Smith and Wesson 76 vs. Uzi vs. H&K MP5


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Lord Soth
January 18, 2003, 07:02 PM
How do the (in all cases pre ban) Smith and Wesson 76, the Uzi and the Heckler and Koch MP5 compare to each other? Which is best? Also if the Machine Gun Bans in the US were lifted how much value would a $5000 great condition Smith and Wesson 76 loose?

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blades67
January 18, 2003, 07:11 PM
The HK MP5 is the best of the bunch.

The S&W 76 would probably lose half of its value. They're no longer produced, so some collector value would remain, but demand would drop because of the availability of better modern ordnance.

4v50 Gary
January 18, 2003, 07:17 PM
S&W comes in dead last. It's roughly based on the Swedish Model K. Strictly a first generation weapon.

Now, both the Uzi and the MP-5 are fine smgs and both are controllable with practice. However, the Uzi is the heavier of the two so I'll woosy out and go with the HK. There are two distinct advantages of the Uzi though. First, magazines are more readily available and they're cheaper. Two, for those who are worried about "ballistic fingerprinting," the Uzi's barrel is readily removable.

Al Thompson
January 18, 2003, 07:32 PM
I've fired the Uzi and MP-5. Never had the chance on an Omega Man gun, but have fired the M-3 + M3A1 greaseguns.

MP-5 is more of a carbine with the closed bolt, Uzi is more compact, suspect the S&W would equal the Uzi performance wise, harder to carry though.

Handled but never shot the MP-10. Now there's a sub-gun with authority.

I like the MP-5 best, but would rather have it in a serious caliber.

AK103K
January 18, 2003, 09:03 PM
Comparing open bolts to closed bolts is kind of like apples and oranges. The closed bolts have it, pretty much hands down. They are a much more versitile weapon.

mdwest
January 18, 2003, 09:15 PM
"B" model Uzi's defniately have some advantages over the "A" models, but neither even come close to the MP5 in reliability, accuracy, or ergodynamics (especially if the MP5 has a Navy trigger group)..

the SW76 isnt even in the ball park with the other two...

Stay Safe and Win at All Costs!
Dave West
www.legionconsulting.com

JShirley
January 18, 2003, 09:28 PM
B" model Uzi's defniately have some advantages over the "A" models, but neither even come close to the MP5 in reliability

Dave, what basis do you have for this? I believe H&K is more accurate, but reliable?

John

Beer for my Horses
January 18, 2003, 09:31 PM
Handled but never shot the MP-10
For the record, HK refers to it as an MP-5 10mm, not MP-10, although that seems to have escaped Tom Clancy too.

I like the MP-5 best, but would rather have it in a serious caliber.
It seems to be "serious" enough for professional operators all over the world. SAS, FBI HRT, DELTA, NAVY SEALS, and GSG9 all seem content with the MP-5 in 9mm and none of them have requested that they procure it in anything larger. It's just one of those combinations that makes for a perfect fit for its intended purpose.

Gordon
January 18, 2003, 09:45 PM
A "first generation" gun is a thompson or MP 38 or ealier type. A "2nd generation gun " by definition is predominately made up of stampings and earlier design blow back open bolt :Think 1940 up MP-40 ect. of which M-45 'swedishK' is a member.These guns usually have wire type collapsable stocks. 3rd gen guns can have such feautures as; telescopic bolts, magazine in grip, use of synthetics ect and Uzi AND MP-5 are both examples. A 4th generation is recognized by some as being begun with Mac-10 and prime example are Jatta, and other 'folding' designs . A 5th generation would be FN-90 ect. I had an Uzi ; very nice but heavy. Thompson,even nicer but HEAVIER. An MP-5 ; like a glock except BIGGER, and in VN I BOUGHT a M-45; now there was a nice gun. The Smith 76s Ive seen since werent as beefy looking as M-45. I resold it to an old sarge in Da Nang.:(

mdwest
January 18, 2003, 09:51 PM
the reliability issue is simply from personal experience...not gleaned from any text, report, or study...

we had access to both a and b model uzi's in the weapons pool a million years ago when i was still calling myself a soldier (special operations unit)... granted the weapons were old and had been beat up alot, but they never performed to the level that our mp5's did...

even had a couple of sweedish-k's, and a couple of SW76's there... trained with them all on occasion..

