BUG... really?


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PT1911
July 23, 2009, 02:00 AM
I am sitting here... reading post after post that speak of back up guns... I only use my Kel Tec, Ruger, MDE, or whatever other pocket gun as a back up gun... I am baffled by this... I guess I could understand if your primary gun jammed and you absolutely positively needed another gun, but then again, it is said with a bit of a negative tone... that gun is JUST a back up gun... seems to me your BUG, should you choose to carry one, would be more dependable than your primary, which begs the question, why are you carrying a gun that you cannot trust to fire every time you pull the trigger?

I hate the idea of a back up gun... I just dont see much of a use... I carry according to what I am wearing.. i may carry a full size 1911, mid sized steyr or a P3at if that is all I can conceal at the time and i would feel more than comfortable carrying any one of them... I dont know.. time and time again i see the phrase...only a back up gun.

depending on your specific situation, I can possibly see carrying more than one gun but designating one as primary and one as Back up? I just dont get it.. if I carried multiple guns they would all have my unconditional trust to work every time and to do so equally. The only factor that woud determine which I drew first would be proximity.. fastes draw wins.

I dont own anything that is "only a back up gun" and never will. If it is not fit to be a primary carry weapon, it is not fit to be carried.

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2RCO
July 23, 2009, 02:48 AM
PT I only carry my P3AT in the heat of the summer. I agree that a tiny .380 is better than a fullsize .45 if it's the only thing you are going to carry.

I see no problem with having a backup gun and think it's not a bad idea if clothing permits.

Dr. Fresh
July 23, 2009, 03:44 AM
When people say "only a BUG" they are usually referring to the smaller caliber, not reliability.

Most people who carry BUGs also have reliable primary sidearms. It's about preparing for the worst. Guns are mechanical objects and can break, even good ones.

PTK
July 23, 2009, 05:56 AM
I carry in a way either hand can reach my guns - I don't like the idea of my right side being pinned and now I can't draw my "one gun".

AK103K
July 23, 2009, 06:00 AM
I carry according to what I am wearing..
I'm just the opposite, I wear according to what I'm carrying, which is usually the same two guns each day, plus the P229's reload.

The BUG has other purposes too, and while the possibility of a problem with my main gun exists, its not the main reason I carry one. I expect both to be reliable and work accordingly. A second gun can be given to someone else when needed, and can also be quickly accessed by you at those times your main gun isnt readily accessible. Its also an alternative option for a faster reload.

possum
July 23, 2009, 06:46 AM
A second gun can be given to someone else when needed, and can also be quickly accessed by you at those times your main gun isnt readily accessible. Its also an alternative option for a faster reload.
exactly the 2 points that i was gonna make, but AK beat me too it.

if there is someone with me and they know what they are doing with a handgun you better believe that i am gonna square them away if things go bad.

THE DARK KNIGHT
July 23, 2009, 06:55 AM
Sorry, but if you need to carry TWO guns on you, you're somewhere you don't belong in the first place.

The only people I can see needing a back up gun are police/military.

PTK
July 23, 2009, 06:59 AM
Sorry, but if you need to carry one gun on you, you're somewhere you don't belong in the first place.

The only people I can see needing a gun are police/military.

I just barely changed your argument. See the problem?

GojuBrian
July 23, 2009, 07:02 AM
How many knives should we carry? Flashlights? OC Sprays? Etc.... :rolleyes:

THE DARK KNIGHT
July 23, 2009, 07:03 AM
One gun makes perfect sense. Stuff happens. Even a regular visit to the corner store on a sunday afternoon could potentialy turn into something bad. But think about it, if you're in a situation where you're going to pump out 8-15 rounds, reload and still need more, come on. Situational Awareness? Target Practice? Common Sense?

I mean by all means, if you need two guns to feel safe, go for it. But one gun suits me just fine anywhere outside of a war zone.

Lew
July 23, 2009, 07:25 AM
How many knives should we carry? Flashlights? OC Sprays? Etc....

As many as you feel like, I would think. Personal choice.

mcdonl
July 23, 2009, 07:43 AM
I ride a motorcycle without a helmet, I drink scotch and smoke the occasional cigar, I hunt without hearing protection and I only cary one gun. I must be danger dan.

These are all calculated risks... not knowing the math, I would say that in MY PERSONAL SITUATION living in Southern Maine, one gun should cover all of my needs.

CoRoMo
July 23, 2009, 09:28 AM
Gun components fail and break. When it happens, it is most always unexpected.
If that happens when you are defending your life, you'll instantly see all the wisdom in a backup gun.

KenWP
July 23, 2009, 09:34 AM
If I needed a back up gun it would need to be bigger then what I used before becasue if I was in a situation where it would be needed it was becasue the other one wasn't big enough.

TheProf
July 23, 2009, 09:48 AM
Sorry, but if you need to carry TWO guns on you, you're somewhere you don't belong in the first place.

The only people I can see needing a back up gun are police/military.



What???? It makes perfect sense to carry TWO guns...if possible!!!

Before I digress...to answer the OP...

1. BUG usually refer to a second gun that is of smaller size (not necessarily smaller caliber) than the primary gun. This is usually done for the sake of concealment. Since a bigger size gun (longer barrel) generally has better performance than the smaller gun (all things being equal)...the person calls the bigger gun his "primary", that is, he would reach for that one first.


2. Some carry guns that are small to begin with. In that case, their primary and BUG may be two of the same guns. (Ex. A person carrying TWO Ruger LCPs....one of each front pocket.)

