[chevyforlife21]

do you guys have federal,remington,and winchester in your stores? and what one works the best? why are the federal and winchester shells the same price while the remington is a dollar more?

[memphisjim]

mine has all three
ive used the federal and they have functioned flawlessly in my saiga 12 and coach gun

couldnt tell you about the price difference

[Dr. Fresh]

They are all respectable brands that should work fine. The price difference probably just exists because they're made my different people.

[Mr. Bojangles]

I like the winchesters best because they seem to work as well as anything else and are about $2 cheaper (at least at my local walmart.)
And yes, I am that cheap.

[Walkalong]

Not cheap, frugal........we're frugal.

Folks still call me cheap though..............:D

[JoeMal]

Mine has all 3. Feds are cheapest, followed by Winchesters ($1) and Rems

Each performs flawlessly for me....rarely have I ever had a shotgun shell fail

[Geneseo1911]

I too am pretty "frugal", so I'll give you a reloader's perspective. I like to reload bulk shells for sporting clays, as our local course is in the woods and you cannot get to your empties on about half the stations. If they are only good for a couple reloads, you don't mind loosing them so much;)

The Winchesters have thinner base metal, which has been known to cause problems with rough-chambered Rem. 870 Express models. They also have pretty cheap plastic, although I have a few friends have given me that I've managed to get a couple reloads out of. They can be loaded using AA data.

I've not seen Rem. at WM, but that may be because I usually reload, buy Rem. "Gun Club" shells at Dick's (with a mail-in rebate), or buy a case at my local dealer. He sells a 10-box flat for $54, which is a bit cheaper than most anywhere else. He sells Diana & Rio, (Spain & Mexico respectively) so you aren't paying for a brand name. These are also good for 3-5 loadings, although they are Cheddite hulls which have less published data available, and require Cheddite or Diana primers as American primers will fall out.

Anyway, the Remington's are probably more because they are a higher quality hull which can be reloaded many times. I believe Rem. bulk packs use the one-piece hull like the Gun Club shells do. I think BP is black and GC is green. These are nearly identical to the STS hulls, just not as pretty, and load about the same.

The Federals are a paper basewad type. I used to shoot a lot of them when they were the cheapest thing going. They have quality plastic, but the basewad wears out after 3-5 loadings.

I will also add with respect to Joe above, I have only had 3 shells fail. All three were reloads, all three were Federal paper BW I picked up at the club, and all three failed because the basewad was wet and killed the primer. I've shot thousands of rounds of factory ammo (usually the cheapest I can find) & never had a failure.

[rbernie]

Good synopsis. The Winchester stuff is the worst of the lot and is my least favorite. The Remington pack is the Sport Load, and it is the best of the choices.

[ArmedBear]

The Remington Sport Loads are actually excellent ammo all around, with no reservations. I also use those hulls when I reload, and they're good for about 8 reloads (more if you're really cheap, but I find them for free at the range when I want to, so I see no need to reload any marginal hulls).

The Federal performs as well, and it's dirtier. Shot 100 rounds of it the other night, and apart from the additional smoke when ejecting, my bore snake came out really black. I have used a lot of the Federal, and if Wal-Mart is charging less for it than the Sport Loads, that's what I buy. That said, I never shoot a gas-operated semiauto any more. With my 1100, I'd spring for the Sport Loads.

The Winchester Universals are crap, and often priced higher than the far superior Federals and Remingtons. They're the rounds that everyone says won't eject from their 870s (ditto here). I don't believe they're properly or consistently sized. They're really dirty, too. I bought them once. Never again.

[scottishclaymore]

Ditto to what others have said. I usually get the Federal loads. the Remington ones are good, too. The Winchester loads don't feed well in the 870's, so we try not to buy those.

[Marlin 45 carbine]

has anyone else noticed that the 'value' pack boxes of shells with #6 shot are no longer available?

[Yo Mama]

I found it was sometimes cheaper when you buy 4 boxes vs. the 100 round packs! The other day, Federal was 4.50 a pack, but the 100 rounds were 20 bucks.

[Tim the student]

It depends what they have in stock, and what their prices are. All things being equal, I prefer the Remingtons.

[hmphargh]

All the Walmart I go to ever seems to have is Winchester, and they get lots of it. Occasionally there will be individual boxes of Remington, but I've never seen a box of Federal shells there.

