[gclefton]

From Virginia Citizens Defense League:
http://tinyurl.com/mp72ev

****************************************************************************
1. Exclusive: I met with the gun owner who saved lives in the
Richmond Golden Market shooting last week
****************************************************************************

On Friday I received a surprise call from the gun owner who has been
in the press this week for saving lives at a Richmond store. The gun
owner used a replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2
inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's owner.

He wanted to remain anonymous, but called so that the story could be
set straight, as much of what was in the press wasn't accurate.

Board member Dennis O'Connor and I ended up meeting with him today
(Saturday) at the Golden Market store, where the shooting had taken
place one week earlier.

Besides being able to actually see the layout of the store, Dennis and
I got to see the security videos of the shooting!

We also got to meet the store owner who had been shot twice during the
hold up, but is now back at his store. More on this great man later.

Here is what we know from talking to the gun owner and watching the
videos:

The gun owner (GO) was in the store waiting in line to pay for an item
when the bad guy (BG) came in wearing dark sunglasses and trying to
coverup his face while brandishing a revolver. The BG yelled for
everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately
walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him
twice. The owner then dropped down behind the counter. It wasn't
more than 2 seconds after the BG first walked in the doors that he
shot the store owner.

Those shots at the store owner missed a teenage boy's head by inches.

The GO yelled for the BG to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun. The
BG opened fire on the GO. The GO returned fire, hitting the BG as the
GO dove hard for the floor behind some barrels full of ice and drinks.

The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
innocent man laying prone on the floor. Luckily the BG was too
distracted by the GO to shoot the man. There is no doubt in my mind
that the man would have been shot in cold blood that day if it weren't
for that GO returning fire.

The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by walking up
various aisles and firing shots at the GO as he did so. At one point
cans of tinned meat exploded on a shelf as the BG took a shot at the GO.

What was bizarre was that the BG actually was strutting around like he
owned the place while under fire! As he approached the front of one
aisle, he again pointed a gun at a person on the ground and was about
to execute him, when he was again distracted by the GO.

Finally the GO spotted the BG at the front of an aisle standing in the
open.

Much to his surprise, the GO discovered that when he dove hard for the
floor he had somehow broken the trigger on his gun!

But the gun was a single action, so the GO pushing himself up with one
arm, aimed the gun, pulled the hammer back and let it fly forward -
twice.

Although seriously wounded three times, the BG came at the GO. The BG
tried to grab the GO's gun since the BG's gun was out of ammunition.
A life-and-death struggle began. The GO got a grip on the BG's gun
and the GO hit the BG twice hard on the temple with the 7 1/2" barrel
on his rather heavy gun.

The BG finally broke off the engagement, tried to run out the front
door, but collapsed at the door.

The GO secured the BG's gun and keeping an eye on the now unconscious
bad guy, called 9-1-1.

The BG has now died (he was in critical condition since the shooting).

The police showed up a minute or so after the 9-1-1 call and initially
had everyone in the store at gun point and handcuffed some until they
could figure out who was who.

What really impressed me was that on the surveillance video, the
owner, while shot twice by the BG, was walking around making sure that
all of his customers were OK after the shooting had ended. He only
let himself collapse after he was sure they were OK! Words fail me on
this. I am so glad that he made it. What a dichotomy - a BG who
shoots an innocent person without provocation, almost killing a
teenager while doing so - caring for no one but himself. And then
the store owner who, while seriously wounded, making sure his
customers were OK. Evil exists and so does Good. Both were on
display in those two minutes of terror. Luckily only the bad guy was
killed. The owner was walking with a limp, clearly in some pain. :-(

A lot of people owe their lives to that GO. However, he is having
none of it, saying that he simply did what he had to do.

--

The GO wanted me to share the following points:

* Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

* Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

* More and more BGs are choosing to kill in cold blood to get what
they want. If they can't live the "good life, " then they don't care
if their crimes send them to jail.

* He also noted that fewer and fewer BGs are getting any jail time.

--

Here are my thoughts from watching that tape:

* Talk about a cold-blooded, fast attack where an innocent was shot
without warning! Unbelievable. Situational awareness is really
important. Luck doesn't hurt, either.