3. A BUG should be just as reliable as the primary gun. My friend carries a revolver as his BUG to his primary semi-auto. (I would argue, since I am biased for revolvers, that his BUG is more reliable than his primary in theory that is. But in practice they are probably the same.)

4. Now to answer the comment on why carry two guns...and that only cops should ever need a second gun... Two guns allow faster reload..."New York Reload" = simply pull the other gun out when you run out of ammo with the first gun. Second, you have the option of having a spare gun, should your primary malfunction. Third, you can arm another person should the need arise.

And finally, no one knows when danger will strike. The same criminal that crosses the paths of police officers also cross paths with the general public. You just never know...

5. Finally, guns to men are like purses to women. (Just ask any woman if she really needs another purse!) The difference is, men can carry two guns without attracting attention (if concealed). Women in all 50 states are allowed to open carry their purses. And it just doesn't look right to carry two purses. So...twice the fun for men.

(For any women who carry guns...the above was intended as a joke...bless your hearts ...you really have it better than men... You can carry two guns AND your purse!!!!)

MagnumDweeb
July 23, 2009, 09:49 AM
I know to some this might seem paranoid, but when the nearby Walmart(I was at it earlier in day) has a gunmen shoot it out with the police, and the general atmosphere of gun violence has traversed into whack jobs going off and shooting into masses of people I carry two guns.

I sometimes only carry a snub .357 in each pocket when that is all my wardrobe for the day allows. But when I'm wearing a heavy shirt or denim shirt I carry a snub .357 for easy concealed carry in my pocket that sits behind my wallet "yes mister mugger let me get my wallet for you" and I come up shooting, and then I carry either a Ruger P345 .45 ACP 8+1 and one extra mag reload, or a Glock 20 10mm with an extra magazine(I like shooting the Glock 20 more but I enjoy carry the P345 more for some odd reason) in a shoulder holster.

The Ruger or Glock are what I deem to be the SHTF firearm where there is a whack job running about shooting at people, there is a knife wielding whacko bouncing about swinging his blade, or I'm in a self-defense situation that allows me to draw from my shoulder holster more easily than my pocket.

Yeah it's a bit off, but nowadays you never know. If the SHTF and then you got two gangbanger scum who have decided to turn local mall into a shootout, I want the Glock 20 or P345 over just having snub. The snub .357 Rossi 462 is great for up close and personal (point pressed against the body out to seven yards) but if you ever have to reach out and touch somebody(twenty or more yards) I would think you want something more substantial. But that's me and maybe I'm just a tad paranoid in a healthy fashion.

Avenger29
July 23, 2009, 09:49 AM
Sorry, but if you need to carry TWO guns on you, you're somewhere you don't belong in the first place.

The only people I can see needing a back up gun are police/military.

Because Lord Knows, a mere civilian doesn't need something else should his primary catastrophically fail, he can't get to it, or it snags bad in the draw...


I'll carry as many guns as I want, and I'll carry them wherever legal, no matter how "safe" I feel or not. I don't decide how many heaters I'm going to need based on where I'm going.

jackstinson
July 23, 2009, 10:07 AM
If the SHTF and then you got two gangbanger scum who have decided to turn local mall into a shootout, I want the Glock 20 or P345 over just having snub.
I'd want to make my way to and through the nearest exit. I seriously doubt it would take three guns for me to get there. ;)
I don't carry a firearm to play policeman, nor mall ninja.

but if you ever have to reach out and touch somebody(twenty or more yards) I would think you want something more substantial
Twenty or more yards? If I have twenty or more yards between me and my attacker, I'm not hanging around to shoot it out. Especially with a hand gun.
By law I have a duty to at least try making a strategic retreat beyond 21 FEET (not 21 yards). "Discretion is the better part of valor" and all that. :D

HarleyFixer
July 23, 2009, 10:18 AM
I didn't even carry a B/U gun in COMBAT much less in real life.

scottishclaymore
July 23, 2009, 10:21 AM
Twenty or more yards? If I have twenty or more yards between me and my attacker, I'm not hanging around to shoot it out. Especially with a hand gun.
By law I have a duty to at least try making a strategic retreat beyond 21 FEET (not 21 yards). "Discretion is the better part of valor" and all that.

The possible exception to this would be if someone else's life is at risk and you are intervening to save them. In the state where I live, that is legal, though not necessary. While I can understand others who feel differently, one of the reasons I carry a gun is to help look after my neighbors, friends, and anybody else who needs assistance. I'm not a vigilante or looking to make myself a hero, but I also know I'd feel awfully bad if I ran for it to save my own hide instead of taking a risk to help somebody else. But that is just the person that I am and the way I was raised.

Back on-topic, I really don't see any reason you shouldn't carry two guns -- even three or four if you want (my Dad routinely carries three). None of us will be at your gunfight. Carry what you want.

To the OP, my understanding of the backup gun is that it is not so much a reliability thing as it is an accessibility thing. For instance, carrying a J-frame in each pocket. If your strong hand is injured when hostilities commence, you can still get to something with your other hand. That sort of thing.

Avenger29
July 23, 2009, 10:39 AM
The possible exception to this would be if someone else's life is at risk and you are intervening to save them. In the state where I live, that is legal, though not necessary. While I can understand others who feel differently, one of the reasons I carry a gun is to help look after my neighbors, friends, and anybody else who needs assistance. I'm not a vigilante or looking to make myself a hero, but I also know I'd feel awfully bad if I ran for it to save my own hide instead of taking a risk to help somebody else. But that is just the person that I am and the way I was raised.

