Perkins Restaurants - anti-gun corporate policy


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mrokern
July 24, 2009, 12:22 AM
Mods, please move if necessary with my apologies.

Many of us have these restaurants in our states.

We've run into a situation here in Minnesota with permit holders being asked to leave Perkins Restaurants. When contacted to clarify, a regional manager explained that it was corporate policy to not allow ANY carry in their restaurants, whether open or concealed.

You may contact the company at:

http://www.prkmcresearch.com/prkcomments/

Please explain, POLITELY, why you will be frequenting their competitors. :)

-Mark

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rickomatic
July 24, 2009, 12:41 AM
If you're CC'ing, how do they know to kick you out?

chuckusaret
July 24, 2009, 12:45 AM
The majority of the Perkin's closed down in Palm Beach County and Denny's will be next.

j-easy
July 24, 2009, 12:47 AM
If you're CC'ing, how do they know to kick you out?

its unlikely that they would notice, but I just checked and Minnesota is an open carry state.

j-easy
July 24, 2009, 12:51 AM
....

average_shooter
July 24, 2009, 12:55 AM
Not that I go often, but here in MN I have yet to see a properly posted Perkins, so they must not take the policy very seriously.

I'm sure I've carried concealed in a Perkins or two here, probably will again if I absolutely have to go again. Thanks for the heads-up, though.

scottaschultz
July 24, 2009, 02:12 AM
I posted this on another thread in this forum but I think it would also fit here...

...I know where I will not eat because of their views on firearms and it has nothing to do with whether or not you can carry in their establishment.

There is a chain of "upscale" bakery/cafes called Panera Bread. Normally I would go in there and get a cup of coffee and a bagel or pastry and leave. On one particular day, I had time to sit down inside while waiting on a friend. So I got out my iPod Touch that has wi-fi built in. I was able to read my email, check the local weather and so on, but when I went to check into a firearm forum, it said I was blocked by their firewall!

I wrote a tersely worded email to their corporate office and asked what gives? Their response: "As part of offering free wi-fi in our bakery-cafes nationwide, it is important that we maintain the community tone and standards that Panera Bread is known for."

They have definitely lost one customer because of this policy and if any of my fellow THR members have a Panera Bread in their neighborhood, you will put them on your "Do Not Patronize" list!

Scott

COMPNOR
July 24, 2009, 02:36 AM
I was gonna send that, buy didn't want to give those morons my info so someone else is free to use


So you take your right very seriously, and yet you're unable to stand up for it? What do you think they're going to do? Inform the Feds and have black helicopters come get you?

Before writing them off completely, why not see if you can get a response.

As for the Panera Bread....

This came up last year. You might be able to find it if you do a search. IMO, nothing to get your panties in a twist, especially given the generic response you got. Having a filter which blocks certain things is a far cry from being anti-gun. Obviously its your choice. So you can either not patronize them again, or maybe try and get a real response.

And here is the thread in question: Panera Bread (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=374123&highlight=panera+bread)

akodo
July 24, 2009, 02:53 AM
Regarding MN law and CCW

Here in MN we don't have CCW permits, we have the Personal Protection Act, and the permit allows you to carry concealed or open.

Also in MN, places can post a 'no guns' sign, and when they ask you to leave, you MUST leave or face tresspass plus a few other charges. It is my understanding that while it is discouraged, it is not illegal to enter a 'posted' establishment....it is just illegal to stay when asked to leave.

It seems to me the best way to deal with this is to go to Perkins while you are CCWing, eat your meal, go to the restroom and switch to open carry, go back and sit at the table, read the paper, chat with friends, take advantage of their free coffee and pop refills.

Digest.

Talk.

Have some pie.

At BEST this will get people used to seeing firarms openly carried, and it won't be so shocking.