* Open carry was an advantage in this case because in the video I saw
just how fast the GO managed to draw his gun and begin to return
fire. You always hear about how open carry is so bad tactically -
you'll be the first one shot, etc. Oh, yeah? The GO had a HUGE gun
in plain sight and he was NOT shot. Who got shot first? An unarmed
store owner.

* I am betting that the BG was on drugs, big time. He was hit with
THREE 45-CALIBER BULLETS, with at least two of those hits causing
grievous injury, and he continued the fight as if he had not even been
hit at all! In fact he was strutting like a peacock who owned the
place as he was walking up and down the aisles trying to get to a
position where he could shoot the GO. As a gun owner, you need to be
prepared for that eventuality and keep shooting the BG in his center
of mass until he stops his attack. Don't think one shot, or even two
shots, are going to do it. And a head shot might well be what it
takes to stop such an attack quickly.

* If you are out of ammunition, a gun does make a great weapon with
which to bludgeon someone in hand-to-hand combat.

* This shooting bolstered both sides of the argument about how much
ammunition one should carry. The good guy got off only four shots (of
course his gun had a broken trigger and that didn't help). The bad
guy got off six shots and ran out of ammunition (thankfully). But in
my mind, and having had some advanced training, I think an extra
magazine for a semi-auto, or a reloader for a revolver, is a good
idea. WIth someone like the BG above, if you run out of ammunition
before he does, he will execute you. Period.

[sundance44s]

Good points ,, glad the bad guy was the only body count ..it could have been much worst . I would feel safe carrying my 45 Colt Peacemaker if it were all I had ...but mine is made in Italy also ..and when seconds count life and death yes it could fail ..So I carry my Springfield 1911 Officers model 45 acp , with an extra mag .
Badguys on drugs are hard to stop ...

[Dave Markowitz]

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Since this is a gun board :-), I wonder what load the good guy was using. E.g., CAS loads are loaded down. Who knows if it would've made a difference if he was using something a bit stouter, if that was the case.

[Ratdog68]

Good on the GO !!! The store owner as well. One less puke in the world is also a good thing. He got what he deserved and begged for.

[Electric Factory]

Wow, what a story. And what an interesting choice of sidearms by the GO as a SD weapon- the M1875 Remington SAA !!

So the GO actually shot the BG three times ? And the BG still had enough steam left to engage the GO physically after being shot [3] times with a 45LC handgun ?

Not exactly what I would have expected performance-wise from the .45LC round.

[sundance44s]

It`s probally something we will never hear about what was the load in the 45`s ? could have been what someone else suggested ( cowboy rounds )
I load my defencive 45 rounds with the flying ashtray bullets .......My choice from looks alone . expansion is a huge factor in stopping power .
I`ve seen deer run a mile from being shot with a 45 hard lead bullet ...45 cal hole in and out both sides ...not much terminal damage at all no bullet expansion .

[rooster59]

Did the GO have to tell the BG to drop the gun?

[Cosmoline]

Clearly not, at least as the story is recounted. The BG had already made his intentions clear and presented an unambiguous threat of imminent death to everyone. It's rather foolish to tell them to drop it in such circumstances, since it just gives the BG more time to kill you. Once the intentions are clear, if you can shoot the guy in the back of the head, do it! A fair fight with a monster like that is not required, nor is it particularly wise.

[Ratdog68]

Did the GO have to tell the BG to drop the gun?
Sadly... as is typical... the "rights" of the "BG's" to be "warned" tends to be a "thank you very much" from our legal system. Although... I agree... an obvious monster like this deserves to have Christmas cancelled without even a hint of the impending send-off to his Maker.

[EnsignJimmy]

Wow, what a story. And what an interesting choice of sidearms by the GO as a SD weapon- the M1875 Remington SAA !!

So the GO actually shot the BG three times ? And the BG still had enough steam left to engage the GO physically after being shot [3] times with a 45LC handgun ?

Not exactly what I would have expected performance-wise from the .45LC round.
Unless you get a good CNS or major artery hit, handguns aren't magical death-machines. The BG in question could've been on drugs, or really psyched up by adrenaline. Clearly, once the BG had lost the appetite for the engagement, the fact that he had three big .45 caliber slugs in him caught up to him in very short order.

