Best personal defense house gun you've owned


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kw11b2p
July 22, 2009, 11:45 PM
Just curious to know what the best personal defense gun you've owned for your home is and why. Thanks.

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Avenger29
July 23, 2009, 12:18 AM
AR-15 in .223.

Light, easy to use, reliable, usable by whole family (collapsible stock), quick and easy to load and unload, low recoil, rounds give a good balance of performance vs. penetration, easy attachment for an Aimpoint red dot sight and and a good light.

BushyGuy
July 23, 2009, 12:21 AM
My Bushmaster with 11.5" hbar and a 5.5"flash suppressor. its my main Home Defense Gun against Gangbangers and home Invaders.

Avenger29
July 23, 2009, 12:32 AM
For a "money is no object" HD weapon, I'd get a short Noveske with a suppressor...that would be great.

Deckard
July 23, 2009, 12:33 AM
Remington 870 synthetic 7-round. Doesn't see much use...hardly any in fact, but it stays where I can reach it and it'll work as advertised.

christcorp
July 23, 2009, 12:35 AM
Home defense? Sorry, but even with all the different type of guns I have, nothing beats a 12 gauge shotgun. In my case; Remington 870 Magnum. Whether I load it with #4 buck or #00 buck, I know it will do to it's victim something that NO OTHER GUN CAN DO. And I don't think there's really too many that will argue that getting hit with buckshot at 30-50 feet max, isn't a very effective round. Probable the most effective known to mankind currently.

Marlin 45 carbine
July 23, 2009, 12:35 AM
for handgun my BDA. long gun my Marlin Camp 9 w/20 rd mag.

Pack
July 23, 2009, 12:37 AM
I used to keep my converted (a la Tromix) Saiga 12 gauge with a folding stock and a 10rd magazine inserted by the bed. The reasons being the ease of use (it points more naturally for me than the Benelli it replaced) and the firepower. Reliability is likewise unquestioned. Also - because of the Kalashnikov gas system, I believe - it's the lightest-kicking 12 GA I've fired. So much so that I thought, in a pinch, the wife could put it to use with reasonable effect.

Then I bought my first revolver. That, coupled with the fact that we're having our first child in a few months, means that I've gotten in the habit of feeling perfectly safe with a 6" S&W 686, loaded and with a couple more speedloaders at the ready, in a small safe on the floor right next to the bed. It, likewise, points very naturally. There's certainly less power than the shotgun, but I don't feel undergunned when it's kept loaded with the nasty 158gr Federal JHP load. Reliability, again, is a non-issue.

The next project is to finally make the time to get the wife some more training with what will be her "house gun" when I'm away - the Beretta CX4 Storm carbine in 45 ACP. Hell, I like it enough so far that we may just adopt it as the primary house gun. I'm also thinking of hunting down a Cougar in 45ACP for CCW.

Anyway, that's what we've got and the thinking behind it. I'm certainly no expert. The only rule I go by is - if you noticed - what points (for me) the most naturally. I sleep like a bear, and am hell to get up - I tend to need a couple of minutes to be totally with it. I'm sure I'd be "with it" much quicker in a crisis situation - maybe not, though. Either way, I like having close at hand the tools that I'm most familiar/comfortable with. I'm much more confident that, in the mental fuzz of being rapidly awakened to deal with a home invasion, I'll be better off with these guns as opposed to one of the tacticooled-out ARs that sit in the safe.

kanewpadle
July 23, 2009, 12:38 AM
Winchester 1300 12 Guage. Low recoil 00 buck and slugs.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 23, 2009, 12:39 AM
Couldn't say; never had to shoot someone.

Birdmang
July 23, 2009, 12:40 AM
Just what I was thinking!^

Oro
July 23, 2009, 12:49 AM
Couldn't say; never had to shoot someone.

That was my first thought, too. But to try to be helpful to the OP:

Any full size 1911. Gives me the greatest comfort - it is the gun most familiar in my hand, and the gun I need to think least about when handling as it's all natural and second nature.

So my point is to choose a gun you are very comfortable with - you need your faculties for other things.

kw11b2p
July 23, 2009, 12:50 AM
I guess what I meant was..........the gun that you had complete confidence in as far as accuracy, feeding, manipulation, misfires, etc.. I am surprised to see so many favorites being guns that fit into what I consider (and it's a personal consideration) the rifle category. I have always considered (and again it's a matter of personal preference) a sidearm that is easily manipulated with a high round capacity and causing limited collateral damage to be an advantage.....but that is why I love this site, all viewpoints.

WTBguns10kOK
July 23, 2009, 12:51 AM
has been, is and always will be a shotgun...there is no kind of "vs. anything", handguns and silly AR's aren't as good

ByAnyMeans
July 23, 2009, 12:54 AM
Winchester 1300 "Speed Pump" seven shot 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck and a butt stock saddle full of extra rounds.

kanewpadle
July 23, 2009, 12:59 AM
Winchester 1300 "Speed Pump" seven shot 12 gauge loaded with 00 buck and a butt stock saddle full of extra rounds.
Love that "speed pump". I can empty mine fast. And accurate too.

shilo
July 23, 2009, 01:03 AM
A Glock 24 with streamlight. and a Five-seven w/30 rnd mag next to it. Ol lady gots a 7 shot 357 and a 870 12 gauge 18" barrel. And a Colt Delta elite 10mm. And a Ruger blackhawk .45LC. Thats all on our bed frame thing.

Birdmang
July 23, 2009, 01:05 AM
Do you each have three hands?

shilo
July 23, 2009, 01:12 AM
I wish.

On her side of the bed is just the 357 and the 12er. The other 4 are on my side. Its mainly just a good spot to keep them. I dont mind. But it could come in handy for some reason to have extras. Theres never kids or strangers in our place, so theres actually guns littered all over the place

Sun195
July 23, 2009, 01:15 AM
Hard to define "best" - I normally have a revolver ready & feel comfortable relying on that. However, I'm not really expecting any kind of "full assault" on my house, so....

ccsniper
July 23, 2009, 01:21 AM
my go to gun for home defense, is a star bm on the head board of my bead. the gun cost me 200 total, and has never jammed.

Avenger29
July 23, 2009, 02:04 AM
as been, is and always will be a shotgun...there is no kind of "vs. anything", handguns and silly AR's aren't as good

I happen to believe the AR is a superior HD longarm, especially for those of us who are intolerant of recoil or have many different family members that must be able to use the primary longarm.

Plus, I really really like the fact that I am able to load and unload it in two motions- insert or eject the magazine and run the bolt, it's ready to go. Very simple manual of arms, and we store them at the house with a loaded mag inserted, empty chamber, hammer down. Ready to rock.

PT1911
July 23, 2009, 02:09 AM
I am with the shotgun crowd.. AR good choice.. 1911 good choice... 30-30 lever gun... intersting choice but still a good one, but I will always reach for a shotgun first when given the chance.

Deckard
July 23, 2009, 02:19 AM
I happen to believe the AR is a superior HD longarm, While an AR is nothing to frown at a pump shotgun will always be the center piece of home defense. For the price, reliability, and power it can't be beat. My 870 cost me $300 and I feel as confident and secure as one could reasonably expect.

RP88
July 23, 2009, 02:28 AM
the Mossberg 500, because...it works, it's reliable, it's powerful, it's able to be used with relative ease (recoil exlcuded), and because the last thing I want is the police to take my AR-15 to 'hold for investigatory purposes up until the end of the investigation', than have it go 'missing'; if that happens to the Mossberg, it's only a $200 replacement.

Dr.Rob
July 23, 2009, 02:46 AM
You know folks on here have used everything from a single shot .410 to an Uzi. Fact is, there's no 'best' answer for every situation, though few would recommend a bolt action rifle or muzzle loader.

But it really depends on where your house is, and what you have available at that moment doesn't it?

A 12 ga pump shotgun is rarely a BAD choice, and one of the least restricted defensive arms available.

scottaschultz
July 23, 2009, 03:11 AM
Home defense? Sorry, but even with all the different type of guns I have, nothing beats a 12 gauge shotgun.Nothing? I have a Continental 10ga double barrel shotgun that makes geese fall out of the sky during hunting season. You know when you have fired a 10ga!

Scott

hoppo
July 23, 2009, 03:33 AM
havent shot anyone yet. but killed a lot pigs.
all chest shots, 223 55 gn soft blow up outside, fmj overpenetration, helps em run
9mm, 375 mag,45 acp doesnt even slow them much , get a lot over penetration
44 mag hp stone dead bits missing , but overpenetration
shotgun sg knocks em over tumble, bleed out into chest cavety, no exit if over ten mtr
number 4 skins them, pissed off and they chase you, find a tree
solid over penetration. lot of lung damage, but can still run hundred yards

stevemis
July 23, 2009, 03:43 AM
I started with an 870 with a 28" barrel, because it was a gift and I couldn't come up with anything else to do with it. The crossbolt safety always confused my little brain. It and I couldn't fit down the long hallway leading from the bedrooms into the rest of the house. Didn't work out.

Replaced it with a couple of Mossberg 500's in the Persuader configuration. Still waiting for the Mossberg "How to Make Friends and Influence People" version ... this'll do till then..:)

Jed Carter
July 23, 2009, 05:01 AM
Whether it's the best or not, my primary HD weapon is a SIG P226 in .40S&W with Tritium night sights. In the relative narrow passages in my home it handles better than a long gun. Holds 16 + reloads...

azhunter122
July 23, 2009, 05:26 AM
Mossberg 12 gauge and a Glock 22.

Igloodude
July 23, 2009, 05:57 AM
S&W Model 625 revolver, in .45ACP. More reliable than any semi-auto pistol, operation is virtually stress-proof (no safeties to manipulate, if a round doesn't go off just pull the trigger again), and with no adjustments it shoots any sort of round I care to put in it (mindful of un-neighborly overpenetration the cylinder is full of low-velocity target rounds). And for me and my wife, it's easier to train with - we go to pistol ranges all the time anyway that for the most part don't allow long guns.

I would agree that shotguns tend to be generally better for the function overall, but I'm satisfied with what I have.

NG VI
July 23, 2009, 06:05 AM
causing limited collateral damage

Personally if I ever have to shoot another human I hope to God the weapon I am using is a Mk. 19 with frag grenades. I don't want to "win" the fight and still be killed by a dying attacker, or worse have one of my family members killed in the same way. Clearly I don't want to shoot a grenade machine gun in my house, but I do want to have a weapon that can cause as much damage as possible while still meeting all the other requirements for a home defense weapon.


