CCI Stinger as a defense round


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Guvnor
July 24, 2009, 09:35 AM
Im trying to decide which .22lr round would be the best for defensive purposes out of my savage rifle. Before anyone gets on me for using a .22 for home defense, this will be a back up weapon.

Has anyone done any penetration testing with the stinger out of a rifle barrel? From what ive read, out of a rifle they expand and fragment pretty violently and dont penetrate very far. I guess this could be an advantage though because it would minimize overpenetration risk and dump all of its energy into the target.

But im wondering if its to the point of having too little penetration to be effective.

I see alot of guys recommend round nose whenever using a .22 for defense, but I would worry about too much penetration with a round nose out of a rifle.

Any other suggestions?

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rbernie
July 24, 2009, 09:44 AM
Will your rifle cycle the Stringers reliably, one hundred percent of the time?

Dave Markowitz
July 24, 2009, 09:45 AM
I would use CCI Mini Mag solids. As you noted, Stingers out of a rifle will fragment and cause shallow wounds. WRT to penetration, even from a rifle Mini Mags are unlikely to overpenetrate on an adult human.

mgkdrgn
July 24, 2009, 01:01 PM
You should be able to find some good info here.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/oldindex.html

OVER penetration with 22lr is an un-issue. If I were to go 22lr, I'd be sorely tempted to use the Aguila Sniper SubSonic 60 grain lead round nose as I get good penetration and a bullet 1/2 again as heavy as the standard 40gr. And, if it happens to tumble/keyhole, so much the better ... bigger hole.

robphillips
July 24, 2009, 01:17 PM
I would sure as hell hate to get shot with a 22.

Carl N. Brown
July 24, 2009, 01:25 PM
Aguila Sniper SubSonic 60 grain lead round nose

Some people read "sub sonic" and think "CB cap" (29gr bullet at 700 fps)--Aguila .22 SSS 60gr has a velocity just under the sound barrier--900 to 950 fps--total muzzle energy about the same as a high-velocity 40 gr .22 long rifle or 120 ft/lb. From a 2" autoloading pistol barrel it shoots through 2" pine boards as easily as .22 Stinger and .25 ACP.

I would recommend testing the .22 SSS in a gun before relying on it. Some autos and manual actions shoot it just fine. Others wont stablize the long 60 gr bullet or have problems ejecting the .22 short case the SSS long bullet is loaded in. I got two pistols and a rifle that love it, and at least one rifle that jams every time (and it's a bolt action, failure to eject). Aguilla SSS priming is as consistent as .22 Stinger: I have not had failure to fire with either, but a lot of failure to fire with cheaper ammo.

Kernel
July 24, 2009, 03:15 PM
I'd go with a full 40 gr high velocity round (not a 32, 38 or 36). Like the Winchester Power Point. Lighter bullets don't penitrate as well, and heaver bullets are too slow. I've seen some testing of the 60 gr Aguila, and was not impressed. IMO 40 grain is just right, Goldielocks.

Vern Humphrey
July 24, 2009, 03:34 PM
I would sure as hell hate to get shot with a 22.
I would sure as hell hate to get shot with a pellet gun. But I would hate it even more if I had to face a 6' 4", 240 lb home intruder hopped up on meth or some other drug, and all I had was a .22.

ArmedBear
July 24, 2009, 03:36 PM
Velocitors over Stingers.

The Velocitor comes out of a rifle at over 1400 fps, but it's still got a 40 grain bullet.

That's what's in my BUG (which is probably good for 900 fps, not 1400).

60 grain subsonics are a good idea, but as others have said, make sure they cycle.

In a lever gun, they'd be great.

ArmedBear
July 24, 2009, 03:38 PM
I would sure as hell hate to get shot with a pellet gun. But I would hate it even more if I had to face a 6' 4", 240 lb home intruder hopped up on meth or some other drug, and all I had was a .22.

Well, yeah.

The OP said it's for backup only. I'd rather put 5 Velocitors in said home intruder's neck (not that hard with a .22 rifle), than just stand there with my...

Lovesbeer99
July 24, 2009, 07:56 PM
Why don't you test it and let us know. You can by sheet rock at HomeDepot for under 6.00 and cut it into 20 small pieces and secure some of them together in differnt thicknesses.

1 ply, 2 ply, 3 ply, etc and see how deep you get a 20 feet, 10 feet, etc.

Guvnor
July 24, 2009, 08:13 PM
Why don't you test it and let us know.

I wish I could! But I live in a a dense suburban area so that makes it impossible to do stuff like that. No ranges around here allow that kind of stuff either.

I envy you guys that live out in the country who can just walk out your back door and shoot!

