10mm/40 caliber?


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surjimmy
July 23, 2009, 06:32 PM
I have a Delta Elite 1911 10mm, was told today by and older gentleman who works at a local gun store that I can shoot 40 caliber out of my 10mm. He said same concept as the 38 out of a 357 mag. Does anyone have first hand experience with this?

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chrissmallwood
July 23, 2009, 07:21 PM
No you can't shoot 40S&W out of a 10MM chambered gun unless it's a revolver that uses moon clips. It will fit but it will go too far into the chamber since it is shorter than 10MM. All that would be required would be a barrel and recoil spring change to allow the use of 40S&W.

EMC45
July 23, 2009, 07:25 PM
Both cartridges headspace on the case mouth. Like the above post states it would go in too far. I would stop listening to the "sage advice" of the older gentleman you mention. It could be hazardous to your health.

3pairs12
July 23, 2009, 07:29 PM
He wasn't talking about bullet diameter was he?

surjimmy
July 23, 2009, 07:34 PM
I did not listen to him, I heard what he had to say. Thought about it and posted the question. I never had any intention of trying it, was just curious.

ROBBY.1911
July 23, 2009, 09:36 PM
why is everyone being so mean. the 1911 cartridge headspaces off the extractor. you can shoot .40 without changing anything. the reason for a new barrel is to avoid chamber erosion. try Ed Brown for the best drop-in .40 barrel there is. while you are talking to EB about the barrel, run the whole idea past them. it's easier than you think.

edelbrock
July 23, 2009, 09:40 PM
As far as I know, both the 40 S&W and the 10mm headspace off of the mouth of the case so I would not recommend it.

glocks rock
July 23, 2009, 10:40 PM
I've heard people shooting 40's out of a 10mm but wouldn't recommend it. The round head spaces on the mouth and if you shoot a 40 in a 10 , the only thing holding the round in place is the extractor. It can be done but it's stupid to do it.

tlen
July 24, 2009, 03:47 AM
Isn't 10mm 40 caliber ?.

JCisHe
July 24, 2009, 06:12 AM
Tien, no.

Faitmaker
July 24, 2009, 07:39 AM
Tlen,
The diameter is roughly the same. The OAL is different.

SHOOT1SAM
July 24, 2009, 10:42 AM
ROBBY.1911: why is everyone being so mean. the 1911 cartridge headspaces off the extractor. you can shoot .40 without changing anything. the reason for a new barrel is to avoid chamber erosion. try Ed Brown for the best drop-in .40 barrel there is. while you are talking to EB about the barrel, run the whole idea past them. it's easier than you think.

Not quite sure whether you're being serious or sarcastic. :confused: 1911's do NOT headspace off of the extractor; as glocks rock stated, they headspace on the mouth of the case and if only extractor is holding the cartridge, bad things can happen.

tlen: Isn't 10mm 40 caliber ?.
Faitmaker: Tlen, the diameter is roughly the same. The OAL is different.

Just to clarify, the diameter isn't roughly the same, it is exactly the same (.400-it's also the same diameter of bullet for the 38-40 Winchester cartridge).

Sam

CWL
July 24, 2009, 02:29 PM
He was confusing the history of 10mm and .40SW.

10mm was the original bullet caliber made famous in Miami Vice in the 1980's and subsequently chosen by the FBI as their duty ammo. The 10mm full-power loads were too "powerful" for female and smaller male agents to handle, -so the FBI started issuing lighter loads. This was called the "10mm light". It was a regular 10mm cartridge filled with less propellant.

Eventually, S&W figured-out that an underloaded 10mm casing made no sense, and they devised new shell to hold the same bullet & amount of propellant inside a shorter brass casing. Since 10mm roughly equals .40 caliber in diameter, they named the new bullet ".40SW". This was the birth of the .40SW bullet and it did very well in duplicating the same ballistics as the 10mm "light" but in a much smaller & cheaper gun.

when .40SW came out, it was touted as the "perfect" gun and would replace both 9mm and .45ACP pistols. Actual results in the streets show that it still depends on shot placement and not caliber of bullet.

sqlbullet
July 24, 2009, 05:36 PM
Shoot1Sam is exactly right. And if you want an idea of what can happen when you shoot .40 S&W in a 10mm chamber, look here. (http://www.thegunzone.com/10v40.html)

The sole exception to this is the Springfield Omega/Peter Stahl 1911's which featured dual extractors. Because of the dual extractors, these guns effectively did headspace off the rim. The impact of the firing pin would not push the cartridge deep into the chamber before detonating the primer pellet.