[buck460XVR]

The reason I buy the bulk pacs is because I don't reload for shotgun and I want a cheap alternative to the overpriced junk at the local range. I generally buy the Federals, because they have always worked well for me and all of the independent studies done on accuracy between the big three(that I have read about over the years) gives the nod to Federal, then Winnies and then Remmies. More than likely the small difference means nuttin' to the majority of us. When it comes to Turkey loads tho, I prefer Winnies.

[Magic_Man]

My 870 & Pardner love the Winchester. My Saiga 12 hates it.

I have a box of the Federal & Remington, but have not run either through any of my guns yet.

[ArmedBear]

I found it was sometimes cheaper when you buy 4 boxes vs. the 100 round packs! The other day, Federal was 4.50 a pack, but the 100 rounds were 20 bucks.

Yeah, gotta add up the numbers in your head. I've found that, too. Prices for various bulk packs may change from week to week, also. Always look closely.:)

[bang_bang]

We usually get the Federal 100 round packs when shooting clays. They seem to function flawlessly in our shotguns...no matter what we take along with us. I believe we've shot them in Mossberg 500, Brownings, Beretta's, and a Remmy 870.

The Browning seemed to gobble them up, and was by far the sweetest shooting shotgun in the batch.

[bhp9mm]

they have all 3 brands at the ones in my area thats all u ever see is shotgun shells all other ammo sales out as fast as they get it

[fireman 9731]

My Wally World has all three... I usually go for the federal just because they are cheaper, than Remington. Winchester bulk packs have never run well in my 870. I think the Remington may be a little pricier because they use a little fancier wad.

[Publius1688]

I've always shot Federal, even though they are a little higher. Never analyzed why, it's what my Grandfather always bought.....so I do, too. Never had one fail.

[rbernie]

My local WalMarts actually just dropped the price of the Federals a bit, making them the cheapest of the three by a couple of bucks a pack.

[nody]

Here's a few exact prices, consistent at a half dozen Wally's around the north Dallas suburbs:

Winchester 12 and 20 ga, #'s 7 1/2 or 8 = $20.97/100 + tax (tagged as a "longterm" markdown..whatever they call it)

Federal 12 and 20 ga, # 7 1/2 only = same markdown price

Remington 12 and 20, 7 1/2 only $22.97


also,

AA 12, 20 ($7.87/25) and 28/410 (9.97/25)



Was using the Federals, switched to the Winchesters for the #8's, and will probably switch back. (my scores got even more pathetic)

Has anyone patterned this "junk ammo" in a "standard" gun? I'm curious.

[oneounceload]

IF I have to buy shells at Wally World, I'll get the Federals, as they are less expensive. However, I prefer to get the Remington Gun Clubs at Dick's when they're on sale. I can get the 2-3/4 DE soft shooting shells for less than wally world AND get $1.00/box rebate from Dick's.......The gun clubs are also nicer to reload.

[ArmedBear]

How are the Sport Loads and Gun Clubs different?

I've never been able to figure that out. I reload both hulls, and there's no difference. Haven't been able to tell any difference when shooting them, either.

I haven't dissected any.

[oneounceload]

The main difference is the recoil. Light loads equals light recoil....something my shoulders prefer as I get older......Most cheap promo loads are 3 or 3-1/4 DE, running 1200 or 1290fps. I like the 2-3/4DE running about 1145, coupled with a 1oz payload, makes for a soft-shooting experience.....and the clays still break easily. There is NO need to use hard-hitting big payload shells to break any target out there, espeically when I'm shooting 2 rounds of sporting in one day.....I believe the Gun Clubs are basically as good as the STS hulls for reloading.

[ArmedBear]

Interesting. The website says 1290, but the box sitting here says 1200. Maybe they've changed it.

It WAS the same as the bulk Federals I have here (1 1/8 oz. @ 1200). I don't mind 1 1/8 oz., so I can err on the side of open chokes and 7 1/2 shot for when the distances are really varied, as they were last Wednesday night.

But the spec on Remington's website says 1290. Hmmm...

[Kind of Blued]

My 1100 will cycle the Federal loads even after 1,000 rounds with no cleaning or lubrication.

With the other brands, it will start having failures after 100 rounds.

Easy choice for me.

