How accurate are these "battle rifles?''


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sprice
July 27, 2009, 10:48 AM
How accurate is a springfield loaded m1a with stainless barrel?
How accurate is a DS arms standard fal?
How accurate is a ''match grade'' ar-15?

And the gun I will want in the end is the one that can kill the best and 800-1200 yards.

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THE DARK KNIGHT
July 27, 2009, 11:15 AM
They are all more accurate than most of the people who shoot them.

a-sheepdog
July 27, 2009, 11:30 AM
My "Loaded" M1A is MOA with a scope on it. I am not that good with open sights. I had a DSA Fal, it was nice but I never scoped it and the trigger was not that wonderful. I shot about 3" groups at 100 yards with open sights and ball ammo. Probably could have shrunk the groups with the FAL with better ammo. The Match Grade AR should print 1/2 to 3/4 inch all day. My mil-spec AR prints MOA easily. This is limited experience, but hope it helps.

Limeyfellow
July 27, 2009, 11:40 AM
A standard battle rifle generally has to have the same accuracy as the military asks for with its AT15s. At least 4 MOA to pass. Most are half that. A Loaded M1A depends on where you got it from as there is no set defined standard. I would expect it to be less than 2MOA, and probably half it. A Match grade AR-15 better be in the 1 MOA or less standard for the money you spend on it.

Of course ammo choice makes as much difference as anything. It is rather amazing how some people think you can throw any cheap junk down a barrel and expect the same accuracy as hand loaded for the rifle match quality rounds.

MTMilitiaman
July 27, 2009, 01:16 PM
I have an M1A Loaded with a stainless barrel.

With WWB and cheap S&B 147 gr FMJs it will do about 2 MOA prone, slung up, with iron sights, and ~1.2 to 1.5 MOA with 168 gr Hornady Match--all due mostly to the limitations of my eyesight, I imagine. I just put an ARMS 18 on it, but it may still be a while before I have a chance to shoot it with optics. I've shot it out to 600 yards on point targets (16"x32" brown cardboard torso target) and 1100 yards on area targets ("car" sized dirt patch on opposing hillside). Under the conditions which these shots were made, it was abundantly clear that the limitations of the shooter were far more severe than the limitations of the rifle.

H2O MAN
July 27, 2009, 02:17 PM
When did the AR-15 become a battle rifle?

benEzra
July 27, 2009, 03:05 PM
Rock River Arms guarantees 3/4 MOA or less with match ammo for most of their accuracy-oriented AR's, and tuned AR's shooting 1/2 MOA or less are not uncommon. AR's are probably the most accurate centerfire semiautos on the market, and a decent AR will outshoot a lot of off-the-shelf bolt-actions.

lencac
July 27, 2009, 05:35 PM
Of course ammo choice makes as much difference as anything. It is rather amazing how some people think you can throw any cheap junk down a barrel and expect the same accuracy as hand loaded for the rifle match quality rounds.

Bingo!!!!!

All those rifles are capable of wonderful accuracy as the norm and some exceptions even better. If they don't shoot good there is something unusuallly wrong, most likely the shooter.
Limey hit it correctly. The biggest factor to determine how well this group shoots is the use of quality ammo. Generally surplus is a crap shoot.

sprice
July 27, 2009, 05:45 PM
ya, i just kinda threw the ar-15 in there because i think a true ''assault rifle'' is fully automatic.

Dr_2_B
July 27, 2009, 07:25 PM
I'm strange I guess... if a gun'll shoot minute of bad guy, it's enough for me.

tactikel
July 27, 2009, 07:44 PM
My '03-A3 shoots 1.25 MOA with GI sights (and I wear trifocals) :neener:

Birdmang
July 27, 2009, 07:49 PM
What does MOA mean?

Bass Killer
July 27, 2009, 07:52 PM
A match grade AR15 is for target or small game, not really a battle rifle but is highly accurate. The FAL is deadly and accurate at semi auto. And the Springer M1A takes the cake, its worth every dollar and cent you will spend on it. Its basically the semi auto version of the M14

P.B.Walsh
July 27, 2009, 08:02 PM
"What does MOA mean?"

Well, the un-tecnical abswer is this; MOA is about 1" at 100 yards, 2" at 200, 3" at 300 yards, and so forth, this is the most baisic answer, sorry I don't know the tecnical version of MOA. :)

tactikel
July 27, 2009, 10:00 PM
MOA = minute of angle, which is very close to 1" at 100 yards (not exactly tho)- The Holy Grail of rifles in the pre war era was a 1 MOA rifle. Now they are common place (and in some cases guaranteed!). A 1 MOA battle rifle will keep a round on a head size target at 500 yards :what:- plenty of accuracy for a combat weapon.

cameron.personal
July 27, 2009, 10:51 PM
My DSA will run 1.25MOA with match ammo and a cool trigger puller.