One other point of clarification. The FBI used the '10mm light' from day one. All there ballistics testing, even before adoption, was using 180 grain bullets in the 980-1000 fps range. The complaints were about difficulty in controlling the S&W 1076 due to it's large size. To solve this problem, they moved to the Glock, with a similar grip circumference, less mass, shooting the same projectile at the same speed, although from a different cartridge. Can we all say politcal?

10-Ring
July 24, 2009, 05:38 PM
The similarity is more like the 9mm and 380 -- 9mm kurz. So, it's 10mm and 10mm kurz or 10mm short :D They are not interchangeable ;)

Taterhead
July 24, 2009, 08:05 PM
Isn't 10mm 40 caliber ?.
tlen,

The 40 S&W and 10mm auto shoot the exact same caliber projectile. Projectiles can be loaded in either case. For reloading, there is no distinction in the bullets that you buy for 40 S&W or 10mm auto. The difference between the two rounds are the case dimensions, pressure limits, and primer size. The projectiles are identical BUT THE 40 S&W SHOULD NOT BE SHOT IN A 10MM AUTO!

JCisHe
July 24, 2009, 08:31 PM
Tater,

That's not much difference haha!

Dave T
July 24, 2009, 11:35 PM
It is frightening how much bad information has been put out in this thread. I'm not sure where to start.

The FBI didn't start with the down loaded 10mm. The original Norma rounds were a 170g bullet at about 1350 fps and a 200g at something like 1200 fps. Federal down loaded it at the FBI's request and you can still get that "FBI" load if you buy Federal 10mm Hydra-shoks.

And speaking of the FBI they never used the Glock 20 (10mm). After the debacle they made of the 10mm choice they eventually ended up with a 40 caliber Glock but they are the G23 & G22, their current issue weapons.

As someone already corrected, the 45 ACP does not head space on the extractor but rather on the case mouth in the chamber, just as the 40 S&W and the 10mm do.

And, as already corrected, the 10mm and the .40 caliber are exactly the same (speaking of the bullet of course).

Good grief,
Dave

BlindJustice
July 25, 2009, 12:07 AM
Jeez,

Some CARTRDGES have a common Calilber

10mm Auto & .40 S&W as well as some other
CARTRIDGES use a .401 Bullet.
and they as well as most semi-auto cartridges
headspace on the case mouth.

10MM Auto was created by a Swedish arms firm,
I believe it was Norma. The development of the .40
S&W was instgated by the FBI for a shorter cartridge so that it would fit in the same magazine well length as the 9mm Luger so that LEOS of average or below average hand size found it more confortable to use.

Do your homework people

Randall

David E
July 25, 2009, 12:51 AM
S&W was instgated by the FBI for a shorter cartridge

Well, not quite.

The FBI didn't "instigate" it. They did not tell S&W to come up with the shorter case. Instead, two engineers at S&W did. Once the FBI mandated lighter loads, the engineers realized that they could duplicate that same bullet weight at the same speed with a shorter case. This allowed the .40 S&W to be housed in the 9mm sized platform instead of the longer/larger ones required for the 10mm.

The FBI screwed up. They are on record saying that the .45 acp has been taken as far as it can go, so they dismissed it. Since the whole reason for the change in the first place was the "failure" of a 9mm bullet, there was no way they would stay with the caliber. (they preferred to blame a bullet that performed exactly as advertised instead of the sloppy/lazy techniques used by the agents)

Of the cartridges availabe at the time, the 10mm seemed to meet their stated needs....until they found that in the full loadings, many agents could not handle it. They then specified a 180 grain JHP @ 950.........which, curiously, was remarkably close to the 185 grain JHP @ 950 that was available for the .45 acp.....but they'd already burnt that bridge.

surjimmy
July 25, 2009, 01:59 AM
Just in case there's a person new to guns, and don't understand all this technical mumbojumbo. Do Not shoot a 40 caliber out of a gun that is chambered for a 10mm

Holden3125
October 5, 2009, 03:14 PM
This question might generate some flack, but I'd like to know. Since this thread is a little old I'll give some background for my question.