Thanks for the suggestions everybody. I might just stick with round nose mini-mags since they always function flawlessly.

bad_aim_billy
July 24, 2009, 09:09 PM
I would go with Aguila Super Maximum IF they cycle reliably. Aguila's quality control isn't exactly stellar.

It's pretty impressive what a 30 grain HP coming out at 1750 can do to a milk jug filled with water...

But if you can't test, probably mini-mags would be the logical choice. :)

Bill B.
July 24, 2009, 09:26 PM
I would use CCI Mini Mag solids.

Out of all the .22 ammo I have shot over the years I have never had a dud or squib load from a CCI Mini Mag. I haven't had one from the CCI Stingers either for that matter but I have shot a whole heck of a lot more of the Mini Mags!

tactikel
July 24, 2009, 09:34 PM
I would suggest penetration over velocity. Most .22s are designed for small game. A solid or hollow point at standard velocity may be a better SD round that a 40gr screamer.

RatDrall
July 24, 2009, 10:03 PM
Stingers are 30 grains.

Try the Velocitors, which are CCI's high velocity load with a 40 grain bullet.

Marlin 45 carbine
July 24, 2009, 10:07 PM
another vote for velocitors.

Kernel
July 24, 2009, 10:25 PM
Power Points are about half the price of Velocitors, when bought in bulk. Cheap enough to plink with. Velocitors are nice, King of performance, but just to expensive to shoot, to the point where you need a scoop shovel to clear away the empties.

Guvnor
July 24, 2009, 10:33 PM
Well I did some more searching and found some ballistics data on Stingers if you guys are interested.

With a 2.4 inch barrel handgun they fail to expand and seem to behave like a round nose. Around 1000fps and penetrated about 11-12 inches. http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs27.htm

With a 5.5 inch barreled Ruger 22/45 they get up to around 1300 fps...expand nicely but start to fragment a bit, and penetrate about 8-9 inches of ballistics gel. http://www.firearmstactical.com/test_data/22lr/cci22-32stgr-r2245.htm

This leads me to believe that from a rifle barrel with the round getting up to full speed, the bullet will probably fragment severely. This would probably leave a very serious wound, but im not sure how well it would penetrate.

Any thoughts?

I will definitely look for some Velocitors. They seem to be a good compromise between penetration, energy, and expansion. For the time being, ill probably stick with the mini mags.

MovedWest
July 24, 2009, 10:47 PM
I switched from mini-mags to stingers for HD a few months ago when I saw the ballistic information listed in CCI's website. Out of the barrel and up to 50yds the transferred energy of the stingers is more than than the maxi-mags. I figure at the likely HD distance of <20ft I'll do more damage with the stingers.

That is of course only if my 44magnums, 12ga, and 9mm run out of ammo... :evil:

If you have a really enormous house or expect a defensive distance of longer than 50yds the mini-mags might be a better choice.

-MW

GRIZ22
July 25, 2009, 12:12 AM
Out of all the .22 ammo I have shot over the years I have never had a dud or squib load from a CCI Mini Mag. I haven't had one from the CCI Stingers either for that matter but I have shot a whole heck of a lot more of the Mini Mags!

This has been my experience also. CCI Mini Mags are what I load in my Beretta 21 or S&W 61 i sometimes carry as a backup.

Sunray
July 25, 2009, 12:23 AM
When the hyper-velocity .22's first came out, a few of the guys that buzzed around the gun shop I worked in then(early 80's) did some tests on an M1 Steel helmet. Don't know at what range or what firearm. Anyway, the CCI Stinger and Winchester Expeditor went through one side. The Remington Yellow Jacket went right through both sides.
"...With a 2.4 inch barrel handgun..." Not enough velocity. Hyper-velocity .22's are made for rifles, not handguns.

Ratshooter
July 25, 2009, 12:40 AM
Sunray said it right. Try the Yellow Jackets. I used to shoot a lot of 2 liter coke bottles full of water with a 4" Ruger 22 auto. The YJ loads always expanded and were more explosive than stingers.

Out of a rifle barrel they really expand. Also some 22 autos are not designed for stingers. I believe the marlin model 60 manual says to not use them. The problem is the longer case.

Some people poo poo the 22 for defense. I am not one of them. Its not my first choice but if its all I have I do not feel unarmed. With the "no recoil" nature of a 22 auto I can unload that 17 round mag in just a couple of seconds and put every round in a 3" circle at 15 yards. I doubt anyone will press an attack very far with a chest full of 22s.