I'm the exact same way.

B yond
July 23, 2009, 10:40 AM
I only carry a BUG when I know I may have trouble accessing my primary. I'lll carry a small BUG crossdraw when carrying my primary in a versipack (someone may try to grab it, preventing me from accessing my primary) or when carrying my primary OWB at 4:00 and driving for long periods (if I need a gun NOW it's faster to get to than the primary pinned between my right butt cheek, seatbelt buckle, seat, and console.

Other than that I carry a spare mag instead of a BUG and don't feel undergunned at all.

lions
July 23, 2009, 11:20 AM
But think about it, if you're in a situation where you're going to pump out 8-15 rounds, reload and still need more, come on.

Who says you are going to get to shoot all 8-15 rounds before something breaks? One of the many valid reasons for a BUG presented here is in case your primary fails. What if you fire one round and then your primary has a catastrophic failure? In the end you may have only fired 2-3 rounds but you had to use 2 guns to do it.

I know it sounds unlikely but it is also unlikely that most of us will ever even need 1 gun. It isn't about the odds, it is about the stakes.

I don't carry a BUG but I can see the possible benefits in doing so.

Avenger29
July 23, 2009, 11:27 AM
I know it sounds unlikely but it is also unlikely that most of us will ever even need 1 gun. It isn't about the odds, it is about the stakes.

Another word about odds. If you are in situation where you need your gun, then the odds are shot anyway and Murphy is likely going to have you on his supper plate. It's the perfect time for a gun to fail or for any other number of situations to occur where you'd really, really, really like to have a good BUG.

Girodin
July 23, 2009, 12:15 PM
Sorry, but if you need to carry TWO guns on you, you're somewhere you don't belong in the first place.

Because nothing bad has ever happened in normally safe and peaceful areas right? I think of the some of the shooting rampages or robberies that have happened in areas that one would not consider unsafe normally. And no gun has ever failed at the most inopportune time either.

As the saying goes two is one, one is none.

It may be unlikely that one will ever need a BUG. That said it is very very unlikely that one will ever need their primary, particularly if you are aware of your surroundings and try to avoid trouble. Many people make the claim that if you need to carry a gun you are somewhere you don't belong in the first place. I think that is BS too.

I doubt I'll ever need a BUG, or even my primary for that reason. A second pistol has many tactical advantages and it is easy enough to carry a small pocket gun that I don't consider it a burden to carry a BUG either.

BushyGuy
July 23, 2009, 12:26 PM
you dont only carrry a BUG gun if your primary fails you can also use your BUG gun cuz its alot quicker then having to reload your primary gun all you have to do is pull out the BUG and start firing when your primary gun runs out of bullets. it alot quicker then unloadin a empty mag and grabbing a full one and put it in the gun and lock the breech. vs pull out BUG and fire? which is quicker? BUG .

Superlite27
July 23, 2009, 03:24 PM
"Two is one and one is none."

I have a very (very, very) accurate and very (very, very) reliable STI 1911 I carry as a primary.

I also have a J-frame in an ankle holster.

The J-frame is nothing more that a BUG. Never will be.

But if I'm ever tackled, and end up wrestling over my primary, I bet it sure will come in handy because my life doesn't depend on winning the wrestling match, it depends only on if I can keep one gun pointed elsewhere while "Mr. Surprise" helps me out.

MagnumDweeb
July 23, 2009, 03:34 PM
I wouldn't carry three guns, my point on the SHTF was meant more as I wasn't left with a choicee. If bullets are flying and there is good solid cover I'm laying behind it first and then trying to identify the threat and then the means of safe escape. But you aren't always left a safe escape. And at twenty yards or more the BG can still hit you with a lucky shot. BGs have a tendency of ducking for cover when bullets start flying at them. If they don't duck for cover then they'll likely get hit.

I don't care if the BGs are fifty yards away, if there is a hail of lead getting put out there I don't want to be a running target. I want to be a target the BGs are running from, behind good cover able to take aimed shots. I think there was an article in "Combat Handguns" dealing with previous cases where do-gooders got themselves killed trying to do the right thing. The author came to the point that in all likelihood he'd settle for only detaining the gunmen by returning fire and isolating him from harming others. If you got whackos emptying magazines into folks who have done nothing wrong, I'd like to think I'd at the very least buy those folks a few seconds to escape as I fired on the gunmen from good cover with a clear path of retreat. But that's just me. A few seconds could mean a few lives.

bigmike45
July 23, 2009, 03:44 PM
By The Dark Knight-Sorry, but if you need to carry TWO guns on you, you're somewhere you don't belong in the first place.

You know 15-20 years ago this might have been a valid statement, but we do not live in that world anymore. I have walked through malls where gangs are strolling through, albeit being scrutinized by unarmed security in most cases. Should a situation arise where I would have to use my firearm to defend myself, I would cherish having a BUG for that purpose if need be, or if after a shot or two from my primary, the gun jammed or was hit by a bad guy bullet putting it out of commission, again I would want a BUG to at least try to use to escape the situation. Something else I have read several times is, it has been proven that it is easier and faster to draw your BUG and use it instead of trying to reload the primary weapon. I have tried it and most times I can draw my BUG faster than I can eject an empty mag and insert another, then cycle the slide and bring the weapon back on target.

I am guessing, Dark Knight, that you dont feel the need to carry a spare tire in your car or a set of jumper cables & flashlight. Good luck if & when the chips go down......me I will keep my BUG!

george29
July 23, 2009, 08:52 PM
DK, why carry at all? According to your philosophy even one is too much to carry unless one goes into harms way!