The original question was essentially, can a 40sw cartridge be fired from a 10mm pistol.

Robby1911 said "...the 1911 cartridge headspaces off the extractor. you can shoot .40 without changing anything. the reason for a new barrel is to avoid chamber erosion..."

Shoot1Sam said "...1911's do NOT headspace off of the extractor; as glocks rock stated, they headspace on the mouth of the case and if only extractor is holding the cartridge, bad things can happen."

sqlbullet said "Shoot1Sam is exactly right. And if you want an idea of what can happen when you shoot .40 S&W in a 10mm chamber, look here (http://www.thegunzone.com/10v40.html).

The sole exception to this is the Springfield Omega/Peter Stahl 1911's which featured dual extractors. Because of the dual extractors, these guns effectively did headspace off the rim. The impact of the firing pin would not push the cartridge deep into the chamber before detonating the primer pellet."

The answer to my question may very well be the last line of sqlbullet's comment, but I'd like clarification. So the question is, why is a single extractor holding the shell not enough to allow it to effectively headspace off the rim?

Thanks...

rcmodel
October 5, 2009, 03:57 PM
Yes, you can shoot .40 S&W out of a 10mm gun.
Both shoot exactly the same .400" jacketed bullets.

But only IF the gun happens to be a S&W 10mm revolver using moon clips.

In that case, shooting .40 S&W and 10mm interchangably is perfectly fine.
(Like the old guy said about .38 Spl & .357 Mag.)

Not in auto pistols though.
1911's do not headspace on the extractor!
(Well, they can if encountering a too short case, but not intentionally by design all the time.)

rc

kanook
October 5, 2009, 05:00 PM
4 choices to be safe
1) buy a revolver
2) buy a Springfield Omega
3) buy a firearm that you can do a barrel swap
4) buy two firearms, one in each caliber (I like this idea the best)

dagger dog
October 5, 2009, 06:41 PM
0.004" = 0.10 mm round it up to 10mm = .40 cal.

Quiet
October 5, 2009, 10:48 PM
You can shoot .40S&W out of a 10x25mm semi-auto pistol.
But, it is not safe to do so.



After the 1986 FBI Miami shootout (8 FBI agents vs 2 bad guys = 2 bad guys KIA, 2 FBI KIA, 5 FBI WIA of which 2 medically retired due to the injuries. 1 bad guy did all the damage to the FBI and had been shot 3 times with 9mm prior to doing so), the FBI determined that the 9x19mm was an inadequate service round and looked for a replacement. After testing, they determined the 10x25mm was what they wanted.

S&W and Winchester created the .40S&W, after realizing that the ballistics of the underloaded 10mm "light" rounds that the FBI were using could be replicated in a smaller package.

In the early-1990s, the FBI issued the 10x25mm S&W Model 1976, but due to compliants about the size/weight of the handgun from field agents, it was replaced by an interm pistol in the mid-1990s, the 9x19mm SIG P-226/P-228 (agents had a choice). In the early-2000s, the SIGs were replaced by the .40S&W Glock 22/23 (agents have a choice).

Demitrios
October 6, 2009, 12:02 AM
I could go on a rant but this man hits the nail on the head pretty solidly.

http://www.thegunzone.com/10v40.html

2ndamd
October 6, 2009, 01:25 AM
You can shoot a .40 in a 10 mm. Just switch out the barrels and your ready to go. Most guns do not require a magazine, extractor, or recoil spring change. Swap a 100mm barrel for a .40 cal barrel and away you go. :)

nitetrane98
October 6, 2009, 01:28 AM
The answer is, yes you can shoot a .40 S&W in a Colt Delta Elite. To be precise, a Colt Delta Gold Cup. I had a handful of 10mm in my pocket and somehow managed to let a .40 S&W slip into a mag full I was loading. No big drama, no kaboom, no damage. The next round jammed the empty .40 up into the chamber beyond the reach of the extractor and it had to be poked out from the muzzle. The .40 obviously headspaced on the extractor and was in position for the FP to reach the primer. Not really sure what the sequence of events was that lead to the case slipping the extractor and being stuffed into the chamber.

