.270 win. compared to 300 win. mag


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handle02
July 24, 2009, 06:03 PM
I would like to know the biggest differances between the two cartridges.First,I already know the 300 is a bigger bullet and a mag.That is not the kind of differances i'm talking about.I'm talking about knockdown power,effective killing power out to longer distances,and overall cost,reliability,and practicality of these cartridges for deer and larger sized game hunting.The reason I'm wanting to know is because I have found the rifle I want,but it's in .300 win. mag and I think it's a little too much gun for what I need.The gun shop I found this rifle at said they could order the .270,but it would be about a month before it got here(and I want it NOW):D.I live in TN and 300 to 400 yard shots are probably the longest shots I will encounter in the areas that I hunt.I have hunted out west a few times and I do plan on going back,but for the most part I will only be hunting in TN.Thanks in advance for everyones input!!

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NCsmitty
July 24, 2009, 07:10 PM
Your not really making a honest comparison, because the 300 Win Mag holds about 20 gr more powder than the 270 Win. Of course it has more "knock-down" power.
Is the 300 WM more than you need for what you plan to hunt, maybe? Will it do the job? Certainly!
The 270 is no slouch though, as it too shoots flat with plenty of performance to take most game in the lower 48. It also recoils less, and usually costs less if buy your ammo.
It's your choice at this point.
What brand rifle are we talking about?


NCsmitty

handle02
July 24, 2009, 08:06 PM
The new Savage weather warrior with the accutrigger and accustock.Also,as of now I don't reload,but I would like to in the near future.With that being said the 300 might be a better choice because I have several other 30 cal rifles.I'm just afraid of ruining alot of meat with something like the 300, I always eat what I kill.I've already ruined one deer I shot last year with my old .270 using balistic tip ammo it just tears up everything in it's path.

NCsmitty
July 24, 2009, 08:20 PM
The Savage is a nice rifle to consider. If you already have 270, then the choice of the 300 WM makes more sense.
The ballistic tip bullets work better at long range, but inside of 200yds, the high velocity rounds tend to make the ballistic tips fragment more than necessary.
It will be a problem with the 300 WM too, so a bonded bullet or a Partition would be a better choice for all around use, if they shoot well enough in your rifle. A lot less blood-shot meat.


NCsmitty

handle02
July 24, 2009, 08:27 PM
Well smitty thats the problem I'm running into I have a .270 that I absolutely hate a S&W i-bolt and thats going to get traded toward the new savage.Thats why I started this thread to maybe help me decide.

52grain
July 24, 2009, 08:30 PM
It looks like .300 Win mag is about $6 per box more expensive than .270 Win. These are two fairly different cartridges, what do you plan to hunt with it?

.38 Special
July 24, 2009, 08:39 PM
For my money, the .270 is a better cartridge for almost all American hunting. I would not use it for large bears, but I would rather not use the .300 for that purpose either. For just about anything else, the .270 will kill as effectively as the .300, and will be much more pleasant to use.

NCsmitty
July 24, 2009, 08:41 PM
Why do you hate the I-bolt that you have? Are you having problems with it, not accurate?
They seem to be a fairly good rifle based on what other owners say about them on THR.

I too have a 270 and a 308 Norma Mag which is nearly a ballistic twin to the 300 WM. I haven't shot either in a couple years, been mostly shooting my 6.5x55.


NCsmitty

jmr40
July 24, 2009, 10:08 PM
Other than kicking a lot harder the differences are a lot less than many realize. According to Hornady's website the best 130 grain 270 loading has an identical drop at 500 yards as the 150 grain 300 win mag and the 270 has only 150 less foot lbs of energy. Going to heavier bullets will give the 300 more energy at longer range, but more drop. With todays premium bullets most animals you hit with either will never know the difference.

Neither would be my first choice for large bears but with 200+ grain bullets at shorter ranges I would give an edge to the 300

nathan
July 24, 2009, 10:17 PM
Magnums are a waste of energy unless necesssary. It was all hype and bs back and people were buying every magnum caliber I remember back in the 90s. Then they sell them off once they realized they can t handle the recoil no more. Ammo cost more too.