I don't go into harms way but I find it crosses my path often enough. At night, I have a minimum of two, usually 3. The biggest (M&P) stays in the car, the 642 and NAA in my pockets.

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/avisamuel/DSC01457.jpg


http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l15/avisamuel/NAA22M.jpg

Avenger29
July 23, 2009, 09:19 PM
Tell me about that shoulder holster setup, george29.

PT1911
July 24, 2009, 01:01 AM
I understand many of the situations posted and agree with carrying multiple weapons if you feel your situation requires or if it makes you feel more comfortable and capable... I just hate to hear "back up gun" placed on a gun in an inferior way. as I said originally, I cannot imagine carrying any gun that I wouldnt consider to be my primary should the situation require... in fact, as some of you have pointed out, the back up should be even more reliable than the primary seeing as it is the "last resort"

as far as a reload substitute... , I am not sure about that argument. With the exception of revolvers without moons or speed loaders, I dont think you are saving much if any time by dropping your first gun, then pulling your second from your ankle, pocket, IWB or where ever it is you keep it... seems a mag could be dropped, popped in, and ready to go just as quickly.

not to mention.... both methods would take repetitive training and I dont feel like dropping my 1911's on the ground...;)

engineer88
July 24, 2009, 02:00 AM
As some have mentioned, it is called a BUG, but maybe alternative gun would be a better term. For me personally after having carried both ways, I decided that I would rather have a lightweight gun that weighs about the same or less than a spare mag instead of a spare mag.

For instance a 13 round Glock 21 mag weighs significantly more then my fully loaded Keltec P3AT or P32. Yes it is a smaller caliber and less rounds but here is where the importance comes in. As they say in real estate, location, location location. Having a gun accessible to the left hand side is one good thing if your right is tied up in a struggle, primary malfunctions, hand has been shot (saw that on a couple of TV shows at least) or has been chopped off with a samurai sword. :neener:

Also when sitting down pocket carry among other forms of carry are almost guaranteed inaccessible (think drive-up atm late at night), or if carrying a revolver as primary if you will, I can tell you I can grab a Keltec from a pocket much faster then working my magic with speed strips (not to mention a few more rounds).

Some other side benefits would be arming your significant other or well-trusted friend, if you dropped primary, shot it dry, or heck in SHTF situations it may give you another caliber that you can find ammo for (think Resident Evil).

I hope I never use my primary, let alone both, but I keep a box in the trunk with an absolute bare minimum of at least one magazine or speed strip of everything I might carry on a day to day basis just in case. However if I make it to the car I hope to drive away and reload later, LOL.

So yes, in my opinion an "alternate gun" is a great thing! :D

WC145
July 24, 2009, 10:15 AM
I always carry a BUG on duty. I seldom carry two guns off duty.
However, on or off duty, I always have a spare handgun in my vehicle.

mgregg85
July 24, 2009, 03:28 PM
I carry a P3AT and sometimes I also carry an XD45 along with it. My P3AT may sometimes be carried as a BUG but it is not "just a BUG", it works just fine on its own.

I would never carry a pistol that I felt was unreliable.

rhoggman
July 24, 2009, 03:36 PM
I'm not Steven Segall.... so I can accept having a BUG to make up for my lack of hollywood kung-fu skills.

I can think of so many uses for a BUG deep concealed that it is not even funny. I'm really not going to go into those scenarios becuase they are ridiculous and will probably never happen.

That being said.... Proper security and defense requires that you be imaginative and think of every possible situation.

Hope you never end up as the only hostage with a p3at strapped to your ankle.

AK103K
July 24, 2009, 04:23 PM
Any manner of things we carry and wear are in essence back up weapons, but I'm betting most dont have a clue to or even considered their alternate uses.

How many carry a super duper tactical pocket knife and have no idea what to do with it, other than to flip it open in a cool manner in front of their friends?

I suppose that there are two schools of thought here, those that take things a little more serious, and those that dont.

Those that do tend to be those who always carry the same things, religiously, day in and day out, and probably look like Brett Maverick trying to get into a card game when they empty their pockets. They more likely have other skills that complement too.

Those that dont, seem to be casual carriers, who seem to treat their weapons as fashion accessories, having a certain gun and holster to go with a certain manner of dress or occasion, and often complain about size and weight, and how inconvenient to their lifestyles certain things are.

I think that many havent even considered what they will do if they need their gun, and for some reason, it becomes disabled or tied up by an advesary, or they cant get to it quick enough. I know this is a gun board, and discussions are mostly about "guns", but you do have an alternate plan and or skill set to help out if you need to do something else just to get your gun up and running, right? Murphy is a miserable SOB, and seems to take great delight at others miseries and lack of planning.

Now, does this BUG print too much in these jeans, or do I need a good pocket holster? :neener:

http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b7d700b3127ccec27fbd9c595800000010O00CYuWbdo5bsQe3nwk/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

george29
July 24, 2009, 06:14 PM
Avenger29 Tell me about that shoulder holster setup, george29.


The shoulder holster is a genuine brand new surplus USN shoulder holster for 4" S&W Model 10 with 13 (bad luck?) bullet loops sown to shoulder strap. I got it from my friend that does the gun show circuits around OK, TX, MS & AK. You can order one at http://www.charleyssurplus.com/holster.htm
The other strap I slipped a Jay-Pee (found it in one of those rummage boxes one always finds in big gun stores) 12 round belt loop for .38/.357
Altogether, my M&P with 6 in the chamber & 25 more on loops. My 642 goes with 2 Bianchi speed strips on me and two more in the car, that's 29 more .38 +P, altogether 60rounds of .38 +P with me on a normal day, but as I said, the M&P almost always stays in the car.