At MEDIUM you will be asked to leave. If that happens, you get up and leave. If you are being thrown out without completing your dining experience, you don't pay. (However, I'd come prepared with a quick note jotted to the waitress saying she did fine service and you don't blame her for the sillyness of management, and then leave a nice tip)

I suppose the WORST CASE is that the manager would panic, call the cops, and they would come in, be ignorant of the law, and you'd have a lawsuit on your hands.

akodo
July 24, 2009, 03:05 AM
p.s. Regarding Panera Bread's filter.

Most filtering software is set by default to PG or PG-13 type settings, which eliminates sex and violence. Of course, the software designers automatically assume Gun = Violence!

Most likely Panera Bread didn't give any thought to specifically preventing the access of websites dealing with the technical aspects of firearms, nor the legal aspects of firearms, nor the sporting aspects of firearms...nor any aspects of firearms at all.

Your beef should be with the people who develope filtering software. Initially, they blocked a ton of medical related websites (like ones devoted to breastcancer) due to thinking they were porn. There was a quick and loud outcry and things changed.

We need to do the same thing with firearms, demand filtering software target REAL depictions of violence...not just assume firearms = violence.

Look, if Panera Bread wants to have a family atmosphere, and doesn't want a little kid glacing over the shoulder of a guy at the next table and seeing porn, or seeing Rambo mow down the VC with an M-60, that is definately acceptable in my book.

However, thinking that a guy reading about what the proper twist to stablize a 40 grain varmint bullet for his 223 is somehow going to negatively affect the family atmosphere, that is just B.S. and it only happens due to the filtering software

Mr. Bojangles
July 24, 2009, 04:10 AM
Perkins food was crappy anyways...
I'm actually happy for an excuse to never eat there again.

Prince Yamato
July 24, 2009, 04:38 AM
Eat at IHOP. I carry there all the time.

AWorthyOpponent
July 24, 2009, 05:04 AM
Ill be sure to ask this morning after I eat my breakfast...

GodGuns&Guitars
July 24, 2009, 09:13 AM
I've been to a Perkins and never saw a sign posting it as a no gun place. I carried in there no questions asked. How do they know you are carrying if you are doing your part of concealing your firearm is what I ask?

shdwfx
July 24, 2009, 09:18 AM
[Panera's firewall blocks a gun board]...if any of my fellow THR members have a Panera Bread in their neighborhood, you will put them on your "Do Not Patronize" list!

Oh we will?

ArmedBear
July 24, 2009, 10:55 AM
I CC wherever the hell I want to, provided it's legal in that location.

I wouldn't ask if it's okay with a restaurant. If they want to have a policy that differs from the way things are, generally, they can post it themselves, first, without me asking (in which case I'd leave).

If they have a policy of asking people carrying legally to leave, I'd be more than happy to keep the gun well-concealed until AFTER I've eaten, but before I've paid. That's what I'd recommend doing: put the ball in THEIR court. Let them ask you to leave when it would mean they give you a free meal. Boycotts are silly.

Landpimp
July 24, 2009, 11:48 AM
sign..........what sign?, heck if I see a biz that says no guns...I normaly toss another one on me......worst they can do is ask you to leave, if you dont you will get a tresspass. I aint gonna sit someplace that is easy pickins....but then I always sit in certain places so I can see whats going on...

only places I dont are fed, state, PO ect.....just like it says in the regs. If a biz wants to post a sign........good for them, me I dont care, its called CONCELLED.

WNC Seabee
July 24, 2009, 01:01 PM
I keep a stack of letters in my truck to hand out....

Dear Business Owner/Manager,

My wife and I attempted to visit your business today but were turned away by your "No Concealed Weapons" sign. I respect your rights as a property owner/lease holder and will not visit again. I just wanted to let you know a little bit about who you've decided not to do business with. Every legally licensed Concealed Handgun Permit holder that you turn away...