At my house it is a CMMG AR-15, 16" carbine, the collapsible stock gives it an incredibly compact package for a rifle, the red dot sight is as easy to use as anyone can ask for, the 30 round magazine downloaded to 25 will last through any realistic situation, and if its an unrealistic situation, another 25 rounds is sitting next to the rifle. It has never malfunctioned, but I don't want to be a victim of Murphy's Law, and almost every common malfunction of an AR can be easily cleared by removing the magazine and vigorously workig the bolt once or twice before reloading. 68 grain Remington JHP bullets at 2800 feet per second (Georgia Arms numbers, I haven't measured) will work fine for bipedal attackers.

jackstinson
July 23, 2009, 07:26 AM
Lahti L-39 20mm

MHBushmaster
July 23, 2009, 09:25 AM
Folks,
Shotguns with proper defensive ammo (slugs or 00, 000, or #1 Buchshot) over-penetrate more than an AR15 loaded with defensive ammo.

It is a ballistic fact. There are no disputes with the science.
Alot of people use shotguns cause they "feel" that a shotgun is the most devastating weapon for home defense.
It is just not true ballistically speaking.

9 leads .33"diameter balls that travel at 1,300 fps is not providing the home defender with some "nuclear option" that is akin to some untouchable awesomeness that is unsurpassed... Compare a typical 00 buck payload to the terminal ballistics of a 75gr .224" diameter spitzer bullet traveling at over 2,600 fps (in my hand-loads).

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/MiscDocuments/SAMMI_pressure_Hornady_75_gel_shot_from_16_inch_barrel.jpg

or
http://papercut.mercenariesguild.net/Wound/buckshot_00_tac_remington_b.jpg

Both will ruin a bad guys day,,,however one has less recoil, faster follow up shots, carries more ammo, has infinitely faster reloads, and has less over penetration characteristics....Answer: 75gr BTHP loaded to 5.56 specs in a semi-auto rifle.

Shotguns are cheaper, however, if things get so bad that you have to use a long arm to defend your life/family/home then why use a "cheap" option? You are fighting for the ultimate prize: your life/family members lives. Don't use a cheap tool?!

Would you feel great about a Surgeon using the cheapest MRI machine or cheapest medical equipment when you are undergoing lifesaving surgery to save some money?
Would you want someone to build your seat belts and airbags with the cheapest materials just to save a buck?

Don't misinterpret me and think that by using the most expensive tool that it will automatically dictate the best outcome...everything is based on the nut behind the butt of the gun to determine the outcome. Practice and learn as much as you can. Making life changing decisions based on your feelings or by just parroting stuff that you've heard from others is a poor way to prepare yourself for a life changing event where your life is on the line.

"You don't leap forwards to doing difficult things in an emergency, you fall back to your training to see you through the crisis".

To those that choose a low capacity firearm for home defense, you are statistically correct, you will most likely never need to fire your gun multiple times at multiple bad guys (if ever),,,however, you don't need to look far back in the current news to see more than one instance where MULTIPLE ARMED ATTACKERS have laid siege to people in their residences.
In those instances, I'd hate to have a 6 shot revolver and have run it 6x so that I've got an empty gun while staring at the 7th bad guy...It is not about the chances or odds of getting into armed confrontation, its about what is at stake when trying to survive an armed confrontation.
:)

chuckusaret
July 23, 2009, 09:26 AM
Shotguns with proper defensive ammo (slugs or Buchshot) over-penetrate more than an AR15 loaded with defensive ammo.
I don't believe my wife needs a overpriced semi automatic weapon such as AR15 for HD. The training required for her to become proficient in its use makes it an impractical HD weapon. She is far better off with a shotgun and her .380.

IMO the best HD weapon is a cheap 12 ga Mossberg. The HD weapon should be a easy to use, cheap, relieable, expendable weapon. The weapon will be taken, if used, for the investigation and in most cases not returned until the case is closed. This could take years.

Igloodude
July 23, 2009, 09:34 AM
To those that choose a low capacity firearm for home defense, you are statistically correct, you will most likely never need to fire your gun multiple times at multiple bad guys (if ever),,,however, you don't need to look far back in the current news to see more than one instance where MULTIPLE ARMED ATTACKERS have laid siege to people in their residences.
In those instances, I'd had to have a 6 shot revolver and have an empty gun while staring at the 7th bad guy...It is not about the chances or odds of getting into armed confrontation, its about what is at stake when trying to survive an armed confrontation.

An empty gun... and two moonclips full of 6 more rounds each (with loads that are less gentle), which if you've ever seen Jerry Miculek you know can be loaded fairly quickly.

Statistically, the odds of my home being broken into while I'm at home are fairly slim. So, I've got an adequate method of dealing with that circumstance that is appropriate to the risk. The odds of my home being broken into by multiple bad guys are much more slim, and I've got an adequate method of dealing with that circumstance that is also appropriate to the risk. :)

CoRoMo
July 23, 2009, 09:55 AM
Has been, is and always will be a shotgun...there is no kind of "vs. anything", handguns and silly AR's aren't as good

That's absurd. The gun is only as good as you are.

Another AR15 for HD here.

MHBushmaster
July 23, 2009, 10:04 AM
"I don't believe my wife needs a overpriced semi automatic weapon such as AR15 for HD. The training required for her to become proficient in its use makes it an impractical HD weapon. She is far better off with a shotgun"

Chuck, the manual of arms for an AR15 is easier to learn and has less things.
Manual of Arms for basic loading procedure.
AR: insert magazine (should already be inserted in HD situations), release bolt catch/pull back on charging handle, thumb disengages safety. Done.

Shotgun:
Take individual shells, put them into the mag tube one at a time (repeat 5-7 times depending upon model), push and hold slide release button, operate pump to rear all the way (don't short stroke) and then push the pump all the way forward (you mentioned a Mossy 500), with right thumb reach on top of stock to snick off safety (if a pistol grip Mossy 500 take entire right hand off grip/trigger to disengage safety). Done.

My wife enjoys shooting all of my AR's, she is hesitant to shoot defensive loads (slugs and buck-hi brass type) through my/our (:o) 870. Given the choice, she opts for an AR over a pump shotgun. That is just my wife though.

As I stated before, pump shotgun will get it done; but to say that a pump shotgun is the end all-be all home defense long arm is an over-statement.

HarleyFixer
July 23, 2009, 10:15 AM
All of them

Blakenzy
July 23, 2009, 10:22 AM
Winchester 1300 Defender, in plain-jane configuration. Usually loaded with 00 or no.1 buckshot.

bri
July 23, 2009, 10:55 AM
I'd say whatever you're most comfortable with at 3am, after getting jolted from a dead sleep. For me, a trusty old 870 express with an 18" barrel (glock 21 for backup).

DMK
July 23, 2009, 11:12 AM
Home defense?

One of my 1911s or my CZ75s. Why? Because, no matter where I am, or what I am doing I can have it either on my hip or within a few steps reach.

I have a number of carbines and shotguns that I would prefer to have in my hands, but I'm not going to have a long gun slung over my shoulder when I am doing yard work or working in the garage. The 45 that I have with me is much better than the 12ga I left in the house

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/CCO2.jpg
Colt CCO

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/Govt.jpg
Custom Full Size Govt. Model

http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/CZ-75_03.jpg
CZ75B 9mm (bottom), CZ75B 40S&W (top)

Kwanger
July 23, 2009, 11:36 AM
The gun I'd grab in a panic (from my whopping collection of 2) would be my Glock 17. Pull trigger, it go bang.....always.

DHJenkins
July 23, 2009, 11:44 AM
Whatever is closest at the time. It doesn't matter what you've got if you can't get to it when you need it.

They're all lethal in the right hands.

Sheepdog1968
July 23, 2009, 11:47 AM
For 18 years it was a simple factor stock Mossberg 500. About two years ago I wanted to upgrade. I bought a Mossberg 590A1 so I could have ghost ring sights on it. I put a side saddle on it. I cringed and bought the Surefire font foreend. It required some dremmeling of the bayonet lug to make it fit. I found the recoil bothers me now. It didn't when I was in my early 20s. As such I bought the Knoxx recoil rear stock for it (not the one with the pistol grip. Rather one that looks like a rifle stock so I can still easily reach the safety tang). Most importantly, I took a two day class with Loui Awerbuck to make sure I really knew how to use it. The backup is a Sig P220 45 ACP with a Surefire X300 on it and Ashley XS sights. The pistol I lug around the house so I'm always armed and can shoot my way back to shotgun. I feel well protected.

Having said that I felt well protected when it was just the Mossberg 500.

I think just about any brand of shotgun would be fine for home defense.

GodGuns&Guitars
July 23, 2009, 11:48 AM
Norinco model 99 coach gun, double barreled 12 gauge 3" magnum with rabbit ears and 18" of barrels. If they come through that, then there's two 1911's waiting.

Dave Workman
July 23, 2009, 12:29 PM
Colt Commander.
Olympic Arms Street Deuce
Springfield NM
Model 19 S&W 2 1/2-inch

And that's just what I had on my belt :D:D:D

Erik M
July 23, 2009, 04:56 PM
Mossberg 500 w/ 6 position collapseable stock. picatinny rail with 5mv laser, loaded with 00 buck / buckhammers alternating.

damien
July 23, 2009, 05:42 PM
I wouldn't know. Haven't had enough break-ins to test them all out. :D

woad_yurt
July 23, 2009, 08:56 PM
I like the one I shoot the best:

http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee150/woad_yurt/SWModel1001.jpg

AirplaneDoc
July 23, 2009, 09:05 PM
a 12Ga pump. The Sound of a 12ga pump action is easily reconigizable and bad guy will most likley know what comes next.

Whichever 45 I can get my hands on would be my 2nd choice.

Deltaboy
July 23, 2009, 09:19 PM
45 in the Recliner Pump 870 in reach. 38 in my front left pocket I go for layers of firepower.

Deanimator
July 23, 2009, 09:45 PM
My 4" S&W Model 29-2 loaded with Speer 200gr. Gold Dot Blazers.

Where I live now, any non-NFA long gun is useless. When I lived in a place with more room, my Ithaca 7 shot Deer Slayer Police Special.

Ballistic Mule
July 23, 2009, 09:57 PM
Winchester Defender 00 buck. But they will have to hear the saftey click, as i've already racked the slide.

kw11b2p
July 23, 2009, 10:00 PM
Is it excessive to have a gun in every room of the house........because that's my goal. Am I going overboard? I currently have a gun on every floor in the house. My feeling has always been that ITS BETTER TO HAVE IT AND NOT NEED IT THAN NEED IT AND NOT HAVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JHK94
July 23, 2009, 10:02 PM
I have a gun in many rooms. I mean, I've got to store them somewhere!

kw11b2p
July 23, 2009, 10:02 PM
BY THE WAY....Taurus Pt 845 downstairs and a sigma 9mm upstairs (yeah I know it's a cheap gun, but it gets the job done and is surprisingly accurate).

Girodin
July 23, 2009, 10:06 PM
Is it excessive to have a gun in every room of the house........because that's my goal. Am I going overboard?

It is a lot easier to simply carry one on your person IMO. I am more scared of someone breaking in and stealing guns not in a safe when I'm not home than I am of the gun I have on my person being inadequate should someone break in while I am home. Although when I am home I usually keep a long gun out as well.