Now, the disclaimer. This .40 was a reload 180 gr fmj. I'm not sure which batch it came from but all of my .40 loads are somewhat reduced loads. I had been shooting 10mm lites and the recoil/report was not that much different, so the .40 could have been one that was just mildly reduced. I expected to see something picture posting worthy from the .40 case but, no joy, looked like about every other one I've ever seen. I kind of expected to see a Glock smile all the way around it.

So, if you want to shoot reduced load .40's single shot and glomb up your chamber and risk a case failure, and poke out the hulls from the muzzle, knock yourself out. It's really not all that much fun to use a single shot Delta.

OH BTW, the way to do it is get yourself a Fire Dragon 6" ported .40 S&W barrel. Drop it in, and go to shooting .40's. Your 10mm mags will work for the most part and so will your stock recoil springs.

Holden3125
October 6, 2009, 01:29 AM
I read that article three or four times. My question, which I suppose is beside the point, is why does one ejector holding the rim of the cartridge not provide adequate headspacing? I understand it's not designed to work that way but it seemingly does, and it does indeed hold the cartridge against the breech face in the same position (at the breech face) the 10mm cartridge would be. The difference as I see it is not there unless somehow that ejector is not adequate (please explain if it is indeed not) but rather at the mouth of the shell. The 1/7" gap would be there and the bullet would have to find it's way into the barrel from the chamber. That's what worries me. I'm a novice so please explain any illusions I have here...

Chuck Warner
October 6, 2009, 01:57 AM
...It would seem HOLDEN, that you have pinpointed something. Under Ideal circumstances, all cases would headspace on the casemouth, realisticaly most dont.

Smith and Wesson basically adopted the Centimeter cartridge, Invented by Paul Liebenburg, to their 9mm platform guns. Hence the .40 cartridge. the difference being basically a small pistol primer to avoid detonation or firing by the ejector upon the removal of live round. When the .40 S&W was born, so was the Performance Center. Head Gunsmith/ Director?....The same Paul Liebenburg.
Paul Created the Centimeter for IPSC by cutting the original 10mm down for better feeding etc. The 10 was developed in conjunction with the Bren Tenand was heralded as an Ideal compromise between capacity and knock down power.

Chuck W

Magnumdood
October 6, 2009, 02:30 AM
...than the Glock 20.

Too many FBI agents shot limp-wristed and ruined a good thing...for the FBI.

Demitrios
October 6, 2009, 03:21 AM
Magnumdood I hate to tell you this but the Glock 20 wasn't what the FBI were using when they adopted the 10mm, it was the Bren Ten that was used. In fact teh Glock 20 wasn't invented until 1991. And there were/are plenty of problems with using a 10mm, especially with full loads. Many pistol frames couldn't handle the power of full loads and needed constant maintenance and that means more money, etc. etc. While I love the 10mm and in a 1911 it's my choice for carry the .40 S&W is cheaper, universally more controllable and will do the job the FBI, and any other shooter, need it to do for target and for defense against humans.

nitetrane98
October 6, 2009, 12:51 PM
OK. here's the deal.
I've grown reluctant to take anything I see on the internet at face value so I decided to try to replicate Dean Speir's results.

I'm going to have to call my single previous experience with a .40 inadvertently being fired in my 10mm barrel an anomally. Possibly because of the fact it was a reload. As I said, it was waiting patiently in the chamber to be poked out and showed no ill effects. I don't know where it started out, under the extractor or up in the chamber.

I loaded up 6 WW white box 180 gr fmj into the 10mm mag and fired them up making sure to see that each was captured by the extractor. They all went bang, ejected properly and the cases showed no signs of any problem whatsoever.

I then loaded one round into the chamber, closed the slide and fired. This case ejected normally, though closer than the others. It was the spitting image of most of the cases in Speir's article. Primer flatter than a pancake and nicely perforated and a nice little nick on the head where it jumped over the extractor.

So I guess the moral of the story is if your gun won't capture the .40 underneath the extractor and lets it slip over and headspace on the casemouth you can expect flat, perforated primers and premature extractor wear. OTOH, if it captures the .40 behind the extractor against the breechface pretty much all you're looking at is premature wear and dirtying up on the casemouth ridge in the chamber. How long it would take to fatally damage the ridge I have no idea but these will be the last .40's to ever go through my 10mm barrel.
It's so much easier just to put in the correct barrel.

BCPerry
October 6, 2009, 12:59 PM
I reload .40 and 10mm. Except for the brass, they are the same. I put the same bullet in each one.

rcmodel
October 6, 2009, 01:24 PM
In an attempt to answer the extractor / headspace question.