[nody]

Talking about poor feed Winchester universals, I was shooting a rented AL391 20ga on Saturday and they fed fine, then swapped to a 391 12ga, and the bolt would only partially release when the button was pressed, loading singles through the port (yes, I DID change to 12 gauge shells from 20 :)). The bolt would only move about 1/3rd fwd, until the gun warmed up (it was A/C cold to the touch, until about 10 rnds and 107 deg TX got it warmed up and running.)

Being a rental, I figured it was a dirty gun and mentioned it when I returned it. Listening to you guys, maybe it was the cheap winchesters? To hear you guys tell it, the 391 is near perfect. By the way, I've seen it mentioned in other threads, but that 20 ga 391 was down right "DAINTY" compared to the 12. I thought of Will Smith in MIB: "Feel like I'm gonna break this damn thing!" Didn't cost any targets though.

Because of this thread, I'm gonna switch back to the Federals, and maybe try some remingtons too, even though they are about 50 cents more a box.:eek:

[chevyforlife21]

yea my winchesters always got stuck in my 20 gauge single shot every round. with federal its fine. the winchesters seem to work fine in a mossberg 500 12g though

[ArmedBear]

People blame the 870 for the stuck shell problem with the Universals.

I have long blamed the junk shells.

If a 391 and a single-shot have the same issue, is it really the 870?

I'm the first to say that Remington's stuff falls short in various ways. I just don't think this is one of them.

[lions]

I like Federal.
It is cheaper than Remington and my 870 doesn't like Winchester.

[Erik M]

I buy a different barand every time. Im working my way through a brick of Federal at the moment. From what I noticed they are all about the same, 7 1/2 - 8 shot, 7/8 - 1 1/8 oz.

[Big Daddy Grim]

Federal never had a dud

[chevyforlife21]

federal for life!

[The Silver Bullet 1719]

I wouldn't buy the Winchester bulk-packs if they were a dollar per 100. They have given me too many headaches over the years.

I usually buy the Remington Game Loads for a few bucks more.

[Sauer Grapes]

I really like the federals because the guys shoot them and give me the empties..lol. I reload them one time and have an endless supply.

[EvanWilliams]

Rarely does it matter which brand. That said. I used AAs in my O/U and Remington in my Semi-auto. The old guy who taught me about sporting told me that the "slick" remingtons were better in semi-autos. So, in competition, I followed that advice. Now. Does it make a difference that I didn't buy the value pack. I always bought by the Flat where AAs or Rems. The AA hulls felt thick and substantial. Maybe the value pack is different.

[frontgate1]

Generally more expensive shotshell contain a harder shot, which is a better quality shot.

[seanie!]

I usually buy the Federal bulk boxes from Wal-Mart for clay shooting. Never had a problem with them.

[seeds76]

I LOVE Winchester. Got my first 2 perfect rounds (aces) in american and continental trap using Winchester. Saved a ton of $$$ shooting the 100 round universal boxes. Federal burns way to dirty and has a stronger smell that annoys the hell out of me.

[Gary G23]

People blame the 870 for the stuck shell problem with the Universals.

I have long blamed the junk shells.

If a 391 and a single-shot have the same issue, is it really the 870?

I'm the first to say that Remington's stuff falls short in various ways. I just don't think this is one of them.
Finally, logic prevails.

[rbernie]

Federal burns way to dirty and has a stronger smell that annoys the hell out of me.Man, I simply LOVE the Federal smell. :)

I collect my hulls for reloading. Geneseo1911 really did a good job of capturing the pros/cons of these offerings up in post #7 (http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5782750&postcount=7). I have been favoring the Federal because their hulls are thick (and they smell so good when fired! :) ), but I also set them aside for a couple of months in my North Texas attic before reloading them so I haven't had any basewad issues. ArmedBear convinced me a while back to try reloading the Remington hulls, and they work just as well as the Federals but without the basewad concerns.

I have shot almost 10K Winchester bulk-pack shells in the last couple of years, and frankly they give me extraction issues on enough guns (including my 311s) that I vowed to never buy them again once I burned through my stash.

[Erik M]

I plink with federal but I prefer brenneke slugs in a value pack to law down my law.

590A1 Gord-Thumper, eh?

[orphanedcowboy]

I order from Graf's and Sons normally, but on the rare occasion I am short, I buy the Remington's.

[BrownRock]

My not so local Walmart stocks the three brands being talked about here. Remington is $3 bucks more than Federal and Winchester. For me it's the Federal brand, works everytime I pull the trigger. I've never bought the Winchester or Remington packs. Plenty of Winchester and Federal is stocked on the shelves. Not as much Remington on the shelves, but it is there.

