My complaint against milsurp rifles


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50caliber123
July 27, 2009, 12:22 PM
I have owned 2 Mausers (1 German made during WWII, 1 Yugo M48a), 2 Enfields (1 No5mk1 jungle carbine, 1 ishy jungle carbine in .308), 2 AK's (1 Saiga 7.62x39 unconverted, 1 MAK-90), 2 SKS's (1 Yugo M59/66, 1 Russian Tula), 1 Mosin 1938, and 1 Swiss K31. Of all these rifles mentioned, I kept the yugo M59/66 sks (upgraded to tech-sights) and the Ishy Enfield in .308, I sold the rest. I swear, I will never buy another surplus gun again! These rifles were expensive to service, the ammo can be hard to find, the sights are terrible. I am only 23, but have had 25 or so rifles, pistols, and shotguns pass through hands and have held on to 6 total. I know I prbably sound crazy, but if I could do it over, I would have gone for quality instead of quantity. I would have bought commercial new or used instead. Anyone else have similar experiences or did I happen to find a bunch of lemons from around the world that couldn't shoot for crap?

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BunnyPuncher
July 27, 2009, 12:31 PM
Milsurp ain't primarily about performance. I would have thought that was common sense. Most of these guns are 60+ years old, many pumped out during a war time panic. Some are accurate, most are inaccurate by "paper punching" standards, all can hit a man and kill em dead at range.

It is about the history. If you don't care for/about the history, you are indeed best served buying a commercial rifle.

I'm surprised you're not mad they don't come with a warranty.

Mikee Loxxer
July 27, 2009, 12:32 PM
You sold a K31 and kept one of those crappy Ishapore Enfields?

NCsmitty
July 27, 2009, 12:35 PM
I will never buy another surplus gun again!

That is good news, you can leave them alone, so people like myself who appreciate a good milsurp, can own them.


NCsmitty

Bula
July 27, 2009, 12:36 PM
What they lack in finesse, they make up for in weight and cosmoline. They are what they are, old battle rifles.

50caliber123
July 27, 2009, 12:39 PM
the ishy could outshoot the k31 all day long. Comparing ammo would be GP-11 vs indian surplus circa 1978. The guy I sold the K31 to planned to tweak it and drop serious money into it. I have to think that some other people must have had similar experiences.

Publius1688
July 27, 2009, 12:56 PM
It's all about the history, and we milsurp guys like "getting in" our guns. But seriously, you didn't like the K31? Those things are tack drivers!

50caliber123
July 27, 2009, 01:03 PM
I have one requirement for a rifle besides reliability: 4" groups at 50 yards from a rest. If the rifle can't do that, I don't keep it. I can shoot a bead-sighted shotgun with slugs, offhand and get groups that good. That K31 could barely pull a 6" group at 50 yards. I bought it, buying into the hype that the swiss surplus guns are tack-drivers. Perhaps like everything else, there are lemons, and I got one. But I won't buy another one to see, I'm too poor a college student to do that at this time.

COMPNOR
July 27, 2009, 01:21 PM
What exactly were you expecting out of these Rifles? And what do you mean hard to service? Or ammo hard to find? I've got no problem finding 7.62x54R or 7.5x55 Swiss. And seeing as how I shoot a clip/mag at a time and call it good, I'm not likely to run out anytime soon.

Oh and those AK's you listed, I doubt are Milsurps.

BunnyPuncher
July 27, 2009, 01:22 PM
If you couldn't get a K31 with GP11 ammo to group under 4" at 50 yards then you must have bought the worlds worst K31 rifle. GP11 is good ammo.

Go buy yourself a Remington 700 or AR 15 and leave the milsurps alone. I too hope you never buy another milsurp.

greenlion
July 27, 2009, 01:22 PM
Sounds like you need to stick with modern Remchesterbys off the gun store shelf. I find nothing more entertaining than taking apart an old WW2 bolt action to see how the builders dealt with certain design issues. I have one that there is no way in hell I would put a round through its in such poor condition, but I like it. Its history man! There was a series of History Channel (I think) shows a while back, each one spotlighting a weapon, or weapons, from the different countries during WW2. I found this fascinating to watch. Then you could walk into a gun show and see the very rifles shown in the history show sitting on the tables for 40-100 dollars, some in great condition. Who could pass them up? Tell me you can watch Enemy at the Gates without wanting a Mosin Nagant for $89. You can see the whole philosophy of each nation wound up in the designs of those old rifles...if you look hard enough. :)

JHK94
July 27, 2009, 01:27 PM
The best groups I've ever shot with iron sights are with my pre-1898 receivered Finnish M39. The sights are great, the accuracy is great...and the price was great. And don't get me started on how much I love the history.

DammitBoy
July 27, 2009, 01:30 PM
If you can't appreciate their historic significance, don't buy milsurps.

(edit)

+11 on greenlion's comments

KenWP
July 27, 2009, 01:31 PM
Most I ever paid for a Mil surplus gun was $45 and its a P17 and shoots better then some new guns. If I wanted a gun that shot like new I would buy a new gun. It's hard to find a new gun that's all beat to hell out of the box that you don't mind throwing behind the seat of the truck for the occasional shot at shomething.

R.W.Dale
July 27, 2009, 01:54 PM
Like the op I've been trending toward quality vs quantity. I've sold off dozens of milsurps and replaced them with a few carefully selected firearms.

BTW. I've owned several k31 rifles and in my opinion they do not live up to the accuracy mythology you fanboys laud apoun them and to date the only plate match where they were entered into competition they were beaten quite soundly by a No4 mkI

1KPerDay
July 27, 2009, 01:55 PM
Expensive to service? What exactly required service? :confused:

jimmyraythomason
July 27, 2009, 01:57 PM
I just wish I'd had the good sense to keep all of those M98s (including Latin contracts), 1911 Swiss S.R., 1914 SMLE Enfields, Gew 88s ,Arisakas and the like that I bought at flea markets in the early '70s for $35-$45. The $75 Egyptian Hakims and U.S.G.I. M1 carbines. I just didn't appreciate them then. Live and learn.

tkopp
July 27, 2009, 02:08 PM
They weren't built to be tack drivers. They were built to be used by people with minimal training performing minimal service under rough conditions. Many were cranked out as cheaply as possible, by companies who'd never made firearms before.

If you want a light, well-made, accurate hunting rifle, then buy one. I'm rather tempted to pick up a dripping-with-cosmoline mosin and a crate of ammo and stash it at Mom's place out in the country. If anything ever goes really wrong in the city I'd be headed there anyway, and $300 for a reliable bolt rifle and 880 rounds of ammo is a hard deal to beat. It won't make a 300 yard shot, but it doesn't have to. And when it never sees use it will still be perfect in twenty years if I ever want to get rid of it.

ArmedBear
July 27, 2009, 02:24 PM
I've been trending toward quality vs quantity. I've sold off dozens of milsurps and replaced them with a few carefully selected firearms.

I'm about to do the same.

krs
July 27, 2009, 02:40 PM
jimmyraythomason:"I just wish I'd had the good sense to keep all of those M98s (including Latin contracts), 1911 Swiss S.R., 1914 SMLE Enfields, Gew 88s ,Arisakas and the like that I bought at flea markets in the early '70s for $35-$45. The $75 Egyptian Hakims and U.S.G.I. M1 carbines. I just didn't appreciate them then. Live and learn".

+1
You and me both

GarandOwner
July 27, 2009, 02:45 PM
I have no prob holding MOA with both my 1903A3 and mosin nagant....... My garands are close and my M1 carbine will.....well it stays on paper and what it lacks in accuracy it makes up for in Fun! Judging from quantity and time frame you had the rifles it sounds like you were just impatient. Even modern guns won't shoot good if the SHOOTER is a lemon. :neener: ........so my guess is user error :D

ArmedBear
July 27, 2009, 02:56 PM
I could do it over, I would have gone for quality instead of quantity. I would have bought commercial new or used instead.

With a few exceptions, me, too. And those exceptions aren't milsurps.

My milsurps have been a waste of my limited resources.

stchman
July 27, 2009, 03:02 PM
I just bought (2) Mosin Nagant rifles. A 1926 M91/30 and an M44 carbine.

The M44 shoots pretty good. The 91/30 has the sticky bolt syndrome. Apparently there are burrs on the edge of the chamber that need to be filed down.

All in all they were cheap, ammo is cheap, and fun to own.

HB
July 27, 2009, 03:20 PM
They weren't built to be tack drivers. They were built to be used by people with minimal training performing minimal service under rough conditions. Many were cranked out as cheaply as possible, by companies who'd never made firearms before.

That's exactly why I'm not a huge fan of them. I understand the interest in the history of them, but as practical firearms, I don't see much potential. I do own an SKS but it seems to be more accurate than the mosins on average.

My experience with most mil-surps is that:
1. They have poor worksmanship
2. For the money, they are inaccurate
3. Sights are poor
4. Triggers are less than perfect
5. Ammo is becoming an issue
6. They are clunky

I will certainly never understand people who buy mil-surps expecting them to be amazing tack drivers. They are one of the worst choices for a first rifle as well.

That being said, everybody's got their thing. I like lever actions and .22's.

Storm
July 27, 2009, 03:23 PM
These rifles were expensive to service, the ammo can be hard to find, the sights are terrible.

Aw heck, that's some of the best part about milsurps!

BTW, don't sell the Ishapore Enfields short. They can be excellent rifles.

jimmyraythomason
July 27, 2009, 03:26 PM
"5. Ammo is becoming an issue" HB,name ANY firearm that that isn't true about in some respect.

minutemen1776
July 27, 2009, 03:27 PM
My milsurps have been a waste of my limited resources.

Those are strong words. I hate that your milsurp experience has been so negative.

I think that, like a lot of things, some shooters just don't "get" milsurps, and that's OK. Personally, I don't "get" 1911s, DA revolvers, and hard-kicking magnums, but I do "get" milsurps. For me, it's the history, and I suspect that's the case with most true gun lovers who get into milsurps. Really, their only other appeal (and market) is for the highly "value conscious" gun buyer. There are quite a few of these guys, but I doubt that many of them are truly gun afficionados. For many, there's a desire to simply have a gun, but there's no desire to spend much to get one. In that case, milsurps offer a cheap ticket to gun ownership, and that is also OK. The problem, though, is when someone buys a milsurp with false expectations. Most are reasonably accurate, but for the guys I see at the range who love to shoot four-leaf-clover-sized groups with heavy-barreled bolt guns off a rest, a milsurp just won't do. In the end, if you want new performance just get a new gun and be done with it.

HB
July 27, 2009, 03:39 PM
There are quite a few of these guys, but I doubt that many of them are truly gun afficionados. For many, there's a desire to simply have a gun, but there's no desire to spend much to get one. In that case, milsurps offer a cheap ticket to gun ownership, and that is also OK. The problem, though, is when someone buys a milsurp with false expectations. Most are reasonably accurate, but for the guys I see at the range who love to shoot four-leaf-clover-sized groups with heavy-barreled bolt guns off a rest, a milsurp just won't do. In the end, if you want new performance just get a new gun and be done with it.
That probably hits the nail on the head. I really don't see much value in mil-surps, outside of mosins. For $79 you get reusable fireworks I guess :D
I look at it like this. When I go to the CMP store, I pick up a 30-06 that is beat to hell and very dirty. It may or not be a good shooter, but it will probably shoot into 4-5'' at 100 yards. TO ME, that is not really a good deal, considering it will cost $500...
They are fun to look at and fire on occasion, but aren't practical for the vast majority of my shooting. Kind of fit into the pistol grip shotgun, AR pistol, .500 S&W, and MAC-10 category. Fun Toys.

JTW Jr.
July 27, 2009, 03:40 PM
see if there are any VMBAR shoots in your area. ( Vintage Military Bolt Action Rifle )

That will open your eyes to the ways of the milsurps. While I like my AR's , Tikka's , etc.. I love my Mausers and Enfields. No fancy do dad's , gadgets , hickey ma doos , optics , etc , just a rifle , a sling and some ammo.... color me happy with my milsurps.

:)

Loanshark
July 27, 2009, 03:56 PM
My only milsurp experience is with the K31. I have two. I liked the first one so much I had to get a second... I can get better than 4" groups @ 50 yards out of both of my samples all day long, in a hurricane if need be. That doesn't mean there are not bad samples out there.

It's not a particularly handy rifle when compared to modern hunting rifles. It's heavy and long, but I still like it. I feel I can count on it. It wouldn't bother me to throw it in the back of my truck or strap it to my ATV. I shoot lefty so it's not the most comfortable gun for me, I wouldn't want to go to a gun fight with it. But then I'm not a gunfighter!!:neener:

dkk73
July 27, 2009, 04:03 PM
Well, I've got an SKS sitting in the safe next to a POF 20" .308 AR, because I've felt both ways about this.

I got the POF after spending a lot of time and money (for me) trying to make a functional and accurate M1A platform. I know that that M1A is "military-pattern" rather than mil-surp, but some of the issues were the same for me.

Mil-surp and military-pattern copy guns have enormous historical and esthetic value. A lot of the (for lack of a better term) "older" shooters I like really like and respect have an affinity for them. They represent history, heritage, and an interest in guns other than as tools or toys to optimize for modern goals.

That said, I think I have been "sold" too much on how accurate these guns are. Some examples are, in some hands, but even when they are in spec it is to military standards. Which is not always real satisfying when you are trying to push your skills on the range and don't want to wonder if it's you or the gun.

I think 8 MOA at 50 yds is a pretty generous limit. ;)

There are other practical reasons to own them (e.g. the Mosin stock pile example), but I think too much info is out there implying that they will do all things for all people.