Sotuh11325
July 23, 2009, 10:07 PM
I love my S&W M&P 45. Never had to use it in anger but it always fires at the range no matter what I put through it. Not one jam. Ever. And 45 packs a good punch.


I also have the good 'ole Winchester 1300a with a folding stock and a flash light. Any shotgun si always a good defense item to have- especially something short with allot of ammo capacity like a defender.

RDCL
July 23, 2009, 10:08 PM
12 gauge pump.

Will stop ANY intruder, yet unlikely to harm my neighbors.
Also, has a very high "imtimidation factor"....and I'm not talking about the "racking-the-slide-noise"....the huge bore says "GO AWAY>>>>LEAVE ME IN PEACE".

....because I don't want to HAVE to shoot someone.


Russ

fullauto380
July 23, 2009, 10:26 PM
I want a sawed off 12ga sbs or o/u if I can find one other wise I'm goin to get SERBU SUPER SHORTY. that short little 870

kw11b2p
July 23, 2009, 10:36 PM
Legal?????????????

whatnickname
July 23, 2009, 10:54 PM
I have several stashed around the house. The one next to my bed is an 870 magnum with 20" barrel (retired and re-worked riot gun). I keep it loaded with four rounds of 000 buckshot. Why? Extremely reliable. A hit from this anywhere is an immediate fight stopper and nearly always fatal. Fits with my overall philosophy: "If you're going to a gun fight take a long gun"

I also have a Springfield XD 40 equiped with a stream light. A G19, S&W 640 in .357 magnum and a S&W 638 at strategic places in the house. Several of these weapons and my CCW guns too. All are highly reliable and of sufficient caliber that anyone shot with them is likely to stay shot!

Ballistic Mule
July 23, 2009, 10:59 PM
4 locations, Who sits next to the night stand?

DasFriek
July 23, 2009, 11:14 PM
Im gonna state a few things that are just my opinion,it doesnt mean its right for anyone else besides me.

For me a semi auto,pump high cap 12 guage with 00 buck mags in it is the best dedicated HD weapon.But i wont take away at times an AR/AK wouldnt hurt,but in most cases isnt neccesary.
I also feel 1 gun is enough and it doesnt have to be on you all the time,but perferable it be located next to where you sleep.
I for one am tired of carrying my gun all day when i come home and if i gotta cook dinner id just as soon have it off my waist.I also dont feel threatened enough to have a gun in every room.Its kind of excessive imo,and on the edge of paranoid.

BUT,i feel since this America you can do what ever YOU want,and my opinion doesnt mean squat but only to me.Alot of my decisions are based on the fact i dont live alone so i get a extra moment of warning if needed.Also i live in a rural town with a lower crime rate.Im also in my late 30's in age so i feel a bit safer do to my ability to defend myself with my hands somewhat.
This may be totaly unacceptable for many people,but im fine with it.As am i fine with them having 20 guns spread out over a whole house and one strapped to thier waist.

Ballistic Mule
July 23, 2009, 11:38 PM
Not paranoid, gun safe is full to be honest.why not spread 'em out. It's called Prepared not paranoid,or fear.

DasFriek
July 24, 2009, 12:02 AM
Not paranoid, gun safe is full to be honest.why not spread 'em out. It's called Prepared not paranoid,or fear.
I see it that if i felt i needed a gun in everyroom id be a bit paranoid.But i also dont own so many guns i could ever do that,id have to go buy one for each room.
But since you already have them i dont see it as big paranoid issue.
Everything im stating is what pertains to me and how i feel what i want and need.
When im talking about paranoia,i dont know you and cant say if you are or not.I wouldnt even attempt it,im saying if i did that id feel i would be a bit paranoid.
Everyone has differant views,and whats right for me isnt right for you.
If i had enough guns from collecting,yes id have one in everyroom also.But i still wouldnt carry one on my hip at home.But if my life was threatened then yeh id carry one on me at home also.

Ballistic Mule
July 24, 2009, 12:16 AM
I don't carry all day either, and like Isaid I'm outta space! We don't have any kids so instead of stick'in them in the closet, I like to have the old girls around. I've been collecting my whole life. A gun in every room??.....Hmmmm??.....

doc2rn
July 24, 2009, 12:28 AM
All of them

I am with Harley Fixer on this one!

FlyinBryan
July 24, 2009, 01:12 AM
if there are crooks in my house that wish to harm me, my first communication to them that i wish they would leave would be a general broadcast of #4 lead shot via a 50 dollar h&r single shot 12gauge with an 18.5" barrel.

further negotiations, if i still had an audience, would be individual requests with 230g hydra-shoks from a 1911 pistol. i keep a loaded 8rd wilson combat magazine in the pistol, and 3 more loaded in my nightstand.

sig87
July 24, 2009, 01:30 AM
12 ga

CH47gunner
July 24, 2009, 01:35 AM
Bedroom gun is a Winchester Defender 1300 w/ #4 buck.

Night-stand gun is a Baby Eagle 9mm w/ 62gn Magsafes.

Garage/Carry around the house gun is a S&W Model 60 .38Spl w/ 125gn JHP's.

Bruce

Ballistic Mule
July 24, 2009, 01:54 AM
Glad to see all the 1300's out there. There's a reason you don't see em' very often in the shops. It's a shame we won't see anymore of the old dogs coming out any more, after there long service and all.

FMFDevildoc
July 24, 2009, 02:41 AM
This is a topic that can be "nuked" quite easily - in other words, many of us all think of it until it becomes a mental nuclear melt down of Chernobyl proportions.

My simple, humble opinion is a few basic things:
1) Reliability - I want and NEED a fire arm that can be cleaned and PM'd, shot on ocassion and not fail me.
2) User friendly - meaning I can fire my Glock 22 40SW like second nature, my wife will shoot it into the dirt in anticipation of the 'bang'.
3) Effectiveness - I looooooooove my .22LR and my old Beretta 25 jet fire, yet I can not rely on them to dissuade violence wielded towards me*

*However, before we all start droning on the lowly small calibers - I have per capita with mine own eyes witnessed more shooting deaths by 22, 25, 32 than ANY other rounds - I am a salty, grumpy Fire-medic and a former military medic and have seen ENDLESS shooting deaths from the small rounds.

However, I digress.

I agree with a few of the guys there is not necessarily a 'perfect' gun - example given; I concur with the gentleman who invoked my favorite crew served weapon MK19!! While in the middle east, I wished I had a MK19.... But I had a M9 beretta and M4 carbine - both of which I could easily end human life, on a lesser scale with, than the MK19. Thankfully, my Marines never let this Corpsman go ape **** with a MK19. (humor, please only humor)

In closing - my three requirements are met with three weapons.
Wife has a mossberg persuader pistol grip with #4 "T" shot downstairs and a revolver with .38 Hornady XTP upstairs.

I have my glock 40 with hydra shoks - that ALWAYS goes bang.
Thank the good lord I and my dear wife have yet to ever fire these weapons in defense of self or home.

Ultimately - Every day I do not have to fire a 'home defense' weapon is a good day; it is a day I come home from the fire house to meet my dear wife and baby!

Besides - shooting prairie dogs is alot more fun and zero legal liability.

dom1104
July 24, 2009, 11:15 AM
man. there must not be a lot of people with children on this forum.

"I have guns in every room of my house"

Yeah well, thats just not a good idea with small kids.

The best solution is to have a gun on YOU at all times in the house. Not laying around where your kids can blow their heads off.

If I left a gun laying around, and my little baby blew his head off with it because of MY negligence... I would be sorely tempted to shoot myself next.

Its a nightmare scenario.

If you feel your threat level is THAT HIGH that you need to be on high alert all the time, just carry the gun with you. and keep the heavy artillery in your bedroom where your kids DONT GO EVER.

This has two benefits.

1. they cant get your guns hanging HIGH on the wall.

2. They wont interrupt the process of making more babies :)

But seriously, we dont all live in a compound. a pistol on the belt and a rifle / shotgun in the bedroom really is the most practical for some of us.

inSight-NEO
July 24, 2009, 02:23 PM
I really dont have a "best" or "favorite" HD weapon, but I generally favor the 12 ga. shotgun overall. Right now I use a Mossberg 590 "converted" to an A1 and particularly like this weapon due to its capacity and safety location. Its a bit heavy with its current barrel, but still manageable.

Now, I dont know much about rifles, but it seems as if such rounds could be construed as far too penetrative (at least for my tastes) for HD use....not sure.

The .45 ACP or .38 Special +P/.357 Mag (due more to the advantages of the revolver vs. the round(s) it fires) would be close in running for second place.

AgentAdam
July 24, 2009, 03:39 PM
Bushmaster .223
Glock 9mm
Mossberg 12g

markb
July 24, 2009, 03:45 PM
AK
USP
Mossberg

1st grab will be for the AK under the bed. Walls, flooring, not an issue. BTW, no kids in the house.

putteral
July 24, 2009, 03:56 PM
Depends on what room I am in. No children at home.
P95 in the master
Pt 92 in the den
EFS in the great room
PPK/S in the kitchen
Carry mr PT 111 When I am in the garage

dobrzemetal
July 24, 2009, 05:26 PM
I laugh reading these posts, some of you guys get so intricate with your plans and senarios its awesome. God forbid if someone breaks into your house, they will definatly end up with a closed casket hah! just remember that you could have a minigun but if you don't wake up or realize the bad guys are in your house in time, your pretty much screwed.

I personally use a plasma rifle for HD, only the best, that or my browing hi power.

Erik M
July 24, 2009, 05:52 PM
I like the one I shoot the best:


http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee150/woad_yurt/SWModel1001.jpg


I'll bet the bananna harmonica could would confuse/dissuade most attackers as well.

Gun Wielding Maniac
July 24, 2009, 06:29 PM
http://www.gunco.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=16565&size=1
http://www.gunco.net/gallery/watermark.php?file=15850&size=1

DFW1911
July 24, 2009, 06:51 PM
Currently my Stoeger Coach Gun is primary, Glock 22 w/ Streamlight is backup. I know, a double barrel may be "out of date", but I'm good with it and if I really need to get my 870 the closet is about 4 feet away!

The best HD gun? As others have said, the one you have.

Take care,
DFW1911

Bill B.
July 24, 2009, 07:39 PM
Remington 870 synthetic 7-round.

......................................+1

22-rimfire
July 24, 2009, 07:41 PM
My threat level at home is about ZERO. It can happen of course. It has happened once in the past while I was asleep (burglary, but I don't loose a lot of sleep over that event). Afterwards, I always chuckled to myself about how prepared I am for a burglar in my home and I slept right through it. Dogs ran them out and I followed with sleepy eyes and no gun to see absolutely NOTHING wrong in my house until the following morning when I noticed some expensive things missing.