[smithmax]

My local WM sells them all for $20.xx

[ijosef]

How much have prices risen on these value packs in recent years? I recently got into shooting again, although I remember buying bulk packs of Federals at Wal*Mart about ten years ago. I just can't remember what price we paid.

[smithmax]

Regarding price, they are all $20 at the local wallyworld, and that seems to be a pretty fair price for factory loads.

[JWF III]

As a reloader, I get Win. AA when I buy shells (the hulls are better for reloading). But I'd shoot any of the three choices. It would all depend on what I was to be doing that day, what the loads are for each brand, and what the price of each is.

Wyman

[MCgunner]

Winchester patterns best in my 20. I was using Winchester AA, but it's getting expensive. My hit probability doesn't seem to suffer much with the value pack, either.

[Tom Held]

You get what you pay for with these value packs. I went out last week to shoot sporting clays with a friend. He had a value pack of Winchesters. Almost half of them failed to fire because the primers were seated too deep. I've seen this before but only with the Winchesters. I made him discard the misfires due to possibility of hangfires. Of course Walmart won't allow returns on partly open boxes. I gave him Remington Gun Club loads to shoot and they worked flawlessly (note 12 gauge). He was shooting a near new Ruger Woodside over/under. Right now I can buy Remington Gun Club loads at PG for $60 a flat. Tom

[MCgunner]

I would imagine the misfires would be very gun dependent. I've never had that problem. I have, however, heard of Winchesters sticking on extraction and the extractors slipping the rim. I've had this problem with 3" Winchester Xpert high speed steel loads, but not with the value packs. My 20 is a side by side, so that's not a concern, anyway, in that gun.

I swore off Remington for a while, had problems with the 3" number on steel 12s hanging on my Mossberg's action, unfolded length too long and wouldn't eject smoothly. I've not gone back to Remington steel shot 3" since. I don't know if that's been cured.

I shoot a lot more steel than lead loads, being as I mostly hunt waterfowl and don't shoot clays very often. Lately, I've settled on Winchester steel high speed Expert 3 shot in 2 3/4". I've had no problems with 'em in my Mossberg, they seem to be very good on ducks to 40+ yards, and they work in my Winchester autoloader which is a 2 3/4" gun. I used the value pack 7.5 shot Winchester stuff in my Winchester auto 2 years ago for doves and had no problems at all, shot 3 limits in 3 days. :D

[EAJ]

Purchased some Federal yesterday. Had a price roll back to $20.97.

[Zoogster]

Had a price roll back to $20.97.
They were $15 in 2006-2007.


Inflation rates from 2006-2008:

2006 3.23%
2007 2.85%
2008 3.84%

9.92%


$15+ $15(10%) = $16.50


Lead prices spiked in 2007, and went down to massive lows earlier in the 2009 year. http://www.metalprices.com/pubcharts/PublicCharts.aspx?metal=pb%20lme&type=L&weight=&days=12&size=s&bg=EDF2F8
Below 45cents.
So that should more than equal any increased metal costs from bulk costs earlier.



The inflation rate in 2009 is not high enough to make up the more than $4 difference.
In fact the dollar has been quite strong when compared to other currencies since the financial crisis, so foreign purchased raw materials should be even cheaper.
Gas prices were very similar, in fact they are even cheaper now than in August of 2006.



Still seems overpriced to me.

[rbernie]

I'm sure that the plastic hull material is a lot more expensive, since the cost of the oil from which it is derived has increased since 2006.

[Zoogster]

I'm sure that the plastic hull material is a lot more expensive, since the cost of the oil from which it is derived has increased since 2006.

Gas prices in 2006 for the month of August were over $3. Currently they are under $3

http://www.eia.doe.gov/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/wrgp/mogas_home_page.html


In fact gas prices for 2006 and 2009 averaged out are very similar.


Since the price of gasoline is based on the crude oil plus the refinement, it should be very similar to the price increases and decreases for the crude based plastics.

[oneounceload]

You might not be taking into account WHEN these shells were made. They do a production run - It might have been a few months ago, or last week. That has a lot to do with what the mfg. will be charging.