For me and my fat gut, this is the best set up for me, conceals well and is OK as far as comfort but eventually I will need to get wider softer straps if I want to wear it longer as it can chaff.

sohcgt2
July 24, 2009, 09:59 PM
Sorry, but if you need to carry TWO guns on you, you're somewhere you don't belong in the first place.

I agree with this.

I have walked through malls where gangs are strolling through, albeit being scrutinized by unarmed security in most cases.

Your statement drives the point home. I am, however, still a "Boy Scout" and as such I will "be prepared" for the times when I might mistakenly take a wrong turn and end up somewhere I'd rather not be. The OP inquiry of "just a BUG" in my case means it isn't a fully engraved BBQ gun, it's just a 2" 5 shot .357 revolver in stainless steel. Completely reliable, but no frills.

mljdeckard
July 24, 2009, 10:19 PM
I won't mock someone for carrying two guns. Saying it's silly to carry two, or that you are paranoid for carrying two is just as disingenuous as the antis telling us we are paranoid for carrying one. We live in a world where bad things happen. If you are using your carry gun, it's because a combination of bad things have all decided to happen at once. If one bad thing can happen (you are in a position where you need to use deadly force) then it is not only possible, it is LIKELY that another bad thing is about to happen. (Your gun gets knocked out of your hand, you only have one hand, you can't reach it, it malfunctions, etc.) Being better prepared is not something you should be mocked for.

Having said that, I don't have a BUG and don't have any near-term plans to get one. For me, it's a question of practicality. I think that most of the advantage of carrying comes from having a gun in the first place. The law of diminishing returns comes in very quickly when you talking about carrying a second one. When I am in college classes (I'm on a ......extended intermittent plan,) I have books, laptop, extra pair of glasses, cell phone, pistol, extra mags, knife, and flashlight. When it's cold, throw in a hoodie and a jacket. ANOTHER gun is not likely to benefit me in any way if I have to reach around everything to get it at all.

There is also the consideration of liability. I use the military definition of secure for firearms handling. It is on your person or within line-of sight at all times. All weapons and their extras. If I have TWO guns, this means, TWO sets of extra mags, holsters, etc that can not only get lost or misplaced, I also have to make sure they are under my absolute control at all times. With kids around me all of the time, I don't see it is worth the extra risk.

psyopspec
July 24, 2009, 10:36 PM
PT1911, I think you may be reading into the BUG discussions that pop up from time to time. You're thread has dozens of posts now, and not one person has even tried to argue that a back up gun is or should be less reliable than any other gun on which a person would rely for defense of self or others. My BUG isn't more or less reliable than my primary, but both are reliable enough - they've never failed. If either did, that gun would not be used in a defensive role until fixed and wrung out for several trouble-free range sessions. While I won't speak for others, I will say that the idea you present in your OP isn't one I've seen prominently featured as a theory for defensive gunning.

Those of you who dislike the idea of carrying two guns, simply don't do it. No reason to derail someone else's thread over it.

kanewpadle
July 25, 2009, 12:49 AM
Some of the posts against a BUG only goes to show how out of touch some people are.

How about the recent story of the open carry hero that shot the bad guy after the bad guy shot the storekeeper? The hero got lucky plain and simple. He had only five rounds and his gun broke.

A NY reload is faster than a regular reload which most people never practice anyway. And if you've paid attention to recent trends whether police or civilian, the bad guys are shooting first and expending more rounds.

A gun is a man made object which isn't perfect. Even the most expensive firearm can fail at any time. Carrying a BUG has nothing to do with paranoia, machoism or the like. It is simply being prepared. The same as carrying a spare tire.

Think about it seriously. While us civilians don't have the obligation to chase bad guys, that doesn't mean that they wont chase us. Is doesn't mean that we can't be cornered in our home or on the street by multiple assailants. The same aweful things can happen to us the same as they could happen to cops. We don't have body armor. No long gun. No radio to call for backup. No dog. No police car. So if you can agree with what I just said, why would you not carry a BUG? AND a reload for at least one of those guns. How many cops have been shot with their own guns? Most of those didn't have a BUG and should have.

Quite simply, most people don't want to be bothered by carrying a second gun. It takes conviction and dedication.

One gun isn't enough. Not these days.

Claude Clay
July 25, 2009, 01:30 AM
Sorry, but if you need to carry TWO guns on you, you're somewhere you don't belong in the first place.

i have a 642 in my left coat or vest pocket. my primeary in IWB at 4 oclock. i put my car keys in left pocket [ there is a custom divider--nothing touches the gun] punk points a knife at me from 10 feet away and says "give me the keys".
make any sense to you know to have two guns?
he saw me put the keys in that pocket--
he expects me to reach into that pocket--

he didn't expect what happend to him next

JCisHe
July 25, 2009, 03:16 AM
I just read a story about a guy in the legal section who had two guns, some loose ammo, and a loaded high-cap mag in the car and was caught with it all after someone called the police on him and his girlfriend fighting for a domestic dispute.

Honestly, I can understand how the officers got off on the wrong foot, even though what they did was illegal (they illegally detained him/placed him under arrest); I think having multiple weapons with lots of ammo looks shady.