[Charles Foxtrot]

.
I wrote the President of the VCDL. He kindly responded that he did not believe the loads the gentleman used were low-powered cowboy loads. However, he did state that the rounds were ball ammo. Solid lead or copper jacketed? Does it really matter? Or can solid lead mushroom somewhat?

He promised to ask the gentleman for more info on the rounds employed.

[BCRider]

I expected this to be more about how the reporters and police were amazed at someone using an "antique" gun for defensive purposes. Oddly this seems to have been very downplayed other than the use of it as a blackjack in the last stages.

I was all set with a comment about "what did they expect? They were good enough to take care of business 120 years ago so why not now?" but now I don't get to use it.

[NobleSniper]

Sounds like he ahd it coming and the 45 LC can still get the job done ;)

[CAMPBELL49T]

I love my BP revolvers,rifles and pistols, But, I use my Springfield XD 40 with 3 magazines (12rd) for carry. The GO did something that must gun carry people might not do. He is a man that should of been on the 6:00 news. He might not think he is he is HERO. But the people in that store think....he is there Guardian Angel. Not only a HERO.
In the news media this would not be good copy. Some nut uses AK or like weapon or any weapon. They are all over it for a week. Shows you what way the Nation going to. And I don't need to tell you all what that is..............

As for me i would like to shake his hand for a job well done.

[KenWP]

I take it when they say the trigger broke them mean the mech. part of the trigger and not the trigger it's self as it would not fire by just thumbing the hammer. We know now why it took a while for DA handguns to get any following.

[Oyeboten]

Cartainly, any RELIABLE Arm one is well familiar with and can shoot well and with reasonable alacrity, one could do well in many (but not all) situations.


I'd have no problem carrying a Colt Dragoon, so long as I had enough time with it, for me, and it, to have proved our proficiency and reliability together.


There are many unknowns with this guys Remington, it's condition, and it's ammunition.

[David E]

The BG yelled for everyone to get down and before anybody could react, immediately walked over to the store owner and in a cold-blooded fashion shot him twice.

The Gun Owner yelled for the Badguy to drop his gun as the GO drew his gun.

The BG opened fire on the GO.

The BG ran towards the back of the store, aiming his gun at an
innocent man laying prone on the floor.

The BG kept trying to get to the front of the store by firing shots at the GO as he did so.

As the BG approached one aisle, he again pointed a gun at an innocent person on the ground and was about
to execute....

I'm glad things worked out......but THIS IS WHY YOU SIMPLY SHOOT the badguy that just shot an innocent person for no reason.

You are NOT required to issue any warning whatsoever. 3 other people almost died as a direct result of the GO "playing fair" in a gunfight and issuing a verbal warning FIRST.

[tinygnat219]

Just saw this thread mentioned in another one:

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?p=5282770#post5282770

This also makes a good argument of why a Back Up Gun (BUG) is important. If your first one somehow mechanically fails, having a BUG could make the difference between life and death.

Hats off to the Gun Owner who managed to stop a murderer. I am not sure how I could have done differently, or better. I am impressed with his bravery under fire.

[ColdDeadHand]

+1 for the good guys.

Good lesson. Gclefton, thanks for the post.

[Bluehawk]

The story never mentions exactly where the BG was hit with the 3 rounds fired into him, nor the exact loading of the round, so it's impossible to speculate the effectiveness of the .45 Colt round, in this case, based on this story alone. If he had been hit in a vital area causing rapid blood loss he never would have been able to strut around in the manner he did...irregardless of whether he was on drugs or not.
In any case, the Gun Owner deserves high praise for his bravery and an award from the city for his actions!
If I were the store owner, at the very least, I would reward him with a matched set of engraved, sequential serial numbered, Remingtons!!!!!

[Oyeboten]

.45 Colt in standard Loadings is a heck of a Whallop for a recipient, from any Revolver...but especially if a longer Barrel and a good Bullet to Bore fit.

So, no idea what loadings or shot placement were in action there with that.

I'd carry my Remington Cap & Ball .44 any time and feel good with Life.

Full House Ballistics with BP and a 250-odd Grain soft Lead Bullet are just as good as .45 Colt, 900s or nudging the 1000 fps mark anyway...and two handed you can get off successive rounds plenty fast too.

If that won't knock a BD down, nothing will..!