I have no favorites. I carry a snub nosed 38spl. I have a 3" Ruger GP100 loaded with 38's as my nightstand gun and a Glock Model 23 for backup. Shotgun too, but I doubt I would grab that unless the problem was "outside".

wjh2657
July 24, 2009, 08:03 PM
Maverick 88. The only mods are a high viz bead and a slip on Limb Eaze butt pad. Cruiser mode with #4 buckshot.

http://photos2.pix.ie/9E/88/9E8850886C1A4DD0B64B263C0E55A134.jpg

mljdeckard
July 24, 2009, 08:55 PM
Inland M-1 carbine.

It's plenty potent coming from the carbine-length barrel, and small enough to maneuver indoors. My wife can use it with confidence. I keep 30 rounds in pouches on the buttstock.

It's an heirloom, that my grandfather paid $25 for when he joined the NRA in the 50s, and while I would hate to see it get seized as evidence after a shoot, I know my grandfather would tell me that it would be foolish to NOT use it to save a life. If he, my father, and myself handed it down this far, and it saved a life, it's worth it no matter what happens to it.

chieftain
July 24, 2009, 08:59 PM
To those that choose a low capacity firearm for home defense, you are statistically correct, you will most likely never need to fire your gun multiple times at multiple bad guys (if ever),,,however, you don't need to look far back in the current news to see more than one instance where MULTIPLE ARMED ATTACKERS have laid siege to people in their residences.
In those instances, I'd hate to have a 6 shot revolver and have run it 6x so that I've got an empty gun while staring at the 7th bad guy...It is not about the chances or odds of getting into armed confrontation, its about what is at stake when trying to survive an armed confrontation.

Can you give me some REAL examples of Multiple Armed Attackers laying “SIEGE”, to a non criminally involved home owner in the United States?

SIEGE, BEING THE OPERATIVE WORD. I have actually been involved in a REAL siege, not in the United States. I don’t use the word lightly.

I live in Phoenix, AZ. We have a lot of dangerous and unique home invasion activities going on, but I have yet to see or hear of a ‘SIEGE”.

As to 7 guys? Let’s play pick a number, how about 31 guys or if they should use a soviet tank or even two tanks. I no longer hump a LAW (didn’t work very well against tanks anyway).

To any risk here is a risk assessment required and that is the probable risk and a “Jesus” factor that you plan for. Most of us live in the real world and we plan for probabilities not possibilities.

I have known a bunch of guys in my day that were more deadly with a 6 shot revolver than any of today’s Mall Ninja’s or internet commandos will ever be, regardless the weapon or the number of rounds it held. Of course most of them didn’t write about it on the internet. They lived it. (Apologies, to Bill Jordon and Jim Cirillo, both who killed a lot of bad guys with revolvers ON DUTY and wrote excellent books. I recommend their books to any budding gun fighter, real or imagined. Both men, superior pistolero's, would choose a shoulder weapon when ever time and/or place allowed.)

I lean more towards a rifle/carbine these days myself. But along side my bed is the ole’ double barrel hammer gun with a couple of #1 buck in it. I guess you would be worried about number of shots. I don’t. If I chose the hammer gun for the nights festivities, I am still in my defensive position with a enough guns, both qualitatively and quantitatively and ammo to equip a small third world nation. Then there is my small grab bag, for when the fight is "carry out".

Along side the hammer gun there two carbines One loaded for playing outside and has an Aimpoint. Each set up accordingly. The one set up for playing inside also has a white light that is set up to strobe, EoTech and has laser capability too.

It ain’t about the weapon you chose. It is about the person deploying that weapon:

MINDSET
TATICS
TRAINING
PRACTICE
MAINTENANCE
And when ever possible EXPERIENCE

In the end it doesn’t matter what weapon implements you use, if the above issues are not settled. It’s the Man (or women) who fights, not the weapons. It should be a lesson well RE-learned in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

Erik M
July 25, 2009, 12:43 AM
2" PVC potato gun converted to an air cannon filled with rusty roofing tacks.

kda
July 25, 2009, 01:13 AM
12 Gauge Pump 00 Buckshot. It will be the first thing I grab if the occasion arises.

WTBguns10kOK
July 25, 2009, 04:14 AM
The m16/ar/m4 has been a failure since it's inception, imo and now I'm not starting some argument about that opinion, just an opinion. I can't remember anyone say they're more reliable than pump shotguns or even AK-47's. Sure they've gotten a lot better over the years, but you can buy 5 reliable pump shotguns for the price of a AR gun which many don't trust. If a shotshell FTF, you can just rack a new round, my 20 gauge has never FTF all the years I've shot it. And I think most women and kids over 10 can fire a 20 gauge. If not just put a banana clip on a .22. So yes, pump shotguns always were, are and always will be the best option until a new technology arrives. It's like a revolver when your handgun must fire, and if it doesn't you just go to the next round, easily. You're dumping a whole lot more lead and putting more holes in someone, and IT'S SIMPLER. AR's (at least in 223) are jack of some, master of none. 12 gauge for everyone who can handle it, so much the better.

And forget the whole "what if we need to fight an army of typical high road 7'8" high-on-pcp thugs?" No one cares. Getting hit by a nice heavy spreadshot or a little .22 sized bullet isn't even a comparison.

And finally, whoever it was that said shotgun spreadshot over penetrates, well then I guess your assertion about the "proper" ammo may not be the proper ammo, eh?

mljdeckard
July 25, 2009, 11:23 AM
Calling the M-16/AR/M-4 a failure since inception is a bold, sweeping claim that you seem to be very much in the minority in asserting. I guess you are just smarter than me, every member in here, the Department of Defense, and the Marine rifle company I just spent two weeks on the range with in Africa.

chieftain
July 25, 2009, 04:33 PM
Calling the M-16/AR/M-4 a failure since inception is a bold, sweeping claim that you seem to be very much in the minority in asserting. I guess you are just smarter than me, every member in here, the Department of Defense, and the Marine rifle company I just spent two weeks on the range with in Africa.

Yea,

And my Marine rifle company in 1967 was almost wiped out several times because the Matty Mattel wouldn't work. But I know that was 40 years ago and doesn't count any more.

And today I read over and over again how, because the writer got lousy customer service, the writer will not use that weapon, service or company again.

I guess we have different standards. Some use customer service as a measure of a product or company, some of use human life as the standard.

Yes, it does seem that we are in the minority, and have different standards.

It's America, you choice.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

QUICK_DRAW_McGRAW
July 25, 2009, 04:49 PM
every gun ive ever bought, because it better then nothing at all

ArfinGreebly
July 25, 2009, 04:57 PM
You're asking me to guess, given that I've never actually had to defend my home or my person with a gun.

There are a couple of scenarios, however, that I can extrapolate into a plausible conclusion.

Some years ago, when my only weapon was a Ruger 10/22, I was treated to the sight of a mob marching (angrily) past my front door. We were completely unprepared for any kind of "group social encounter." Never figured that would happen. We lived less than five minutes' walk from the governor's mansion. Not terribly long afterward, I bought a rifle that was older than I was -- an M1 Carbine -- with that exact scenario in mind. My home was laid out in such a way that I had an uninterrupted 60-foot shot from my bedroom door to the front door. Ideal for carbine engagement. I didn't worry about over-penetration, as every house in the neighborhood was brick, including ours. In that place and time, the M1 Carbine was my best defensive weapon.

And then we moved.

The new home had stairs, tight corners, restricted views, and all that. And typical wood-frame construction. After spending a few hours privately walking through the house with a variety of weapons, I settled on a 4" .357 revolver as my choice.

And then we moved.

The new home has stairs, but a very different and much more open layout, with multiple entrances. I now favor 15 rounds of 9mm from a 3-inch all-metal pistol. I also keep the carbine handy.

What's "best" changes as the setting changes.

If we move again, who knows which will be "best?"

ChCx2744
July 26, 2009, 09:49 AM
ALL of my guns are EXCELLENT home defense guns...Hell, they are EXCELLENT all around ANYTHING guns. I trust my life, along with my family and loved ones lives', with ANY of my guns. I STRONGLY believe that my guns will work accurately 99% of the time if I EVER need to use them. I have alot of faith in my weapons, as should everyone else who train with and own reliable firearms.

Ala Dan
July 26, 2009, 08:31 PM
Remington 12 gague "Marine Magnum"; best darn hiome D' protection
outside of Springfield Armory 4" XD .45 ACP; or my Colt Match Target
HB Compeition 5.56 AR-15~! ;)

chieftain
July 26, 2009, 08:40 PM
What's "best" changes as the setting changes.


Assuming initial assessment was rational and practical, WHY?

Fred

Stupid should hurt

Avtomat Kalashnikova
July 26, 2009, 08:58 PM
saiga 12

deek26
July 26, 2009, 09:02 PM
i will tell all u guys out there rightnow! that the best home defense gun that you can use to defend yourself is a 12 gauge shot gun pump action or semi, what i got is a bennili M4 semi 12 gauge and i use slugs and 00 buckshot mind you a bennili is expensive but other than that i would chose a remington 870 tac and fellas or ladies don't buy a mossburg they are cheap junk and they have a slow action but to each there own ya! know so get a good shot gun for yourself! know you can awenswer the door in confidence lol and it don't matter what kind of vest there wearing either they gettin ****ed and whoever else is with them! good luck!

ArfinGreebly
July 26, 2009, 09:10 PM
Assuming initial assessment was rational and practical, WHY?

Fred

First house was laid out favorably for carbine deployment.

Second house was problematic for any kind of long arm.

Third house was a toss-up. Could use a carbine, could use a pistol. There are just enough awkward places that I lean more toward the pistol here. With any kind of chance to prepare, I'd probably go with both the carbine and the pistol.

With some specific carbine training, I might be able to use the carbine under most conditions. As it stands, I try to tailor the arm selection to the application environment.

That make sense?

historybuff
July 26, 2009, 09:16 PM
my wife and I both have a S&W M&P 9mm on our separate sides of the bed just in case!

sniknah
July 26, 2009, 10:36 PM
my colt ar 15 is the best home defense on the planet...just saying:)

shiftyer1
July 27, 2009, 12:00 AM
For use in the house I have a 1911 in the nightstand and a s&w 3953 in 9mm in the kitchen. If I need to check out something outside i normally grab one of several pump shotguns. My reasoning for this is because I don't have a large home and the sg is just a little to long. Not that I wouldn't grab it if it was what was closest in a time of need. For outside work it could be anything from coyotes to feral dogs to hogs so I prefer the sg. I even have a .357 blackhawk loaded with snakeshot handy so really it just depends what closest at the time.

flrfh213
July 27, 2009, 01:59 AM
wife has her 38 and i have what ever pistol i was carring that day.... 22/357/9mm/40/45... depends on day, mood and what i pulled out of the safe... but i dont need the ak or 7mm mag for HD, that is overkill and i dont think my neighbors want holes in their walls either... rifles are too .... well i frefer a handgun for the hd end of life, my hallway is not big enough to need all that power, it is a small house...

razorback2003
July 27, 2009, 02:09 AM
I have used a 38 and 9mm for home defense most of the time. The 38 is for carry in public, the 9mm is for nightstand. The 38 is put in the nightstand when I go to sleep, but I would use the Glock 19 9mm with night sights at home b/c I shoot it better than the Airweight 38 with no night sights. The 9mm has a little stopping power.