a couple of years ago i had the opportunity to a/i a "tactical submachinegun" course for a small police department in northern illinois.. their tactical team was still carrying B models (i think they still are today).. several thousand rounds down range per weapon that week...

as a current team leader with a metro area SWAT team, i work with mp'5 daily (have one issued, as well as an m4)...

just happen to have a decent amount of experience with all the weapons systems named (most have to rely on what they read in a magazine, what they have been told, or base their opinions on limited experience with different weapons).. its been my personal experience that while the Uzi is a robust weapon system and is not prone to breakage or failures like so many other open bolt sub guns, it does experience more problems than the mp5. problems with the Uzi's inclulde (while somewhat uncommon) "run away" guns, when they have been subjected to alot of continuous or full auto fire, and spring breakages..

again, this is NOT meant to say that the Uzi is unreliable.. it is far from that, and is my 1st choice if i am required to use an open bolt sub gun (thankfully that is not the case).. it has simply been my personal experience that it isnt as solid a system as the mp5

(not that it matters, and i recognize that i am probably PAINFULLY lucky on this, but ive been shooting mp5's off and on for close to 15 years now, and i have NEVER had a malfunction with one... not one.. ive obviously seen them, but have yet to have one of my own...)

Stay Safe and Win at All Costs!
Dave West
www.legionconsulting.com

mdwest
January 18, 2003, 09:53 PM
JShirley,
you werent stationed at Ft. Benning in 1992 at building 4 were you? If so our paths may have crossed a decade ago...

Stay Safe and Win at All Costs!
Dave West
www.legionconsulting.com

Al Thompson
January 18, 2003, 10:29 PM
BeerFMH, all due respect, but the folks you mention have lots of friends nearby with more firepower. For my personal use, if I can get a platform in a bigger caliber, I will. FYI, one of my fav carry pieces is a G19.

Mdwest, JShirley is a recent addition to the bearers of crossed rifles. IIRC, he was 18 or so in '92. I suspect he never hit "Bedroom 4" while at Benning.

Quick note - per Pat Rogers, the USMC folks are mving away from the MP-5s and going to M-4s. Food for thought.

Mike Irwin
January 18, 2003, 10:40 PM
I've fired all 3.

The MP-5 gets top billing in all categories, as far as I'm concerned. It deserves the title of best subgun in the world.

I prefered the S&W over the Uzi for a number of reasons, including feel in the hands, balance, etc.

mdwest
January 18, 2003, 10:43 PM
Al T is right, you are seeing a strong movement away from the mp5 in both law enforcement circles as well as within special operations community in the military.. the weapons still serves its purpose in certain roles, but is usually NOT preferred to the m4 or other similar weapons packages.. again, nothing wrong with the mp5.. but with the m4 package, SOPMOD kit (and comparables), new ammo, and recent (last 10 years) research on 5.56 ballistics, the m4 now reigns king even for most CQB and entry situations...


I guess ive got the wrong John Shirley.. the Ranger Shirley i knew was a young E6 tac over at IOBC (in 92... he is probably an E8 now).... he had done some time with 2/75 at Lewis in the late 80's and intended on getting back there as soon as he could

Stay Safe and Win at All Costs!
Dave West
www.legionconsulting.com

JShirley
January 19, 2003, 12:29 AM
Dave,
Thanks for the additional info. As Al said, I'm a newbie to the Army (patriotic duty after 9-11 and all that) . I entered svc 7 Nov 01.

John

Beer for my Horses
January 19, 2003, 12:53 AM
BeerFMH, all due respect, but the folks you mention have lots of friends nearby with more firepower.
I don't see how this matters. They have their choice of weapon and ideal cartridge and they all are content with 9mm in their MP-5's. Further, they conduct many ops when MP-5's and sidearms are the exclusive weapons used -- no SAW's on standby -- the ballistic difference between say 9mm and .45, especially in a smg with 147gr. bullets, is marginal at best. Controllability between the two, however, is significant. The nine is fine: with LEA's and military operators worldwide who use the MP-5 on a daily basis.