It isn't illegal but having a PP weapon and then a BUG and then some extra ammo for both would seem a little overkill. I think I agree with the the OP but for different reasons. Carrying multiple firearms isn't such a good idea and the guy in the legal section nailed the reason why. TROUBLE. It looks like that person is out to go to war instead of just protect themselves. At least, I can understand why an officer might construe it that way.

AK103K
July 25, 2009, 07:43 AM
Carrying multiple firearms isn't such a good idea and the guy in the legal section nailed the reason why. TROUBLE.
So at what point is the number of guns and round count acceptable? We really dont need to start down that road.

It looks like that person is out to go to war instead of just protect themselves.
Whats the difference?

psyopspec
July 25, 2009, 10:53 AM
I just read a story about a guy in the legal section who had two guns, some loose ammo, and a loaded high-cap mag in the car and was caught with it all after someone called the police on him and his girlfriend fighting for a domestic dispute.

And the idea that a BUG should be more/less/equally reliable to the primary applies to that case how?

nelson133
July 25, 2009, 10:56 AM
I'm more prone to listen to the experts than some guy on the internet and I defy anyone to come up with a qualified trainer that would not recommend a back up gun.

JCisHe
July 25, 2009, 03:24 PM
I understand, I'm just saying we know that cops aren't exactly objective and act according to the letter of the law so being prudent, appearing prudent, and having "enough" I think is the best way to stave off misunderstandings.

A BUG may or may not be tactically sound, in fact, it probably is, but I'm sure a cop has to think, in his pessimism, that the person who is armed to teeth is out for trouble over just for PP.

Thanks my .02 anyway.

Macchina
July 25, 2009, 03:26 PM
I agree. If you want to carry two guns, go for it. I don't ever feel the need to carry two guns, and only carry one when I am going some place where I feel I may need it (hiking, downtown, long walks, night, etc.). To me, the probability of having to use my primary CCW is extremely low, but there is a chance I may need it someday. The chances of my extremely reliable P239 failing is so remote that I might as well also carry a lightning rod as well to prevent attacks from the weather. I can understand an officer or infantry man having backups because of the likelyhood of using his primary, but a normal citizen is getting a little paranoid. I would also agree with the argument that a person carrying multiple guns in a SD defense situation would most likely be painted as somebody looking for a fight by a prosecutor.

On another note, if you enjoy carrying firearms (as some people do), then that is whole different story.

JCisHe
July 25, 2009, 05:54 PM
"I would also agree with the argument that a person carrying multiple guns in a SD defense situation would most likely be painted as somebody looking for a fight by a prosecutor."

Michael my exact sentiments only add by some police officers as well (evidenced by the guy on the legal blogs encounter)...

RockyTop
July 25, 2009, 10:18 PM
For all I care, people can carry a dozen guns if they want. But realistically, I don't know why the average citizen would need to carry more than one.

The odds the average person will need to use one gun for self defense is extremely low and most won't ever need to use one for this purpose. In the rare instance you would need to use your gun in self defense, the odds it'd malfunction would also be low. So in the rare instance you'd need to use a gun in self defense and then top that with the rare instance it'd malfunction, the odds you'd then have time to pull out your BUG and defend yourself would be rather low.

But if you find yourself in the rare instance of needing to defend yourself with a gun, and it then malfunctioning, and you then have time to pull out and fire your BUG, then more power to you.

Again, I have no problem with it, I just don't find it necessary or practical. Then again, I don't care around 2 or 3 spare tires with me either. The rare instance I may need one, I have it. If I need more than 1 then I'm pretty much screwed anyways.

george29
July 25, 2009, 11:03 PM
Like I said, the odds of needing one are so low why carry at all? If one gun is not being paranoid then why is two or three guns paranoid? Why is it always paranoia when it is about guns but not when speaking about AED units in public buildings, spare tires on cars, fire extinguishers on commercial vehicles, spare glasses, people that carry two or three pens in their pockets, 3 reflective triangles instead of two, people that own more than one car. Why own more than one drill, hammer, screwdriver? Why do some people have a spare cell phone? It's only when we talk about guns that all of a sudden the word paranoia gets bandied about. As a former LEO, I have needed my BUG when my primary spilled out of it's holster as I tripped and landed at the feet of the suspects I had stopped, luckily for me I was with a partner that day and also they were disinclined to touch my primary. Can that happen to someone as a mere citizen? I think so! I'm getting older, less stable on my feet, I couldn't give a rat's a$$ what a cop thinks about me, I'm also not worried about the DA or prosecuter, I have faced all these three as a citizen and won (not a shooting, a domestic charge). I stuck to the facts and made sure the prosecuter stuck to the facts (I represented myself - successfully I might add). My primary is usually my 642 because it is always with me outside where my M&P is too big to go, so it stays in the car. The NAA .22 is also always with me due to it's size and comfort it hooks right into my underwear as I walk around the house. Anything mechanical can and will break, sometimes at the worst of times. You guys that walk with only one gun but carry a spare in your vehicle are basically saying, I may get a flat but I won't need my gun so the comfort I get from this ONE gun is fine for me. I don't fault you one bit. OTOH, I have been accosted by gang members right next to my home, I have been followed, I have had roadragers cross my path and carloads of gangbangers drive next to me. The town I live in has very fast very good response, and the cops that I have met are for the most part pro 2A. But I want that edge of knowing that I may not be able to reload my 642 fast enough, that my 642 or my M&P may jam, it happens! I would appreciate if some of you using or infering the word paranoia or paranoid would reconsider, it's one of those labels that certain people stick unto others when they feel that they need an edge to the argument. If I had a dime for every cheating spouse that told their SO that they were paranoid when they were (rightfully) accussing the other of cheating, I would be rich. It is usually a word used to demean others when the user is not a professional (psychologist/psychiatrist).

wickedsprint
July 26, 2009, 10:15 AM
I think carrying two guns is a little ridiculous but I'll never vote to take that right away from you nor think less of you for doing so..I'll just rank you as the overly cautious type.