When I lived alone in the country, I did keep a 12 ga pump Browning chamber and magazine loaded (I didn't want an intruder to hear me chamber a round) under my bed with buckshot in addition to a handgun kept in the nightstand. The shotgun could also be changed out with birdshot for pests. With police response times a possible 30 minutes when living in the country, I felt better with a handgun AND shotgun at home at night.

HomeDefense
July 27, 2009, 03:11 AM
Best personal "gun" defense is spelled B-A-L-L-I-S-T-I-C-S. Whether it's practice at a range or money sunk into professional firearms training and qualifying, your best home defense will only be as good as those defending it and their knowledge of how to efficiently and immediately incapacitate their adversary.

It doesn't take years to acquire, maybe just a couple hours of research and comparison, but understanding the effects of a bullet upon entering the human body will help you make wiser decisions on what to select for home defense.

It basically boils down to this: the HEAVIER a bullet weighs, the DEEPER the penetration and the HIGHER the chances [efficiency] of IMMEDIATE INCAPACITATION. It is NOT VELOCITY that accomplishes penetration. However, they BOTH work hand in hand.

I'm a firm believer in defending what is rightfully yours and using whatever means are necessary to defend, including taking the life of an adversary posing as a threat. The only way to do this, however, is be sure that whatever means you are using to defend with WILL exact your expectations rather than disappoint them.

In the line of handguns, I've come to the conclusion that the one suitable for this scenario is with a .45 caliber. I believe the .45 AUTO has a 260 grain load too (highest I've even heard of for .45 but I don't think these are ACPs). The current standard is 230 grain (weight of the bullet) for .45 ACP and that should be sufficient for getting the job done. Every other caliber smaller than a .41 Remington Magnum is around 10mm at 205 grains and it just goes down from there. The BARE MINIMUM that ANY bullet should weigh for self-defense is 125 grains. There are countless stories of police that have responded to a narcotics scene with armed men in a car opening fire and killing two or three police, themselves being wounded by four or five 9m bullets in their backs still able to function and operate a gun. Home defense is NOT the same as range or practice.

At this point, notice that the emphasis in all this information is NOT one gun over another. Guns never killed anybody other giving someone brain damage being used as a clubbing device and if I could put together a small contraption that has a metal bore tube with something to hammer that primer in the back of the cartridge with, I'm sure somebody could get hurt if pointed in the right direction. Bullets are the killer whether it's in a Jennings or a top of the line .22 revolver. Whatever :-P

You should also take into consideration the efficient expansion of that bullet as not all bullets expand very well. Jacketed Hollow Points (JHP) expand a little more reliably than Round Nose (RN) and from there you can get into the lead, etc etc. Why is this important? When a bullet enters the human body, it begins to expand. You can see the same effect throwing Play Dough onto the concrete, only here we're talking about a much harder substance, usually lead. As it begins to expand, physics of course takes over, that bullet is not as smooth and pointed as before and as the overall front surface area increases, the bullet will begin to decrease in velocity until it comes to a rapid but complete stop inside the body of a human body. Heavy clothing can sometimes interfere with penetration as the bullet will begin to expand prematurely upon hitting hard metal objects or material. Hence life saving stories of people having coins in their shirt pocket or a Bible that stopped a bullet and saved their life. The bullet expanded prematurely and was unable to penetrate deep enough (if at all) to damage any vital organs.

Always remember that if your motive behind having a gun at your bedside at night is to be able to defend your family in the event of an intruder seeking to harm the life of either yourself or your loved ones, once that gun is drawn on your engaging threat, you shoot to kill. Always. Anyone who has ever shot to negotiate or shot to injure or shot to temporarily incapacitate someone just long enough to put the dog leash on them is probably either dead or in jail to this day.

The key to immediate incapacitation (which is ultimately your goal in an emergency life/death home defense situation) is penetration. This is the only way you will be able to defend yourself. Not by spraying them with Bear Mace or messing around with "dummy" loads (those are loads that dummies use in their magazines when they care more about their adversary's life than that of their own family's).

Realistically, it will take more than just one round to accomplish immediate incapacitation, even with a .45 because not everyone is that perfect of a shot (unless you're Bob Munden). Observe all safe gun handling rules, do what you need to do if you are genuinely in fear for your life and just be ready to show up in court when Uncle Money shows up to press civil charges because you shot their nephew who was on their way home from feeding the homeless and "stumbled" into the wrong house. Find you a lawyer before hand (in other words, before anything happens - as in while you actually have a clear mind to think; could be today, tomorrow, this week, preferably sooner than later) and ask if they handle firearms cases. If so, try to find you one that can educate you on what you should and shouldn't do under certain circumstances and scenarios. Come up with questions and a bunch of scenarios you may find yourself in and ask what sequence of events must take place before you can pull out your gun. You may find some disagreeable information but that's

Hope this helps. Ballistics will certainly help you in making a decision on which gun to have on hand for home defense. So will practice on the range and safe gun handling techniques to make sure you can quickly and efficiently draw your gun without sweeping others (that is, the direction your gun points as you bring it on target) or putting other innocent bystandards in danger.

Remember, with great power comes great responsibility. Know your gun, your environment and your local, state and federal laws. I think that's the best home defense you could possibly have is someone who is well trained, ready and able to defend, having understood the consequences of their actions with whatever gun they own or decide to use.

Hope this helps!

Matt

chieftain
July 27, 2009, 07:54 AM
First house was laid out favorably for carbine deployment.

Second house was problematic for any kind of long arm.

Third house was a toss-up. Could use a carbine, could use a pistol. There are just enough awkward places that I lean more toward the pistol here. With any kind of chance to prepare, I'd probably go with both the carbine and the pistol.

With some specific carbine training, I might be able to use the carbine under most conditions. As it stands, I try to tailor the arm selection to the application environment.

That make sense?

Not at all.

When is less stopping power appropriate? When the ranges are very short? That seems entirely wrong, the closer the Bad guy may be when you get a shot at him, the more effective your weapons had better be. That indicates a shoulder arm, not a side arm.

I am fascinated with the “second house” being “problematical. What does that mean?

For reference:

From Dr Gary Roberts, the leading Terminal Balistics researcher in America today:

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.

Basically all the standard service calibers work when fed good quality ammunition. The platform picked tends to dictate the caliber. For example, Glocks and Sigs tend to run best in 9 mm; the S&W M&P is the first .40 S&W pistol that seems to offer an ideal ergonomic and shooter friendly package; while a properly customized 5" steel-frame single-stack 1911 in .45 ACP is a superb, unparalleled choice for the dedicated user willing to spend a significant amount of money to get it properly initially set-up and considerable time to maintain it. For folks who want a .45 ACP pistol, but don't want to invest the funds and effort into getting a good 1911, they would be better served with a S&W .45 ACP M&P, HK45, S&W 4566, or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

Whatever you choose, make sure you fire at least 500 and preferably 1000 failure free shots through your pistol prior to using it for duty. If your pistol cannot fire at least 1000 consecutive shots without a malfunction, something is wrong and it is not suitable for duty/self-defense use.

------------------------------------------

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset

-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice

-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system

-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

-- Keep shooting until the threat is neutralized; absent CNS hits, incapacitation is very frequently DELAYED until blood loss is sufficient to cause the onset of hypovolemic shock--this could be seconds, minutes, or hours...

-- If you are in a potential threat situation where you are feeling unusually suspicious, your senses are on high alert, you have "alarm bells going off" in your head, etc... if at all possible, it is time to employ a long gun instead of a handgun.

--Dr Gary Roberts Leading American terminal ballistics researcher.

* * *
The cogent advice by Urey Patrick of the FBI FTU should be routinely heeded:

“Experienced officers implicitly recognize...when potential violence is reasonably anticipated their preparations are characterized by obtaining as many shoulder weapons as possible.”

And

“...no law enforcement officer should ever plan to meet an expected attack armed only with a handgun.”

Of course your experience and knowledge of CQB may be such that you would recommend or use other weapons than these professionals.

If you know any CQB instructors recommending using a handgun instead of a shoulder weapon, please advise of us them.

America is free for folks to chose to prove Darwin’s theory.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

HomeDefense
July 27, 2009, 09:29 AM
or possibly the SA .45 ACP XD.

Tactical 5" ;-) Also a very good choice.

natman
July 27, 2009, 12:31 PM
Folks,
Shotguns with proper defensive ammo (slugs or 00, 000, or #1 Buchshot) over-penetrate more than an AR15 loaded with defensive ammo.

It is a ballistic fact. There are no disputes with the science.

Just saying something is indisputable doesn't make it so. You need to back it up. Like this:

According to these tests (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm) a 223 from an AR penetrated considerably farther than 12 ga buckshot.

Here's the original test (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm) where the AR penetrated 12 drywalls or 12 pine boards and kept on going as compared with the 8 drywalls for the buckshot.

Buckshot penetrates less than a 223 rifle, but either will penetrate enough to endanger other occupants of a normal house. So will any other round that penetrates enough to provide a quick stop.

Moral of the story: Don't miss.

ArfinGreebly
July 27, 2009, 04:16 PM
First house was laid out favorably for carbine deployment.

Second house was problematic for any kind of long arm.

Third house was a toss-up. Could use a carbine, could use a pistol. There are just enough awkward places that I lean more toward the pistol here. With any kind of chance to prepare, I'd probably go with both the carbine and the pistol.

With some specific carbine training, I might be able to use the carbine under most conditions. As it stands, I try to tailor the arm selection to the application environment.

That make sense?

Not at all.

When is less stopping power appropriate? When the ranges are very short? That seems entirely wrong, the closer the Bad guy may be when you get a shot at him, the more effective your weapons had better be. That indicates a shoulder arm, not a side arm.

I am fascinated with the “second house” being “problematical. What does that mean?

[ . . . ]

Of course your experience and knowledge of CQB may be such that you would recommend or use other weapons than these professionals.



Fred, it's more about my trust in my own ability to use a carbine under certain CQB conditions rather than the carbine itself.

Under "normal" conditions (for appropriate values of normal), the carbine is preferred, even taking into account my lack of formal training.

I am fascinated with the “second house” being “problematical. What does that mean?

The second house had a ghastly layout. Closed stairwells with tight corners, walls in awkward places, poorly placed entrances. We resolved after less than two months there that we wouldn't be renewing our lease if we had any choice in the matter.

M.C. Escher tried to render our house, but found it confusing . . .
102289 102290 :D

Again, with proper training, I might have had the confidence to deploy a carbine there and, given that I also have a significantly shorter carbine, albeit in a pistol caliber, that might have been viable. Lack of practice with the short carbine led me to exclude it in preference of the 4-inch .357 (7-shot) revolver.

Now that we're no longer living in an Escher lithograph, I find the new place more carbine-comfortable. I've also become substantially more competent with a pistol, while practice with the carbine has lagged.

