calibre winchester 1873 updated pics


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ShooterRuger
July 26, 2009, 10:32 PM
I have cleaned the gun up alot since my last post. here are the updated pics...it was mad in norwich conn. any new iformation this would help...the serial number 8588 and idk how i can look it up. the sight was actually welded on and there are a bunch of dates stamped on top of barrrel.

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ShooterRuger
July 26, 2009, 10:44 PM
i am having a problem posting pictures it says i have to many attachments and i only tried to attach 2 pics

ShooterRuger
July 26, 2009, 11:08 PM
102258

102259

Ron James
July 26, 2009, 11:44 PM
You know, that calibre 1873 Winchester looks just like a Merwin and Hulbert, Third Model Frontier Army, Single action, .44, Top Strap, Square butt. The Calibre 1873 Winchester means it shoots the same bullet as the 1873 Winchester. I believe you have a Spanish copy of the M&H On second throught, it may not be a A spanish copy, but it's hard to tell form a photo.

ShooterRuger
July 26, 2009, 11:56 PM
Ya I think that's what it is...I want a good website so I can get better info on it do you know of any and also on top of barrel it has a bunch of dates stamped definetaly note from the maker..I really want to know what it's all about and half of the imprint on side of barrel is worn off and I really want to know what it says it was def. Modified by original owner I bet this gun has some history wish I knew what

ShooterRuger
July 27, 2009, 12:20 AM
Hopkins & Allen Single Action Army Frontier, 4th Model
This is the unique twist frame take-down that was patented by Hopkins & Allen Mfg. Co., Norwich, Conn. and chambered for the Winchester Cartridge 1873, or .44-40. It is serial number 227xx, is nickel plated with 5 1/2" barrel and excellent hard rubber stocks. Internally this has seen very little use and the wear is from age and storage.* The case colored hammer and trigger guard have nearly all color remaining bright.* Some finish wear on cylinder is evident, probably from a holster.* Some spotting in frame finish no doubt from moisture but overall the finish is bright and sound.* The bore, cylinders and action are near perfect.* This six round revolver opens by cocking the hammer to safety position, press the bottom slide in front of trigger guard to the rear and twist the barrel to the right.* Pull the barrel section forward while depressing the left cylinder release and the revolver comes completely apart.* A very unique system for the time.* This design was also used on the Merwin and Hulbert Revolvers, also made by or at least in the Hopkins & Allen factory.* This piece has the H&A markings with patent dates, last one being Mar. 6, '77.* This was a very popular arm in the days of Colt's, Remington's and Smith & Wesson's and gave those grand companies a run for their money in the mid 1870's to 1900.*

Thanks to everyone that helped

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Jim Watson
July 27, 2009, 12:25 AM
There is an outfit trying to bring back the M&H. The have some history of the original company and its guns at:
http://www.merwinhulbertco.com/about.php

Uh, the bunch of dates IS from the original maker, they are the dates of the patents issued to cover design features of the gun. Of which a Merwin Hulbert has a lot.

Jim K
July 27, 2009, 12:31 AM
It is a Merwin & Hulbert single action, large frame with top strap. Flayderman's reference is 8A-079, with 8A-080 showing the later open flute cylinder. On the top of the barrel it should have the Merwin & Hulbert markings, a series of patent dates, and on the sides the Hopkins and Allen marking. (H&A actually made the guns; M&H was a holding company.)

The barrel has been shortened and a new sight welded on.

The caliber marking is correct, that is the way the .44-40's were marked. The grips appear to be real ivory and the gun was originally nickel plated. It was undoubtedly a costly and spectacular gun when it was new. In excellent condition, it would bring $5500 or more; as it is, I hate to suggest a value. It might be of interest to a collector with a hole in the collection, but its overall condition and the cut down barrel take it out of the high price category.

Ron, there is no indication that it is Spanish; everything about it is consistent with its being a M&H.

Jim

Ron James
July 27, 2009, 12:35 AM
Your information is a little backward But what ever, It is a M&H, not Hopkins and Allen, The H&A name may be on the revolver along with M&H It's really a twisted tale involving half a dozen different arms companys, but believe me, it is a Merwin and Hulbert.