- Has passed a Federal and State Criminal Background Check.
- Is not a Felon.
- Has never been convicted of misdemeanor violent crime or domestic abuse.
- Has attended and passed an 8 hour course mandated by the state covering the responsibilities and legalities of concealed carry.
- Has passed a proficiency test in the use of their firearm.

Can you say the same for your other patrons? Do you know who is a convicted child molester, rapist, or thief? If your patron is a Concealed Handgun Permitee, you can be assured h/she is not.

Of course it would be wonderful if an armed robber saw your "No Concealed Weapons" sign and decided to move on to the next victim, but do you really expect criminals to be deterred by a sign? Your sign only serves to turn away those who care about law, order and civil rights (your right to choose whom to do business with and my right to self-defense).

Best Regards,

Me
My City, St
My email address

22-rimfire
July 24, 2009, 01:10 PM
Haven't been to a Perkins in a long time. Probably won't again unless it is the only place available to conveniently get a bite to eat. Panera Bread is not on my regular visit list. The only reason I would go there is if my wife twists my arm or I need a free Wifi connection for a laptop. But I have that need taken care of too.

djs764
July 24, 2009, 01:43 PM
Eat at IHOP. I carry there all the time

If your IHOPs are anything like the ones here, you'd better be carrying. :neener:

Landpimp
July 24, 2009, 02:16 PM
actaully thats not correct

felons can own guns, if their rights are restored.....as I am living proof of.

no course required in WA

- Has passed a Federal and State Criminal Background Check.
- Is not a Felon.
- Has never been convicted of misdemeanor violent crime or domestic abuse.
- Has attended and passed an 8 hour course mandated by the state covering the responsibilities and legalities of concealed carry.
- Has passed a proficiency test in the use of their firearm

mrokern
July 24, 2009, 04:49 PM
Let me provide background.

MN is indeed a "carry" state. Open or concealed. Your choice.

In this instance, the permit holder was carrying openly.

He was asked to leave. He then covered up. The manager then informed him that concealed or not, no guns were allowed in the restaurant. That was later confirmed by the regional manager.

There are no signs, FYI. It doesn't matter. Without getting into MN law...it doesn't matter.

Why does it matter if I'm concealing anyways? Because I choose not to spend my money with businesses that do not respect my 2nd Amendment rights. That's why it matters.

-Mark

Mark whiz
July 24, 2009, 05:03 PM
A possible reason for their policy may stem from a shooting in their Cocoa Beach,FL location about 20 years ago. Really ugly affair where a PO'd BF or husband shot a waitress down in front of everyone.

Don't neccassarily excuse the ban on CCWs - but at least it might prove some understanding as to why

TexasRifleman
July 24, 2009, 05:33 PM
here is a chain of "upscale" bakery/cafes called Panera Bread. Normally I would go in there and get a cup of coffee and a bagel or pastry and leave. On one particular day, I had time to sit down inside while waiting on a friend. So I got out my iPod Touch that has wi-fi built in. I was able to read my email, check the local weather and so on, but when I went to check into a firearm forum, it said I was blocked by their firewall!

There is much more to the Panera Bread story than you seem to be telling for some reason.

Covered in pretty good detail last year. The letter you quote from Panera Bread is incomplete. Moderator hso wrote them and received a reply.

The blocking of THR is in the default settings of the firewall they buy. If you request access they say they will amend that policy.

Can't really boycott someone who says they will do what you ask.....



http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=374123&highlight=panera+bread

Reply from Panera to hso:

Thank you for contacting Panera Bread. Although we do not encourage anyone to bring a weapon to our bakery-cafés, if you are a duly licensed weapons owner in a state that allows concealed carry, we abide by the law of the state without restrictions. Our bakery-cafés are in compliance with any state laws dealing with this matter. However, the use and/or the brandishing of a gun in Panera, LLC's bakery-cafés is not acceptable.