That said, I like them! But, I sure understand where the OP is coming from.

Cheers,
David

Deckard
July 27, 2009, 04:07 PM
so my guess is user error +1 I've put a lot of shooters with modern rifles to shame with my 104 year old Swedish Mauser. I'm looking to pick up a K31 next...wonderful rifles in my opinion. And I would rather have any, that's right any, milsurp than a soulless Remchester.

That said I wouldn't spend my hard earned cash on a Mosin Nagant or a wartime K98, but show me a nice SMLE, K31, or an FN 49 (which I have been lusting after) and my money is down and I'm out the door.

61chalk
July 27, 2009, 05:27 PM
All hope is not gone 50.caliber123, take a deep breath, relax, an realize your biggest problem was not buying a CMP M1 Garand. CMP sell the 30/06 ammo for 75.00 for 194 rds. in the enbloc clips. Your still young grasshopper, now go forth down this path until you hear the "PING"......

lencac
July 27, 2009, 05:44 PM
I'm surprised you're not mad they don't come with a warranty.
Now that is funny chit and I don't care who you are :D

I have a K31 and it is an absolute tack driver. If you had one and it didn't shoot there is only 2 possibilities 1: your K31 didn't have any rifling left in the bore and being that is a near impossibility it must be choice No.2: you are a terrible shot.
I put my money on No. 2

Come on guys, this guy must be pulling our collective legs. He can't really be serious :scrutiny:
Kind of like buying an LS6 Chevelle and complaining about the fuel mileage. :what:

armoredman
July 27, 2009, 05:57 PM
I have had a Springfield 1903A3, a Mauser K98, M-1 carbine, and Enfield No4Mk1*, and I only sold any of them due to financial issues. I still have the Enfield, and it will shoot MOA with one handload, great rifle, paid $50 for it, got WAY more than my moneys' worth. But, if someone doesn't like them, that's OK, too, more for me to buy when the finances change. :) Go get the generic Remmys and Savages, no big deal, 'cause I leave those to you, no use for them. :D

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b13/armoredman/enfieldpic.jpg

Col. Plink
July 27, 2009, 06:18 PM
I have a Garand and a Yugo SKS M59, and have been impressed with the accuracy, and rest assured they are in good condition and ready to throw down if needed. They were built to meet that need and they do it with authority.

Hey Loanshark: Those guys weren't fathers, they were...MOTHERS!

fireflyfather
July 27, 2009, 06:37 PM
I have a run-of-the-mill 1943 izzy Mossin. My only accuracy complaint was a loose front sight. I was going to get micro-click sights anyway, so it was no big deal. I can routinely get 2"-2.5" groups at 50 yards using my crappy reloads (cast lead bullets, very small charges of very fast powder). I can hit a man sized target at 200 yards using those same rounds (meant for 25 yard practice. Had to dial in the sights at about 700 yards). With the new sights, it's a LOT better, but even with the old ones, 200 yards with surplus 70's czech ammo? no problem. If the sight hadn't been loose? 400 yards probably would have been doable. With the new sights, full power loads, etc, I'm betting 3-4 moa if I do my part. This has been pretty typical of most mosin shooters I have met.

You DO have to tweak these rifles, though. Make sure that they are screwed in tightly to the stock (that right there can make a big difference!), that you have gotten all the cosmoline out of them, and that you are (hopefully) using fireformed cases neck sized for that rifle. Do that and watch those groups close up. Sure, if you want moa groups with factory ammo, most milsurps aren't going to do that, but that's not what they are for. Those factory rifles also cost 7 times as much as my mosin did, 3 times if you include the new sights and a few reloading tools for the new caliber.

DMK
July 27, 2009, 06:38 PM
I will certainly never understand people who buy mil-surps expecting them to be amazing tack drivers. They are one of the worst choices for a first rifle as well.
Two words: Unreasonable expectations

If one has little interest in history then milsurp collecting is a waste of time and money.

Unfortunately, most folks are drawn to low cost and ignore all reason.

HB
July 27, 2009, 06:38 PM
I also always love it when Mil-surp guys call modern rifle "generic" and "soulless"... Can you imagine anything more generic than the 30 million Mosins :D

jimmyraythomason
July 27, 2009, 06:41 PM
Ditto what DMK said.

ArmedBear
July 27, 2009, 06:51 PM
WRT history: I don't need to OWN everything ever made, to appreciate history. I found that it's probably not healthy for me to need to own tons of stuff I don't even want to use.

WRT accuracy: I don't expect milsurps to be really accurate. I'm also not really interested in hucking lead in a general direction.

WRT utility: They make lousy hunting rifles, and if they were really good for anything, they wouldn't be available cheap.

WRT rifle ranges: BORING. Working up a new handload renders them necessary, but otherwise, I have no desire to go to a formal rifle range and do anything, or sit on my butt and shoot, one way or another. Shooting off sticks at 300 yards or more in the brush, at improvised targets, is more fun and better for hunting practice.

WRT heavy barrels and benchrest: See above, under "rifle ranges."

Milsurps just don't offer anything I really use. Sure, it's neat to have a closet full of old rifles. I like to hold them sometimes. If you don't want the space or money for anything better...

If I want to shoot corrosive ammo, I'll shoot black powder. If I want to shoot a long way with a rifle, I'll shoot handloads in a rifle that's worth loading for (Swedish Mausers aren't exactly "milsurps" any more, BTW). If I want to have fun at a range, I'll shoot Sporting Clays. If I want to compete, I belong to a little pistol club that shoots in the Winter when it's dark and cold.

Milsurps became just about "owning" crap. I'm kinda sick of quantity over quality. I'd rather have one more really nice shotgun than the pile of smelly old junk in my closet. I can only shoot and clean so many guns.

And there's more to life than shooting, too...

Dazen
July 27, 2009, 06:55 PM
My M1 garand, 1917 enfield and my 2 1903a3's shoot great. Your nuts if you think the craftsmanship that went into them are poor and the same go for the sights too.

junyo
July 27, 2009, 07:12 PM
You're buy surplus rifles in chamberings that haven't been in active service in decades. Exactly one nation on earth has ever used the K31, exactly how available do you expect the ammo to be? If you're buying milsurp in anything other than 7.62x39, 7.62x54, maybe 30-06 or 7.62x51 then you're not buying it for economy.

That said my first Enfield was under a hundred bucks, is "baseball bat reliable" as the saying goes, and more accurate than me. Also it also has some of the finest sights ever put on a rifle. Thanks to stocking up back when ammo was cheap, ammo cost isn't a huge issue, yet. So I'm good with the purchase.

Dr.Rob
July 27, 2009, 07:19 PM
Best mil-surp I ever picked up was a Brno made Kar98k. I am positive this rifle was purchased in the states via mail order somewhere between the late 40's early 60's and the origional owner cut the stock in half to make a cheap 'sporter.' It had an ugly winter trigger and was in dure need of a cleaning, but hey it was free to me for the taking. After a good scrubbing and a few phone calls to get a military stock, I had maybe $50 in the rifle. With Yugo surplus ammo (196gr) that rifle outshoots my Remington 1903A3, which I think everyone will agree were very well made.

Sorry your experiences have been so awful. In my experience military small arms are some of the BEST designed and manufactured pieces out there. There are exceptions of course (Chauchat, late was Japanese pistols, and anything French :p) but overall making rifles is NOT a place governments cut corners UNLESS its late war and they are on the losing side.

PS I like France, and the French in general but their firearm designs often just leave me puzzled.

jws527
July 27, 2009, 07:25 PM
I have a modest collection of seven weapons, four of which are milsurp. Thing is, I don't hunt and I rarely shoot (once per month, at most). The only public shooting range in my area is off a poorly maintained dirt trail in the middle of a national forest, and my low-slung sport sedan doesn't appreciate the trip.

This means that I ultimately derive most of the satisfaction that I get from actually owning these weapons by looking at them or showing them off to close friends and family members. And guess which of these generate (by far) the most interest? I'll give you a hint: not the Savage .22. :)

P.S. - average price of said milsurps was $145 each, and all have retained 100% of their value relative to inflation (some have even appreciated). I wouldn't consider that a particularly expensive investment, let alone a "waste of resources."

mgkdrgn
July 27, 2009, 07:32 PM
but if I could do it over, I would have gone for quality instead of quantity

That is a -very- good lesson to learn. You should consider yourself lucky to have learned it so early in life.

Buy quality, take care of it, and it will serve you well for many many years. It is, in the long run, much more economical then buying cheap and replacing it when it breaks. It's true for just about anything mechanical you care to mention.

Lightning12
July 27, 2009, 07:33 PM
I love the history of milsurp rifles, but I went thru a similar learning curve of deciding that they were not the best tools for shooting at the range, which is the only place I have to shoot. I have had 3 enfields, a 1903, a sporterized 1903, a 1903a3, a FAL, and an SKS. The only ones I still own are the 1903a3 and an enfield no. 4. I don't think I will part with these two either. I don't shoot them often, but I like having them. They are icons of another time in history.

Chaz

cowhide1
July 27, 2009, 07:37 PM
I just like the fact that all of my milsurps have at LEAST doubled in value in the last 3 years!! Oh, and my swedish mauser outshoots my modern guns all day long.

ArmedBear
July 27, 2009, 07:42 PM
Haven't found any surplus Swedish Mausers lately.:)

Colt SAAs were milsurps once, too.

I think that, by "milsurp", people usually mean the guns that are readily available for cheap at the moment, not collectibles that were once sold off by the military but haven't been seen at surplus outlets for a very long time.

50caliber123
July 27, 2009, 08:26 PM
If I'm a terrible shot, then I wonder how I can shoot my remaining six rifles off hand and beat the pants out of those other rifles I mentioned. From a rest, my ishy jungle carbine usually prints 2" groups at 100 yards with the notch rear sights. I consider myself decent, regularly shooting my remaining guns and happy that I no longer get frustrated with crappy milsurps. My yugo sks is also an example of a budget gun that can shoot tight groups all day. That being said, I think that I should have dropped money on an M1 garand or M1 Carbine instead of all those others. I do appreciate history, but like armedbear said, it has been a drain on my limited resources. I recently paid 500 for a nib blackhawk convertible pistol and couldn't be happier with it. I regularly shoot at 25 yards (not feet) as that is the shortest distance at the range that I go to.

My remaining guns are the yugo sks and enfield ishy carbine mentioned earlier, as well as a hi-point carbine, a marlin odel 60, a ruger mini thirty, and that blackhawk convertible. I recently parted with an 870, hate the ergonomics and prefer the mossberg 500, but the lop is about an inch too long for me to comfortably shoot. I like history and used to be able to appreciate just having historic guns, but after shooting since age 10, I come to expect some accuracy or have guns that fill a need. I deer hunt, so accuracy is important, I don't want to wound any animal and it suffer unneccesarily on my behalf. The reason I mentioned the AK variants was to highlight their shortcomings: The saiga had a lousy trigger. The MAK-90 had a great trigger for an AK, but rattled too much in the woods. Any guns that clunk around like that scare all the game away. I wish my luck would have been better than it has been, but I am thankful for the lessons learned, that I was able to part with the guns that never could shoot for me, and that perhaps they will be appreciated by someone else. n some ways, less is more.

greenlion
July 27, 2009, 08:26 PM
I can see that if someone started out shooting with a worn out WW2 service rifle, the first time they stepped up to a modern synthetic stocked, scoped, lighter weight, accurate rifle (even something like a nice savage bolt action) they would be impressed, and wonder why they were bothering with an old beat up rifle that can barely hold 6 inches at a hundred yards.

For those of us who entered the other way around though, picking up an Enfield or Mauser with its thick dense wood stock and heavy forged metal parts, hand fitted in many instances, brings back a time when things were made with honest sweat and hard work. A time when dedicated workers invested a bit of themselves in every rifle they assembled, a time when things were made for functionality and durability, and weren't as disposable or glittery as they are now with all their bells and whistles.

Dr_2_B
July 27, 2009, 08:29 PM
I think I go for the ruggedness of the milsurps. I suppose it's the same reason many of us drive SUVs.

elmerfudd
July 28, 2009, 01:30 AM
Buying a milsurp and being disappointed when it doesn't perform like a Remington 700 is like buying a classic muscle car and expecting it to perform like a modern sports car.

It's about having something old, that was likely used in combat, that you can still shoot recreationally and in some small way understand what the soldiers of another time and place went through.

If you're buying it for hunting you're either very cheap or you're missing the whole point.

jpwilly
July 28, 2009, 01:50 AM
Like most here I have a strong appreciation for the history and ingenuity that went in to building those old war horses. Mil Surps to me are fun shooters but I've never expected great things. That said I have a few that will give many rifles made today a run for the money, others are just plain fun.

Buck Kramer
July 29, 2009, 12:39 AM
Thats like someone saying 60-80 years from now that the m16 is a POS, technology updates the way and the quality rifles are made, just like anything else. If you dont like them stop buying them.

THE DARK KNIGHT
July 29, 2009, 01:06 AM
The saigas aren't milsurps, theyre newly manufactured sporters.

SP Shop Foreman
July 29, 2009, 01:53 PM
It always pays to know what you're talking about before opening wide while wearing large sized shoes. :D

http://clubs.odcmp.com/cgi-bin/report_eventAward.cgi?matchID=3426&eventID=14&awardID=1

ray Camp Perry Swiss Rifles #7 [-]


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Well I just got back from Camp Perry and it was a joyous and great time. My K31 performed well, but but it was me who let it down (5 pts short of bronze) but that's what brings us back year after year, the next day was better and I made the bronze with the M1, its a good rifle too.........I could see where the K31's did dominate the competition though!!!!! That is great!!!!! Ray

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageboard.yuku.com/topic/4771/t/Report---CMP-Eastern-Games--Camp-Butner-North-Carolina-USA.html

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I have a good dozen more, but this should give you an idea, 50caliber123.