[Bluehawk]

A 252 grain bullet at 950fps in a .45 Colt stings the palm of the hand quite well...as it does in my Bisely-Vaquero...and that's a heck of a wallop on the receiving end as Oyeboten mentioned!!!!!
I believe CAS loads are required to be 1,000fps or under...correct?

[Oyeboten]

Who makes a repop Remington Cartridge Revolver chambering the .45 Colt Cartridge?


I have seen originals, and they are really nice...and, usually, fairly expensive, too.


I imagine the CAS rounds likely are in the 600-700 FPS range, and maybe lighter Bullets as well, but dunno, just guessing.


But as was mentioned a couple Posts above...indeed, wishing to be fair in allowing a BG to have a graceful way out, is good Hearted, but, possibly not so good Hearted as ensuring the safety of those still standing, to get to stay that way.

My own Nature would inncline for me to ask the BG to 'drop it', and this is not how one ought to do it at all, especially if the BG has just senselessly shot an innocent person.

[nalioth]

Who makes a repop Remington Cartridge Revolver chambering the .45 Colt Cartridge?Why, Uberti (http://www.uberti.com/firearms/outlaw_frontier_and_police.php), of course :)

[Texas Moon]

Very odd that the trigger broke?

Plus it sounds like he wasn't using good quality ammo.
Probably some Cowboy Action loads. They're pretty weak.
The old .45 Colt loaded up to original specs is a pretty good manstopper.

I know a fellow who carries his CAS gun, a Uberti .45 SAA clone.
He has the one with the 3inch barrel and birdhead grip.
He is VERY good with it.
He loads the W-W Silvertips when CCW'ing.

[nalioth]

Very odd that the trigger broke? The trigger did not break.

During the fooforaw, the trigger guard got bent, and blocked the trigger's return.

[Oyeboten]

Why, Uberti, of course


Thanks nalioth..!

Been wondering who made them.

[mykeal]

These are the two most important points made by the GO:
The GO wanted me to share the following points:

* Buy a quality gun - don't use some cheap $90 gun to protect your
life. He considered his gun to be a good one and even then the
trigger broke under the extreme stress of a life-and-death battle.

* Practice with your gun, get training, and be good with that gun.

Neither has been discussed by the forum members yet.

What do you think - is the gun you carry for self defense reliable and accurate?
Do you practice regularly with THAT gun, and you reliable and accurate with THAT gun?

There's no way of knowing if the GO was proficient with his gun, but it certainly appears he knew his gun and could handle it. But as for the gun itself - hindsight says to me that it was not adequate. I would not carry a gun that could have the trigger out of action by a bent trigger guard. Again, not something you would necessarily know in advance, but now that I've heard about it, it's worth considering. How would my carry gun fare under those circumstances? How would yours?

[nalioth]

I would not carry a gun that could have the trigger out of action by a bent trigger guard.He obviously wan't that comfortable with his revolver, otherwise he could have continued via "fanning".

. . . not that it wasn't effective as a blunt instrument.

[Savvy Jack]

I use an Uberti 1873 Cattleman chambered in 45 Colt as my SD revolver. I carry it in a standard western holster/ammo belt. In Georgia we can open carry with a licence. I also carry a BUG 38spl two shot derringer. Not the best choices but its what I love and am efficient with. I also practice weekly when I can but always a few times a month even if its only a few shots to include drawing the revolver from the holster. Situational awareness is crucial. If your SA sucks then may not get the chance to use your speed and accuracy!

To make a long story short I reload my own ammo. They always say never use reloads for SD but here is why I do!

I use black powder, Goex FFF to be exact and 230gr lead round nose original design bullets from "back in the day". I load, compress xxgr of the powder, to replicate original loads. With my loads in my 5.5" barrel I get 1,104fps @ 675ft/lbs of energy and groupings of 2.5" at 50ft. My best was 1" groupings so its me not the gun on the bad groups. I can not get this performance from smokeless powder without exceeding max pressures for the revolver and lower granulations gets worse groupings. Store bought 45 Colt, say Winchester's 225 GR. SUPREME ELITE™ BONDED PDX1 gets 850fps and 360ft/lbs of energy. Winchester's 255 GR. SUPER-X® LEAD ROUND NOSE gets 860fps @ 418ft/lbs of energy. Winchester's Cowboy loads, gets 312ft/lbs of energy. Again, my loadings replicate original "back in the day" loads of about 1,000 fps from a 7.5" barrel revolver.