According to your analysis, 28 and 410 should be around $2.00/box instead of 10-11......and that is not the case

[Zoogster]

According to your analysis, 28 and 410 should be around $2.00/box instead of 10-11......and that is not the case

Where do you arrive at that? Only if they were about 12% less than $2.00 in 2006. So you are saying they were less than $2 a box in 2006?



Gas prices averaged out for 2009 and 2006 are very similar.


Inflation for 2006, 2007 and 2008 was just about 10% total (so your money is worth 10% less). If it is going to be at all near the 3% mark for 2009 it should be around 12% more than it was in 2006 by this point. Unless the country is really creating new money at a record pace...That would of course cause inflation to skyrocket.
Actually according to official numbers 2009 has had very low inflation, primarily due to other currencies dropping faster in value.

Demand is not that different. Fewer people are purchasing large amounts and blowing it quickly while recreating, but there was more gun purchases in early 2009. Other sources of demand for the raw materials are much lower. Raw materials hit many year record lows in early 2009.
So demand should not be that different overall.

So overall it should only be about the price increase of inflation.

[oneounceload]

Your analysis seems to intimate that prices should be back to those levels because the raw material prices have dropped. Not always the case. There is also production scheduling, supply/demand, and other costs, both fixed and variable that needs to be considered. Shotshells are typically run in one run, maybe two for the year. Depending on when they were run will also determine raw material costs, along with raw material replacement costs. Political climate has a play in this as well.

[Zoogster]

Shotshells are typically run in one run, maybe two for the year. Depending on when they were run will also determine raw material costs, along with raw material replacement costs. Political climate has a play in this as well.

The prices for early 2009 were even lower on just about every single thing than they were in 2006.
From lead, to copper, even oil took a dive for months.

So if even a single run was done at any point in 2009 it would have been cheaper to make than in 2006.


So they could be charging more due to long term contracts still using long term averages, but that means consumers are paying more for thier mistakes. That ammo would be much cheaper from a competitor that bought materials in 2009.
In fact with the dollar currently much stronger against currencies than last year, foreign ammo should be an even better deal.
Now to research the nation doing the worst that produces large quantities of ammunition...

[oneounceload]

Maybe from a raw material standpoint - but where we live, wages have gone up, utilities have gone up, transportation, taxes, insurances, etc., etc., etc., have ALL gone up. What will they be when it is time for the next run? THAT is something that production schedulers also take into account - just like oil refiners

[Zoogster]

Inflation rates of 2009 are actually going in reverse:

Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun
0 0.2 -0.4 -0.7 -1.3 -1.4

So money is becoming more valuable in 2009 than it was in 2008.

Maybe from a raw material standpoint - but where we live, wages have gone up, utilities have gone up, transportation, taxes, insurances, etc., etc., etc., have ALL gone up. What will they be when it is time for the next run? THAT is something that production schedulers also take into account - just like oil refiners

Not by that high of a percentage. Large companies are talking many millions just by a percentage point change.
Have wages gone up higher than the inflation rate? If everything went up at the rate of inflation, people are in reality making no more than they were.
If you make 10% more numerically today than you did in 2006 you actually make about the same.
So in fact the pay of most people has gone down, even if the official number they are making has gone up. Because unless thier pay has gone up more than the inflation rate, they are making less.

With unemployment climbing higher, most workers are happy to just have a job, not in a position to demand better wages and better benefits.
So no, the costs of most workers (unless making a low enough salary to be effected by the federal minimum wage change) will be lower in 2009 than it was in 2006 when workers could demand wage increases and the economy was strong. If it is a company actually selling its product (like ammo) then the profit potential if they were just charging the increase in inflation would be even greater now than in 2006.
So there is no real reason to need to charge an additional $4 more above the inflation rate change. That is a whopping 40% increase from $15 -$21. Take out the inflation of 10% and it is still a 30% increase in cost over inflation.

[chevyforlife21]

they were 15 bucks 4 years ago

[dvlhntr]

inflation is a cost multiplier: if the price of a raw material goes up and price inflation along with other raw materials. the final product cost to consumers will increase more than the inflation rate.

also remember that ENERGY increases are not included in the gov published inflation rates.

[oneounceload]

personally, I prefer the Federal or Remingtons of those three, but really like RIO's or Estates from other locales even better

[nody]

Shooting skeet today with winchester Universals in a Winchester SX2. out of three boxes, 1 fail to feed, one ripped the "brass" (is that aluminum?) off the hull upon extraction. The rep appears deserved. It was an easy fix.