In fact 270 and the 3006 is more than enough in any game in CONUS.

handle02
July 24, 2009, 11:21 PM
Thanks to all and especially you jmr40 those are the kinda hard facts I was looking for.NCsmitty the resons I hate the i-bolt is 1.I sold a darn good ruger to buy this i-bolt that I thought I would like better.2.It likes to try to load 2 rounds into the chamber at once jamming everything up.3.The bolt is not very smooth it's kinda rough and I've lubed the piss out of it.4.The spring in the mag is weak towards the barrel so when you load it the bullets do some kinda weird nosedive thing that causes problems trying to load other rounds on top of them.:banghead:

bpl
July 24, 2009, 11:39 PM
I'd get the .270

BENELLIMONTE
July 25, 2009, 12:52 AM
Normally my rule of thumb for hunting big game in Idaho; 270 Win with 150 grain Nosler Partition for buck mule deer & cow elk, 300 Win mag with 200gr Nosler Partitions for bull elk, and in areas with trophy size bull elk I would use my 338 Win mag with 250gr Nosler Partitions.

Arkel23
July 25, 2009, 01:32 AM
Go with the .300 win mag, it's just a better overall caliber, like you said bigger bullet, more knock down power. It's more effective out to longer ranges and IS NOT TOO MUCH FOR DEER. Where I live in SC .300 win mag ammo is only $1 more than .270. It's the same also around my house in Metro ATL.

rangerruck
July 25, 2009, 02:16 AM
the recoil diff, if you have not shot a 300 winmag, will startle you. I suggest you go to a range, ask about; if anyone is shooting one, or something similar, and try it. make sure you take more than 1 shot, take 5 shots, and tell the dud e you will give them 5 bucks for the rounds. Shoot at least 5 rounds, then see if you will like that recoil. Me? the advantages of the 300 are just not enough over a nice 140 or if handloading , a 160 grain 270, with some nice bonded bullets, or even plain jane softpoints, will seriously drop them fast, and all the way out to 500 yds, if need be.

bang_bang
July 25, 2009, 02:40 AM
I own both calibers...favor the 300 Win Mag (just a personal preference).

The .270 with 130 grain bullets has around the same ballistics as the 300 Win Mag with 180 grain bullets at ranges around 400 yards I do believe. That is due to the 20+ grains of powder in the case, thus resulting in one hell of a beating upon pulling the trigger.

Both calibers are quite versatile, but I would have to give the 300 Win Mag the win for being most flexible. If you reload, you'll find that both of these cartridges show their full potential on the reloading bench. I've got some mild loads for my 300 Win Mag with some 110 grain HP's setting on top...nasty little rounds for groundhogs, but more than enough for deer. I've also got a load for 165 grain GameKing SP's for some serious deer hunting in the Christmas trees around here.

handle02
July 25, 2009, 02:59 AM
To answer klineia deer,pigs,and maybe coyote will be game mostly hunted.I have shot 300's before and OH YEAH:what: they have more recoil than any 270 I have shot,but it doesn't bother me too much as of right now,though in a few years of shooting the 300 might change the way I feel about it.Like I said in an earlier post I don't reload now,but I would like to start within the next year or so.Keep it coming guys everyone is bringing some good opinions/facts to the table it seems about 50/50 right now.

surjimmy
July 25, 2009, 04:00 AM
Get a Tikka, made by Sako but for under $500. I have one in the 300wsm and it will put 3 shots inside a penny at 100 yards using Winchester Power Points.

SuperMidget
July 25, 2009, 11:45 AM
First off, neither the .270 WCF nor the .300 Win Mag have anything resembling knockdown power. You may get lucky more often than not and bust up enough on a calm, relaxed deer to cause it to give up, but knockdown power it ain't.

Unless you're planning a hunt for the big bears on Kodiak, I wouldn't bother looking at a magnum anything. There are plenty of cartridges that do the same work and are far less obnoxious to shoot. Make no mistake, the .300 WM is going to be obnoxious and a half to shoot, but it doesn't hurt regardless of the fear-mongering you hear about it.

If your heart is set on a .300 WM though, by all means get it. I'm the last one to try and talk you out of a cartridge that makes no sense for its intended use. But if you're purely looking for something to get the job done, anything from .243 WCF or 6mm Rem on up will do what you want.

bang_bang
July 25, 2009, 02:39 PM
Keep it coming guys everyone is bringing some good opinions/facts to the table it seems about 50/50 right now.

