)

Jim

Ron James
July 25, 2009, 11:47 PM
:) You didn't post anything about the battery powered backpack grinders?? :)

jimmyraythomason
July 27, 2009, 10:05 AM
Jim Keenan; your post is an exception to the norm concerning mil-surps. I trust you will agree that mil-surps aren't given the same "attention" on THR as on a mil-surp specific forum.

alsaqr
July 27, 2009, 10:59 AM
After WWII the US had hundreds of thousands of captured Type 99 Japanese rifles on hand. Many of these Type 99 rifles were re-chambered for .30-06 and issued to South Korean troops. Most of these were refinished with a phosphate coating, the monopod was removed and a few have the mum intact: I own one.


http://www.pmulcahy.com/battle_rifles/japanese_battle_rifles.htm


The newly-formed Republic of Korea was given some 127,000 Short Rifles and 6700 Long Rifles after World War 2, in order to equip their police forces and to a small extent military forces. These versions of the Type 99 were re-chambered for .30-06 Springfield, with appropriate changes in the magazine and sights, and also had slots cut in the top to allow for the use of the ammunition’s stripper clips. Normally, the monopod was also deleted. Japanese markings were also removed, and the metalwork was re-finished in gray phosphate. These weapons served in surprising numbers in South Korean hands in the Korean War, but most were junked or placed in museums or private collections after the Korean War.

The Thai military also received thousands of Short Rifles after World War 2; these were also re-chambered for .30-06 Springfield ammunition. They are the same as the modified Korean Type 99 Short Rifles for game purposes, but bear markings in Sanskrit and the Chakra symbol of the Thai military forces, as well as Japanese markings. Their fates were also similar to their Korean counterparts.

Jim K
July 27, 2009, 05:44 PM
I have always wondered how well those converted rifles shot as the .30 bullet is a bit small for the 7.7mm bore (.308" vs. .311"). I understand those rifles were issued to police and "militia"; pics of ROK front line forces show them with M1 rifles and carbines.

Jim

alsaqr
July 27, 2009, 11:31 PM
I understand those rifles were issued to police and "militia"; pics of ROK front line forces show them with M1 rifles and carbines.

My gun and several others were obtained by me from the ROK police in 1963. All were in beautiful condition. I also had another Arisaka that I obtained from the ROK police: I recently gave it to my son. That gun was not re-chambered and the mum is intact.

I was an EOD guy and we got lots of Japanese 7.7mm ammo in 30 round strips to destroy. Thought that that gun kicked a little hard with that ammo. Then I found out that the ammo in strips was some very powerful stuff that was to be used only in the Hotchkiss type machine gun: Proofed the gun every time I fired it.


Some of the rifles that were re-chambered to .30-06 are very accurate, including mine. Others did not shoot well at all. The 7.7mm is larger than the 06 in the base by about .002. The body of the 06 cartridge swells slightly when it is fired in the chamber of most Type 99 guns. In some guns the swell is quite noticeable.

Birdmang
July 27, 2009, 11:34 PM
I have an Arisaka with a bayonet and monopod, it is not the carbine. It has the mum and all the other marking still on it...pretty good condition as well. Anyone want to help me with a value?

aerod1
July 28, 2009, 12:31 PM
I have an early Type 99 Arisaka made at the Kokura plant. It has the Mum intact and anti aircraft sights still intact.
Here is a wonderful site for us Arisaka lovers:
http://www.castle-thunder.com/

Jim K
July 28, 2009, 01:01 PM
I am surprised that the 7.7 ammo in feed strips worked in a rifle, as it is semi-rimmed.

The Japanese issued three kinds of 7.7 ammo - rimless for use in the Type 99 rifle; semi-rimmed for use in the Hotchkiss type MG, and rimmed for the Imperial Navy's license built Lewis guns. The latter were used on ships, as flexible guns on aircraft, and as land guns with Navy landing parties (sometimes called "Jap Marines" by Americans, but the Japanese had no marines as such). The 7.7 rimmed is identical to and will interchange with, the .303 British.

Jim

alsaqr
July 29, 2009, 10:01 AM
Actually the semi-rimmed ammo fed really well through my gun.

During that tour in Korea I met an Army NCO named Sun. SFC Sun was a Niesi who had the unfortunate to be visiting Japan with his Mom when the war broke out. Sun was drafted into the Japanese army and fought in the Pacific in WWII. After the war was over Sun came back to the US and joined the Army.

I talked about my Type 99 rifle and Sun wanted to fire it. Sun was surprised that I had been shooting the semi-rimmed machinegun ammo in that gun. In the unit we had nearly every type of rifle, pistol and machinegun used by the Japanese in WWII. Suns eyes lit up when he saw our collection. I learned a lot about those guns from SFC Sun.

redrocco16v
August 9, 2009, 07:31 PM
By your description your rifle has the exact same markings as mine. Below the mum your rifle probly has a extra mark above the 38type marking. It is the school mark. this is not a training rifle if it still has the rifling in the the bore but was used at some school. that also explains the 0 0 in front of the serial. that mine also has. Check out this link for all the Symbol meanings. http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/japanese_markings.html
Have not shot mine yet. it came from my grandfather and cannot tell you the exact history he passed 7 years before I was born. Mine also apears to have original sling and bayonet.

Mikedeprinter
August 10, 2009, 10:47 AM
I have a question for the japanese arms experts. I was given a jap carbine from a close friend. He was a WWII vet and got the rifle while in the Pacific as a Marine. While getting back on the troop transfer ship, he said all the guys were given captured jap rifles. He was given a very long rifle and complained it was too big and asked for one of the "short ones". He was given a very short carbine and they filled out the G.I. capture papers. My friends son past away a few years ago so he didn't have anyone to pass the rifle on to. He gave it to me. I am looking for a book to learn more about the carbine. Any suggestions? A buddy who knows more about them than I, said it was a 'last ditch" though he said he's never seen one like it. Any ideas?

TEDDY
August 10, 2009, 09:02 PM
if you have ever seen a last ditch you would never forget it.I had two and a parade gun.these guns are not last ditch they are substitute standard.
just like the 1903 and substitute standard 1903A4.last ditch bolt locks into the barrel and the reciever is cast.
the MG ammo wont go in my guns and I have 5of 7.7 and 1000 rds of hotchkiss ammo.I do shoot it but I have a bolt opened to take it.the bullet is heavy 206 gr if I remember.so it kicks. the 6.5 is about 1/4 inch .264 and the 7.7 is about 5/16 or .311.you can look at the muzzle and tell.:rolleyes::uhoh:

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