Fella I was shooting with had an 1100, and he said when he called remington about feeding problems, their answer was to use only remington ammo!

[slodsm]

We went shooting clays today (first time for me) and I picked up a Winchester bulk pack on my way there to add to the pile of shells they brought. I went through all 100 of those plus another 80 of another type of winnie cheap stuff without an issue from the OLD 870 I was shooting. The owner of that one also brought a Mossberg 500 and many others out but the 500 wouldn't eject the bulk pack shells at all. We gave up on it and went to another brand and had no more issues.


On a side note, I'm now completely hooked on shooting clays. That's the most fun I've had in a day of shooting in many years.

[Snarlingiron]

I voted Remington. Great stuff. I have personally witnessed a number of stuck Winchester hulls. Federal works ok for me, but is filthy nasty and leaves lots of black residue everywhere.

[oneounceload]

At 20.97/4 boxes - you're looking at 5.25/box. I can buy much better quality shells from Rio or Kemen for $55/flat, or $5.5/box - For .01/shell extra, I'll go that route

[rbernie]

I can buy much better quality shells from Rio or Kemen for $55/flatWhere? I can't.... :(

[mp510]

I have never had a problem with the Federals.

I have seen people at the range have problems with the Winchesters. Handing them, the hulls felt way more maleable (talking about loaded rounds here) than the the Federal or Remington hulls.

[A man with a gun!]

Not to shift too far off track, I just mail ordered a case of Winchester Ranger 00 Buck for an excellent price with free shipping.

Cheaper than the imported Rio's, does Winchesters crummy reputation (As seen in this thread) extend into their law enforcement product line?

You guys have me wondering if I really did find a bargain.

[sfc_mark]

In my experience the Federals are dirty. As an experiment my son picked up the Federals and I bought the Winchesters on the way to the skeet range. By station two there was way more fouling in his bores than I had after a full round.

The next time out I decided to stick with AA Light target from now on. I plan to start reloading in the near future and factoring in the value of the empty hulls at the going Internet rate, I figure I'm only paying $.73 a box more than the junk loads.

If I weren't saving the good hulls for reloading I would either stick with the Winchesters or try the Remingtons...the Federals are just too dirty for me.

[oneounceload]

Where? I can't....

We have a distributor that comes to one of the local monthly shoots (actually I think he goes to all of the clubs in a large area) and sells out of the back of his truck. he also takes orders and delivers to the shoot. This guy is in Jax, Fl, but Kemen have distributors all over. Not sure if their site lists them or not

[Positrack]

My local WM carries all three and I've tried and patterned 'em all. The Federal gave me the best pattern, closely followed by the Winchester. However, I was surprised to discover the Remington Sport Loads really didn't pattern very well for me.

The Remingtons are the most expensive ($22), followed by the Federal ($21), and the Winchester ($20) IIRC.

I've had absolutely no trouble with either the Remington or Federal, but I had 2 or 3 of the Winchester shells seem to "bulge" a bit, requiring a fair pull to extract, and I also had one FTF, surprisingly enough. My 870 is a Wingmaster and the chamber is mirror-like flawless. I keep it immaculately clean, and I've only had that trouble with the cheap Winchester shells so I'm confident it was an ammo problem. Just my opinion, but they seem to have a flimsier hull than either the Federal or the Remington. I went back and forth between those two, but settled on the Federal because of the better pattern. I have noticed they seem to smoke a bit more than the Remington though. In my experience, the Federal .22 bulk ammo is WAY dirtier than the Remington; maybe the same is true of their shotgun shells? No biggie, I clean the gun after every shooting session, and being an 870, it would probably run if you packed the action full of mud. If it was an autoloader, I'd likely be more concerned with cleanliness.

[winchester '97]

winchester universal loads are crap in any outloader with a tight-ish chamber. the metal part of the hull is thin and obviously of a lower quality metal. remingtons are ok, but it seems like your just paying for the brand name to me, federals are my favorites. long hull life to reload, consistant patterns, no bad primers in six thousand shells ive used. but right now the sad thing is 4 boxes of federal game loads is cheaper than any of the value packs at my wal mart. 20 bucks plus tax vs. 22-24 bucks plus tax. and in my experiance the remington .22 bulk pack ammo feeds like crap through semi auto rifles, especially tube magazine fed ones, and also gives my beretta neos trouble. it also seems rather dirty compared to winchester and federal.