Cameron

azvarminthunter
July 27, 2009, 11:01 PM
I would say they are pretty accurate. I would agree to the comment made in reply to your post that they are more accurate than most people who shoot them. One rifle which suprised me on its accuracy was the Schmidt-Rubin K 31. I had read prior to buying the rifle that it was accurate, but was suprise as to just how accurate. For the price this rifle makes a nice addition to a collection. The ammo is a bit expense, but worth it.

Winston_Smith
July 27, 2009, 11:09 PM
My DSA will run 1.25MOA with match ammo and a cool trigger puller.

What are the specs on that rifle/optics?

RP88
July 27, 2009, 11:20 PM
the average for your stock 'battle rifle' (AR, M4gery, ACR, SCAR, etc.) will be about 1.5-2" MOA. Plenty accurate for any application that they can be used for.

Your M14 and FAL-types are just as if not slightly more accurate.

taliv
July 27, 2009, 11:44 PM
Your M14 and FAL-types are just as if not slightly more accurate.

you know, in the absence of experience, there are lots of opinions on this board and no shortage of run-of-the-mill misinformation. but for the life of me, I don't understand how you reach some of these conclusions.

happygeek
July 28, 2009, 01:39 AM
ya, i just kinda threw the ar-15 in there because i think a true ''assault rifle'' is fully automatic.

submachine gun: auto that shoots pistol caliber rounds
assault rifle: selective fire rifle that shoots intermediate rounds from a magazine
battle rifle: rifle that shoots a full size rifle round
machine gun: auto that's belt fed

These are the common dictionary term definitions I could find that separate some types of guns. A battle rifle can be selective fire, the distinction between a battle rifle and an assault rifle is the full size rifle round vs the intermediate round. According to the dictionary, to be an assault rifle it has to have selective fire; pistol grips, flash suppressors, muzzle shrouds, the color black, and other scary looking features do not an assault rifle make. If someone in a debate on gun rights in the states actually knows the dictionary definition of an assault rifle (and has fired both assault rifles and battle rifles), chances are they're on the pro-gun side.

So yes, an AR-15 isn't an assault rifle, but it's not a battle rifle either.

Note: sorry to run off on a tangent like that, it just irks me how the ignorant side in the gun debate uses terms, hence I'm prone to run off on rants about dictionary definitions of things.

To get back on topic though, my National Match M1A is a good deal more accurate than I am. I'm doing good to hit half my shots at a man size target at 300m with iron sights, whereas that rifle is capable of hitting a man size target at over 800m.

ScareyH22A
July 28, 2009, 01:42 AM
I wonder what an MP5 will do.

Birdmang
July 28, 2009, 01:43 AM
On COD4 I get 1'MOA from one side of map to the other full auto with my MP5, so I guess they are sweet guns.

H2O MAN
July 28, 2009, 05:48 AM
Quote:
Your M14 and FAL-types are just as if not slightly more accurate.

taliv

you know, in the absence of experience, there are lots of opinions on this board and no shortage of run-of-the-mill misinformation. but for the life of me, I don't understand how you reach some of these conclusions.

I know the M14 and AR can be equally accurate, but I'm not sure the same can be said for the FAL.

benEzra
July 28, 2009, 08:12 AM
What does MOA mean?
Minute of Angle, as has already been mentioned; outside of shooting, they are more commonly called arcminutes. 1 MOA or 1 arcminute is equal to 1/60 of a degree, or 1/21600 of a circle. That works out to 1.047 inches at 100 yards, 2.094 inches at 200 yards, 3.142 inches at 300 yards, et cetera.

briansmithwins
July 28, 2009, 09:27 AM
Some sample group sizes from my experiance.

AR15 (1/7 twist barrel): 1.25 MOA with PPU 75gr OTM.
Uzi (16" barrel): 4MOA with 124gr S&B
SKS (Norinco): 2MOA with Yugo M67
AK (Arsenal SLR107FR): 4MOA with Yugo M67

I'll be testing the Uzi today with it's new 10.2" barrel. BSW

sprice
July 28, 2009, 12:07 PM
ok, this isn't an moa thread or a what is a battle rifle thread- although i enjoyed learning about that i just didn't want to say battle rifle and assault rifle; so i just threw the ar-15 in there. ok? and this isn't a smg/ cod four thread either- but the mp5 comment was pretty funny!

cameron.personal
July 28, 2009, 01:21 PM
My DSA will run 1.25MOA with match ammo and a cool trigger puller.
What are the specs on that rifle/optics?

DSA SA58 PARA Tactical Carbine 16.25" fluted chrome moly barrel with Leupold 1.5-5x20mm SPR scope in LaRue SPR mount and black hill red box 175gr.

Trigger job by Bill Springfield at a clean(ish) 4lbs.

Cameron

USSR
July 28, 2009, 01:47 PM
Trigger job by Bill Springfield at a clean(ish) 4lbs.