DrDremel
January 19, 2003, 10:50 AM
I have fired at least a few thousand through both. Of the 3 the Uzi is the least accurate of the two because of the straight grip angle due to the magazine in the grip. If it is ever fired one handed the bolt mass makes the rounds stray vertically. It is a reliable gun. The mp5 is a great police gun but not as a long term military gun. accurate in both but the most sensetive to dirt of the 3. In a closed bolt gun a bolt hold open is needed to tell you that the gun has run dry. In real life combat, people don't remember to change mags until the gun runs dry. Open bolt guns feel different when the bolt closes on an empty chamber. It lets the shooter know it is empty. The 76 is a good gun that was killed by timing. It mas made for US military sales when the CAR-15 came out. The military now had a subgun size carbine that used the same parts, ammo and mags as their rifles. Logistics took over. The police market was still swamped with surplus WWII sugbuns. The mag design (Swedish K mags) are the best mags designed out there period. The Navy Seals used S&W76 subguns for almost 15 years. They passed all of their tests with flying colors. The reason they got rid of them was they ran out of spare parts and S&W didn't want to tool up for just the Navy Seals as that is not a very big market. The MK760 is sometimes mistaken for the S&W76. The quality on those are not as good. The S&W is a C&R and is made by S&W, and american company. If the ban were lifted, it would still hold it's value because no more are made and people in C&R only states can one them. There are only about 3-4000 of them in existence. Uzi's and MP5 clones would be everywhere. The S&W is a second generation subgun, The UZI and MP5 are third generation subguns. It is hard to compare them.

Mike Irwin
January 19, 2003, 11:50 AM
"Uzi is a 3rd Gen. subgun"

I would have thought that the Uzi, behing pretty much contemporary with the Swedish gun that formed the basis for the 76, and employing many of the same manufacturing techniques, would also be a second gen gun.

What are the distinctions between 1st, 2nd, 3rd, gen submachine gun designs?

AK103K
January 19, 2003, 12:02 PM
I think guns like the Thompson, the MP28, Soumi, etc would be examples of first generation guns, the MP40, The STEN, the M45, etc would be second generation, and the UZI, MAC's, etc are third generation. The first gen guns were well made, to a fault, and expensive to make. The second gen were a result of cost cutting and the need for production. The third were a design change and usually have a wrap around type bolt and grip fed mag, for the most part. They are more compact. I think the MP5 is actually more in the "assualt rifle" group than the SMG group, as it acts more like a rifle than a subgun. Then again, it may fall to second generation.

Hkmp5sd
January 19, 2003, 12:07 PM
My major complaint against the Uzi is the grip safety. After a few hundred rounds, it will make your hand pretty sore.

Another difference is the location of the fore grip and pistol grip. On the Uzi, the grip is directly under the bolt with the magazine inserted through it. The fore grip starts right at the trigger guard. In my completely unbiased (yea, right) opinion, this causes more dificulty in accuracy and control than the MP5, which has an extra 6" or so providing an overal distance of about 10" between the hands.

Yet another dislike is the metal stock on the UZI. When extended, it is angled downward. The MP5 A3 stock extends straight back in a direct line with the barrel.

Mike Irwin
January 19, 2003, 01:17 PM
I, too, have found that the Uzi set up causes me no end of accuracy problems. I normally shoot WAY high with one, whereas with the S&W 76 or HK I'm well in the ballpark, either from the shoulder or from a "burst" position.

JShirley
January 19, 2003, 02:25 PM
Beer,

I think NATO ammo compatability, rather than actual performance is the true reason the 9x19 squirt guns have seen so much usage.

Mike, Gordon lists what he feels are generational distinctions a little earlier in this thread.

John

Beer for my Horses
January 19, 2003, 04:45 PM
I think NATO ammo compatability, rather than actual performance is the true reason the 9x19 squirt guns have seen so much usage.

That might have played a large factor in our armed services switching to 9mm for their sidearm, but not for all the American SWAT teams, Spec Op teams, and HRT's that still use the MP-5 in 9mm without complaint. If Law Enforcement wants a change in caliber for their favorite weapon platform they get it. 70% of Glock's market is Law Enforcement and when they wanted a .40 pistol Glock was one of the first to produce one for them, even though there is virtually no interest in the .40 in Europe. My point is, if our professional operators wanted the MP-5 in something other than 9mm they'd get it (in fact, HK does make the MP-5 in 10mm but no U.S. LEA's or Spec Op teams have issued it as a replacement). They don't because it does the job just fine in Nine Minimeter. 147gr 9mm performs quite well from a SMG. Penetration in ballistic gel is 15", and expansion of the .355 caliber bullet is .68" I'm just the messenger: it has and continues to get the job done.

Handy
January 19, 2003, 04:51 PM
My brother recently tried an Uzi and Mp5 at a class 3 range. He found the Uzi more accurately controllable in full auto than the MP5.