ArmedBear
July 29, 2009, 01:56 PM
Buying a milsurp and being disappointed when it doesn't perform like a Remington 700 is like buying a classic muscle car and expecting it to perform like a modern sports car.

Exactly. A classic muscle car is something I want to look at when someone else waxes it and takes it to a car show. A sports car is something I actually want to drive.

But a Remington 700? Man, if I got a milsurp and it turned out to be that crappy, I would REALLY get rid of it fast.:D

JWF III
July 29, 2009, 02:17 PM
Mil-surps aren't for everyone. And in this past year and a half there have been a lot of new shooters buy milsurps purely because of the cost. I for one wouldn't trade my milsurps, one for one, for brand new rifles.

Some people want Ferraris, others want pick-up trucks. Some people look at nothing but the shine, while others only care if the tool will get the job done.

Give me the tool that will get the job done, period. I don't care how bad conditions are, I want the job done. I don't care if the job at hand is work related, home related, defense related, or anything else related. If it needs to be done, I want the proper tool to get it done.

That is exactly what a milsurp is. A tool to do a job. Heck that's exactly what every gun is. The art or beauty in the tool adds nothing to the performance, just the cost.

Wyman

SP Shop Foreman
July 29, 2009, 02:24 PM
Ferrari's, Fords, whatever......... What counts is what shows on the target. All the talk in the world won't change that.

Watch the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXy_9__xEf4

ArmedBear
July 29, 2009, 05:05 PM
Some people want Ferraris, others want pick-up trucks. Some people look at nothing but the shine, while others only care if the tool will get the job done

And some people can't tell that a Ferrari, for all its faults, isn't about "shine." Not that I really would want a Ferrari, or would be stupid enough to buy one instead of a pickup truck to haul stuff, but still...

All I figure is that I spent money on quantity, for things I have no use for, and I should have spent it on quality stuff that I can use for hunting, clay shooting, or doing other fun things outdoors. Blasting away with an old rifle isn't really all that fun, to me.

I appreciate history, but I don't have to OWN everything.

CZguy
July 29, 2009, 05:53 PM
I appreciate history, but I don't have to OWN everything.

:eek: :uhoh: Maybe just an M1 ? :cool:

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/M1.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/M1I.jpg

Or a 1903A3 Springfield?

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/03A3II.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/03A3IV.jpg

cowhide1
July 29, 2009, 05:56 PM
bear,
Samco global arms has swedish mausers for 595.00, you could even get the sniper version..

wrench
July 29, 2009, 06:12 PM
Oh my, I love my collection of old, former military rifles. I have one AR15, just because, but it never goes to the range, it just doesn't hold any fascination for me.
Give me an old mauser, mosin, M1, just about anything, and I'm happy as heck.
If all I could have were 'modern' rifles with plastic stocks and such, I think I'd take up a new hobby.
My mother used to say, "It takes all kinds to make a world".:)

MrFox
July 29, 2009, 06:34 PM
My guess is that you did not appreciate the crisp two stage trigger and the match grade accuracy of the K31. My dad regularly shoots into the mid 400s in milsurp matches at a local range. I shoot mid 300s with my yugo sks. Even my turkish mauser shoots 1-2 MOA sometimes.

Or maybe, just maybe, you got a bum k31. I bought mine for a cool $89.

You either "get it" or you don't. Different strokes for different folks.

chauncey
July 29, 2009, 09:45 PM
go drag some of those milsurps around in mud for a while or try using the stock as a club, then try the same thing with a Rem 7600 (an otherwise very good hunting rifle) and you will soon understand the difference.

or, send them to me. I have sold most of my hunting rifles to but milsurps, which shoot just as accurately.

part of the trick is being able to select a good "shooter". i usually look at muzzle crown and bore condition, but that is not always the final word.

kansas coyote
July 29, 2009, 11:20 PM
Im all about the history as a old soldier you appreciate the men who carried them as much as the gun . 2 cents

Gelgoog
July 30, 2009, 02:22 AM
so are we all just shooting full powered military cartridges at 50 yards and complaining about accuracy? these rifles were designed to shoot out to 500+ easily. I find that the further out you go the better accuracy I am actually getting.

I own alot of milsurp and by far the best of the bunch is the M1917 for great accuracy, very sold, excellent sights that are well protected...its simply the best military bolt action ever made IMHO. This is coming from a mauser fanatic btw.

SimpleIsGood229
July 30, 2009, 03:04 AM
It seems to me that milsurps (milsurp-esque, in the case of the Saiga) simply aren't your game. That's completely fine. More for me! :D

I must ask though; have you any experience with an M-1 Garand?

JimmAr
July 30, 2009, 03:30 AM
Whenever I get a slacker for performance.. I bed the sucker with JB weld.. then it shoots like a champ.. under 2" at 100 yards with irons with just random ammo.. if I shot through glass I would reload for it..

Some I do reload for like my bnz steyr k98.. shoots like a dream.

22-rimfire
July 30, 2009, 10:16 AM
I think milsurps can be fun. I'm not a big fan in general. But I can understand why folks buy them and like them. Understanding is all that is necessary.

SouthSideSaint
July 30, 2009, 10:32 AM
So ive been thinking about dipping my pen in the company ink that is milsurp. I want to start of ruskie and want a mosin. But what is the diffrence between the round and hex reciever? is one a better quality/will take a harsh beating? thanks for your help in advance.

jd46561
July 30, 2009, 11:27 AM
I think a person should learn about there milsurp firearm ,read up on its good points and bad. Learn how to tweek it, so to speak. These rifles went through a lot of punishment till now. Some have there bores shot out and people expect MOA, 1" at 100 yrds. I have had several rifles that out shot modern ones at the range. Enfields 1 mk 4, k31's, Swede mauser to name 3. I paid under 250.00 for them and they paid 800.00 -1200.00 for theirs. A lot of guys buy a milsurp rifle, take it to the range make it go boom!, Flinch!, then are suprised that they got 4-6 inches on the target. Shooting well takes time with any weapon. Its not always the guns fault. If you like modern firearms or milsurps or both, its all good. I like both personally, but I enjoy my milsurps more. Enjoy them both for what they are, and have fun. Arguing over which is best is pointless.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 30, 2009, 11:30 AM
what they lack in finesse, they make up for in weight and cosmoline

Ha ha.... :D :D

rino451
July 30, 2009, 11:46 AM
I have one requirement for a rifle besides reliability: 4" groups at 50 yards from a rest.

That's asking SO little from a firearm, that I'd have to question one's shooting experience and/or ability.

Also, it's apples-to-oranges to compare a milsurp anything shooting milsurp ammo against a Rem. 700 shooting new factory ammo, duh.

Being able to look back and count the $'s spend on cheap ammo and rifles and say, "Wow! Wish I had spent that $1,000 on something better." must be nice. You probably didn't spend the $1k all in one lump and it's obvious that being able to afford to shoot something now (back then) was better than waiting (saving) until you could spend all $1k on something better, later.

Sounds to me like you learned more about yourself that you did about milsurps.

Col. Plink
July 30, 2009, 06:42 PM
I look at firearms as an investment vehicle and an insurance policy. In both instances a milsurp in good condition for a good price provides a solid investment with enough toughness to bail your behind out in a bad situation. Something that holds its value while providing reliable, potentially vital, service!

They're designed to provide reliable, leathal power that can be dragged through the mud and used as a club if necessary, as others have noted. A little more performance in accuracy at the cost of real durability (which means ALL your reliability could desert you in the most important instant) and a lot more $ is not a trade-off in my opinion. If your life depends on making long shots on skittish game, then I can see why the tradeoff the other way wouldn't make any sense.

That said, accurate longrange hunting rifles don't cost much these days; I'm paying for reliability, durability, capacity, and speed of reload. As others have noted, guns are just tools and it's all about what you need and expect any tool to do for you.

a303smoker
August 1, 2009, 01:32 PM
The Many Moose My #4mk2 has taken up here in Canada... Some Out At 200-250 Yrds. With Battle Sights, You Don't Hear Them Complaining about milsurp and accuracy do ya?

Don357
August 1, 2009, 08:21 PM
What I'm reading sounds like a bunch of SPOILED kids who wouldn't know a REAL rifle if they were shot with it. It is true that many mil-surp's wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, that is unless someone who actually knows what they're doing is shooting it. However most will do better than the OP's afore mentioned " 4" groups at 50 yds " with almost anyone shooting.

I believe that the real problem is that the young people today associate mil-surp weapons with the military (and rightly so), and since they were brought up not respecting the military (or much of anything else for that matter), they find fault with the very things that made us (and them) free to even own guns. I dare you to tell a WWII soldier that his Garand could'nt hit a 4" target at 100yds, or a doughboy that his 1903 Springfield was a piece of inaccurate crap. Or a Jap that his 7.7mm Type 99 Arisaka was junk. Or how about a Wermacht trooper that his K98k Mauser was only good for a paperweight.
I tell you what, go stand 300 yds down range, and lets see how inaccurate my Yugo M48 Mauser is.


Don

swiftak
August 1, 2009, 08:48 PM
You guys don't think a college kid nowadays would appreciate anything to do with history do you? I'm with you guys, I love the mil-surps.

R.W.Dale
August 1, 2009, 08:54 PM
What I'm reading sounds like a bunch of SPOILED kids who wouldn't know a REAL rifle if they were shot with it. It is true that many mil-surp's wouldn't hit the broad side of a barn from the inside, that is unless someone who actually knows what they're doing is shooting it. However most will do better than the OP's afore mentioned " 4" groups at 50 yds " with almost anyone shooting.

I believe that the real problem is that the young people today associate mil-surp weapons with the military (and rightly so), and since they were brought up not respecting the military (or much of anything else for that matter), they find fault with the very things that made us (and them) free to even own guns. I dare you to tell a WWII soldier that his Garand could'nt hit a 4" target at 100yds, or a doughboy that his 1903 Springfield was a piece of inaccurate crap. Or a Jap that his 7.7mm Type 99 Arisaka was junk. Or how about a Wermacht trooper that his K98k Mauser was only good for a paperweight.
I tell you what, go stand 300 yds down range, and lets see how inaccurate my Yugo M48 Mauser is.


Don

What a load of opininated bs. The only demograpic or age group that remotely fits what you describe are much more likely to be called babyboomers than kids. You know the generation that 40 yrs ago actually did set out to do what you describe above. The very same folks running the show today. Oh but Lordy they love to point the fingers at everyone but themselves. I seem to remember somithing some charicter once said about those without sin being the first to cast stones? You know anything bout that revrend?

Ohio Gun Guy
August 1, 2009, 08:57 PM
I'll second the guys saying its not about how well they shoot. Although its a nice bonus when you get a good shooter. For me it is primarily about the history. I may not be able to afford a museum quality gun, but I find it facinating to think about where some of those guns have been.

Deckard
August 1, 2009, 09:07 PM
Yeah the history and the character of the guns is a big part, but if you just take your time, become familiar with the rifle your going to buy, and pick and choose to find a good one you can have the best of both worlds. You can have the old world looks and feel with precision shooting to boot. I'd rather put the effort in to get a good milsurp than save myself the trouble and buy a Remchester from Walmart.

jimmyraythomason
August 1, 2009, 09:12 PM
Well,40 years ago I was probably on my 2nd or 3rd mil-surp. All Latin contract Mausers. They were all shot iron sight and were accurate enough for hunting(if you could hit a soup can at 80-100 yards,you were good to go). Bought my first commercial deer rifle in 1972,a Remington 700ADL in 30.06. Except for looks and being a little lighter weight it didn't have much on the old Mausers. So, yeah I guess I have a little more appreciation for the old wardogs than some of the "youngsters". BTW, the mil-surps of today are the same guns we shot 40 years ago and, they like us, are 40 years older and showing their age too.

R.W.Dale
August 1, 2009, 09:14 PM
I just lovwe the folks who act as though firearms fall into two categories, Milsurps and walmart sale rack guns.

If those were my only choices Id simply spend all my $$$ on my Jeep

BTW many of your beloved historic pieces have a history consisting of little more than being made by forced-slave labor and then spending 60yrds forgotten in a warehouse. Not every milsurp saw action in Stalingrad, Bastonge or Ypres

jimmyraythomason
August 1, 2009, 09:21 PM
FWIW. there was no Wal-Mart and K-Mark was just starting. I bought my (new)guns at either Western Auto or Ace Hardware. I prefer to build my own hunting rifles from non collectable Mauser 98s.

Deer Hunter
August 1, 2009, 10:38 PM
Damn, I guess I'll go sell my Finns.

MCgunner
August 1, 2009, 11:20 PM
Misurps used to be so dirt cheap even I, the practical guy, couldn't resist a few. No, they're not very useful as hunting weapons. Oh, you CAN hunt with one, but a Mosin Nagant will NEVER equal even a Savage, let alone something like a Browning A bolt or Weatherby Mk V or such commercial rifles for sport shooting and hunting.

I never really got into buying a lot of milsurps 'cause I sorta realized this. The ones I have, I kept. The ones I have I bought dirt cheap, like an 80 dollar Hakim in VG condition or my 2 Norinco SKSs, a paratrooper for 115 and a rifle for 75 bucks or a 1888 commission rifle converted to 8x57S for $27.50. They're fun, they shoot, and are worth what I gave for 'em. Actually, now, they're worth quite a bit more than I gave for 'em.

jpwilly
August 1, 2009, 11:41 PM
All you Mil Surp haters can PM me. I'll be glad to give them a good home.