I think that you can't go wrong with either caliber. It might come down to your personal preference deciding on what caliber your next rifle will be.

Bigfoot
July 25, 2009, 04:11 PM
It's a tough call because the 270 will kill Elk just fine with today's premium bullets. For a do-it-all caliber I do prefer .30 cal though because the Roosevelt Elk around here get pretty big.

Since you will reload buy a pound of Accurate-5744 powder from Midway. It'll give that 300 WM 30-30 to 30-06 recoil. Use the 125 gr Ballistic Tip at around 2800 for even less recoil, at that velocity the BT will penetrate shoulders. Check out the load data almost halfway down this link.

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/iB_html/uploads/post-71-26082-2001_comp_guide_combined_file.pdf

Compare those velocities and grains of powder used to 30-30 and 30-06 load data. With the thick recoil pad that 300 could have less felt recoil than a 30-30.

http://www.intlmidway.com/intl/eproductpage.exe/ShowProduct?saleitemid=932501

Some here don't like the idea of downloading, that's fine. :) Just pick you powder carefully and double check your powder height before seating.

1858
July 25, 2009, 05:09 PM
First off, neither the .270 WCF nor the .300 Win Mag have anything resembling knockdown power.

Unless you're planning a hunt for the big bears on Kodiak, I wouldn't bother looking at a magnum anything.

These statements seem contradictory to me. If a .300 Win Mag doesn't have "knock down" power, what does in your opinion, and since you claim it doesn't, why would you want it for bear on Kodiak? What do you consider to be the entry level cartridge that has "knock down" power? The .270 may be on the anemic side, but the .300 Win Mag sure isn't with at least a 60% higher knock out factor (using John Taylor's KO formula**). That extra energy comes at a price of course but the recoil of a .300 Win Mag is very manageable for many shooters.

**KO = [bullet diam.(in.) x bullet weight (gr) x velocity (fps)]/7000

:)

Bigfoot
July 25, 2009, 05:40 PM
If a cartridge had "knockdown power" how could you shoot it without being knocked down yourself?

A bullet kills by disrupting tissues, bones, organs and causing bleeding.

1858
July 25, 2009, 06:27 PM
If a cartridge had "knockdown power" how could you shoot it without being knocked down yourself?

A bullet kills by disrupting tissues, bones, organs and causing bleeding.

First off, we all know what is meant by "knock down" power ... the ability of a bullet to drop an animal where it stands ... so there's no need for the facetious explanation of what a bullet does in literal terms. Jim Taylor used the term "knock out" factor but essentially they're the same thing. "Knock down" or "knock out" are both valid criteria for cartridge selection. If you're going to shoot a dangerous animal, you want it to stop moving in your direction ASAP ... right? If you're shooting a deer, you don't want to have to track it all over hell's creation either.

:)

handle02
July 25, 2009, 11:35 PM
I should have mentioned earlier that the 300 I have avalible to me has a muzzle brake on it so recoil with that particular 300 mag isn't going to be a factor.The whole ''Knock down power" thing was just one of those things I threw out there to see everyone's opinion.I have dropped deer dead in their tracks with everything from my old .243 to my .50 cal muzzleloader.I wasn't real worried which cartridge would make a deer do backflips when I shot it,although that would be pretty cool to see!I think most every centerfire cartridge has ''knock down power'' as long as you put the bullet in the right place.

Rokman
July 26, 2009, 01:21 AM
I had a Browning A-bolt in 300 Win. mag with a brake that made it feel like shooting a .270. I sold the thing because I just didn't need the overkill for the little Texas and Arkansas deer that I shoot. If I did any lot of elk hunting, etc., I would have kept it. The loud report was extremely annoying though. I personally would buy the .270 and work up some perfect hand loads with some of the premium bullets that are available.;)

Loanshark
July 26, 2009, 04:58 AM
I'd opt for 308. Simply because you want to reload, and already have some 30 cal rifles.

Bigfoot
July 26, 2009, 06:57 AM
The 300 can destroy a lot of meat, for that matter so can the 270, high velocity and lightly constructed bullets do that. If you shoot factory ammo get 180s, possibly Partitions. The combination of the somewhat lessor velocity and the controlled expansion bullet will keep the damage down. Plus it's good for elk/moose. Be very careful shooting factory 150s, unless they are something like a TSX, E-Tip or some of the bondeds.