Hopefully, by the end of the summer, I'll have had more time with the carbines and be able to re-evaluate.

Remember, it's not the carbine that needs the training, it is I who need that.

Claude Clay
July 27, 2009, 04:21 PM
house hasnt changed but kids age & needs change.

BHP and a lever 45LC have had the most use.
my daughter keeps a 20 pump in her room.
i file [1040] the dogs teeth annually.

Publius1688
July 27, 2009, 04:38 PM
Browning 12 ga auto, loaded with 00 Buck. However, I'm investigating a Saiga 12 ga, with a 10 round clip, and a folding stock.

The Annoyed Man
July 28, 2009, 12:55 AM
Well, we have a 12 gauge Mossberg, and several AR15s, and each of those may be a better choice, but the gun on my dresser is a USP Compact in .40 S&W with an Insight M2 tactical light mounted on it, and the long guns are in the safe. If I were going to go for a long gun, I'd probably use my AR carbine for reasons others have stated above, but there isn't a way for me to keep it handy in my bedroom. Too much other junk in the way. The pistol on the other hand sits on my dresser, right next to the bed, out of the way but easily accessible.

rjmckee
July 28, 2009, 09:01 PM
For years when our 3 pups would set up a ruckus I'd check our the area with my Rem 870.
We live in a rural area and our alarms (pups or outside lights go off) 2-3 times a month. I sleep with a CPAP and I realized that we needed to have a new plan. The shotgun was too unwieldy for room to room clearance. Tried the M4, was OK but what we do now is:
1. dear wife belts me in chest and I arise with handgun and light as fast as I can.
2. While I am fumbling and stumbling wife grabs the M4 ready to go. Typically she is behind cover with the carbine and I search. When all clear I usually find the pups are behind me, way behind me. We have many deer that travel through our yard traveling from one creek to another. 3 times they have bumped into our bedroom wall. It is crazy because the walls are 6" with brick exterior. I don't believe they are interested in our shrubs but they really can get me outta my mask quickly.
We are happy with our plan(s) as they evolve and we practice often.

Dulvarian
July 28, 2009, 09:23 PM
I use a .45ACP (Glock 21) with Extreme Shock ammo. Well, that's what is loaded in it. The second mag is +P hollowpoints. Say whatever you want, there is nothing in the world (that might be in my house) what I can't kill with 26 rounds from a .45. If I had a better place to post pics too, I would just post pics of them. I also have a G&P M3 flashlight mounted on the lower rail.

I am concerned about overpenetration. I live in a suburb with houses all around me. While I don't think a .223 round would have a lot of energy trying to exit through the brick exterior, I do worry if it was going out a window or something. Oh, and there are 3 kids in the house.

The dog alerts us before anything gets to the house. The alarm alerts us in there is anything inside the house. There was some comment on alarms being useless because of the delay... most of them can be set to variable delay. Mine stays on instant. The house is pitch black at night. When the house is dark, that LED light looks like just a really really really bright flashlight. The hotspot also makes for a really nice sight picture. Not even really trying, you can just center the light on the bad guy... Made my wife happy when I put the light on.

scotthsi
July 29, 2009, 07:16 AM
fellas or ladies don't buy a mossburg they are cheap junk and they have a slow action

What the hell are you talking about? The Mossberg 500 series shotguns are some of the most time tested and reliable shotguns ever. I bought mine used in 1987 and NEVER had a single problem with it with God knows how many shells of all kinds through it, both mine and the previous owner(s). "Slow action"...***? How is it "slower" than any other pump shotgun? I put an 18.5" barrel on it and it's a great handling short shotgun for home defense with 00 buck.

larry_minn
July 29, 2009, 03:52 PM
Like most it has changed over yrs. Started with 12 guage. (mainly Rem 870) to handgun for time.
Now its G21 till I get to the AR. Wife gets 870

DeepLiquid
July 29, 2009, 04:05 PM
Winchester 1300 with 00 buck, a S&W .357 in one nightstand and a S&W .38 in the other.

ArmedBear
July 29, 2009, 04:22 PM
When is less stopping power appropriate?

I'll bet that you choose to use less stopping power than you could, with every single defensive firearm you own.

Do you use .458 Winchester Magnum for home defense?

No?

It's available in short rifles.

Go get one!

Then again, if you're not using .600 Nitro Express, you're still using less stopping power.

So, unless you're holding a .600 NE, you obviously deserve to die, just as you said in your post.:rolleyes:

CQB =/= HD

Handguns can be carried, stashed, and secured in ways that carbines can't.

CQB implies foreknowledge: you know you're going into battle, or at least that you're going somewhere "hot".

Home defense implies home, where 99.99% to 100% of the time, you're not doing battle, you don't expect a battle, and you're not prepared for battle. Should I have to defend my home, I'll take a handgun in my pocket or stashed nearby where I can grab it quickly, over all the carbines in the world that are NOT next to me.

This isn't just about ballistics, and your own quote from Dr. somebody says that VERY CLEARLY.

I've seen one too many of these "carbines are everything and if you use a .45 you will die!" posts. They're just plain stupid, because defense with a firearm is not just about ballistics.

jakemccoy
July 29, 2009, 05:59 PM
870

It's reliable, I know it well because that's what I use for clays. Also, 00 Buck should get the job done.

rick2497
July 29, 2009, 08:19 PM
I keep a M&P 9mm with me almost all the time and have a short barrel 12 with a pistol grip stock and high capacity at home if the shi- really hits the fan.

CTGunner
July 29, 2009, 10:25 PM
Sig P226 with Sig Tactical Light and 20rd magazine.

HardShell
July 30, 2009, 06:08 PM
AR carbine with EOTech, Surefire forend, and suppressor -- instant-access safe mounted in the wall right beside the bed.

(Save the arguments. I used to be a staunch "shotgun for HD" guy too, and my wife's go-to is still an 870. I haven't been able to get her to come with me to any of the defensive carbine courses I've attended... yet! ;))

Logos
July 30, 2009, 06:25 PM
A pair of .40 Glocks. One in each hand. My house always has enough ambient light for me to shoot with success......the stranger might have some difficulty, but I'm at home.

Simple, affordable, maneuverable, reliable, effective.

If one should misfire or jam I can continue fire with the other.

If one should get knocked out of my hand I can continue fire with the other.

No disrespect for the long guns, but they are hard to maneuver in close quarters and around corners and we're talking about close quarters combat and the less there is for an attacker to grab, the better.

I can understand the short carbine theories, but you can't realistically have one in each hand, can you? No, you can't.

I have long guns for intermediate and long-range engagements, but for in-home......it's the Double-Glock method for me.

HardShell
July 30, 2009, 06:29 PM
A pair of .40 Glocks. One in each hand.

...

No disrespect for the long guns, but we're talking about close quarters combat and the less there is for an attacker to grab, the better.

...

No disrespect back at you, but if your HD situation has become a CQB situation you're already SOL.

(Remember -- it's all about layers of security... ;))

Logos
July 30, 2009, 06:40 PM
No, if you have intruders in your home in the dark of night......you ARE at close quarters combat.

Period.

So being prepared for it is wise.

Officers'Wife
July 30, 2009, 06:43 PM
Since I've never been in a home defense situation, I'm not really qualified to decide which is best. Should I be placed in that unfortunate situation, I'm sure that if my SAIGA 20 gauge loaded with #2 shot does not stop the attacker it should make him wonder if might have gotten the wrong house before the ten round magazine is empty.

HardShell
July 30, 2009, 06:46 PM
... So being prepared for it is wise.

Yes, it is... and yes, I am. ;)

Logos
July 30, 2009, 07:19 PM
Tell me about it when the bad guy grabs the barrel of your carbine and shoves it up your......oh my......I have to recalibrate my words.

;)

HardShell
July 30, 2009, 08:00 PM
Tell me about it when the bad guy grabs the barrel of your carbine and shoves it up your......oh my......I have to recalibrate my words.

;)

Again, if they get that close you're doing it wrong.

But who am I to argue with El Mariachi? :rolleyes:

t165
July 30, 2009, 08:05 PM
I'm certainly not going to get into a back and forth about which home defense weapon is the best. The one I have chose to use for a variety of reasons is pictured below.

Logos
July 30, 2009, 08:09 PM
Again, if they get that close you're doing it wrong.

But who am I to argue with El Mariachi?

Again, if you have intruders in your home in the night, they are already that close.

Maybe you're banking on slow, polite intruders who are respectful of your space, but you may get some who are fast and impolite. Bad things may happen very fast.

But you haven't really explained your position at all.

If your chosen method has advantages over mine, go ahead and state them.

That's discussion.

If you're just going to call me names, it's a waste of time.

t165
July 30, 2009, 08:14 PM
I also meant to say that with the Kel-Tec carbine at my shoulder the overall length from the tip of the weapon to my body is actually shorter that with a pistol/revolver extended in my arms in the aiming position. The Kel-Tec carbine is a little shorter than my extended arm. Still, to each their own. Any gun is better than nothing. :)

Logos
July 30, 2009, 08:14 PM
I'm certainly not going to get into a back and forth about which home defense weapon is the best. The one I have chose to use for a variety of reasons is pictured below.



I see a picture of a gun that shoots backwards?

So.....you give it to the perp and let him shoot himself?

That does put you in a better legal position.

:D

HardShell
July 30, 2009, 08:25 PM
... Maybe you're banking on slow, polite intruders who are respectful of your space, but you may get some who are fast and impolite. Bad things may happen very fast.

But you haven't really explained your position at all...

No, I am banking on the fact that my property and home were chosen with defesibility in mind, then enhanced further toward that end, then our home defense plans designed around that.

Without going into exhausting detail, no routine "intruder" is getting up to my house, let alone inside it, quickly and unannounced. Ain't happening.

Short of a well-equipped dynamic entry team determined to surprise me en mass, I am not concerned about anyone getting close enough, fast enough, to try to take anything out of my hands without getting ventilated, repeatedly, first. (And, FWIW, there are three identically-equipped HD handguns on the interior wall of that bedside wall-safe... but they are there only to back-up my carbine [and/or my wife's shotgun] and I really don't anticipate threir use. But they are there JIC.)

You believe that a handgun in each hand is your best HD choice (which immediately evoked the image of Banderas/El Mariachi in my mind, I meant nothing personal!). I refrained from criticizing your choice, not knowing anything at all about your living circumstances and level of training/experience. Since you did not similarly refrain, I have now explained my HD plans and preps somewhat. Trust me when I tell you that I have had sufficient training and experience to determine that a suppressed, lit AR suits my own HD needs best. (Doesn't mean in any way that it would practical, or even appropriate (let alone "best"), for you or anyone else, nor did I mean to imply such in any way.)

'Kay? :)

HardShell
July 30, 2009, 08:29 PM
I also meant to say that with the Kel-Tec carbine at my shoulder the overall length from the tip of the weapon to my body is actually shorter that with a pistol/revolver extended in my arms in the aiming position...