Bill also did a trigger job on my DSA FAL. Does good work.

Don

lencac
July 28, 2009, 04:13 PM
azvarminthunter, you think K31s are accurate with surplus ammo try one using handloaded ammo. I shoot mine with 168 gr. Sierra Match King bullets and 43 gr. Reloder 15. If it had a scope I know it would be EASILY well under 1 MOA.
Heck I get 1 MOA with the open sights.
After doing some checking I find they have very tight chambers and a short throat which mean accuracy and that the mil-spec ammo was obviously made to very tight tolerences.

Bass Killer
July 28, 2009, 07:16 PM
I wonder what an MP5 will do.

The MP5 variants all shoot at a greater distance and amount of power. Due to the rifle twist and barrel lengths. Combat proven and tested, but its a Sub

Winston_Smith
July 28, 2009, 07:28 PM
DSA SA58 PARA Tactical Carbine 16.25" fluted chrome moly barrel with Leupold 1.5-5x20mm SPR scope in LaRue SPR mount and black hill red box 175gr.

Trigger job by Bill Springfield at a clean(ish) 4lbs.

Thanks cameron, good info.

RP88
July 28, 2009, 08:06 PM
Taliv: Then enlighten me?

We've all seen how ARs can shoot just as far and accurate as some of the longer-range rifles. It all depends on the model/build/etc. I don't see how I would be wrong; if you do, then shoot me a PM. But of course, if it came down to an 800-yard shot, I would not be picking up even a match AR over something like an M1A. So don't worry, I'm not giving an intermediate caliber weapon too much credit.

sprice
July 28, 2009, 08:20 PM
ok, seriously- no more bolt action and mp5 b.s. i just want information on m1a/m14, ar-15, and fal series rifles.

taliv
July 28, 2009, 08:24 PM
FALs are just not known for accuracy. At all. M14s aren't either, unless you do a lot of work to them. (see H2O's pictures for what it takes to make one fit for purpose)

It's just not clear to me at all how you arrived at the conclusion their accuracy is equal or better than ARs. It's the sort of statement that pretty much needs to be accompanied by supporting data.

As for the ACR, I don't even know anyone who has shot one for groups, so I'm curious where you got your info on this. Actually, now that I think about it, I can't say I've seen any SCAR groups posted either.

RP88
July 28, 2009, 08:27 PM
I honestly didn't know that it took THAT much tuning to get it to work. But, doesn't that apply to the AR as well?

cameron.personal
July 28, 2009, 08:28 PM
RP88 I am a HUGE FAL fan but there is no way a FAL is as accurate as an AR, the locking shoulder versus a rotary bolt. No way.

AR15s with a hand matched bolt and a decent chamber and barrel will put out sub 0.5 MOA all day. A good FAL with a really well fit locking shoulder will not do that. I have a DSA SA58 with a Badger (http://www.badgerbarrelsinc.com/) chrome moly and a really nice lock up, with match ammo and a similar optic I cannot get it under 1.25MOA which is very accurate for a FAL. Don't even get me started on the triggers...

All four of my AR15s...
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/AR15s/th_3ARsd-1.jpg (http://s561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/AR15s/?action=view&current=3ARsd-1.jpg) http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/Shooting/th_DanielDefenseTarget2.jpg (http://s561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/Shooting/?action=view&current=DanielDefenseTarget2.jpg)


are more accurate than my best FAL.
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/DSA%20FAL/th_DSARight.jpg (http://s561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/DSA%20FAL/?action=view&current=DSARight.jpg) http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/Shooting/th_DSA100Yards01.jpg (http://s561.photobucket.com/albums/ss60/cameron_personal/Shooting/?action=view&current=DSA100Yards01.jpg)



Cameron

taliv
July 28, 2009, 08:35 PM
But, doesn't that apply to the AR as well?

no, actually it doesn't, which is kinda the point. most out of the box DPMS/RRA/etc ARs are pretty accurate already.

TheFallGuy
July 28, 2009, 09:47 PM
I think it depends on the M14. A buddy has a polytec that 1.5 MOA with me on the trigger. I used a springfield that got 1 MOA. Some brands get much better.

chauncey
July 28, 2009, 11:16 PM
one of the problems with the FAL is "stringing". as the barrel gets hot the shots will drop vertically.

the M14/M1A is also easier to shoot accurately due to its better balance and heavier weight with a wood stock, and some of the best iron sights ever put on a rifle. the longer sight radius doesn't hurt either.

there is some suggestion that 18" barrels are more accurate on FAL's than 21", due to barrel harmonics, but I can't comment on that as I have no experience with a 21" FAL.

I agree that a 308 AR will be more accurate and easier to scope than both, but I'm not an AR fan.

HK/PTR is almost as accurate as a stock M1A, if you are willing to consider it. easier to scope, also.

sprice
July 28, 2009, 11:37 PM
how much are those?

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