Gelgoog
August 2, 2009, 02:47 AM
BTW many of your beloved historic pieces have a history consisting of little more than being made by forced-slave labor and then spending 60yrds forgotten in a warehouse. Not every milsurp saw action in Stalingrad, Bastonge or Ypres

any many of them were made by master craftsmen to such fine standards that they would be prohibitively expensive to make today. Alot of those rifle also never saw service, some of them also look as though they have rarely been shot. I have many mausers in mint condition, and can tell you that a contract latin american mauser or a swede is equal to anything made today in the same configuration. feeding a rifle 60-80 year old ammunition is also not going to get you the best results, so lets not **** on all milsurp, if they were not capable of shooting accurately past a couple hundred yards, then I kind of doubt every single military would have sites ranging to 400 yards+ or in some cases 1500+.

Again, if your only shooting to 50 yards and your sight is set to 100 or 200 meters then of course its not going to shoot point of aim. It was not until Korea that the US army actual conducted a study to find out what the most common combat distances where. Prior to Korea, the legendary marksmanship of Sgt. York and the marines still prompted an attitude of precision fire, and if their rifles were not up to the task then you would think we would have heard about it...from the millions of vets. Strange how bitchy Vietnam vets can be about the M16, but I don't hear many vets crying about their crappy mauser or garand.

Bishop.357
August 2, 2009, 08:32 AM
I own 4 mausers and two mosin nagants and apart from a little tinkerin' that I've done they are some of the most accurate (usein' iron sights only) rifles I've ever fired. Alot of it has to do with how well preserved the weapon is and what ammo you are usein'.

JTW Jr.
August 2, 2009, 01:23 PM
to those who dont " get " milsurps , that's fine , leave them and the ammo for the rest of us , no sense complaining about what you don't get.

I don't get why someone will spend $800+ in upgrades to a 10/22 , but if they want to that is their business , their cash , but it aint for me to complain about...

As for me , you can find me , in the dirt , hammering the 400 yard steel with a Mauser or Enfield..... recoil pad not needed :)

MCgunner
August 2, 2009, 02:30 PM
I like that ol' Hakim. It's weird. Your average Joe can't even figure out the action, let alone shoot it. LOL The thing is impressive, about 20 feet long, 25 with the bayonet on it. It weighs about what my Honda goldwing weighs. It's got an effective muzzle brake on it to boot, so recoil with 8x57 mauser is nil. It has a 10 round box mag. You can dump that mag fast as you can pull the trigger. Let me tell ya, that wakes the shooting line up! LOL They all come over wanting to know "What the hell IS that thing?" LOL It was worth the 80 bucks just for that.

Actually, the thing reminds me a little of a BAR, semi auto of course. One amazing thing, that old gun is a shooter! It's more accurate than your average SKS by a ways, ain't sayin' much, but I can shoot 2" at 100 yards with it using the irons and reloads. 8x57 milsurp ammo varies wildly and you need to avoid the Turkish stuff with it or turn down the gas valve if you use it.

As to history, the Hakim came from Israeli arsenals, 67 war pick ups, fired once, dropped in the sand. LOL

jimmyraythomason
August 2, 2009, 02:44 PM
Years ago a Birmingham gun shop had crates of Hakims for $79 each, IIRC. I didn't like the looks of them even though I wanted a 8x57 semi-auto. I didn't buy one and am still kicking myself.

Howaido
August 2, 2009, 04:52 PM
The only milsurp I have is an M44. The factor that swayed me most was that they are still making the 7.62x54R ammo for sniper rifles and MGs that are used all over the world, as opposed to 8mm mauser, etc. No worries re. ammo shortages.

That said, there is no way I would want to have to defend myself with any bolt action gun in this day and age.

Why was the pump shotgun so feared in the trenches? Because that was in the day of the bolt action rifle. Compare the firing rate and ergos (for most) of a pump shotgun to a bolt action rifle and the winner in a CQB situation is clear.

Anyhow, this is the age of the semi-auto and full-auto. I bought my milsurp because I liked it, not because I ever envisioned using it any serious situation.

Had that been a consideration, I wouldn't have purchased ANY bolt action rifle, including a mauser or enfield or remington or ruger.

Like I have said before, the only way I would grab the mosin in a SD situation would be if I was attacked going to or from the range and it was the only gun I had.

Flip side, it is a powerful rifle that is reliable, robust and accurate to 100 yards that I can afford to shoot. Got it for 120 bucks.

jimmyraythomason
August 2, 2009, 05:00 PM
FWIW, there are many mil-surps that are semi-auto. These are excellent SD and HD choices.

Bob58
August 2, 2009, 05:18 PM
They're history and were well suited to their intended purpose. Every design has its limitations and someone with a little design and manufacturing knowledge can understand that. You shouldn't try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear and then blame it on someone else. I have very few milsurps, appreciate them but am tending toward the older FN-based Husqvarnas for their quality. You can make a fine hunting rfile starting with a quality military mauser action.

skidooman603
August 2, 2009, 05:52 PM
Love all the mil surps. Knew that kid was gonna get flamed. :D Anyone sell me some 303 brass?

Hammerhead6814
August 2, 2009, 09:23 PM
I can't say the same about the OP, but I love the smell of cosmoline in the morning :D .

If you want to turn a mil-surp into a tack-driving machine, be prepared to sink some money into them. It has been done (http://www.youtube.com/user/mag30th). If you want cheap ammo, your restricted to a Mosin-Nagant usually because .303 British and 7.92x57 Mauser are hard to find, being that each has been out of use for decades. If your shooting a Mauser your probably reloading for it, and Lee-Enfields do have some manufacturers cranking out rounds, but not many.

I remember hating my first mil-surp Mosin-Nagant. I thought it was a piece of crap. Then I realized that so is my grand-dads 1939 Ford. But like the Ford, the Mosin-Nagant was over (then) sixty years old! Now it's been seventy years since they made 91/30's. If I want a tack-driver Mosin-Nagant, I'd better be prepared to sink cash into it. Instead I rebuilt a bubba'd Lee-Enfield No. 1 Mk III*. Rebuilt being used loosely (new wood and front sight, welded up the rear sight), it will only do 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards. But you know what? If I was going to punch .5 inch holes at 100 yards I'd have spent the extra money and bought a heavy-barreled Remington 700 in .308. But who wants to spend nearly a thousand dollars to shoot targets at the range?

MCgunner
August 2, 2009, 10:13 PM
If you want cheap ammo, your restricted to a Mosin-Nagant usually because .303 British and 7.92x57 Mauser are hard to find, being that each has been out of use for decades.

I don't know, I don't find 7.62x39 is out of production, either. The lowly SKS has its useful purposes and some folks like those fugly AKs.

Antihero
August 2, 2009, 10:30 PM
2. For the money, they are inaccurate

Huh?!? So when you buy a rifle for somewhere between $80 and $150 you feel you arent getting enough bang for your buck? Are you spoiled by the $50 sub MOA 700 floating around everywhere?

Ive got 4 milsurps a 91/30, a wonderful IAC Enfield no4mk1, a beat to hell Ishy and a no4mk1/2 that someone bubba-ed that someday im gonna return it back to the way it was. The IAC and 91/30 are very very accurate,and the others are ok, but honestly its foolhardy to ask a gun that was more than likely used to pound nails and stir stew 60+ years ago to shoot sub-moa.

The Deer Hunter
August 3, 2009, 12:11 AM
2 Mausers
2 Enfields
2 AK's
2 SKS's
1 Mosin 1938
1 Swiss K31


But I won't buy another one to see, I'm too poor a college student to do that at this time.

If money is such a concern, what are/were you doing with 25 rifles?

ChronoCube
August 3, 2009, 01:41 AM
BTW many of your beloved historic pieces have a history consisting of little more than being made by forced-slave labor and then spending 60yrds forgotten in a warehouse. Not every milsurp saw action in Stalingrad, Bastonge or Ypres

If it's a Russian M91/30 from 1942 or earlier, it most likely DID see some action, given how desperately they needed weapons. 2 men to 1 rifle, anyone?

.38 Special
August 3, 2009, 09:21 PM
My experience has been that milsurp owners/collectors are usually "financially challenged" and, in their heart-of-hearts, would really rather have a Weatherby. (Or whatever.) That explains not only the extravagant lies (MOA with irons and surplus ammo, from a 100 year old rifle made by peasants) but also the misplaced populism -- "You rich boys with your fancy factory rifles just don't understand!"

As for the OP, I absolutely understand. If I could go back in time, I would have passed on 90% of the guns I bought, and put that money toward a very few, very high quality pieces.

jimmyraythomason
August 3, 2009, 09:24 PM
Your experience seems to be lacking,.38 Special. If it weren't for the title of this thread,I would consider that to be trolling.

Deckard
August 3, 2009, 09:26 PM
I generally live by the rule: not all milsurps are good rifles, but some good rifles are milsurps.

jd46561
August 3, 2009, 09:50 PM
38 special...your WAY off base.

R.W.Dale
August 3, 2009, 09:52 PM
My experience has been that milsurp owners/collectors are usually "financially challenged" and, in their heart-of-hearts, would really rather have a Weatherby. (Or whatever.) That explains not only the extravagant lies (MOA with irons and surplus ammo, from a 100 year old rifle made by peasants) but also the misplaced populism -- "You rich boys with your fancy factory rifles just don't understand!"

As for the OP, I absolutely understand. If I could go back in time, I would have passed on 90% of the guns I bought, and put that money toward a very few, very high quality pieces.
A big plus one

hell at one point this described me perfectlly but at least I'm man enough to admit as much.

jimmyraythomason
August 3, 2009, 10:24 PM
When did this thread degenerate into attacks on mil-surp collectors? perhaps we should open a "what I dislike about gunsnobs" thread?

MCgunner
August 3, 2009, 10:39 PM
Heck, I've always been a cheap sob, but some factory rifles are cheaper than most milsurps now days. I don't feel the low budget hunter is the main market for milsurps anymore. Didn't used to be that way, but milsurps are in shorter supply and the demand has gone up. I'll leave mosins out of it, but have you seen the price on a K98 lately? A Savage 110 is cheaper, not better built, but cheaper and accurate, and will do the job if hunting is the job, more cheaply because it's already set up for optics and will require no gunsmithing. But, some folks like collecting milsurps. I kinda like the few I have and like to shoot 'em. They are an extravagance, actually, didn't really buy 'em for hunting or any real use, though one of the SKSs has killed a deer and is one heck of a handy truck gun. Hell, I've dumped 1.5 times the price of that SKS in a stock and do dads for a scope and such. If I was being cheap, I'd have kept it like I bought it. But, I just wanted to dude it up a bit. The camo stock is cool and gives me a better length of pull. It was set up for a five foot NVA regular, had the length of pull of a Daisy Red Rider. The ambi safety is necessary as I shoot left handed. The 5 round mag lets me carry the gun more comfortably in the field. I did take the scope and mount off and I'm back to using it as a truck gun. It really is better in that roll. I have several commercial hunting rifles to hunt with.

I think ol' .38 needs to loosen up and join the fun, frankly. :D It's just whatever makes you happy.

.38 Special
August 4, 2009, 12:44 AM
Your experience seems to be lacking,.38 Special. If it weren't for the title of this thread,I would consider that to be trolling.

38 special...your WAY off base.

Oops, I did forget one other characteristic of the milsurp fan: the kneejerk defensiveness any time someone points out that cheap, abused, worn out old military rifles are cheap, abused, worn out old military rifles. Now, I'm totally cool with folks who are into cheap, abused, worn out old military rifles, but it doesn't take a whole lot of nonsense about "MOA" and "better made than current commercial rifles" before folks are going to start poking fun. Seriously: go back to the start of the thread and read with an open mind, if you can. The OP makes the pretty innocuous point that he kind of wishes he hadn't spent a bunch of money on a bunch of cheap military rifles, and wishes he had instead saved his money for a few very high quality pieces. And the milsurp fans jumped on him as though he'd admitted a crush on Dianne Feinstein. This is not the usual "Each to his own" kind of deal; this is call-a-psychologist level insecurity.

I think ol' .38 needs to loosen up and join the fun, frankly.

Ol' .38 is quite interested in joining the fun via a 100 year old Mauser. This particular Mauser has been somewhat modified by an obscure firm named Rigby, but its military roots are clear. It is not, unfortunately, available for the usual $150. Darn. :neener:

jimmyraythomason
August 4, 2009, 01:08 AM
.38 Special ,I sold or traded my Weatherbys, Remington 700s and Winchester Featherweight , I was unimpressed with them (although my Remington Model 7 in 7mm-08 was a cut above) I did a comparison of accuracy (not intentionally,I was just sighting them in)between a Remmy 700 BDL-DM in 7mm-08 and my Gew98 made in 1899 8x57mm. The Mauser beat the Remmy which promptly was traded for a S&W 686.Quality mil-surp collecting is much more expensive,as a rule,accessories included than buying a few high end hunting rifles.

CZguy
August 4, 2009, 01:27 AM
There's room in my safe for both nice hunting rifles, and a couple of military rifles. Here's a couple of them.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/03A3II.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/03A3IV.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/M1.jpg

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/M1I.jpg

fatelk
August 4, 2009, 02:39 AM
What is it with these fights lately? Hot weather, economy, everyone on edge and ready to argue their opinion? There's a similar thread about the Mini14, with one individual in particular apparantly harboring negative opinions towards anyone who might prefer wood-and-steel over plastic-and-aluminum.:eek:

Just because someone has a different interest than you doesn't make them stupid, compensating for something, or jealous that you can afford expensive guns and they can't.:)

I have several very nice hunting rifles that I never shoot because I haven't hunted in years. I've shot (and could afford) high-tech decked out ARs, but they just don't do anything for me. If those kind of guns are your thing, enjoy.