I should have mentioned in my earlier post that one of the advantages of loading a cartridge is you get to match the bullet construction and velocity to the game. No bullet blowup, lousy penetration and wasted meat. Consider working up just one medium velocity load that will do 90% of all your hunting. I'd get some good powder and a fairly inexpensive, high BC bullet like a Ballistic Tip, SST or a cup and core Boat Tail of 150 or 165 gr, find an accurate load that's around 2700-2800 fps and call it good. Essentially a .308. Flat enough trajectory, good expansion on yotes and small deer, plenty of penetration for big hogs. Easy on the wallet, easy on the shoulder, you can take the brake off to make it easier on the ears(tinnitus blows), easy on your gun, easy on the brass, easy on the backstraps, etc. I never heard a .308 shooter complain about too much meat damage. With all that hunting you shouldn't have a flinch so that when you do load it with full power 180-200s you won't think anything of it. Until after the shot and your shoulder hurts twice as much.

Ok, that's my 5 cent's. :)

handle02
July 26, 2009, 02:12 PM
To everyone that has commented on this thread THANK YOU!!:) I think i'm gonna go with the .300,because i've never had one before and looking at it from a reloading point of view.I will just load the .300 up or down depending on what i'm using it for at that time.I will post pics of my new toy ASAP.:evil:

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 26, 2009, 02:41 PM
My opinion, extremely marginal diminishing returns for going with a .300 maggie over the venerable, powerful, and flat-shooting .270 Win - there's a reason why it's the 2nd most popular hunting caliber in the USA. It can do it all, and do it all with less recoil & blast that bigger stuff.

22-rimfire
July 26, 2009, 04:06 PM
I would also get the 270 win unless long shots are the norm or you intend to do much mule deer or elk hunting out west. There is no point in beating yourself up with a caliber when you have a choice. What don't you like about the I-bolt? I have looked at them and they look and feel great to me.

Charshooter
July 26, 2009, 05:46 PM
I said this before, perhaps here, the 270 and 300 Winchester Magnum have a similar trajectory with a difference of 50 grains more bullet for the 300, so the question comes down to whether or not you need to hit you target with a 130-150 grain bullet, or a 180-200 grain pill. You will get a bit extra range with a 165 grain. Out of the 300 yards, the 150 does the same as a 200 with less terminal energy. If you do not need a 300 yard shot then a non-magnum 30 cal will work as good.

I like this combination because I do not have to change shooting style moving between the two rifles, for deer, sheep, antelope, goats the 270 will do a good job and the 270 with a good bullet will take Elk far out, so the 300 gives me a bit more knock down confidence out at long range on Elk.

Mostly where I hunt a 308 Win. will do the job well

AZ Desertrat
July 26, 2009, 07:51 PM
the .300 mag is a classic cartridge.....but so is the .270. I own both and I don't shoot the .300 much because of scarcity of cheap target ammo and the fact that I don't hunt big game too much anymore.....but the .270 has put many trophies on my wall over 40 years...mine is a Win Model 70 and is pre-64...so a few rounds have been put down the pipe on that one. If you don't really NEED the mag....then don't GET the mag. Less is sometimes more.

SuperMidget
July 27, 2009, 09:50 AM
These statements seem contradictory to me. If a .300 Win Mag doesn't have "knock down" power, what does in your opinion, and since you claim it doesn't, why would you want it for bear on Kodiak? What do you consider to be the entry level cartridge that has "knock down" power? The .270 may be on the anemic side, but the .300 Win Mag sure isn't with at least a 60% higher knock out factor (using John Taylor's KO formula**). That extra energy comes at a price of course but the recoil of a .300 Win Mag is very manageable for many shooters.

The reason I would opt for a magnum is to drive heavier bullets at the same speed as a standard weight in an '06 cartridge. For big bears, a 220gr at 2650 is going to have far better penetration than a 150gr at 2850 or a 160 2800 from a .270. You have a lot of animal to move through and the heavy bullet is a touch better insurance.

As for knockdown power, the TKO formula is touted by a lot of people who have no idea what it is really used for. John Taylor came up with that formula to guesstimate how much time you would have if you had a near miss on a frontal brain shot on an elephant. That is the only use he intended it for, and the only use he claimed it was good for.