I would wonder if you always keep a spare helmet on your motorcycle..or a spare airbag in your car..or two spare tires though...but guns are cool..we like our guns and some of us like carrying them. More power to ya.

Glockman17366
July 26, 2009, 12:10 PM
I carry a Ruger LCP as a BUG. Fits nice in a vest pocket.
I never expect my Glock to fail, but it could happen. And, when I carry a snubby revolver (which is my most frequent carry gun), a "New York" reload isn't a bad thing to have. To me, carrying a BUG is no different then carrying a spare magazine or speedloader. The BUG may be faster to present.
Optimally, both the primary carry gun and the BUG would be the same caliber, but that's not always possible.

oak1971
July 26, 2009, 12:25 PM
2 guns? that's nothing, watch this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdRE-CuBms4

JCisHe
July 26, 2009, 09:02 PM
Hahaa...

76shuvlinoff
July 26, 2009, 09:17 PM
When I took the Farnum course I believe the gentleman was carrying 3 guns plus a large folding knife ..... and I assume those were just what I was allowed to see.

CZ223
July 27, 2009, 09:54 AM
pretty much the same thing George29 said, only he said it better. I would be willing to bet that everyone here knows someone that they hang around with who is known as the "go to guy". He is the guy you go to when you need something that you or some else forgot to bring. He is the guy who brings the screwgun and screws, duct tape, rope, saw, extension cords, etc. along on the camping trip. He also brings two of everything he can "just in case". He is not paranoid. He is handy to have around when something goes wrong.

For the most part, I am that guy. I am also a guy that never really saw the need for a second gun. Now that I own an LCP that can be carried as easily as my cell phone, I see no reason not to carry two. In the same way that I never expect to use my primary, I hope not to need my secondary, but you never know do you.

jbrown50
July 27, 2009, 01:15 PM
Majority of the time I carry only one gun, a Kahr PM9. It's enough for me to keep that one gun properly concealed from the paranoid anti's that i'm frequently around. On rare occasions though i've experimented with carrying two PM9s, two j-frames, two Glock 27s or any combination of the aforementioned guns. A few times i've also experimented with carrying three guns.

I don't love guns nor do I hate them obviously. They're tools to be used for exercising a God given right.

Modern society has attached such an evil stigma to guns that owning/carrying multiple or, to some people, even just one gun means you're either paranoid or just out looking for trouble.

A backup gun and even a third gun offers you a tactical advantage that can only be appreciated during the rare time that your life or the lives of other innocents are threatened. Guns are mechanical devices that can malfunction even under ideal conditions. I've lost count of how many bad magazines i've had to fix or replace over the years. Criminals are becoming more bolden, more heavily armed, and are operating more often in packs nowadays. Recently in this area five suspects attempted to rob an off duty plain clothes Secret Service Officer of his motorcycle. A Dominos Pizza delivery person was recently robbed by five armed suspects. There have been numerous carjackings, robberies and home invasions done by multiple armed suspects and the trend is becoming more of a modus operandi for criminals nowadays. There have been many instances of bullet sponges either boosted by drugs or adrenaline absorbing multiple rounds and killing/injuring multiple citizens and then cops before going down.

Handguns are underpowered so multiple center of mass hits have to be relied upon for them to be reasonably effective. The reality of actual gunfights is that few criminals are going to just stand still and let you have multiple clear shots to their vitals especially without shooting back at you.

Dr_2_B
July 27, 2009, 07:39 PM
Ive carried BUGs before, but mostly now I just go with one gun and a backup mag.

tcsnake
July 30, 2009, 11:39 AM
I carry a revolver, never had it jam, don't think it ever will.

If you do your job and your gun does it's job then you don't need anything further.

(my backup is a $300 benchmade switchblade BTW) nuff said

ezenbrowntown
July 30, 2009, 12:21 PM
I'm a "to each their own" kinda guy. You wanna carry two? Cool. Just a 5 shot revolver does the trick for ya? Cool. Whatever floats your boat.

If I've had to reload in a self defense situation, I'm already shooting my way to escape. Good chance I've already started doing that anyway. There is a lot of talk about "eliminate the threat", which I believe is great. However, my first priority is "get away unharmed". I'm not a cop. My obligation isn't to eliminate the bad guy, but to get my butt back home to my family.

Do I understand the need for a second gun? Sure. But if I find myself needing a second gun, what I really need is a rifle. So I better be shooting my way back to it or escape.

searcher451
July 30, 2009, 01:06 PM
If the OP chooses not to carry or even own a back-up gun, that's fine by me. I do, and I carry it virtually every day, especially in summer months. I also carry an extra mag for my primary piece. But that's just me. As the old saying goes, whatever trips your trigger.

PT1911
July 30, 2009, 06:59 PM
I can understand why someone would carry two guns... I personally would find it to be unnecessary but that is my preference... what i do not understand is why someone would carry a gun that is a "step down" from their primary carry piece. Seeing as the moment you actually have to use your BUG it then becomes more important than your Primary gun wouldnt you want something with the same ballistics, range, and overall affectiveness? I have no issue carrying a Kel Tec P3at any day anywhere so this isnt a knock on them or any smaller gun.