Jim K
July 27, 2009, 12:45 AM
ShooterRuger,

In your last posting (Nr. 6), you appear to be quoting from an auction site; you are obviously are not talking about the same gun as pictured in Nr. 3.

As to how an M&H works, the loading is maybe faster than a Colt SAA, but a lot slower than a Smith & Wesson. As the blurb says, you unlock the barrel, turn it and pull forward; that extracts all the cases; the fired cases fall out, leaving the unfired rounds hanging. Then you close the barrel group, which will rechamber the unfired rounds, and open the loading gate to load the empty chambers. They were fairly popular, but had neither the strength of the Colt nor the easy loading of the S&W, plus they feel more awkward than either.

Jim

Jim K
July 27, 2009, 12:53 AM
Just to clarify, H&A did make revolvers under its own name, but they also made guns for others and also made guns with trade names. The gun was patented by M&H, but M&H had no factory, so they had H&A make the guns for them. I don't have a large frame M&H (darn it) but have several M&H medium and small frame guns, as well as a couple of H&A revolvers. As one would expect from H&A, they are all very well made and top quality all the way, fully equal to S&W or any of the better makers of the time.

Jim

ShooterRuger
July 27, 2009, 12:58 AM
Yes it was an auction site I found the picture seem to match the gun perfectly so I'm not sure what I have I got it forand I just want to know what it is..on the side barrel it's says Hopkins and Allen Corp. Norwich conn. USA and on the top of barrel it says pat's mar. 6 77 and a bunch of dates before it..so is it m&h or h&a I would love to know.. Thanks for all the help so far guys it is appreciated

ShooterRuger
July 27, 2009, 01:00 AM
Also I used hoppes 9 to clean it do you guys recomend any other better ways to clean it thanks

Jim K
July 27, 2009, 05:49 PM
Those guns are always called Merwin and Hulberts, since they were made to the M&H patent. That is what collectors know them by, and to call them by any other name, even that of the actual maker, would be confusing.

Jim

ColonelFlashman
August 27, 2009, 03:26 AM
Just to clarify, H&A did make revolvers under its own name, but they also made guns for others and also made guns with trade names. The gun was patented by M&H, but M&H had no factory, so they had H&A make the guns for them. I don't have a large frame M&H (darn it) but have several M&H medium and small frame guns, as well as a couple of H&A revolvers. As one would expect from H&A, they are all very well made and top quality all the way, fully equal to S&W or any of the better makers of the time.

Jim
Merwin, Hulbert & Co. owned controlling interest in H&A & added on to the H&A factory so that the factory could specifically manufacture M,H&Co.'s Automatic Ejection Revolvers & they also hired the Craftsman to make them.
H&A insisted that they had a right to put their name on M,H&Co. revolvers. There was a rather larger row over it & the court ruled in favor of M,H&Co., so 1/2 of the Revolvers I've had contact w/ Don't have the H&A name on them.

M,H&Co. also owned controlling interest in Evans Repeating Rifle Co. & 4 or 5 other firearms manufacturers in that area.
Which is one of the main reasons that M,H&Co. became insolvent was because like Remington, they over invested at the wrong time counting on several large contracts to pay for all their expenditures.
So when the Russian Imperial Navy defaulted on the payment on their Million dollar order from Evans Repeating Rifle Co., M,H&Co. went under w/ H&A getting controlling interest in M,H&Co. W/ Evans meeting the same fate.
Unfortunately after H&A took over, there was a large fire that destroyed All of M,H&Co.'s records that were in H&A's possession. Which is the reason that there is so little out there on the Superbly Designed & manufactured series of Revolvers. The standard Bbl. lengths were 3, 5 & 7 inches & could be Special Ordered w/ multiple Interchangeable Bbl.'s. The Bbl. in the Pix has been whacked off w/ a Non-standard site silver soldered in place.

The majority of the M,H&Co. Automatic Ejection Revolvers I own are the Large frame 2nd & 3rd Model Frontiers & Pocket Armys. I corresponded by e-mail & phone w/ Art Phelps while he was writing his book. Though I was not comfortable w/ allowing him to Publish my collection of M,H&co. Revolvers in his book. My other research was found in Publications such as "Men at Arms" , etc. & Research Libraries. the

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