The big innovation of the Uzi over Grease gun types was the wrap around bolt that shortens the receiver dramatically.

The Mp5 is really a 9mm G3 rifle. Neither cheap or simple to make, in contrast to all other designs.

A full auto Uzi costs $3000.

chieftain
January 20, 2003, 02:26 PM
Fellows, I carried a Thompson at one time and later a Swedish K while in Viet Nam, 67,68,69.

The Thompson was fun and accurate, heavy as hell, both the gun and particularly the Ammo!

The K was lighter almost as accurate and very controllable. I really liked the K.

If given the opportunity I would get one.

as to Ammo.

The k was firing military ball 124 grain.

My few contacts with the present SEAL teams tell me they use primarly 124 ball except for silenced operations with their MP5's.

That is true of their 226's also. 124 ball except for silenced ops.

Remember the biggest knock on the 9mm for 80 years, over penetration!

My 2 cents

Thanks

Fred

Gordon
January 20, 2003, 06:27 PM
My finding too, as I said, from a Marine now also!:banghead:

MrPink
January 21, 2003, 01:02 PM
I am assuming that you are asking the "which is better" question from the perspective of a lawful civilian shooter. I own a pair of Vector Arms Uzis. I chose the VA Uzi over the H&K MP5 for the following reasons:

1) They were $2,700 each. Transfer taxes and a boatload of mags, parts and accessories and I haven't even spent $7k. A transferable MP5 will start at about $8,500. Oh yeah and they were NIB from Vector Arms.

2) Quality. The VA Uzi is a quality registered receiver gun. Gurus better than I (such as Peter Kokalis) say this is the best Uzi ever made - better than IMI or FN. Transferable MP5s are all (except for the fabled one or two German MP5s that MAY have made it in before 1968) cut down HK94s. The conversions ranged in quality from true clones (push pin, swing down lowers on a registered receiver with full auto German parts) to hack jobs done with crappy sears.

3) Handling. The MP5 wins here. Lighter and more accurate with its closed bolt. The hand grip is at a more natural angle too. But for full mag dumps in the gravel pit, it matters little to me.

4) Parts and mags. Uzi hands down - quality stuff is available for a fraction of the cost of HK stuff. Hell, you could spend on MP5 mags alone the cost of a VA Uzi.

Byron Quick
January 26, 2003, 05:00 AM
There's gonna be a lot of crying MP5 owners if the '86 ban is ever repealed. I've seen used LEO MP5's advertised for less than a grand in the past two years.

I've got about $975-including tax stamp in my pre 86 Uzi. Without the '86 ban, that's about what it's worth.

I don't think that collector interest would be great enough in the S&W 76 to support a price of $2,500 without the ban.

Personally, this collector would be buying BAR FN-D's, various belt feds, some Thompsons...maybe one of those new in box in Russia.

AK103K
January 26, 2003, 09:42 AM
I wouldnt be crying, I'd be jumping up and down! :) I only paid $800 for my MP5 and I'd love to be able to afford a couple more, amoung other things. The way things are going, you wont be able to afford any of them. It kills me when you see LE only adds for things like grease guns for a couple of hundred dollars and you know a transferable one is ten times that.

Byron Quick
January 26, 2003, 09:50 AM
Warn't talking about the folks who paid pre-ban retail. Talking about the folks who paid 7 or 8 grand for one and think of it as an "investment."

I've got an H&K 91 that I bought from a guy for $1100. Before the ban I sold him that same rifle for $500. Then mine was stolen.
He sold it to me for about $700 to $900 cheaper than he probably could have gotten for it. I don't consider it a good "investment." Considering price increases due to continuing erosion of constitutional guarantees an "investment" is hardly sane. Investment in what? Your own enslavement?

Tamara
January 26, 2003, 10:08 AM
Why would the '86 ban going away make them cry? They still won't be able to buy those po-po MP-5's because those are imported SMGs.

If you want one of those Thompsons in Russia, you're going to have to wait until GCA'68 goes away, and I'm not holding my breath on that one. :(

DrDremel
January 26, 2003, 10:45 AM
I don't consider them investments. A 10,000% increase in transfer taxes could happen anytime and that would be the end of selling for most people. I will just try to wear mine out. If the ban ever went away, I would not care if they dropped in value. I did not buy it to look at, I bought it to shoot.

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