Black powder is much louder than smokeless powder and will deafen them. Also the percussion at 15ft will part their hair.

The good news is that if I can not hit my target, I can put out one hellofa smoke screen and run for the door....if I can find it!

My wife carries a Springfiled XDm 40S&W ;-)


BTW I also have a recipe for my 44-40 self defense loads. Here is a video for this one. 964 fps @ 412 ft/lbs of energy using black powder substitute powder and 44 magnum bullets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGCVOUb-57I

[oneiron]

I have the same revolver, except it has a 51/2" barrel. The gun out of the box is very accurate. Without and after market main spring, I would not try fanning. It took the flesh off my heel pad.

[Oyeboten]

Good Guy, tactically, would have been better off simply shooting the BG with no negotiation, given the BG had just shot the Store Manager/Owner even though no resistence had been offered by the victim.

Morally, this is an issue we all need to think about, since it is probably contrary to many of our natures to do.

Certainly having enough familiarity and proficiency with an Arm one is carrying, is a good idea.

"Enough" being a sort of magic or elusive quantity...but, 'enough' means, you do not get lost about function, and, can pretty well manage it without thinking anyway.

And if carrying a 19th Century Arm, or a reproduction of one, one may as well have it loaded with the spunkiest Ammunition it can handle safely...and, not be carrying it with 'Cowbow' Loads.


Two Handed, with a SA, one can definitely get successive rounds off fast by cocking with the second Hand's thumb, while retaining a firm grip with the dominant Hand.


Fanning can break a Hand or other part of the Mechanism on SA Revolvers not made or modified for it...might get away with it, might not.

P.S.

I can not imagine how one would bend in a Trigger Bow, let alone, enough to prevent the Trigger form having travel.

Anyone have any ideas on that?

[BHP FAN]

I have two of the Remington '75's in .45 Colt, and two Remmie '90's in .357. I'd use any of them, if the need arose.

[Oyeboten]

This story does involve several worthy sidelights for discussion and rumination.


- How to manage a condition forthrightly, where a BG shooter is already shooting people.

- Familiarity with one's Carry Arm, and modes of use.

- The advisibility of electing Ammunition which has as much power as the Arm reasonably allows.

- Black Powder as a viable propellent, along with Hand Loads, for Arms suited to it, for SD situations...whether Cap & Ball or Metallic C'tg.

- Rapid Follow-Up shots as something one would do well to bear in mind for being able and willing to do, rather than to shoot 'once' and then pause, look, and evaluate what the BG hapens to think of it, and or where it hit, or how come it did not seem to 'do' anything, etc.

- Making sure the Arm one does Carry, even if just for fun or in an occasional way, is in fact mechanically up to the task, if it is called on in earnest.


All common sense things...and better incorporated into one's mental and habituated thoughts before hand, than to be trying to remember or invent or manage as if for the first time, on some spurr of a moment occasion of heavy earnest.

[KodiakBeer]

I find it hard to imagine how he broke/bent the trigger guard, though he obviously managed it somehow.
It doesn't surprise me that the BG kept going for a while after taking the hits. It takes time to bleed out. Look at the store owner, he was up and moving around after the shooting with two slugs in him also. People expect too much from a handgun round.

[mykeal]

Shot placement - we have no information from the narrative, but the results speak for themselves: inadequate. Discussing the load and whether or not it's sufficient means little without that little item of where the bullet strikes. This goes back to training and proficiency.

[Savvy Jack]

Fanning can be done but the revolvers need work done on them for it to be effective. Hammer work, spring work, etc. Fanning can disrupt the "timing" of the cylinder and not fire as can be seen in the video.

Using two hands on a Single Action Army can result in rapid and accurate fire.