Sunray
July 25, 2009, 01:01 AM
"...Try the Yellow Jackets..." Yep, but you do have to try a box of each to find the one that shoots the most accurately out of your rifle. Just like any other .22.
"...a chest full of 22s..." Not something I'd want to rely on.

rangerruck
July 25, 2009, 02:27 AM
what is your action? if semiauto, I would not use stingers or velocitors, they will tear up a semiauto. The absolute fastest, most devestating round in a true 22lr case, is the Aguila interceptor. shoots a 40 grain bullet to almost 1500 fps.
I shot some at a 4x8 post once, and the blow holes out the backside were stupendously impressive!!! also a nice round would be the cci SGB bullets; they are made to shortly penetrate, then break off into I think 3 big pieces, ouch!
next i would choose the Aguila sniper 60 grainers, that is a 60 grain 22 bullet, that is a solid lead chunk, very ouchy!!!! but if you have a semi auto, chances are this last one will not work for you, so try it first, to make sure it is reliable.

I would not put to much worry into penetration for a 22; they are going to penetrate, don't worry about that- the biggest prob is their expansion or fragmentation. most won't do that for jack, so either look at the above, for doing their jobs well, or get something in a nice hollow point. Not that they will expand or fragment a lot, they won't , but they will a little. and all 22 rounds penetrate far better than most peeps give them credit for.
there is a thread on here, down a page or two, I think , about 22 rounds, and penetration through aluminum plane sheeting.
Skin and clothes just ain't aluminum sheeting either.

As far as penetration goes; you want something that yaws or breaks apart, as soon as possible.
this is the primary reason the russians switched to the 545 round. the 762 base round does not
start to freak out until about 9 inches of penetration, which is almost all the way through a dude anyway, most of the time. the 545 starts it's yaw, at about 4 inches, and has a much higher kill percentage ratio at all distances out to 300 yds, as compared to a 762 round.
but the trade off is penetrating semi hard stuff; the 762 will do it with ease.
Since we are talking about home defense, I am assuming your attacker will not be wearing body armor
or carrying steel plates in front of them. So a speedy round, with a hollow point, or hollow but covered tip, will do the job just fine here.

Sunray
July 25, 2009, 02:37 AM
"...they will tear up a semiauto..." Nonsense. Ever hear of a law suit involving a semi-auto being damaged by any .22 ammo?
"...most won't do that for jack..." That's nonsense too. Stuff a cardboard box full of newspapers and shoot any .22 into it.

maroast
July 25, 2009, 02:45 AM
"...a chest full of 22s..." Not something I'd want to rely on.


Not even if it's 18 rounds with one trigger pull?




http://lh3.ggpht.com/_Z4ehflEmhuc/Smqa90XJUkI/AAAAAAAAA50/5isyVdJE8bo/s800/40mmBeehiveRound.jpg

Guvnor
July 25, 2009, 09:08 AM
The rifle in question is a Savage mark II bolt action. Again, a horrible choice for defense but this is a BUG and I can work the bolt pretty fast. The gun will pretty much feed anything.

It sucks that .22lr is so hard to find right now. I have yet to find a store that sells any aguila stuff. Locally all I can seem to find are the mini-mags, stingers, velocitors, and federal round nose bulk stuff. I will try and keep an eye out for those yellow jackets and give them a try.

Kernel
July 25, 2009, 02:15 PM
Don't even try the Winchester Power Points. Leaves more for me.

Now, if I could only get all the Prairie Dog shooters to reject their near universal use of Power Points, then I'd be set.

EAJ
July 25, 2009, 02:45 PM
Velocitors over Stingers

Or perhaps the new Winchester Super-X Hyper Speed HP (http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2009/07/04/winchester-hyper-speed-hp-and-new-555-round-bulk-pack/) 22LR round.

Moo 2 Drvr
July 25, 2009, 03:31 PM
Another vote for the Velocitor. I have had nothing but good experience with CCI and while I like and use the Minimag and the Small Game Bullet, my favorite is the Velocitor. Stingers are reliable, but not all guns respond well with them - the Marlin 60 being one such example.

By the way, I use the Aguilla SSS 60 grain bullets in my Colt 6920 with a Ciener conversion. The 1 in 7 twist stabilizes these bullets much better than my Marlin 60 or my Ruger 10/22, for what it's worth.