I like the old surplus rifles because they're old and interesting. My interest, my opinion. Some folks collect stamps. Some folks restore old cars. Some folks spend time posting on forums, arrogantly insisting that their perspective is the only one that counts.:neener:

jd46561
August 4, 2009, 08:26 AM
When we start arguing amongst ourselves ...its over ...they win.:banghead:

Storm
August 4, 2009, 10:29 AM
My milsurps, numerous Mausers, Enfields, Mosin, Arisaka, Steyrs, go right along with my modern AR's, FN, MSAR, HK's, AK's. I own both for different reasons and money isn't one of the prime reasons for either. And for whoever thinks that milsurps are an economical option, it's very easy to put a good amount of money in restoring a milsurp, and shooting them can be more expensive in the long run. Spend a little time sending some 8x56r or 7.62x45 down range and you see the bucks adding up really quickly.

Yeah, for some on both sides of the coin it's about the money, and for some it's always about the money. But, trying to pin the almighty buck on this one and making it a "have and have not" thing is just plain silly and way off base. I'm so tired of that kind of thing as it invades every aspect of our lives. Haves and have nots....blah, blah, blah. It's so Obama.

telomerase
August 4, 2009, 10:51 AM
CZguy, those are some really beautiful cheap, abused, inaccurate, obsolete worn out old military rifles!

minutemen1776
August 4, 2009, 11:12 AM
Ol' .38 is quite interested in joining the fun via a 100 year old Mauser. This particular Mauser has been somewhat modified by an obscure firm named Rigby, but its military roots are clear. It is not, unfortunately, available for the usual $150. Darn.

.38 Special, are you saying you actually have an old military Mauser, albeit not a cheap one? If so, you've taken me halfway to the point I want to make. As I said earlier in the thread, the price point of milsurps do make them attractive to cheapskates and the financially challenged. However, that's just one side of the coin. For those who cross over into collecting milsurps, the price tag goes up considerably.

Like a lot of milsurp guys, I was introduced to them through a cheap Mosin Nagant and a Russian-capture Kar98k Mauser. Since then, though, I've focused on WW2 rifles and have tried to find representative pieces from several different nations that fought in the war. I've found that, even though whatever is on today's surplus market (and therefore relatively plentiful) is cheap enough, things that were imported decades ago or hardly at all can be quite expensive. Also, finding a specimen that is neither abused nor worn out (to use your words) also causes the price tag to escalate. Yet, I try to buy the best milsurps I can locate, precisely because I do not want low quality milsurps.

I guess that's my main point. Though a lot of milsurps are junk, worn-out, abused, Bubba'd, etc., those are not what I want. Some milsurps, if you look for them, are authentic, are in good condition, function fine, and are good representations of a period of history. And despite the fact that these milsurps cost the most, they are the ones I want because they are quality pieces.

jimmyraythomason
August 4, 2009, 11:51 AM
Some of the most sought after mil-surps aren't even military surplus. They are soldier bring backs(with the appropriate documentation). Military,yes,surplus,no. If you find a Gew.98 from the first world war with all matching numbers you indeed have a prize. Or a k98k with all proofs and waffenamps intact or an Arisaka without defacement. There are SO many things that determine the value of an old war dog and then there are the accessories. A good original K98 sling goes for over $100. A cheap hobby it ain't.

Storm
August 4, 2009, 12:02 PM
A cheap hobby it ain't.

Ament to that! Just alike any aspect of the shooting sport/hobby there are all different levels of involvement and costs associated with that level.

Expertowgunner
August 4, 2009, 12:36 PM
I used to be a Mil-surp hater and never understood why people liked those ugly nagants and enfields. Well, its been 4 years since my first nagant and i understand now why people like them. For me its the history, the character, and the beauty of something thats rugged and practical. These weapons were wielded by many people during the last couple great wars and many people fought and died with them. I buy to honor those who sacrificed so much for their ideals and their countries. My police tactical 308. remmy has its place just like my k98 and my nagant. Bought for different reasons but loved all the same

candr44
August 4, 2009, 06:35 PM
Wow! This thread is still going.

Who cares what other people like in guns---I only concern myself with what I like.

A lot of this thread smells like gun snobbery. Who else but a gun snob would put down someone elses choice and interest in guns.

DammitBoy
August 4, 2009, 09:03 PM
I can't stop buying milsurps or new production rifles and pistols. I want them all.

stevekl
August 5, 2009, 12:21 AM
I actually don't like my K31. The beechwood stock looks bad, the ergonomics make my hand hurt, the straight pull system is no faster than my bolt-action Swedish Mauser, and it's hard to chamber my reloads without slamming the bolt home.

It was, however, only $109.

BunnyPuncher
August 5, 2009, 12:46 AM
stevekl: make sure your sizing die actually touches the shell holder at the bottom of the downstroke. That problem should go away.

.38 Special
August 5, 2009, 01:19 AM
.38 Special, are you saying you actually have an old military Mauser, albeit not a cheap one? If so, you've taken me halfway to the point I want to make. As I said earlier in the thread, the price point of milsurps do make them attractive to cheapskates and the financially challenged. However, that's just one side of the coin. For those who cross over into collecting milsurps, the price tag goes up considerably.

No, I don't have a military surplus Mauser. I would happily own one reworked a hundred years ago by one of the famous British companies, but they tend to run to five figures. Even a nice Springfield done up by Sedgely or similar will set you back at least a grand. By mentioning it, I'd intended to point out that the claims of milsurp superiority don't stand up to the fact that any reputable rifle maker of the last century charged many times the original milsurp price to turn one into a firearm that the sportsman/hunter/target shooter could make use of.

Like a lot of milsurp guys, I was introduced to them through a cheap Mosin Nagant and a Russian-capture Kar98k Mauser. Since then, though, I've focused on WW2 rifles and have tried to find representative pieces from several different nations that fought in the war. I've found that, even though whatever is on today's surplus market (and therefore relatively plentiful) is cheap enough, things that were imported decades ago or hardly at all can be quite expensive. Also, finding a specimen that is neither abused nor worn out (to use your words) also causes the price tag to escalate. Yet, I try to buy the best milsurps I can locate, precisely because I do not want low quality milsurps.

To be honest, I'm guilty of equating "milsurp" to the cheap Nagants, SKSs, etc. I'm actually pretty enthusiastic about better quality rifles like the Garand, Springfield, certain Mausers, etc. But those are usually not the rifles, in my experience, mentioned by the "My milsurp is MOA and I got rid of all my commercial rifles because they weren't as good" crowd.

I guess that's my main point. Though a lot of milsurps are junk, worn-out, abused, Bubba'd, etc., those are not what I want. Some milsurps, if you look for them, are authentic, are in good condition, function fine, and are good representations of a period of history. And despite the fact that these milsurps cost the most, they are the ones I want because they are quality pieces.

Fair enough. I hereby amend my posts to include only those folks who are buying $99 rifles from the rack at Big 5, and 80 year old "battle packs" of corrosive ammo to go with them, and then writing "attack" posts directed toward anyone who doesn't accept that these are MOA rifles and better made than any of the Remington/Winchester/Weatherby junk. :p

Ignition Override
August 5, 2009, 01:52 AM
Excellent topic.
Being the new guy at all of this, would like to "second" the views of NCsmitty and JTW ("fancy do dads, hickey ma doos...":D), among others.
My heros in WW2 etc had none of this fancy stuff, and could often hit an enemy with a rifle (even a carbine) at 100 yards, sometimes further, and stop them.

Other than my only milsurps being an inaccurate MN 44 and much better LE #4 and 5, though accuracy is not the point, a GI-vintage M-1 Garand would be really attractive.
Having taken that excellent private (and low-cost) tour of various skirmish areas back in May around Bastogne, Belgium, hearing the actual details and squatting in the 101st (E and F Companies) Airborne's fox holes, the Garand would be to honour our heros, but the ammo costs too much for plinking.:( The Russian Wolf/Bear/Monarch complex does not produce any 30-06.

ArmedBear:
If you or anybody else can bring any good LE #4 (even surplus .303) or a MN 44 with very nice bore, through/near Memphis in the future, please send me a pm with about six weeks notice, to work out the day off. Will try to work out a deal behind a McDonalds etc (as was done for my SKS: still hardly a scratch after 1,500 rds.).

jimmyraythomason
August 5, 2009, 09:06 AM
"I did a comparison of accuracy (not intentionally,I was just sighting them in)between a Remmy 700 BDL-DM in 7mm-08 and my Gew98 made in 1899 8x57mm. The Mauser beat the Remmy which promptly was traded for a S&W 686." I told this in post #111. 38 Special,this is an absolute FACT. The Remmy was brand new and the Gew 98 was over 100 years old at the time of the comparison. The Gew shot consistant 2'' 5shot groups while 3''-4'' groups was the BEST the 700 could do from a rest. I have never had 1'' MOA with a mil-surp but I have come close. As to mil-surps being superior in quality to new production guns,I can only say that in SOME cases that could be true but isn't the norm and I really don't remember anyone saying that. I know I didn't.

cornman
August 5, 2009, 11:12 AM
One could say classic cars are no good because they do not have dual zone A/C, MP3 ports, and power windows. But this would not make them junk.

jimmyraythomason
August 5, 2009, 11:15 AM
^^^all that stuff can be put on classic cars. They would not cease to be classics but a collector would have less interest in them. Now you've made me miss my old 1969 Mustang Mach 1 Cobra Jet and my 1968 Mercury Cougar,and my 1969 Dodge Coronet 500 w/383 hP .

jd46561
August 5, 2009, 11:51 AM
Id take my STG-58 over your Rigby anyday...:neener:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/MyFal004.jpg

jimmyraythomason
August 5, 2009, 12:49 PM
jd46561,so would I but then I build my own Mauser sporters. I wouldn't turn down a Rigby in .275 rigby either.

DHJenkins
August 5, 2009, 01:32 PM
You need to buy what's best suited to your use. Some people collect, other people shoot alot or use their weapons for hunting, competitions, etc...

Look at it this way - the weekend shadetree mechanic can probably get done what he needs to get done with this 73 piece socket set from sears, which costs $100:

http://s.sears.com/is/image/Sears/00934827000-1?hei=248&wid=248&op_sharpen=1&resMode=sharp&op_usm=0.9,0.5,0,0

On the other hand, a working professional mechanic will spend that $100 (actually, $92) on this single ratchet from snap-on:

http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/OBJECTS/35700/35648.JPG

If you want quality, buy quality. If you want quantity, buy quantity; just remember - you get what you pay for.

It sounds to me like the OP just made a lot of impulse purchases because the price was right, not because it's what he really wanted. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

Don't get me wrong, there are always exeptions; but they're called exceptions because they don't happen very often. I like all types of guns, from black powder to the latest whiz-bang; but I also know what to expect form those guns in terms of performance.

jd46561
August 5, 2009, 02:34 PM
Im just funnin, you all buy what you want.

jimmyraythomason
August 5, 2009, 02:51 PM
Nice mil-surp, jd46561.

mp5a3
August 5, 2009, 02:52 PM
No doubt, that thing looks MEAN !!!

gun addict
August 5, 2009, 02:57 PM
my firearm collection is composed of ALL MILSUPS. I can get 1 MOA at 100 yard with a 70 year old YC K98k mauser using 40s ammunition. MY Swiss K31, feeding GP11 ammo with a vintage Redfield scope attached to it can shoot 1 MOA all day long. If you're shooting 4 MOA at 50 yard with a K31 50cal then you obviously need practice.

oh, and i also bought 1500 rounds of 8x57 ammo last week for $135, keep your eyes open, milsup ammunitinos can still be had for cheap

Tamlin
August 5, 2009, 04:38 PM
I got a Swedish mauser carbine because (1) it was relatively cheap; and (2) I like old guns. It shoots great. Took it hunting once, but it only has iron sights. I refuse to drill and tap it for a scope. This rifle has introduced me to the 6.5x55 caliber, and so when I am ready to get a serious scoped hunting rifle, I will likely get a nice new rifle in this caliber. Will always keep the Swede, though.

gun addict
August 5, 2009, 06:23 PM
seems to me like alot of people on here thinks accuracy in terms of "can i put a huge scope on it?". And you know what? If this man here can engage a small steel plate at 1000 yards with a K31 OPEN SIGHT there's absolutely no reason you should be shooting 4 groups at 50 yards.

oh and here's a "junky inaccurate slave labor made crappy ol mauser" shooting at 900 yards, yeah i rest my case http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8B4Me5HXNo&feature=related

jd46561
August 5, 2009, 06:23 PM
Thanks.

Swede's are nice, I wont part with mine either.

shephard19
August 5, 2009, 07:32 PM
My experience has been that milsurp owners/collectors are usually "financially challenged" and, in their heart-of-hearts, would really rather have a Weatherby. (Or whatever.) That explains not only the extravagant lies (MOA with irons and surplus ammo, from a 100 year old rifle made by peasants) but also the misplaced populism -- "You rich boys with your fancy factory rifles just don't understand!"

As for the OP, I absolutely understand. If I could go back in time, I would have passed on 90% of the guns I bought, and put that money toward a very few, very high quality pieces.
That has to be one of the snobbiest posts I have ever read, so what if mil surplus guys have less money, at least they have class in more ways than one.

.38 Special
August 5, 2009, 07:38 PM
And we're right back to antique milsurp rifles made in third world countries shooting MOA with antique milsurp ammo -- also made in third world countries -- while Remington 700s are only capable of 4 MOA.