However, if you choose to carry, say, a full sized 1911 as your primary weapon because a .45 is a DRT round and no BG has ever gotten up after being hit by one, why would you then carry a Kel Tec or NAA or something similar as a BUG to the "greatest gun ever made."

I have a difficult time wrapping my head around the idea of someone carrying any gun that they would designate as a BUG if they define that as anything other than the second gun they strap on.

as I have said I love Kel Tecs and carry one regularly as my "primary," I just dont understand people's rational for carrying a gun that they would otherwise regard as inferior, even slightly, to their primary gun..
or even own a back-up gun

By which you mean what?

Jim K
July 30, 2009, 07:15 PM
Many police departments prohibit BUG's because the "back-up" is often intended as a throwdown.

Jim

TheProf
July 31, 2009, 05:46 AM
In the ideal world, if you were going to carry a BUG, that BUG would be as big and powerful as your primary. But in the real world, sometimes its a compromise. A person sometimes needs more than 1 gun...but can't carry 2. So, they compromise and carry 1 and 1/2. Example: Full size 1911 and NAA .22. Some would argue that this combination is better than just the full size 1911.

scotthsi
August 2, 2009, 12:13 PM
My most often carry ensemble is a G19 and Kahr PM9. At least they both use the same ammo. I don't understand why people can't comprehend the idea of having a malfunction with the first gun and needing to transition to a back up. Or having their strong side arm either injured, locked up or disabled in some way. Why carry a knife if you carry a gun? Same thing. I carry one clipped to my left (weak side) pocket and I can guarantee you that if my right arm (both guns on the right...hip and pocket) is disabled, I'll be damned sure to really phuk that guy's day up with a sharp serrated blade. He'll let go right quick! ;)

Erik
August 2, 2009, 10:46 PM
"Many police departments prohibit BUG's because the "back-up" is often intended as a throwdown."

A straw man in that it is a dated concern, if it ever even was one; the nearly universal trend of agencies recording the SNs of firearms that LEOs are authorized to carry having addressed the "concern."

Erik
August 2, 2009, 11:11 PM
I carry a BUG, out of "positional concern" more so than concern that my primary will be removed from my possession or that it may cease to function, though those are remote considerations. Very remote... Then there is the option of providing it to another. I personally know more LEOs who have relied on their BUGs to arm another than have relied on them for all other reasons combined; key word "personally." Mileage certainly varies.

Bishop.357
August 4, 2009, 07:54 AM
I carry a SA XD40sc as my main gun. Its a great little SOB too,I can do a tactical reload and fire three aimed shots in under 3.5 seconds;but even the most dependable gun can jam and it could do it at the worst possable moment. Thats why I carry a S&W 640 magnum on the small of my back on the left side(I can shoot just as well with my left as I can with my right).
Theres also the "classic movie scenario" where you have more then one target and have to shoot in two directions at once,highly unlikely but not an impossable situation. You don't think you need to carry a BUG? Then don't. The reason the rest of us do is because we don't wanna get killed for lack of shootin' back.

Firewall
August 4, 2009, 02:45 PM
My view is in a primary weaponsfirepower (for lack of a better word) is more important than concealment & convenience, within reason of course.

Since the chance of ever needing a back up gun is lower, concealment & convenience outrank firepower for this choice. But firepower remains important to me because as someone else pointed out it is better coined a "alternative gun". For me this means pocket carry which offers advantages a belt gun will not.

Reliability is #1 for both (my BUG is a J frame). I don't think I've ever seen anyone designate a gun as a BUG only due to reliability, but all the time for lower power but easier to hide guns. At some point it becomes only logical to compromise firepower for convenience, or we'd all carry long guns :).

For those that think citizens don't need back up guns, I ask: Once a fight has started, how do you tactically differ from a police officer? I won't judge anyone who doesn't want to carry a BUG but I dislike drawing hard boundaries between us and the police. Our chances of being in a fight differ, but I don't think the fight itself varies much at all.

Lastly, it's really disgusting that anyone should ever have to weigh what they may consider adequate self defense vs. how it looks to cops/jury. Not denying its true, I just think its sick.

TheProf
August 4, 2009, 03:50 PM
Well said, MDPuckett84!!!

Our primary concern regarding CCW is that we have adequate gun to resist the criminal. And in today's society, the criminal is not singular...but plural....."criminals". They now attack in packs. And carrying a BUG is becoming more and more a necessity. But alas..there are those who frown upon citizens carrying more than one gun. They see anyone who carries more than one gun as someone who is looking for trouble. How sad that some people actually think this way. I carry two guns because I love my family and want to have all the tactical advantage I can muster in repelling a criminal attack.

Sadly... I have to consider how it looks to the jury (me carrying two guns) should I have to defend my family.

sohcgt2
August 4, 2009, 07:49 PM
I carry two guns because I love my family and want to have all the tactical advantage I can muster in repelling a criminal attack.

Sadly... I have to consider how it looks to the jury (me carrying two guns) should I have to defend my family.

Part one should be the mindset of all who carry. This is why my primary has a grip mounted laser and tritium sights while my BUG has 5 rounds of .357 mag. As for how it looks to a jury, I guess should that ever happen, I'll hope your in my jury box or that I'm on the jury that hears your case.

Floppy_D
August 4, 2009, 07:55 PM
Sadly... I have to consider how it looks to the jury (me carrying two guns) should I have to defend my family.

That's probably the best counterpoint made so far.

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