Bigfoot
July 27, 2009, 11:24 AM
:D Yep, Taylor Knock Out formula.

Still, increased bullet diameter, velocity and weight generally do have a greater effect on game assuming bullet construction is similar so it's fair that people use that and other energy formulas when considering cartridges.

BTW the 300 can also be loaded to mimic the 270 if that's the performance that a fella really likes. Load the 130 gr TSX or TTSX to around 3000.

handle02
July 27, 2009, 01:33 PM
Thank you!Bigfoot,for pointing that out :D. That is why I think the 300 is the better choice for me,as you said it can be loaded to mimic the 270.With everyones comments I feel like the 300 will be more flexible in reloading and with the other 30 cal rifles I already have it just makes sense to choose that caliber.

SuperMidget
July 27, 2009, 02:17 PM
BTW the 300 can also be loaded to mimic the 270 if that's the performance that a fella really likes. Load the 130 gr TSX or TTSX to around 3000

If you only want a 130@3000 from a .308" bullet, then please, please pick a .300 Savage or a .308 WCF. In a .300 WinMag that would be a gross under loading and borders on terminally stupid if a secondary explosion occurs. That 130 TTSX should be closer to 3200-3300 than 3000.

Pick a performance you want, and buy the cartridge that meets that performance at or near max loads. An underloaded cartridge can cause higher pressure spikes than an overload in most cases, and it is a whole lot harder to spot an underload.

Two rifles are far cheaper than one rifle and a trip to the ER.

handle02
July 27, 2009, 02:58 PM
Thats a very valid point you brought to the table SuperMidget.I haven't thought of it that way :uhoh: ,but I plan on doing my homework when it comes to loading my own ammo,so hopefully I will not make those stupid mistakes.I would never load a round too hot or underload it,as I have heard too many horror stories about guys just going stupid with loading their own ammo.Like you said a trip to the ER is not worth it.

1858
July 27, 2009, 03:14 PM
As for knockdown power, the TKO formula is touted by a lot of people who have no idea what it is really used for.

Then you'd better include John Linebaugh on that list! I wonder if he knows "what it is really used for". :barf:

From John Linebaugh ....

"Most knowledgeable shooters know the foot-pounds of energy formula the industry uses to measure or compare bullet energy leaves a lot to be desired. First it just is not an accurate way to measure comparable bullet effect on critters; and second, critters can't read. A lot of shooters have switched over to the TAYLOR KNOCK-OUT formula for a much more accurate means of measuring bullet effect on game."

As for the rest of us, we all KNOW how and why John Taylor developed his "knock out" formula, so thanks for nothing! Thousands of hunters have relied on the KO formula to help them select a caliber/bullet/velocity combination since it's one of the most effective and accurate scaling tools available, short of conducting ballistic tests.

As for the implications of John Taylor's formula, he stated ....

"I do not think there is any necessity to go into the methods I employed to arrive at the formula I used, suffice it to say that the final figures agree in an altogether remarkable way with the actual performance of the rifles under practical hunting conditions."

This is a broad and general statement about "practical hunting conditions". Although he was primarily concerned about stopping elephants, many have realized that his formula can also be applied to other animals.

:)

Arkel23
July 27, 2009, 03:21 PM
To everyone that has commented on this thread THANK YOU!! I think i'm gonna go with the .300,because i've never had one before and looking at it from a reloading point of view.I will just load the .300 up or down depending on what i'm using it for at that time.I will post pics of my new toy ASAP. GREAT choice!

SuperMidget
July 27, 2009, 04:12 PM
1858, I've made my thoughts known on the issue, and if you care to take it to a thread for that specific purpose, I'd be happy to debate the use of the TKO formula with you.

However, as it is not pertinent to the issue at hand beyond the statements we've both made and defended, let's drop is and continue on with the discussion of the .270 WCF versus the .300 Win Mag.

1858
July 27, 2009, 05:02 PM
let's drop is and continue on with the discussion of the .270 WCF versus the .300 Win Mag.

As far as the OP goes the point is moot it seems. Frankly, I'd choose neither of the two cartridges mentioned for the OP's intended use. If I had to choose one or the other it'd be the .300 Win Mag for many of the reasons already mentioned by Bigfoot, bang_bang et al. I regularly shoot a .300 Win Mag at 600 yards and I know full well what a 208gr bullet with a MV of 2,850 fps is capable of.

handle02, I recently bought a Savage Weather Warrior in 7mm-08 and you'll be very happy with that model ... it's an excellent rifle with many desirable features all at a very reasonable price.