Only on the internet, folks!

Deckard
August 5, 2009, 07:38 PM
I got a Swedish mauser carbine because (1) it was relatively cheap; and (2) I like old guns. I've been keeping my eyes out for one of those, but they're pretty scarce nowadays. You can find the full length ones pretty easily still.

.38 Special
August 5, 2009, 07:43 PM
That has to be one of the snobbiest posts I have ever read, so what if mil surplus guys have less money, at least they have class in more ways than one.

Don't jerk that knee too hard, mate, you night hurt someone.

Seems to me a lot of folks are reading between the lines and coming up with whatever they wanted to. FWIW, I spent many years renting a room in a bad neighborhood, one step away from living on the street. Those were times I couldn't even afford to shoot the few guns I had, let alone consider buying new ones -- even new old ones. So I'm not attacking people for not being rich.

I am attacking people for posting outrageous lies on the internet about cheap, poorly made guns and ammo, and for claiming that those same guns are better than anything coming out of today's factories, and most especially for going after the OP for pointing out that he wishes he'd spent his money on a few high quality guns instead of a garage full of low quality ones.

You all can buy and shoot whatever you like. It's none of my business, and I wish you the best. But keep posting nonsense, and folks like me will keep making fun of it.

HTH!

MCgunner
August 5, 2009, 07:49 PM
"I did a comparison of accuracy (not intentionally,I was just sighting them in)between a Remmy 700 BDL-DM in 7mm-08 and my Gew98 made in 1899 8x57mm. The Mauser beat the Remmy which promptly was traded for a S&W 686." I told this in post #111. 38 Special,this is an absolute FACT. The Remmy was brand new and the Gew 98 was over 100 years old at the time of the comparison. The Gew shot consistant 2'' 5shot groups while 3''-4'' groups was the BEST the 700 could do from a rest. I have never had 1'' MOA with a mil-surp but I have come close. As to mil-surps being superior in quality to new production guns,I can only say that in SOME cases that could be true but isn't the norm and I really don't remember anyone saying that. I know I didn't.

One can make just about any off the shelf factory sporting rifle shoot 1 MOA with just a little judicious handloading. Sometimes you'll run in to the need for free floating or bedding a rifle, but usually just right out of the crate, the gun will shoot 1 MOA or better. I have not found this to be the case with your average milsurp which has barrel bands and fore stocks and hand guards pressing upon the barrels every which way interfering with the natural barrel vibration. Most GOOD milsurps like the K98s will put their first three pretty tight, though. Some of the other mausers are known for their better accuracy like the Swedes and the Finnish Mosins have a rep. Hard to take advantage of any accuracy you might have, though, unless you "bubba" the gun, drill and tap and turn the bolt down, for a scope. K98s ain't cheap anymore and the extra gunsmithing can easily add a hundred bucks anymore.

I'll stick with my 3/4 MOA Remingtons and my 1 MOA Savage for hunting. The milsurps are cool, but not real practical. I just enjoy putting rounds down range with 'em. And as for "poorly made milsurps", yeah, I can think of some, Arisakas and Carcanos and such. But, some are BEAUTIFULLY machined and fitted in the old world tradition. I have an 88 commission rifle. Now, I know it's not super desirable or modern. It was converted in the 40s to the S round for home guard use. It shoots as fine as a K98 out of the box. Thing is, though, if you look at the works on this thing, it is beautiful. The machining quality and smoothness of the bolt are second to none. The bolt rides like it's on ball bearings. Open it and just tilt the gun slowly to the rear. At about a 20 degree tilt, the bolt will start sliding open. At 30 degrees it'll slide fully rearward. My Savage 110 feels like it rides on sandpaper and has to be near vertical before the bolt will slide open of its own weight. I sometimes just get that old commission rifle out just to admire the action, the quality of the fitting and workmanship. Just having this gun to admire, let alone shoot and have the privilege of ownership of such a well made firearm, is worth the $27.50 I gave for it in 1976. :D

.38 Special
August 5, 2009, 07:50 PM
One could say classic cars are no good because they do not have dual zone A/C, MP3 ports, and power windows. But this would not make them junk.

Actually, I'm saying that going down to the used car lot and buying an old Yugo is not the same as buying an AC Cobra. And I'm also saying that buying the old Yugo and then crowing about how much faster, more reliable, and better made it is compared to today's factory models from Ford, Honda, etc. is going to get you laughed at.

And, again, I'm saying that collecting old Yugos might be a fine and affordable hobby, and if that turns your knob, then have fun. But if a Yugo collector turns up on the classic car website bemoaning the fact that he spent an AC Cobra's worth of money but ended up with a field full of old Yugos, I'd suggest that throwing a bunch of angry and whiny posts at him is probably not going to accomplish much.

gun addict
August 5, 2009, 07:55 PM
so .38 special, you're saying Finnland, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, USA are all 3rd world country that have no idea what they're doing when making their guns? That all their stuff are low quality and only the stuff you buy from Wallmart's shelf are "high quality products"?

MCgunner
August 5, 2009, 08:13 PM
Actually, I'm saying that going down to the used car lot and buying an old Yugo is not the same as buying an AC Cobra. And I'm also saying that buying the old Yugo and then crowing about how much faster, more reliable, and better made it is compared to today's factory models from Ford, Honda, etc. is going to get you laughed at.

Sure, there's old Yugos....*cough-carcano-cough*, but then there's the gull winged 50s Mercedes, too, ya know, or the old Porches or perhaps (I'm a biker, not into cars) a 1957 500cc GP V8 Moto Guzzi road racer or an old Norton Manx or a BSA GoldStar. They're not as fast as some modern equivalents like the Ducati Desmosedici MotoGP bike or an RC211V, but hey, they sure have class! And, think of the history! And, heck, you can still ride to the dairy queen on a K model Harley flat head, ya know. :D I don't think anyone will laugh at a nicely restored flat head or GoldStar. You might have to worry about old biker drool on the paint. It probably wouldn't impress some 20 year old punk, but who cares?

bearmgc
August 5, 2009, 08:19 PM
I have a sporterized Swede carbine 6.5x55. Its a great shooter. Has a 4x Burris on it. I traded a cheapo, at the time, Rom AK for it. It will prolly not increase in value, but its the perfect antelope rifle for me. I bought tons of Privi partisan when it went on sale, so ammo ready. Milsurps are utilitarian rifles, and reflect history. Most were meant to shoot minute of body, and some do have great hunting applications, usually with modifications needed. For precision shooting, I think a commercial rifle would be better.

jimmyraythomason
August 5, 2009, 08:21 PM
First off that Remington 700 doing only 3''-4'' groups was mine so I know for fact that is all it would do. I know with the proper tinkering it probably would do much better. I had a Remminton Model 700 ADL that was 1 MOA and a Medol 7 as well. It wasn't hard for the Gew98 with shortened barrel and scope to beat it. Be wary about calling someone a liar unless you can prove otherwise. FWIW my MOST accurate rifle is a cheap Steven's Model 200 in .223rem.

MCgunner
August 5, 2009, 08:25 PM
Did I say "liar"? All I was saying is that your average Remington 700 is going to outshoot your average milsurp and I bet I coulda made YOUR gun shoot 1 MOA just by handloading. If not, floating the barrel and/or perhaps bedding the action does the trick 99 percent of the time. I have known guns from major makers that were just turds, though. It happens.

I worked with my Savage 110 using all sorts of load until I ended up with a couple of bullets it likes and its favorite powder, RL22. It took 6 months of loading this and that and going to the range and shooting groups and chronographing loads. Some bullets were 4-6 MOA in that thing. It's kinda picky about the loads it likes. I finally floated the barrel and that made it quite consistent.

.38 Special
August 5, 2009, 08:29 PM
"Gun Addict", you need to read the whole thread before jumping in with both feet.

MCgunner, nothing would suit me like one of the Honda GP bikes of the 60s. I would never claim, though, that they are better than today's bikes at, well, anything. Modern motorcycles are better in every way, at least in practical, measurable terms.

Moreover, relatively few milsurp collectors are buying the equivalent of that old Honda. In point of fact, most of them aren't even buying the equivalent of a nice 70s CB750. The majority, in my experience, are buying clapped-out 250cc Suzuki cruisers from the early 80s, and some of those fellows are even posting on this thread claiming that they got rid of their CBR900RR because their Suzuki cruiser is so much better and that anyone who would rather have the RR must be a motorcycle snob.

None of which has anything to do with the knowledgeable and picky collector who is searching out the very best examples of a particular model to satisfy his own desires.

bearmgc
August 5, 2009, 08:30 PM
Jimmyray,I believe you. A young fellow I took hunting 2 years ago had a Stevens 200 in .270. He was spot on , killing a nice doe at 170yds, with a Bushnell Trophey scope. It got the job done. I've seen several K98s shoot pretty amazingly accurate groups. My Swede does an easy 1in groups or less. I had an older cheapie Weatherby Vanguard .223 doing .5in groups easy at 100yds. point being, you can't always tell a book by its cover. More expensive rifles don't always add up in producing smaller shot groups.

Saiga39
August 5, 2009, 08:32 PM
I have two Yugo Mauser 24/47's. I mounted a scout scope setup to one. Shoots real nice.
8mm tins are still available.

I'm looking forward to taking that deer hunting in the fall.

.38 Special
August 5, 2009, 08:32 PM
And, heck, you can still ride to the dairy queen on a K model Harley flat head, ya know.

Well, I'd say it's 50/50 at best. :neener:

Joe Demko
August 5, 2009, 08:41 PM
Carcanos, ftr, are not necessarily poorly made nor are they lacking in accuracy. The pre-war specimens are, in fact, very nicely made and are good shooters. Those that had gain-twist rifling suffer if Bubba has taken a hacksaw to the barrel. Carcs and Arisakas both can be pretty awful if you pick one from later on in the war. Same with Mausers. For that matter, the US and UK were winning and we pumped out some uglyass stuff late in the game.

jimmyraythomason
August 5, 2009, 08:51 PM
I wasn't talking about you Mcgunner. This is what .38 special said;"I am attacking people for posting outrageous lies on the internet about cheap, poorly made guns and ammo"and "while Remington 700s are only capable of 4 MOA. only on the internet, folks!" Implying that it could not possibly happen on the range.

MTS Cop
August 5, 2009, 08:57 PM
My interest in mil-surp is purely historical. I have a Garand, M1 Carbine and a P-38, all WW2 vintage (actually the Garand is from 1940). The Garand and Carbine are excellent weapons and can probably shoot better than me. And I picked up enough ammo while it was cheap that I can still shoot them for awhile. The P-38 on the other hand is a jam-o-matic. It's not particularly well finished either and the DA trigger is horendous. If it were a new gun I'd never buy another Walther again. But I bought and like it because it's my little piece of the Reich. When I want to tack drive fist sized groups all day I'll pick up my 226, when I want to time travel I'll pick up the P-38 (and do malfuntion drills all day). If you buy a mil-surp for reasons more than history you're probably making a mistake.

MCgunner
August 5, 2009, 08:59 PM
Well, .38, I might buy another RD400 some day. I loved those old 2 strokes. I'd like to have one if, for nothing else, to PO the EPA. :D I had a couple of TZ250s back in the day, too. I could have kept and restored 'em, but when you're 20 something trying to win races, you don't think of stuff like that.

The majority, in my experience, are buying clapped-out 250cc Suzuki cruisers from the early 80s,

I think the "majority" of milsurp buyers now days are picking up Mosins. Why? Because of the price and what you get for the money. I wouldn't equate a nice mosin to a 250 Suzuki cruiser, maybe an old X6 Hustler. I'd like to have an old X6 in restored condition. I've seen some restored Mosins that are really nice shooters for a hundred bucks. They'll never match up in warfare with an AK or M4 and they'll never beat out a nice Weatherby Mk 5, but for a hundred bucks, why not? If some folks think their Mosin is better than a Mk 5, they're sorta delusional, but that don't mean the Mosin can't work for 'em. I really don't see the Mosin vs commercial rifle as the Honda Rebel vs RC211V, IOW. LOL

BTW, the X6 was the first 250cc motorcycle to legitimately, out of the box, break 100 mph. I don't think the EX250 can do that today and it's about the fastest 250 out there short of a RS250 or TZ250 or RS Aprilia full blown factory racers. That wouldn't be the case, though, if the EPA hadn't killed the 2 stroke in this country, but, you get the point. Some old stuff can shine even today. That's even more so for firearms which don't evolve as fast as the internal cumbustion engine has in the last 50 years. After all, your basic Weatherby bolt action, well, it's not far from the very FIRST Mauser 98 in design. The Lebel, the 88 commission rifle, and the Mosin were more Manlicher designs than 98 Mauser. But, you can add your extra locking lugs, your 60 degree bolts, your tang safeties, and what do you have in a modern bolt gun, but a Mauser action? Lots of 'em don't have controlled round feed, either, if that's important to ya. Paul Mauser's guns all had controlled round feed and many still think that is desirable.

MCgunner
August 5, 2009, 09:00 PM
I wasn't talking about you Mcgunner. This is what .38 special said;"I am attacking people for posting outrageous lies on the internet about cheap, poorly made guns and ammo"and "while Remington 700s are only capable of 4 MOA. only on the internet, folks!" Implying that it could not possibly happen on the range.

Oh, sorry, my bad.

If you buy a mil-surp for reasons more than history you're probably making a mistake.

I think cheap plinking (SKS) is a good reason. I mean, my GAWD, SOMEbody has to buy up all those surplus SKSs and they don't have a whole lot of history, not like a K98 or something, although I have a surplus Norinco that looked as if it might have seen service in Vietnam when I got it, LOL. 75 bucks, though, and it shoots great and cleaned up nice.