Most people who've ever taken a defensive carbine course have had this demonstrated to them.

"Old_Painless" who does the Box O' Truth has a great overhead picture of him and Clint Smith (IIRC) showing the comparative lengths/positions, but I can't put my hands on it right now.

Logos
July 30, 2009, 09:41 PM
In an in-home home defense situation you don't extend your pistol at arm's length unless you're asking for it to be grabbed.

A very short carbine is an improvement over some weapons that have been mentioned, but it is still nowhere near as maneuverable as a pistol. It simply cannot be pulled back from a grab like a pistol can. It simply cannot be turned around a corner anywhere near as easily as a pistol.

Two pistols give you an advantage that cannot be denied. If a big guy grabs your carbine and turns it to the side and rides you to the floor......you are most likely a DOA.

If a big guy manages to grab one of your pistols, rides you to the floor, you just put the other one to his head, blow his brains out and the fight is over. You are also in a position to take out his pals at that point, should they be gathering in the hallway behind him.

There is no scenario where a pistol in each hand doesn't offer huge tactical advantages for in-home defense. I can't say the same for the single carbine, unfortunately.

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 09:44 PM
t165-

Remember the old plastic "Polish Target Pistol" that was once sold at joke shops?:D

I know what the Kel-Tec is, but still...:)

Logos
July 30, 2009, 10:10 PM
Yes, if he'd given us a pic with the barrel unfolded it would have worked out a lot better.

:)

HardShell
July 30, 2009, 11:29 PM
... There is no scenario where a pistol in each hand doesn't offer huge tactical advantages for in-home defense. I can't say the same for the single carbine, unfortunately.

I guess that's why all the professional instructors are teaching the pistol-in-each-hand technique, while none advocate a defensive carbine for HD. :rolleyes:

I'm through arguing this with you here, no point -- be well.

The Annoyed Man
July 30, 2009, 11:30 PM
It seems to me that the best home defense weapon for most people is the one with which they are the most familiar, most qualified, and therefore with which they are the most confident. Like I posted earlier, I own pistols, AR carbines, AR target rifles, a shotgun, and some accurized bolt rifles. The shotgun and the carbines are potentially superior HD weapons to any of my pistols. But if I am most confident with the pistols, then which is the better HD weapon for me, in MY house — not yours, or his, or someone else's?

I love my carbines, and I can even shoot them respectably well.... ....from a bench! But I've never had any military or law enforcement training with a long gun, and I'm 56, out of shape, and seriously gimpy (back surgery, bad knee, etc.). The truth is that I will probably never spend the money to get trained up all tactical like, and most old dudes like me aren't going to either. I live in suburbia in a neighborhood of only average size lots, so neighboring houses are fairly close by. And while my wife has a carry permit and can shoot a pistol acceptably well, she's not a rifle shooter at all. Consequently, layers of defense are limited to my doors and windows, an alarm system, an aging blind and deaf dog, and whatever firearm I am most confident with in an actual situation. That happens to be my pistols - which is why one of those is on the dresser, instead of a carbine or shotgun.

That said, if I lived on a large piece of property where layered defense made practical sense and I had some maneuvering room, I would definitely prefer a stand-off weapon like a carbine or shotgun. It just doesn't seem to work for me in my personal situation.

SniperStraz
July 30, 2009, 11:46 PM
Logos I would never dream of questioning anyone's training or experience, and as this is still a free country (for now) You are free to use any legal weapon you'd like to defend your own home.
I won't go into details, but I have had a lot of training and experience where CQB is concerned.
I would just like to bring one thing to your attention. I have heard of many reasons why a handgun is better for HD than a long gun/carbine and the other way around as well.
Consider this: You wake up in the middle of the night, you're disoriented and half asleep. You mentioned that your home is fairly well lit at night so no need for a light. That's all good and well but what if you trip and fall down and have to catch yourself. Are you going to catch yourself with a loaded weapon pointed at your face? There are thousands more examples that I could come up with where not having a free hand would be a disaster.
I say this from experience. I've seen some of the best trained men in the world trip and fall in an urban combat setting.
Same goes for all the mall ninjas who have a strap on the front grip of their HD shotguns. Anyone who's ever been in one of these situations will tell you that having a free hand is invaluable.
If you wanna come out blazing with a couple of glocks I wish you all the best, but its just silly.
(sorry for the long post)

t165
July 31, 2009, 12:11 AM
Logos, ArmedBear...this is a liberals home defense weapon! :)




And if there are any Liberals reading this thread this is only a bit of humor!

Elm Creek Smith
July 31, 2009, 12:15 AM
I always have a handgun on me, so it all depends if it is the Taurus 85SSUL .38 SPL +P and/or the Smith & Wesson M13 loaded with 125 grain .357 Magnums.

The handguns allow me to blunt any initial home invasion and get to the long guns - Remington 870 and/or .45 Colt levergun.

ECS

Logos
July 31, 2009, 12:19 AM
what if you trip and fall down

That's the best you can do?

I might fall down? Gunfighting 101 says you land on your side and the side of your forearm and elbow on that side. You roll with it with the gun pointed toward the threat. You're still way ahead of the guy with one gun.

Please try to get serious. I MIGHT fall down carrying a carbine, too.

I MIGHT hyperventilate or have a heart attack, too.

If you're in a real fight in your own home in the middle of the night, two Glock .40s are more than twice as good as one carbine.

If you have any SERIOUS responses, I'd be happy to hear them.

larry_minn
July 31, 2009, 12:22 AM
IF they get into my bedroom before I am awake/alert I have lost. There are alarms, dogs, multiple doors/stairs/bedroom door. If every door was unlocked and a person RAN from first alarm point then maybe they could make it to bedroom before I am awake...
The AR is to hold the top of stairs for half hr till Police show up.

Logos
July 31, 2009, 12:25 AM
t165....

:D

That's exactly what came to mind as I looked at your first picture.

Just HAD to josh ya!

;)

montess85
July 31, 2009, 12:39 AM
My Mossberg 500 12 gauge... Its black and intimidating looking....Plus everyone knows what the action sounds like ......Even criminals.....Odds are you wont even have to use it ......Once you rack a round in the chamber the bad guy knows whats coming.......Also you dont have to worry about over penetration...

Logos
July 31, 2009, 12:43 AM
Consider this......when you make that noisy "racking" sound it not only pinpoints your location......it tells everybody what you intend to do........it may just terrify the BG into immediately sending 15 from his 9mm straight toward that sound as he exits to vanish into the night.

t165
July 31, 2009, 12:48 AM
Logos, I should have unfolded the thing first. I've used both handguns and shotguns/carbines to sweep buildings and search for suspects/burglers. I can see good in all of the weapons. I'm not going to call anyone wrong. The first rule of a gunfight is "bring a gun". Learning defensive handling, accurate shooting and become confident in your weapon/caliber of choice. Stay calm, breath properly and listen...listen...listen, for the bad guys to give their location away if you cannot see them in your home. And keep a phone nearby to get the troops headed your way if possible. Just my 2 cents.

tcsnake
July 31, 2009, 10:58 AM
+1 to RP88 on the mossy.

I just love the there cheap price too, if used correctly its all the gun anyone could ever need.

HexHead
July 31, 2009, 11:06 AM
My Garand....:D

http://www.firstshowing.net/img2/gran-torino-trailer-gun-img.jpg



Especially with the bayonet attached. :eek: :evil:

chieftain
July 31, 2009, 02:44 PM
Fred, it's more about my trust in my own ability to use a carbine under certain CQB conditions rather than the carbine itself.

You question your “possible” in-ability to use a carbine vs. the “KNOWN” poor effectiveness of any handgun cartridge. Regardless of how well you deploy it.


Under "normal" conditions (for appropriate values of normal), the carbine is preferred, even taking into account my lack of formal training.

Of course.


Lack of practice with the short carbine led me to exclude it in preference of the 4-inch .357 (7-shot) revolver.

Yet ironically the 357 will “over penetrate” more than any defensive load in your carbine. I simply don’t understand.


If I were going to go for a long gun, I'd probably use my AR carbine for reasons others have stated above, but there isn't a way for me to keep it handy in my bedroom. Too much other junk in the way. The pistol on the other hand sits on my dresser, right next to the bed, out of the way but easily accessible.

This is the either the best or worst excuse I have ever heard.

Handguns can be carried, stashed, and secured in ways that carbines can't.

If that was the reason or purpose of a home defense weapon that would be great. It isn’t. The purpose of a home defense weapon SHOULD BE to stop any criminal activity in your home as quickly as possible, with the weapons that are permitted.


CQB implies foreknowledge: you know you're going into battle, or at least that you're going somewhere "hot".

BINGO!

That is why long arms are called for. If in your own home, you don’t know your home well enough to know when someone is breaking in, then you need more work learning your own ground, not in weapons. Good rational reconnaissance is much more important. Know your immediate surroundings, the ground you live in and on. Reconnaissance doesn’t cost you a dime. Just time and work. In fact you have all the time until you homes defenses are penetrated.

Then when that happens and your home is attacked, you NEED to bring as much firepower as you can to that point of attack, and definitively stop the attack. This means a shoulder weapon. Cause if you have done your Recon properly you will know where the bad guys are and you should have your killing ground prepared for them. And if the bad guys don’t leave, you finish them in or on your killing ground.

This isn't just about ballistics, and your own quote from Dr. somebody says that VERY CLEARLY.

I've seen one too many of these "carbines are everything and if you use a .45 you will die!" posts. They're just plain stupid, because defense with a firearm is not just about ballistics.

You are right. Hopefully you do know what they are about. Most folks here don’t seem to. But when you do get to your selection of firearm, you will chose a shoulder weapon upon closing with your enemy. Why would you choose otherwise? Particularly if your “other” than ballistics work has been done and prepared for?


If one should get knocked out of my hand I can continue fire with the other.

Yup, but my question is, if the bad guy is close enough to knock number one from your hand, I would propose that he would do the same with the other.


No disrespect for the long guns, but they are hard to maneuver in close quarters and around corners and we're talking about close quarters combat and the less there is for an attacker to grab, the better.

Why are you maneuvering? Second, if you are that close to the bad guy when you do get your shot, it had better be as effective as possible. That indicates a shoulder weapon, for maximum effectiveness in CQB. The exact reason that virtually all agencies have gone to carbines from sub machine guns (pistol caliber weapons) for CQB. More effectiveness on target. Chew on that.


I can understand the short carbine theories, but you can't realistically have one in each hand, can you? No, you can't.

Nope, any more than I would deploy with a handgun in both hands. One shoulder weapon is still much more effective than two handguns. Even in my experienced hands.


It seems to me that the best home defense weapon for most people is the one with which they are the most familiar, most qualified, and therefore with which they are the most confident. Like I posted earlier, I own pistols, AR carbines, AR target rifles, a shotgun, and some accurized bolt rifles. The shotgun and the carbines are potentially superior HD weapons to any of my pistols. But if I am most confident with the pistols, then which is the better HD weapon for me, in MY house — not yours, or his, or someone else's?