As part of offering Free WiFi in our bakery-cafés nationwide, it is important that we maintain the community tone and standards that Panera Bread is known for. Panera Bread has partnered with two software companies that maintain lists of categories and sites they recommend for filtering. With millions of sites on the Web, sites sometimes can be blocked IN ERROR. At the request of WiFi users like yourself, these software companies will review and reassess them on an as-needed basis.

If you feel a site has been blocked in error, you may submit a URL rating review request at the WiFi Help Desk for the bakery-café you are visiting. Since there are two WiFi Service providers for our bakery-cafés, we would need to know which café or cafés you visit so that we may provide you with the correct Help Desk telephone number(s).

Please let us know if you have further questions or concerns. Again, we thank you for visiting Panera Bread and using the Free WiFi service that we are proud to provide.

Sincerely,
Paul
Customer Comment Coordinator

That doesn't really sound like a company with an agenda, it sounds like a company with better things to do than spend all their time vetting websites.

Try asking for them to open it up and see what happens.

Boycotts can have an impact, no doubt, but we have to be really sure it is warranted before threatening such things.

ETA: Didn't notice COMPNOR had posted the link to the old thread already, my bad.

bensdad
July 24, 2009, 06:35 PM
E-mail sent to Perkins.

Big Mike
July 24, 2009, 06:37 PM
If you're CC'ing, how do they know to kick you out?

+1 = Exactly. This is the question, if they ask you to leave and you're carrying concealed.

If you're open carrying, then ...

COMPNOR
July 24, 2009, 07:43 PM
Well if you're carrying concealed, and they ask you to leave, me thinks you might not be as concealed as you might wish.

mrokern
July 24, 2009, 07:54 PM
Except, we in no way need to conceal in MN. The company has also said explicitly said that concealed carry is not welcome either.

Your call if you want to spend money with places that don't care for your 2A rights. Me, I'll fight.

-Mark

SigP229R
July 25, 2009, 10:11 AM
WNCSEABEE would you mind if I cut pasted and use this letter ?. This is perhaps the best response I have seen.

jfh
July 25, 2009, 10:45 AM
1. akodo's summary of the MN posting / carry law in #9 is a good one.

2. If MN business--excepting Churches, IIRC--must post a proper sign to fulfill the legal side of a "no guns" policy. But, the carrier must leave if asked, regardless. In my admittedly limited travels since I started carrying, I've seen less and less signs here in MN.

By writing letters, I've gotten a sign or two removed--the "dissatisfied customer" routine does work if the management is not ideologically antigun.

WNC Seabee: That's a good letter to leave / send. I'd like to make a variant for my use here in MN--any objections?

Jim H.

mrokern
July 29, 2009, 10:30 AM
Perkins has rescinded their policy!

They have now decided to not have a general policy against the carry of firearms. Obviously they reserve the right to remove someone for dangerous behavior (as they well should), but they have now stated from corporate that permit holders are welcome in their restaurants, and that the large numbers of emails and phone calls made them rethink their policies.

Congrats, and thanks, everyone!!!!!

-Mark

jfh
July 29, 2009, 10:48 AM
excellent.

Thanks for the update, Mark.

Jim H.

Nate1778
July 29, 2009, 10:49 AM
Our one and only Perkins burned to the foundation due to their smoking policy. Someone took there smoke outside, flicked it to the surrounding mulch, and bam, structure fire.......

scotthsi
July 29, 2009, 01:47 PM
Big deal. Perkins had ****ty food anyway with the "blue hair" clientele. No thanks!

jfh
July 29, 2009, 02:05 PM
scotthsi:

I will point out that the removal of the "No Carry Allowed" signs at Perkins

1) has nothing to do with food quality, and
2) has nothing to do with social styles.

But it has everything to do with eliminating unsafe social situations and discouraging the "guns are bad" mantra from the antigun crowd.

Your opinion on food quality and appearance is not relevant to the discussion at hand, and having an attitude proves nothing on this forum. It detracts from the on-topic conversation.

Keep it in mind.

Jim H.