The extractor in any 1911, or any other gun that feeds the round up under the extractor hook, simply cannot hold the case tight against the breech-face.

There has to be built-in hook clearance in order for a round to come out of the magazine at an angle and be able to slide up under the extractor hook.
Were it tight enough to hold the case back firmly against the breech-face, the round would bind up while feeding with the nose tipped upward and stop the gun.

If you hold a round in firm contact with the breech-face and look at the case rim / extractor hook, you will note quite a gap between the back of the hook and the front of the rim. This is as it would be when in battery and is controlled by the depth of the chamber and the case length.

Firing shorter cases, as a .40S&W in a 10mm chamber will allow the firing pin to drive the case forward against the extractor, fire it, and then chamber pressure drives the case rearward at very high speed against the breach-face.
This batters the gun excessively because the case gets a high-speed running start before hitting the slide.

rc

nitetrane98
October 6, 2009, 01:47 PM
I understand what you are saying. What do you make of the advise commonly given for checking extractor tension of placing a round under the extractor and giving it a little shake? Supposedly it is to remain in place. Mine has never done that but I have just chalked it up to wear on the extractor. Mine has still never failed to eject or feed properly so I go with the "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." maxim. Perhaps the shaking deal is for going the other way and determining if the extractor is too tight? Mine looks like it might get a 1/32" or so of free run with a .40 held behind the extractor. I don't really see how that batters the gun, per se. The brass is the clear loser in the collision with perhaps the most solid point of the entire gun.

rondog
October 6, 2009, 02:50 PM
Yeah yeah yeah, and you can shoot .380 acp out of a 9x18Makarov pistol too. So said the gunstore coot when I came in looking for 9x18mak ammo.

Bottom line, beware of advice from old gunstore coots, and use the right ammo for the weapon.

But hey, it's YOUR hands and eyes, not mine.

Chuck Warner
October 6, 2009, 03:25 PM
...The FBI never used the Bren Ten...neither did most Bren Ten owners.

The first FBI 10 was the 1006 if I recall correctly. Then the 1076.

Magnumdood
October 6, 2009, 03:29 PM
Demetrios,

I didn't see where I claimed the FBI used the Glock platform for their little foray into 10mm land. I'm well aware of what they used as well as when the 10mm was offered in the Glock. I really don't care if steel frames can't handle the pounding of the 10mm; the Glock frame can. I've shot well over 15K full power loads out of mine with nary a problem. The Glock polymer frames soak up a lot of recoil that causes metal frames a myriad of problems.

Magnumdood
October 6, 2009, 03:33 PM
Chuck,

You recall correctly.

9mmepiphany
October 6, 2009, 03:51 PM
...The FBI never used the Bren Ten...neither did most Bren Ten owners.

The first FBI 10 was the 1006 if I recall correctly. Then the 1076

it's pretty hard to use a Bren Ten without a supply of mags :D

the major downfall of the FBI selection of the 1076 as their platform of choice was their insistence on the frame mounted de-cocker...they should have chosen the Ruger P90

every 1006 (only 4) i've fired has been flawless...well, except for the weight :)

Magnumdood
October 6, 2009, 06:03 PM
every 1006 (only 4) i've fired has been flawless...well, except for the weight I worked with a guy who carried the S&W 1076. Never had a problem. He was a pretty good shot too. The chickification of the FBI led to the creation of the S&W .40.

9mmepiphany
October 6, 2009, 06:23 PM
The chickification of the FBI led to the creation of the S&W .40.

well then i guess we should that the "chicks" for bringing about the new default "LE round" :)

surfinUSA
October 6, 2009, 07:49 PM
JFC, just buy a 40 s&w barrel for your 10mm and it will work fine. Iknow for a fact that a glock 20 will work just fine with the stanadard 10mm mags and recoil springs

Zak Smith
October 6, 2009, 10:10 PM
I am hesitant to report this, but a good friend of mine has shot probably hundreds of .40SW rounds out of his Glock 20 with the factory 10mm barrel. Heck, I've done it. However, I do not recommend it. The right and safe way to do it is to get a .40SW conversion barrel.

-z

Chuck Warner
October 7, 2009, 09:24 PM
....Ive done it plenty.

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