Actually what is the “better” weapon doesn’t change because you want it to. Those shotguns and carbines are not potentially superior HD weapons, they are superior HD weapons. Your confidence not withstanding. Even in YOUR house, and mine or his, or someone else’s.

The facts don’t change. Regardless whether you want them to or not. Your belief in your ability with your pistols, is interesting.

If your ability to win a NASCAR race will not be improved because you can drive your F-150 pickup better than a NASCAR prepared race car. Both will work, but one ain’t ever going to be competitive.


I love my carbines, and I can even shoot them respectably well.... ....from a bench! But I've never had any military or law enforcement training with a long gun, and I'm 56, out of shape, and seriously gimpy (back surgery, bad knee, etc.).

How much LEO or military training do you have for you handguns? Regardless of your age or health.

Sounds to me your need for shoulder weapons is GREATER than a handgun. You need to take care of business BEFORE the bad guy can reach you. Yup, shoulder weapons.

This ain’t the movies or TV. You CAN NOT depend on you handgun “stopping” the bad guy, no matter who trained you. Particularly with a handgun. The potential of the bad guy NOT reaching you in a CQB situation is GREATLY reduced with a shoulder weapon, not a handgun.


The truth is that I will probably never spend the money to get trained up all tactical like, and most old dudes like me aren't going to either. I live in suburbia in a neighborhood of only average size lots, so neighboring houses are fairly close by. And while my wife has a carry permit and can shoot a pistol acceptably well, she's not a rifle shooter at all. Consequently, layers of defense are limited to my doors and windows, an alarm system, an aging blind and deaf dog, and whatever firearm I am most confident with in an actual situation. That happens to be my pistols - which is why one of those is on the dresser, instead of a carbine or shotgun.

Why do you use a handgun instead of a Taser or Pepperspray? Because they are known to fail, regularly. Well so do handguns, regularly. Less than the taser or pepperspray, but A LOT MORE OFTEN THAN A SHOULDER WEAPON.

One of the biggest benefits of shoulder weapons is they take A LOT LESS training or practice to use and/or stay proficient for the purposes of home defense, than any handgun. They are MUCH EASIER to deploy than any handgun.


That said, if I lived on a large piece of property where layered defense made practical sense and I had some maneuvering room, I would definitely prefer a stand-off weapon like a carbine or shotgun. It just doesn't seem to work for me in my person situation.

Interestingly enough, it is more critical to use a shoulder weapon when you can’t stand off than up close. It is about effectiveness on target, not convenience.

A handguns only advantage is convenience and ability to conceal, there is NO OTHER ADVANTAGE. None, zero, zilch.


If you're in a real fight in your own home in the middle of the night, two Glock .40s are more than twice as good as one carbine.

No they are not. They are two weapons that are equally weak effectively on target.


"Life is just as deadly as it looks. Fiction is more forgiving."
--Richard Thompson

It is America, where you are still free to get on line to prove Darwin’s theory correct.

Go figure.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

ArfinGreebly
July 31, 2009, 03:09 PM
Fred, it's more about my trust in my own ability to use a carbine under certain CQB conditions rather than the carbine itself.
You question your “possible” in-ability to use a carbine vs. the “KNOWN” poor effectiveness of any handgun cartridge. Regardless of how well you deploy it.

Under "normal" conditions (for appropriate values of normal), the carbine is preferred, even taking into account my lack of formal training.
Of course.

Lack of practice with the short carbine led me to exclude it in preference of the 4-inch .357 (7-shot) revolver.
Yet ironically the 357 will “over penetrate” more than any defensive load in your carbine. I simply don’t understand.

While I appreciate your superior understanding of my situation, my abilities, and the tools at my disposal, I will decline to explain further.

My skills and talent may not be up to a well-documented and unanimous reference standard. I work to improve them as I can.

Every so often, I get a chance to learn, up close and personal, from one self defense professional or another.

Outside of that, I receive all manner of well-qualified advice, and -- occasionally -- advice from different sources that don't conflict with one another.

In the end, I keep my own counsel, and do what I can within my self-imposed limitations.

Hope that doesn't offend your sensibilities.

Sheepdog1968
July 31, 2009, 03:26 PM
Mossberg 500
Affordable (heck, get two)
Reliable
Easy to use
Powerful
Multiple usages - birds, to clay, to deer/hogs, home defense

SHOTGUNJOE
July 31, 2009, 04:24 PM
4" XD 40 w/ Speer golds in nightstand drawer.
Winnie 12 ga. 1300 Defender w/ #4 buckshot sleeping under bed :eek:.

Logos
July 31, 2009, 04:34 PM
I can understand the short carbine theories, but you can't realistically have one in each hand, can you? No, you can't.


Nope, any more than I would deploy with a handgun in both hands. One shoulder weapon is still much more effective than two handguns. Even in my experienced hands.

That's fine for you, but in most experienced hands, two Glock .40s are far more than twice as effective as any single carbine at close quarters and I'll tell you why.

The long gun is simply neither designed nor suitable for close quarters IN-home defense. It can be too easily grabbed by that long barrel, and once that happens......your experienced hands, along with the rest of you--are toast.

In practical terms, at such short ranges, the carbine offers no real advantage, ballistically, in accuracy, or in ammo capacity, over the two .40 Glocks, but it does offer the DISadvantage of having no backup in case of a malfunction, the DISadvantage of being far more likely to be grabbed by the long barrel, and the DISadvantage of slower pointability and inferior maneuverability in narrow hallways and corners due to its length.

With the two .40s, if you are hit in one arm or the other and that arm is disabled, the other gun keeps firing without delay and if that gun goes empty you can switch to the remaining gun.

Not so with the carbine. At best you could awkwardly switch to shooting a two-hand gun with only the remaining good hand and that delay might be your last (this might be a good time to remember that the pump shotgun, at that point, would become so slow as to be almost useless when operated with one hand).

The inferiority of the long-gun in this comparison is profoundly obvious.

Not to say it's not a fine and worthy weapon, but in this particular application, it is out of its element. Of course, it can be used in this particular application (and with success, especially if it's one of the very short versions) but it is clearly inferior to the two-gun system proposed here.

Officers'Wife
July 31, 2009, 05:36 PM
The grabbed barrel of the carbine reminds me of the gun control argument than keeping a handgun is just an invitation to have it taken away and used against you.

I'm also reminded of the story my Gramps used to tell of how his training SGT told them if the bayonet got lodged in a spine just fire a round and the recoil would free it. One foolish unfortunate asked the SGT if he really thought the guy would have gotten the bayonet if there were rounds left in the rifle.

ArmedBear
July 31, 2009, 05:55 PM
The grabbed barrel of the carbine reminds me of the gun control argument than keeping a handgun is just an invitation to have it taken away and used against you.

Except that it isn't.

My home has some tight corners.

I can keep a pistol tucked close to me, and if I'm attacked, I can use the pistol to shoot an attacker at literally any distance. (No, I wouldn't go around with the pistol out in front of me like I was shooting bullseye.)

A carbine's muzzle has to be farther away than a pistol's. That means that a close-range attacker can get between the muzzle and me, and kill me.

An attacker's tactical advantage of surprise is MUCH greater if you have to get him a few feet away from you to shoot him, than if you can shoot him when he's at contact distance. So, it might take a couple of shots to incapacitate him (there's little evidence that a heavy .45 at contact range is not effective as a stopper, but say it takes two shots). I have the two or three shots, and I can use them easily.


Then when that happens and your home is attacked, you NEED to bring as much firepower as you can to that point of attack, and definitively stop the attack. This means a shoulder weapon. Cause if you have done your Recon properly you will know where the bad guys are and you should have your killing ground prepared for them. And if the bad guys don’t leave, you finish them in or on your killing ground.

My house isn't that big.

That leaves three possibilities.

1. Attackers never enter, since they hear dogs and realize people are home. Gun type is irrelevant.

2. Attackers are already bleeding from multiple bullet holes before they fall into the house. Whatever gun the bullets are from, it won't matter too much at that point. The perfect "kill zone" is wherever they're breaking in. There's no better place in my house to stop determined, armed attackers.

3. Attackers get in undetected, and I want a close-quarters gun. A REAL close-quarters gun, because my house isn't that big, and I wouldn't have been able to usher attackers into a kill zone. Therefore, I won't have the luxury of standing back and plugging them with a long gun.

I'll trust that you really are/were in the Corps, but your posts sound like you've played too many video games, not really considered defending a small house.

80% of successful gun-defense incidents in the US are with concealable HANDGUNS. 75% of these incidents occurred AT HOME.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html

You can bluster all you want about ending up dead if you use a handgun. But it has no basis in fact.

Dallas Jack
July 31, 2009, 06:00 PM
For late nights I use a six shot Mossberg 12 gauge with buckshot kept in the bedroom. It has a Streamlight Scorpion mounted to the magazine. Good for use in a dark house.

For house carry it is a M&P compact in either .40 S&W or .45 ACP.
Dallas Jack

chieftain
July 31, 2009, 06:32 PM
While I appreciate your superior understanding of my situation, my abilities, and the tools at my disposal, I will decline to explain further.

It ain’t about the situation, abilities and being from Idaho you have at least the same tools at your disposal as I do. It’s about the fight. I have always presumed that is what the HD weapon is for. Maybe I am mistaken.

No doubt I have been confused. But I understand your refusal for further explanation.


My skills and talent may not be up to a well-documented and unanimous reference standard. I work to improve them as I can.

Every so often, I get a chance to learn, up close and personal, from one self defense professional or another.

GREAT! Have any of those professional instructors advised a handgun over a shoulder weapon? If so, which ones?


Outside of that, I receive all manner of well-qualified advice, and -- occasionally -- advice from different sources that don't conflict with one another.

I don’t doubt it.


In the end, I keep my own counsel, and do what I can within my self-imposed limitations.

Understand about keeping your own counsel. As to self-imposed limitations I used to work with many young men with those same problems when I was a Drill Instructor. I truly do understand.


Hope that doesn't offend your sensibilities.

Nope, you would have to go an awful long ways to offend me.

Good luck.

Fred

Stupid should hurt

LRaccuracy
August 1, 2009, 08:35 PM
The best home defense gun will be the gun in my hand if and when I need it. If I could choose if that time ever came, would be a 12 gage with 00 buck.

LRaccuracy
August 1, 2009, 08:38 PM
The best home defense gun will be the gun in my hand if and when I need it. If I could choose if that time ever should come, would be a 12 gage with 00 buck.

Dr_2_B
August 1, 2009, 09:17 PM
prolly my ar15

searcher451
August 2, 2009, 04:57 PM
The best personal defense house gun you can own is the one that you never have to use. I've got a lot of them -- from a Walther P5 to a Walther PPK/S to a Savage 12-gauge double, all of which are readily available; glad to say that I haven't had to use any one of them.

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