N3810F
August 5, 2009, 09:17 PM
Whats not to love about my K31. Guns can be fun, right?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2650/3753362703_81d7852d71.jpg

Cosmoline
August 5, 2009, 09:47 PM
And we're right back to antique milsurp rifles made in third world countries shooting MOA with antique milsurp ammo -- also made in third world countries -- while Remington 700s are only capable of 4 MOA.

Well those poor impoverished SWISS BANKERS made some really, really, REALLY good rifles boyo. REALLY good.

It's not my fault if modern crudchesters feel like third rate toys made from plywood and plastic after experiencing real long arms.

.38 Special
August 5, 2009, 09:49 PM
Say, Cosmo, is this going to be one of those deals where you follow me around from thread to thread to pick fights, reading for comprehension be damned? :neener:

Cosmoline
August 5, 2009, 09:49 PM
Absolutely!

would really rather have a Weatherby

Maybe a vintage Mannlicher-Schoenauer, but a Weatherby? I think not.

Actually, truth be told one of the reasons I've owned and loved so many surplus rifles is the challenge they present. They're not particularly easy. You have to adjust your shooting style and learn a bit of history to understand why they were made the way they were made. You have to study them to understand what loads will work best. I've even had custom bullets made for them to recreate the loads of the 1890's. If I just wanted something to put holes in deer or a target I'd be happy with a modern scoped thing. But because I am the way I am, such rifles don't do anything for me.

Now that I've discovered flintlocks and real black powder, though, I may not be going back to smokeless at all.

rocky branch
August 5, 2009, 10:02 PM
I spent 4 years with a combat MOS and did two tours in the bush in VN.

I never felt too bad trusting my life to a crappy military weapon. Including the M2 and M16.
I managed to keep my scalp.

MCgunner
August 5, 2009, 10:28 PM
Now that I've discovered flintlocks and real black powder, though, I may not be going back to smokeless at all.

Geez, man, why mess with modern technology? I'm into archery now and can't wait till bow season. I do have a recurve, but have a compound now. I realize Geronimo never had wheels on his bow, but it's still more "primitive" than my Hawken. :D

jimmyraythomason
August 5, 2009, 10:36 PM
To me a primitive weapon is a spear sharpened and hardened in a fire and thrown by an atlatl.

MCgunner
August 5, 2009, 10:40 PM
I thought about atlatls, but realized, there aren't too many mammoths left in Texas. :D

gun addict
August 5, 2009, 10:41 PM
i agree of course that an average Remington 700 or Savage 110 can do better groupings than most Milsups, but it's snoobish attidute like .38 special that ticks me off. No, i don't buy $600 persian Mausers because i need a cheap gun, i buy them for their quality, craftsmenship and history. Ever seen a Swedish Mauser .38 special? Have you seen the machining and blueing and craftsmenship that went into them?

jimmyraythomason
August 5, 2009, 10:41 PM
Good point,MCgunner. Perhaps I should give this a little more thought.

Gelgoog
August 5, 2009, 11:42 PM
now why did all the elmer fudds have to come in here and ruin a good thing.

MCgunner
August 5, 2009, 11:45 PM
Must be cause we ain't mall ninjas or wannabe snipers?

jimmyraythomason
August 5, 2009, 11:50 PM
Fudds?? You know it's over when the name calling starts.

CZguy
August 5, 2009, 11:52 PM
I managed to keep my scalp.

Me too...........but now my scalp is of less value. :D

leadcounsel
August 5, 2009, 11:54 PM
Well what did you think you were getting with WWII guns?

You are probably too young to appreciate the history behind each gun. The story each gun could tell...

That's fine, when I was 25 I also had little appreciation for history. But that 's okay!

BTW, these all appreciated a lot in value...

gun addict
August 5, 2009, 11:57 PM
yup, those "junky inaccurate" military surplus's value/price jumped wwayyyyy up during the last 10 years, and did those "awesome super duper" Remington 700 or Savage 110 gain value over the years? Didn't think so

SpeedAKL
August 6, 2009, 12:23 AM
Knew this one would be getting interesting as soon as I saw the title...


I used to have a problem of confusing opinion with fact; i.e. that my personal tastes meant that what I liked was objectively superior to someone else's preferences rather than being just that, preferences. Too many of us gun guys seem to fall into that trap - it creates useless arguments that don't get anywhere. I personally like milsurp guns because they're fun to shoot. I don't personally get into things like blackpowder, pre-WW1 guns, etc (yet), but I can understand why people like them. Nor would I personally pay $100,000 for a double rifle or fine shotgun, but I can see the value in them. Guns are fun; we all like certain stuff, lets live and let live:)

ok, end the smell-the-roses peace-and-love rant, I'm too tired / not thinking straight

R.W.Dale
August 6, 2009, 12:42 AM
Fellas fellas! There's a way to settle this once and for all.


Shoot your milsurps and sporting rifles that qualify in my match at the top of rifle country. At the end of the match well see what's what where the rubber meets the road, or rather the bullet meets the dinnerware

Gelgoog
August 6, 2009, 01:34 AM
Must be cause we ain't mall ninjas or wannabe snipers?

nope your just fudds who think they need a 10x scope on a modern rifle to get better then 4" groupings at 50 yards. Apparently getting good accuracy out of finely milled rifle and emulating the old marksmenship of people like

Alvin York

http://www.gun-world.net/usa/handgun/m1911s/york.jpg

or the US marine corp is being a mall ninja/wanna be sniper.

Saiga39
August 7, 2009, 12:13 AM
Here's my Yugo 24\47's.

http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq113/daveincsa/IMG_1576.jpg

DammitBoy
August 8, 2009, 02:00 PM
Somebody vandalized your home and painted the walls purple! :eek:

Gambit
August 8, 2009, 03:52 PM
Regarding Mosin's.....Vasily Zaitzeff

CZguy
August 9, 2009, 01:32 AM
Somebody vandalized your home and painted the walls purple!

I'm sure that's just a photo shop special effect.

Snowdog
August 9, 2009, 02:49 AM
Somebody vandalized your home and painted the walls purple!

Yeah, those vandals are called "wives". Ask me how a know, with my honeydew-colored bedroom and all. LOL

Personally, I find very few things as entertaining as casual plinking. One of my hobbies is to collect and restore old C&R rifles. Some of my most enjoyable plinking sessions are with these firearms.

jim in Anchorage
August 9, 2009, 03:04 AM
Yeah, those vandals are called "wives". Ask me how a know, with my honeydew-colored bedroom and all. LO


:D Where would you even FIND paint that color?:confused:

Antihero
August 9, 2009, 03:05 AM
Yeah, those vandals are called "wives". Ask me how a know, with my honeydew-colored bedroom and all. LOL


Ah to be a bachelor and have walls painted white,grey or black and not Morning Sunrise Fulfillment or whatever absurd name they've come up with next.

nathan
August 9, 2009, 03:43 AM
A headshot is a good thing . This huge 260 lb beast taken at less than 50 yds . I used Sako M 39 1942 using 7.62 x 54 R Seller Belliot 180 gr SP. Knocked it down where it should be !

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc127/Dongha_97/HPIM1939.jpg

PandaBearBG
August 9, 2009, 06:28 AM
Milsurp firearms are great, they have great history and can be great shooters, yeah some people would say they might be too simple or rough, but during their time many were the premier evolution in technology during their time. The fact that they are still widely used today and many shoot just as well as they did in their service years is a testiment to their reliablity, function, and design. Comparing them to Remmy 700's or Barrett .50's or whatever modern firearm is a moot arguement. W/O those "old" guns we wouldn't have the new ones we got today.

Besides it takes a certain amount of skill to be accurate with those old rifles, considering many use your basic iron sites or very very low magnification simple optics. Anyone with a tuned and tricked out 700 with a $3000 scope on it can make nice groups at 500 + yards (Let's not break out into MOA arguements here.) but the those old milsurp rifles can do the same thing with basic irons or 2x magnification. A great rifle doesn't have to be based on price or looks, it just needs to be finely constructed and to have a solid, well rounded and adept shooter who has the skill to squeeze every ounce of power behind that weapon.

lencac
August 9, 2009, 11:29 AM
Sounds like there's a Myth Busters edition here somewhere :scrutiny:

CZguy
August 9, 2009, 11:31 AM
Sounds like there's a Myth Busters edition here somewhere

There could be................but they make a lot of mistakes when they do a segment on forearms.

dispatch55126
August 9, 2009, 01:07 PM
When it comes to milsurps, people will either look at the rifle and think "What a crude piece of s@*t" or have the foresight to look beyond the rifle and see its true purpose.

Take the 91/30. It's long, heavy with a crappy bolt and trigger. However, think about who it was for and what it did. They took millions of peasants who, with no formal training, took the 91/30 and beat back the Germans armed with fine K98's. Even end-run Arisakas with the wooden buttplate held on by 3 nails is a unique solution to the situation they were in. All of these crude, POS milsurps inflicted hundreds of thousands of casualties so they must have been doing something.

Most milsurps will never be 400 yard pronghorn rifles and they were never meant to be. Most however, will still do what they were designed to do which is hold minute-of-man accuracy beyond 100-200 yards.

To change the subject but stay on topic, why would anyone want a clapped out, carbureted, oil bath air filter Willys MB when they could drive a new, comfortable, fuel injected Wrangler? The answer is its fun to own, drive, work on and its history.

.38 Special
August 9, 2009, 01:37 PM
why would anyone want a clapped out, carbureted, oil bath air filter Willys MB when they could drive a new, comfortable, fuel injected Wrangler? The answer is its fun to own, drive, work on and its history.

Understood and agreed. The question, though, is why people would claim the Willys is better made, faster, and more reliable, and anyone who disagrees must be a Jeep snob?

lencac
August 9, 2009, 01:57 PM
I hate snobs :barf: They are so ............... well ............ snobby :rolleyes:

CZguy
August 9, 2009, 02:28 PM
Understood and agreed. The question, though, is why people would claim the Willys is better made, faster, and more reliable, and anyone who disagrees must be a Jeep snob?

It seems your finally starting to get it .38 special. :D

This whole discussion has very little to do with the facts. It's all about emotion.

Quentin
August 9, 2009, 02:52 PM
Well I'll agree you should buy quality firearms. I did back in the 70s with Colts, S&W, FN HP, Ruger, Marlin, etc. Though they cost more than the cheaper models I still have them and they function fine. Of course I've added a few since and again try to get quality. You soon forget the price and have a better gun.

But I also have military firearms and love them. It's so much fun playing with an old M44, SKS, Luger, etc. I admire the engineering and how well they work for their intended purpose. Firing a Luger is amazing, you wonder how they ever could work but they do very well.

The weapons that are the most fun though are a true military 1911 and AKM. Old designs that work well today and compete with modern firearms. I'd almost add the Luger into that category too.

jimmyraythomason
August 9, 2009, 04:26 PM
A firearm is designed for only one thing. To deliver a projectile to a distant point. If it delivers that projectile to a given point consistantly what does any of the perifery matter.What does it matter if it is parkerized,or high polish blue or satin finish blue, or stainless steel or bare metal or a rust bucket? Iron sights or $45 scope or a $3000 scope? (Sights or scopes do nothing to improve the accuracy of the rifle only of the shooter)? What does it matter if it was made yesterday or 110 years ago? If it has a synthetic stock,either black,camo or ANY color,or wood,either fine walnut or cheap birch/beech etc.? What if it has wood from the buttplate to the muzzle? I have never said that mil-surps are better or are better made than a modern rifle but I do know that in one particular case a 100 year old mil-surp OUTPERFORMED a new Rem.Model 700BDL-DM. Had I been comparing it against a Savage,Stevens or another 700 the story may well have been different. I like mil-surps,I like modern rifles,I prefer to hunt with and shoot my converted Mausers. Prettier does get the job done. No wholesale comparison can be made between mil-surps(conditions vary greatly) and modern rifles. Buy and shoot what you like,whether that is expensive,or budget level modern gun or mil-surp of any description. Have fun,ignore the detractors and be safe.

MJR007
August 9, 2009, 05:10 PM
I just wasted 16 minutes of my life reading this crap.

fatelk
August 9, 2009, 06:32 PM
I just wasted 16 minutes of my life reading this crap.
And another couple minutes posting about it.:neener:

I can see your point, .38 Special. You'll never hear me say that my 1943 M1 carbine is a superior combat weapon to a modern M4, or that my Mosin Nagant could out-shoot the average Winchester model 70.

I fully understand the limitations of the rifles I like to shoot, and have no delusions about their capabilities. If someone wants to hunt with one for whatever reasons, they will do the job, though there are far better hunting rifles out there.

Several years ago, a friend wanted to get a rifle. Big 5 had Turkish Mausers on sale at the time for $50. He asked me if it was something he could mount a scope on and use for hunting.

Since he had no interest in the history of it and just wanted a hunting tool, I advised him to save his money and buy a hunting rifle instead. For $450 he bought a really nice used Remington 700 with a Leupold scope.

Me? I'd rather buy 9 Turkish Mausers (wish I would have).

jimmyraythomason
August 9, 2009, 06:48 PM
Under the same circumstances,fatelk, I would have given the same advise.

bunkysdad
August 9, 2009, 07:20 PM
:cool:I'd enjoy having the milsurps you got rid of, but then again I'd enjoy having your Ruger Blackhawk!

MJR007
August 9, 2009, 08:23 PM
Old bull --- young bull.

I am 38, and stand in the middle. I like them all for what they are.

