Short-barreled muzzleloader need an SBR stamp?


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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 24, 2009, 12:25 PM
Or not? I could dig a 12" frontstuffer! :D

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PTK
July 24, 2009, 12:31 PM
Nope, not by Federal law. Most states are the same, though some states/counties treat them as firearms.

Carl N. Brown
July 24, 2009, 12:34 PM
Last I checked (and that was US ATF guidelines for import to US) muzzleloaders with "traditional" iginition system--No 10 or 11 percussion cap, musket cap, matchlock, wheellock or flintlock--are exempt from NFA restrictions. The export guide did treat in-line and 209 primer fired muzzleloaders as "modern guns" as far as barrel length and overall length.

You can have a "Confederate Calvary" reproduction shotgun (double barrels under 18 inches) or a Howdah 20ga pistol as a caplock or flintlock without a NFA tax stamp, but not with a "modern" ignition system (in-line or 209 shotgun primer).

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 24, 2009, 12:41 PM
Anyone got a link to how various states define the word "firearm"?

Got two different answers; PTK you're saying the inline vs. percussion doesn't matter right?

We also have to remember that import restrictions are often different from domestic restrictions.

Hmmm, any link to a BATF letter / ruling on this subject?

What about a 20 ga percussion Howdah "SBR" with a buttstock? :)

rcmodel
July 24, 2009, 12:46 PM
Perfectly legal if you don't run afoul of state or local laws.

You would have to do your own research in the state you live in, and I don't know where that is cause you don't say on your sig header.

rc

deadin
July 24, 2009, 01:44 PM
Just to add to the above....
Some places consider a BB gun to be a firearm under local law.

Read up on your locality!

PTK
July 24, 2009, 01:45 PM
Anyone got a link to how various states define the word "firearm"?

Got two different answers; PTK you're saying the inline vs. percussion doesn't matter right?

We also have to remember that import restrictions are often different from domestic restrictions.

Hmmm, any link to a BATF letter / ruling on this subject?

What about a 20 ga percussion Howdah "SBR" with a buttstock? :)
No; inline counts as a modern gun, oddly - but only when it's cut down.

As for a 20ga percussion, they're already sold as pistols (though smoothbore and over .50cal), adding a stock wouldn't hurt.

TexasRifleman
July 24, 2009, 02:00 PM
No; inline counts as a modern gun, oddly - but only when it's cut down.

This one is fuzzy and the laws/interpretations seem to be in conflict. The law says one thing, and ATF says differently, surprise surprise.

27 CFR 478.11 says:

Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of any firearm described in paragraph (a) of this definition if such replica (1) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

So according to that inlines are not "antiques" since they are not a replica of an old design but a modern design.

Firearm. Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics.


But, the ATF has an "NFA Handbook" that says:

Section 2.2 Antique firearm. Firearms defined by the NFA as “antique firearms” are not subject to
any controls under the NFA.22 The NFA defines antique firearms based on their date of manufacture
and the type of ignition system used to fire a projectile. Any firearm manufactured in or before 1898
that is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed
ammunition is an antique firearm. Additionally, any firearm using a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap or similar type ignition system, irrespective of the actual date of manufacture of the firearm, is also
an antique firearm.

That's from :

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter2.pdf

But, in the actual tax code (since NFA is a tax law) it says:

26 U.S.C. 5845(a), (g):

Antique firearm The term ''antique firearm'' means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

So that actual NFA law doesn't exclude modern designs using percussion caps, but the ATF interprets it that way in their NFA handbook.

As usual, gun laws are stupid, and the ATF should be disbanded :)

Oyeboten
July 24, 2009, 02:27 PM
So..under the NFA regulations, a regular, 12 Ga break-open, Hammerless Double-Barrel Shotgun made in or before 1898, can have Barrels shortened to less than 18 inches without need of a Tax Stamp?

Even though it's Ignition System is identical to modern versions?(Albeit, using Black Powder Shells...)


Or..?

TexasRifleman
July 24, 2009, 02:31 PM
So..under the NFA regulations, a regular, 12 Ga break-open, Hammerless Double-Barrel Shotgun made in or before 1898, can have Barrels shortened to less than 18 inches without need of a Tax Stamp?

Even though it's Ignition System is identical to modern versions?(Albeit, using Black Powder Shells...)

Doesn't seem so. NFA says it excludes "any firearm not designed or redesigned for using conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition" AND being made before 1898.

Has to be both, not just one.

The shotgun you describe would only meet one of the requirements, that of being made before 1898, but it would not meet the other.

Gun laws are stupid.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 24, 2009, 03:55 PM
Additionally, any firearm using a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap or similar type ignition system, irrespective of the actual date of manufacture of the firearm, is also an antique firearm.

Ya don't sayyyyyy....Would this a good first candidate to cut to 10" or 12"?


http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/pod/horizontal-pod.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/pod-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat20712-cat601141&rid=&indexId=cat601141&navAction=push&masterpathid=&navCount=3&parentType=index&parentId=cat601141&id=0054127

Of course, it'd need a retro-fitted pistol grip and folding stock, too! :eek:



Or maybe this one in .72 cal, maybe 14":

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0006563210038a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&No=18&Ntk=Products&QueryText=kodiak&sort=all&Go.y=0&_D%3AhasJS=+&N=0&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form23&Go.x=0&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1

:D

HKUSP45C
July 24, 2009, 06:11 PM
Just to add to the above....
Some places consider a BB gun to be a firearm under local law.

Read up on your locality!

Where? I am going to have to ask for a cite.

Holy *&^*&%&%$^&%$^%)*&(*&)_(*)(&^*%&^$^%#&#&^%*( ..... huh ... huh ... huh ... (*&(*&)(*&)(^^%$#%$#%&$&#%^@#^%(*&^(*^!!!!!!!!!11111oneoneoneeleventy

I should have known, NJ


"Firearm or firearms" means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, machine gun, automatic or semi-automatic
rifle, or any gun, device or instrument in the nature of a weapon from which may be fired or ejected any solid projectable ball, slug, pellet, missile or bullet, or any gas, vapor or other noxious thing, by means of a cartridge or shell or by the action of an explosive or the igniting of flammable or explosive substances. It shall also include, without limitation, any firearm, which is in the nature of an air gun, spring gun or pistol or other weapon of a similar nature in which the propelling force is a spring, elastic band, carbon dioxide, compressed or other gas or vapor, air or compressed air, or is ignited by compressed air, and ejecting a bullet or missile smaller than three-eighths of an inch in diameter, with sufficient force to injure a person.

My good grief .... what is this poor country coming to? D.C. can define a machine gun any way it wants ... New Jersey can define a firearm anyway it wants ... the socialists want to define "rich" any way they want ...

Pardon me, I'm feeling a bit ill.

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