:)

handle02
July 27, 2009, 05:36 PM
I'm glad to hear some good feedback about the Savage weather warrior 1858,I appreciate that.This particular model has some features that I think any hunter/shooter will like.

1858
July 27, 2009, 05:48 PM
handle02, I don't know if you ordered one yet but I bought mine from www.savage-rifles.com . Shipping was $19 and I had it about one week after ordering. It came with the AccuTrigger and AccuStock without a scratch on it.

http://www.savage-rifles.com/item/55130_Savage_Arms_Rifles_Shotguns_SAV_17802_116FCSS__300_WI.aspx

I like the three-position safety that allows the bolt to be locked with a round in the chamber (safety on). Also, the action is VERY smooth and the magazine is LONG (on the 7mm-08 anyway) so there's no problem seating bullets 0.020" off the lands. Add in the DIY barrel, bolt face, bolt handle, very stiff stock, great trigger and decent finish ... well, it's a keeper. I'm going to change the recoil pad and plastic bolt release (if I can find a stainless one) but that's it.

:)

handle02
July 27, 2009, 06:20 PM
Ok this site you put up links to is a hell of a lot cheaper than the gun shop I WAS going to purchase my rifle from.:barf: I'm glad you posted those, the shop that has the gun I wanted is asking 750.00 plus tax and backround!!:what: I thought that wasn't too bad according to Savages' website by going on their msrps'.The site you posted, do you have to have an FFL to order from them?If not how do I go about ordering one and getting it sent to an FFL dealer?I've never ordered a gun online before and have no clue how it works:o.

1858
July 27, 2009, 06:26 PM
handle02, it's simple enough. When you submit your order online and enter your zip code as part of that order, a list of FFL dealers will pop up. You simply choose the one that you want and they'll ship it to that dealer. You can also request that it gets sent to an FFL not on their list. However, it's best to talk to a local FFL first to find out how much they charge for the service so that you won't be in for any surprises. The FFL dealer that I use locally charges 7% of the firearm cost up to a maximum of $100. Since I've bought numerous firearms and accessories from and through him, he's not too particular about the fee. Sometimes he waives it completely, or charges 4% or 5% etc., but never more than 7% or $100, whichever is lower.

:)

handle02
July 27, 2009, 06:53 PM
Thank you very very much!!!You've been a huge help and I greatly appreciate it!!!:D

Bigfoot
July 27, 2009, 07:41 PM
In a .300 WinMag that would be a gross under loading and borders on terminally stupid if a secondary explosion occurs. That 130 TTSX should be closer to 3200-3300 than 3000.

That's why I linked the manufactures own load data for 5744 on post #21. Accurate manufactures this powder for reduced loads. Here is their powder description from the Midway link on that post.

"Accurate 5744 Smokeless Powder 1 lb

A short cut, extruded, double base rifle propellant perfect for shooting reduced loads, low pressure rifle cartridges and large capacity handgun cartridges. Used by IHMSA shooters, 5744 promotes consistent ignitition, uniform metering and consistent velocity."

You can't get a secondary explosion using it within the load data. Also it's very bulky and a double charge would be obvious. Still, always double check the powder height like I mentioned earlier.

Other good powders for reduced loads are IMR-4759 and H-4895 at above 60% of the full charge. I've also heard of RE-7 and H-4198 but I don't know enough about them for this purpose to recommend them.

Anybody that doesn't feel safe reloading reduced loads shouldn't do it. :)

I love my Savage rifle even without the Accustock, great shooter, solid choice.

Dr_2_B
July 27, 2009, 08:27 PM
I'm gonna have to break down and get me a 270

dullh
July 27, 2009, 08:32 PM
Ever considered a .300 Winchester Short Magnum?

NCsmitty
July 27, 2009, 08:53 PM
Here's the link to Hodgdon's youth loads, only to be used with H4895.

http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf


NCsmitty

handle02
July 27, 2009, 11:40 PM
Guys, I can't say thank you enough! Ya'll are very generous and informative with your knowledge.Once again,THANK YOU ALL!!!:D

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