Here is a video I made to demonstrate why one should not fan the hammer on an out of the box SAA UNLESS its a Ruger. The video also shows two handed shooting at the end of the video, along with the cross draw method. Fanning also can result in not hitting the back side of a barn with FULL BLACK POWDER LOADS due to the huge recoil. The gun wants to jump out of your hand with these loads! In the video I am using the 44-40 not the 45 Colt but the results are very close. When I use the cross draw I remove the revolver, cock and shoot with one hand. I remove the revolver from the holster while holding the holster with the left hand keeping the holster from moving. After I fire my first shot my left hand/thumb is now positioned and I use my left thumb to cock the revolver for the final shots. Aiming at my target with both right strong side and cross draw methods. There is no aiming when fanning cept using your brain to tell your hand where to point. It can be done but I am not there yet! In the video I am not shooting from the hip like the "Quick Draw guys do. Those guys are fast and accurate but they use wax bullets which result in little to no recoil which can affect accuracy after the first shot.

I am not a gunfighter nor am I fast by any means. Any time I compete, I am usually last!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8TnFP4nyXw

[vwfool]

Thumbs up to the GO and the 1875 Remington in 45 LC.

[bigbadgun]

just ran across this thread and to answer mykeals question in a round about way.
I work in retail in a not so bad not so great nieghborhood but still at times have large amounts of cash in the store. I have always carried and am going to do so until I cant anymore. here are my requirments for this store and then I will let you all know what I carry. From the front door of the store to the cash registar is exactly 22 feet. very large parking lot between me and the lot are 2 very large plate glass windows. Alot of elderly and younger couples with kids thru the plaza all day.
Ok so that is the setting. The pistol I carry is a 1945 S&W .32 Long snubby. am I wrong in thinking that it has enough stopping power. If need be I want to take out the BG but dont want to hurt any innocents. I have extensive use with this firearm have practiced with it for a long time. Is a good shooter. But after reading the article about the GO and a .45LC hitting the BG 3 times makes me double think my choise in weapons.

[nalioth]

The pistol I carry is a 1945 S&W .32 Long snubby. am I wrong in thinking that it has enough stopping power.It's not the size of the bullet, it's where you put them.

[KodiakBeer]

It's not the size of the bullet, it's where you put them.

Yes, and no... I don't think the issue here was bullet placement, it was simply not enough bullets placed. If he'd had opportunity to put his entire cylinder into the BG's chest, the incident may have ended earlier. Of course, that's easier said than done.

I think the bottom line is that one shouldn't rely on any handgun to put an instant stop to an attack.

[Oyeboten]

If the guy with the Remington had been shooting full power .45 Colt Ammunition, with RNL Bullets, anything not striking the Spine directly, would have tended to have gone right on through.

250 Grain Bullet, 900 - 1000 FPS, is not going to lodge shallowly in the recipient.


Originally Posted by bigbadgun
The pistol I carry is a 1945 S&W .32 Long snubby. am I wrong in thinking that it has enough stopping power.


In the early 1990s I worked part time in a sort of Beatnik revival Coffee House.

It was in a bad neighborhood, and we'd get some ne'r-do-wells stumbling in sometimes trying to press a hustle or sometimes getting a little agitated over wanting handouts or money or hassling customers.

Anyway, good will and firm diplomacy managed...but, I also carried my 1918 Colt New Service, .45 ACP, 2 Inch Barrel, Round Butt 'Snubby'...with Lead Wadcutters.

I was guessing the FPS would be around 600 - 650, and years later, getting a Chronograph, that guess was about right.

An M1911 .45 Auto would be probably about the best choice, and use soft Lead Semiwadcutter Bullets to diminish possibilities of over penetration, or, use some of the new varieties of expanding "SD" type Bullets.

A .32 Snubby is pretty unlikely to make much of an impression in a rhuebarb unless managing to hit something genuinely vital and prompt, like an Eye, or the Brain or Spine...and it may not penetrate well enough with enough energy remaning to impact the Spine well from the front.

[mykeal]

The less power the round has the more important it is to get the right placement. A .22LR will stop someone if properly placed. A .50 BMG will hardly slow down someone if poorly placed. The size and location of one stop opportunities is larger for the 'big daddy' rounds. Your .32 is enough in an aorta, a carotid or femoral artery, brain stem, etc. You can hit the spine through the throat with a .22LR. Can you shoot it well enough to make those hits? If not, get a bigger gun with a 'personal defense' round.

[bigbadgun]

Mykeal I have practiced extensivly with the little bugger I am confident in my ability to hit my target. Again my concern and reason for this particular piece is not wanting the colateral damage. But point taken.