61chalk
July 25, 2009, 06:30 PM
A THR member posted awhile back he dropped a intuder with one shot to the chest from his GSG-5 .22LR, the intruder had a 9mm an never got a shot off off. Guess the shot placement experts really do have a case.

kinnykins
August 15, 2009, 10:59 PM
Aguila Super Maximum 30 grain HP comes out at 1750fps and that equals 202lbs of muzzle energy bout the same as a 380acp . Shallow wounds , Hog Wash .. A bullet like that will blow out a large cavity while "fragmenting" that will cause massive shock & bleeding .
I use them in my 3" barreled back up pistol and from around 3 feet away I shot it at a 2X4 with a section of floor carpet on it to mimmick clothing . After the shot there was a section about the size of a half dollar that looked like splintered tooth pics and I thought
it went thru .. but it was just short of going thru ...I dug it out and I'd guess there was 80-90% of the bullet weight left . And Aguila rimfires are now Eley Primed
Velocitors went about half way thru ...
Stingers were close ...
I'd love to find the Aguila Interceptor in a hollw Point ..
But as mentioned above shoot a lot of what you want to use before relying on it for self defense ,cuz the baddest bullet in the world ain't gonna help ya if it won't function 100% in your weapon .
Like I said the Aguila is my back up pistol ... My main carry is a Para Ordnance Wart Hog the holds 11 rounds of 45acp There ain't no replacement for cubic displacement .

Gunfighter123
August 15, 2009, 11:07 PM
Another vote for the Rem. Yellow Jackets.

BushyGuy
August 15, 2009, 11:19 PM
i use CCI 40gr high velocity bullets in my .22lr semi-auto rifle, i also have soms tingers but i think the CCI 40 gr solids would do a better job in penetration then the stingers.

Float Pilot
August 15, 2009, 11:25 PM
Reliability and accuracy are the two key functions that any undersized cartridge must achieve to make up for other shortcomings.

I carry a little 8 shot S&W 22 Airlite revolver in my aircraft survival vets for shooting small critters. After shooting every type of 22 LR ammo possible I found that the CCI stingers were the best from that particular gun for accuracy.

On the other hand two of my bolt action 22 rifles hate Stingers and just about everything else, while only likiing the CCI mini-mag hollowpoints.

For example in my scoped Norinco bolt action 22, ($60 at a yard sale) I can shoot 10 CCI Mini Mags into one hole at 25 yards and hit clay pigeons at 100 yards.
The other types of ammo, including the Velocitors, were making 1 inch (plus) groups at 25 yards.... from that particular rifle...

I find that after shooting 300 rounds of the 60 grain sub-sonic Aguila ammo in various firearms, that I wasted my money on poorly made ammunition that is lacking in accuracy and quality control.

klayton
August 16, 2009, 05:28 AM
this topic is real ..... uh well .... out there!!!! you guys are getting into which 22 round is for self defense..... none..... i am maybe stepping on some toes here but that is NOT a self defense round i say if you dont have money to buy a proper pistol sell the 22 and get a highpoint pistol .... bout 150 bucks most reliable cheap ugly thing you can buy. but will work as self defense back up

Carl N. Brown
August 17, 2009, 08:42 AM
The problem is not so much that they "tear up" semi-autos.

I have guns that work well with Stinger, but one that won't shoot Stinger accurately (4-5 inch groups at 60 yds when other brands give 2-3 inch groups). The Stinger case is longer than standard long rifle (.71 inch versus .59 inch long) and may give ejection problems (the case is about the size of the obsolete Extra Long that feel between .22 Long and .22 Long Rifle in the history of rimfire development).

I have guns that work well with Aguila SSS 60 grain bullet in a .22 short case. I have other guns that give ejection problems with Aguila SSS Sub Sonic Sniper (and dont feed or function with .22 short so its hard to check if the short case or something else is the problem.

If a .22 long rifle semi-auto jams because it won't eject the longer Stinger case or if it won't eject the short Aquila SSS case you may have the same type of damage you get from the bolt trying to close after failure to eject with squib loads with bulk pack ammo.

Even SAAMI compliant ammo will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and guns vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and by wear from use. Sometimes the key to reliability is a match of brand and style of ammo to a specific gun, and what ammo works in your gun might might not work well in mine, and vice versa. Range or field testing of the gun with different brands is more important than user recommendation or maker advertisements.

CCI Stinger as a defense round? If positive and consistent ignition is a factor, Stinger rates high with me for consistently going Bang and going Bang with no squibs.

Art Eatman
August 17, 2009, 09:06 AM
The OP said "backup gun", so it's foolish to knock the .22 as a defensive weapon. It beats a loud scream, even when it's not the first choice. You use what's available, what's already on hand.

"Self defense" to me is pretty much close-range, so group size isn't particularly important. We're talking minute-of-head or minute-of-torso on Bad Guys, not head shots on squirrels.

Odds are, most any high-speed hollow-point will work as well as any other. I'd figure on needing more than one shot, regardless. In the FWIW department, I was surprised by the size of the exit wound on a rock squirrel from using QuickShock. A bunch of insides wound up outside. (QuikShok? I never can remember. :))

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