MT GUNNY
July 29, 2009, 02:10 PM
The owner of the Perkins here in Kalispell, MT Is glad to have Armed Patrons at his restaurant. OC /CC either one he don't Care.

rbernie
July 29, 2009, 02:26 PM
Excellent work to all involved. It is always useful to our cause to pursue making businesses more RKBA-neutral, even if the business in question is not one that you're particularly interested in patronizing.

Activism is useful; ignoring activism opportunities is not.

COMPNOR
July 29, 2009, 04:15 PM
But it has everything to do with eliminating unsafe social situations and discouraging the "guns are bad" mantra from the antigun crowd


So by removing signs, the place is now magically safe? No harm will come to you? It might be a safer place to patronize, but its no way a safe place. Bad things can still happen there.

jfh
July 29, 2009, 04:26 PM
"...eliminating unsafe social situations...."

I agree, I wrote that poorly. IMO, a Perkins w/o a no-carry sign and allowing carry is, however, arguably a safer place to be.

Jim H.

COMPNOR
July 29, 2009, 04:27 PM
I can agree with that.

bnkrazy
July 29, 2009, 11:50 PM
I keep a stack of letters in my truck to hand out....

...snip...

That is an excellent letter. I will get something similar typed up that fits VA law and have some available for businesses I run across while out and about.

ETA: Oh, and awesome job getting the policy changed. If more businesses realized how much they stand to lose by enacting these policies, we would see more and more places change their stance. Especially in this economy. If you decide to stop visiting an establishment because of an anti-gun policy, LET THEM KNOW. Otherwise, they will never know how much that policy affects their bottom line.

bensdad
July 30, 2009, 03:16 AM
The regional manager (Bill, I think?) actually called a bunch of us (who had written or called them) on the phone. He was super nice. This effort worked out perfecty. Well done folks!

denfoote
July 30, 2009, 05:32 AM
If you're CC'ing, how do they know to kick you out?

There's a reason why they call it a CONCEALED WEAPON for God's sake!!

jfh
July 30, 2009, 11:09 AM
denfoote: You're right, of course--at least in the sense if nobody knows you are carrying, then how can they complain? What we have in actions like this is a campaign by carriers to get those signs removed, as a means of minimizing antigun politics.

In the first six-twelve months after our shall-carry law was passed, this posting issue was the political battlefront. Signs were everywhere, including places that could not legally post them. Six years later, the signs have gradually come down, and pro-carry / pro-firearms advocates have succeeded in minimizing antigun actions.

Perkins, for whatever reason, was one of the hangers-on. The only posting these days that I see are in the limited government areas (courts, law enforcement, etc.), some churches, and businesses caught up in antigun ideology.

Jim H.

jfh
July 30, 2009, 11:33 AM
for question or comment:

Dear Business Owner/Manager,

I attempted to visit your business today but were turned away by your "No Firearms allowed" sign. I respect your rights as a property owner/lease holder and will not visit again. I just wanted to let you know a little bit about who you've decided not to do business with. Every legally licensed Handgun-Carry Permit holder that you turn away...

- Has obtained a Minnesota permit to purchase a firearm from his local law enforcement agency.
- Has passed a Federal and State Criminal Background Check.
- Is not a Felon.
- Has never been convicted of misdemeanor violent crime or domestic abuse.
- Has attended and passed an course mandated by the state covering the responsibilities and legalities of concealed carry.
- Has passed a proficiency test in the use of their firearms.

Studies show that permitees are five-to-ten times more law-abiding than the general population.

Can you say the same for your other patrons? Do you know who is a shoplifter, thief, scam artist, or worse? If your patron is a Handgun-Carry Permitee, you can be assured h/she is not a threat.

Do you expect criminals carrying a firearm to be deterred by a sign?

Thank you for reading this note--

Best Regards,



I am a bit rusty on MN law--so any inaccuracies, please tell me for a revision.

Jim H.

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