Saiga39
August 9, 2009, 09:28 PM
Yeah, those vandals are called "wives". Ask me how a know, with my honeydew-colored bedroom and all. LOL

Personally, I find very few things as entertaining as casual plinking. One of my hobbies is to collect and restore old C&R rifles. Some of my most enjoyable plinking sessions are with these firearms.

:D

That's pretty funny.

Yes the "Vandal" was my wife.

Actually we refer to it as our 'Purple Passion' room. ;)

Anyways, back to the rifle. I REALLY like the Yugo and the scout scope setup works really well. Looking forward to taking it in the woods this deer season.

gun addict
August 10, 2009, 01:35 PM
to .38 special "quality" is defined by how big of a scope you can easily put on there and if it has an synthetic stock

Again, look at a good Swedish Mauser or a Swiss K31, that's quality

jd46561
August 10, 2009, 02:42 PM
"Again, look at a good Swedish Mauser or a Swiss K31, that's quality"

Agreed!, there are fine to excellent quality milsurps out there. I have a few.

lencac
August 10, 2009, 08:07 PM
Saiga39, I was looking at your photo. I think the purple walls are just fine but after looking at it I can't help but wonder, are you and your wife midgets?

TEDDY
August 10, 2009, 09:51 PM
I have mil sups and I like every one the history to me is in the design and how they compare with others.i have some well used clunkers and the are accurate enuf for hunting even if I dont use them for that.wonder what he would have done when I first started in 1937.most all were milsurp and even the new guns were factory mil converted to sporting.both rem and win.they were 1917 enfields with the ears milled off and blued.with sporter stocks.

.38 Special
August 10, 2009, 10:35 PM
to .38 special "quality" is defined by how big of a scope you can easily put on there and if it has an synthetic stock

I have a grand total of one synthetic stocked rifle, and the largest scope I currently own is a fixed 6X. So you might want to have your crystal ball serviced. :p

CZguy
August 10, 2009, 10:55 PM
to .38 special "quality" is defined by how big of a scope you can easily put on there and if it has an synthetic stock

To be fair..........there is nothing in any of his posts in this thread to make me think that is true.

.38 Special
August 10, 2009, 11:27 PM
FWIW, I prefer turn of the century British sporting rifles and their modern knock-offs. IOW, fine walnut, blued steel, and iron sights or low-powered optics. I find these guns to be the best combination of handling, accuracy, and appearance for my purposes, which consist primarily of hunting, plinking, informal target shooting, and general woods loafing.

Of course, the typical milsurp will accomplish all of these things, but none of them nearly as well. I find them generally lousy handlers (too long and too heavy), rarely more accurate than 3-4 MOA, generally poorly finished and carrying very plain "hardwood" of some description, and possessed of sights ranging from barely adequate to almost completely useless. As always, there can be exceptions, but there is a reason why the average prices for sporting rifles are many times higher than those for milsurps. Apparently the average shooter finds sporters much more useful than milsurps and has voted with his wallet.

Buncha snobs!

VirgilCaine
August 11, 2009, 12:57 PM
Regarding Mosin's.....Vasily Zaitzeff
I'll do you one better--meet the White Death. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_Hayha)

Saiga39
August 11, 2009, 02:47 PM
Saiga39, I was looking at your photo. I think the purple walls are just fine but after looking at it I can't help but wonder, are you and your wife midgets?

No???

Maybe I took the picture at an odd angle????
Anyways this has nothing to do with Milsurp rifles so I'll no longer address my purple walls.

jd46561
August 11, 2009, 07:48 PM
"generally poorly finished and carrying very plain "hardwood" "

What a load of crap that statement is. (and these are just ones from my collection, let alone everyone elses on the web).
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_1900shortrifle001-1.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=1900shortrifle001-1.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_Swissrifles013.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=Swissrifles013.jpg)
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_TigerK11006.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=TigerK11006.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_M96Swede006.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=M96Swede006.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_M39004.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=M39004.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_M39003.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=M39003.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/th_2006_1219k980017.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/?action=view&current=2006_1219k980017.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/th_2006_1219k980015.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/?action=view&current=2006_1219k980015.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/th_YCMauserR.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/?action=view&current=YCMauserR.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/th_YCMauserL.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/?action=view&current=YCMauserL.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/th_19260b5c.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/?action=view&current=19260b5c.jpg)

jd46561
August 11, 2009, 07:49 PM
More plain hardwood milsurps...
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/SSMini14.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/th_Tiger-K-2002.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/?action=view&current=Tiger-K-2002.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/th_Swissrifles043.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/?action=view&current=Swissrifles043.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/th_1c.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/?action=view&current=1c.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/th_2007_0829SR0027.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/?action=view&current=2007_0829SR0027.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/th_2007_0829SR0022-2.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/?action=view&current=2007_0829SR0022-2.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/th_Tigerk31.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/?action=view&current=Tigerk31.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/th_Swiss9611001.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/?action=view&current=Swiss9611001.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/th_Swiss9611002.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/?action=view&current=Swiss9611002.jpg)

jon_in_wv
August 11, 2009, 08:00 PM
I agree with JD EMPHATICALLY. I only have a Mosin 91/30, Mosin M44, and a K31. All fo them have beautiful wood, nice bluing, and the shoot wonderfully. Ammo is cheap and the vibe of shooting those pieces of history is something you can't get from a modern rifle. Add to that they cost a fraction of a new rifle and they are a pretty good deal if you ask me. JD, You probably bought that whole collection for less than what I'll have in my Savage I'm building as my 1000 yard rifle.

.38 Special
August 11, 2009, 09:05 PM
Well, JD, you certainly put me in my place. Arguing against the idea that milsurps tend to have plain wood and poor finishes by putting up pictures of milsurps with plain wood and poor finishes. Genius! LMAO.

JTW Jr.
August 11, 2009, 09:11 PM
Dunno about anyone else , I don't really care how mine look , it's how they shoot that matters.

If I want to shoot 1" groups at 100 yards I reach for the Tikka 308 , but if I am going out to hammer steel and want a challenge I will grab the Mauser or the Enfield.

The Tikka is hands down better in the accuracy dept , however I find the milsurps more fun to shoot. Could it be nostalgia ? Perhaps...

Regardless of what your choice is , just get out there and shoot em , safe queens suck ;)

jd46561
August 11, 2009, 10:57 PM
Plain wood , ya ok, Since when is tigerstriped and burled walnut and quarter sawn Beech, and flame Birch...plain?. Get a clue.

Here are a few more PLAIN WOOD milsurps . I enlarged them for ya too. ( These picts are off the net)


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/DSC_0799.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/DSC_0800.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/K-11-2.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/tiger96-11.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/M783.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/G96-11G1911K11B.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Swiss%20rifles/Compclean.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/IMG_0509.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/Right_side_bayo.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/841eb164.jpghttp://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/03b.jpg

gun addict
August 11, 2009, 11:09 PM
yeah and Swedish Steel + fine blueing is now "crappy finish"......get a grip .38 special, you're losing it.

Look at that tigerstripper walnut on those Swiss rifles, sure is ugly huh? :rolleyes:

gun addict
August 11, 2009, 11:12 PM
hey .38 special, post a picture of how your beautifully finished fine walnut stocked rifle on here will ya?

jimmyraythomason
August 11, 2009, 11:17 PM
Hey guys,ease up on .38 special. I know he asked for it but I think you have all made your points. Ganging up ain't cool.

Gelgoog
August 11, 2009, 11:39 PM
Well, JD, you certainly put me in my place. Arguing against the idea that milsurps tend to have plain wood and poor finishes by putting up pictures of milsurps with plain wood and poor finishes. Genius! LMAO.
http://www.trollhunters.org/files/trolls/troll-01.jpg

.38 Special
August 12, 2009, 12:21 AM
Coupla things before I leave you good folks to the name-calling...

I didn't say no milsurp ever had decent wood. I said that most don't, so posting pics of the rare milsurp with decent wood doesn't exactly prove anything. Hell, I've seen pics of a Garand with exhibition grade Circassian. That doesn't obviate my point either.

Moreover, most of the guns pictured here with the intent of "showing me" good wood really don't have very good wood. This, IMO, simply demonstrates that most of you folks really don't know much about such things. (Yeah, I know how "snobby" that sounds, but I don't know how to put it nicely.)

As for the assertion that these are examples of "fine blueing", well, see above. Most of those guns are indeed blued, but that's about all you can say about them.

None of which is terribly important. If you like such guns, have at it. But again, the claim that these are in any way as "nice" as a good sporter -- in terms of appearance, handling, accuracy, or any of the other things that most people value in a rifle -- is unsupportable.

jd46561
August 12, 2009, 12:32 AM
Fine, you can have your $3000.00 burled Walnut sporter hunting rifle safe queen. That leaves more milsurps for us. :D
Here are a couple of hand made $3000.00+ rifles a friend of mine made. (Apples to oranges),Yes ,there is a difference, these sit in a safe, or are displayed. The average milsurp went thru years of human abuse and war. And some still look darn good for their age. Plain wood or fancy!. Say what you will , will just have to disagree on this subject.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_BoBsstocks020.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=BoBsstocks020.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_BoBsstocks026.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=BoBsstocks026.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_BoBsstocks033.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=BoBsstocks033.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_BoBsstocks037.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=BoBsstocks037.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_BoBsstocks038.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=BoBsstocks038.jpg)http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/th_BoBsstocks041.jpg (http://s6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/?action=view&current=BoBsstocks041.jpg)

.38 Special
August 12, 2009, 12:35 AM
And you're welcome to them. I hope they're everything you want in a rifle.

Meanwhile, I'll be out in the field with my $3,000 safe queens, putting some new dings in the wood and generally having a ball. And I'm sure if we meet we'll get along just fine, as long as you don't start telling me tall tales about MOA with irons and corrosive surplus ammo, and then calling me a snob because I'm laughing at you. :neener:

.38 Special
August 12, 2009, 12:45 AM
This, BTW,

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y206/jd46561/Mausers/841eb164.jpg

is a fine looking piece.

Cut about a foot off of that barrel, turn the "Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me" bolt handle down, and chamber it for a useful cartridge, and you've got yourself a fine rifle! :p

R.W.Dale
August 12, 2009, 12:53 AM
Just to do a little trolling of my own here I feel obligated to point out the first place group in my match.


Pours 5 gallons of MEK on the flames

gun addict
August 12, 2009, 01:19 AM
okay, .38special is a troll, just ignore and let this thread die

Ignition Override
August 12, 2009, 01:38 AM
gun addict, how about just one more question?
I will never know enough about guns to debate anything, being a very late-starter in life, but classic military (or -styled) rifles will always hold my attention more than anything, except a tall, slender young lady with smooth legs, wearing skimpy shorts.

Fatelk (and fellow shooters):
Were not Turkish Mausers built at Brno, in the Czech Republic, or were the Persian Mausers built in Brno?
Thank you for your patience.

gun addict
August 12, 2009, 02:07 AM
well that's a good question but unfortunatly it is a bit vague. There are many models of Turkish model such as the 1893, 1903, 1938 etc. Most of Turkish mausers are made in Germany and many were assembled/updated in Ankara or K.kale factory. Some turkish mauser model such as M98/22 were contracted and made in Brno factory, and sold to Turkey.

Anyway i hope that helped, but it probably made it more confusing. Turkish mausers can be bought for very cheap but most of them have real slick actions and will make good shooters

then again what do i know, they're all just a bunch of cheap wood and crappy finished metals not worth a damn compared to modern day sporter guns you can buy from Wallmart, right?:neener:

aprayinbear
February 9, 2010, 09:36 PM
Just my two cents worth!

Found this thread tonight and guess what...........I just purchased a 1932 Izzy 91/30 about a week ago and I love it. Shot it for the first time yesterday and excuse the expression, but what a blast. I didn't put it on a rest, but offhand standing, it was easy to hold my target groups between 2-4" at about 100 feet. I'm hoping to get 2-3moa when I test fire at 100 yards. Sorry the original poster didn't like his K31 or other milsurps, but I love mine.

I'm also into archery (primative archery) and blackpowder shooting. On occasion I throw a few atlatl darts (which were once used to hunt just about anything) as well. All of these are perfectly acceptable hunting weapons for those who choose to use them. And none of them is half as accurate at distance as the least of the milsurps.

I'm a target shooter myself, but because of very limited funds I'll never have an expensive target rifle. But I do have relatively well made and accurate guns, like my Charles Daly Superior .22 topped with a barska scope. A real working man's (or woman) firearm all around. So what if it's not a Suhl, or an Annie, I can still shoot in the sporter class and do quite well. And I don't expect my Izzy to shoot well against a Remmy 700, but against other milsurps I think I can do well with a little practice.

I guess my point is that in shooting, as with everything else, value is relative. And shooting fun is not about perfection, it's about squeezing whatever, accuracy, function and pleasure we can muster from our chosen firearms as we master their capabilities.

So Happy Shooting No Matter if it's A Savage or a Slingshot!:neener:

BHP FAN
February 9, 2010, 09:42 PM
Milsurps aren't accurate? Hilarious!

lopezni
February 9, 2010, 09:51 PM
well then quit whining and give up your rifles to someone who will appreciate them.

lencac
February 9, 2010, 10:01 PM
Good job aprayinbear. Enjoy the heck out of it. I've had a number of Mosins and what I have come to learn over the years is that for the most part the rifle is deceptively accurate. But because virtually everyone shoots surplus ammo out of them they never realize how accurate they can be. Very few folks handload for their $100 Mosins. Kind of like putting pearls on a pig. And I completely understand the advantages of shooting inexpensive surplus ammo. However, and there is always a however in life, the truth is the surplus ammo in most cases is terribly inaccurate. So it skews the shooters perception of the rifle. I do handload for my Mosin. I use Sierra 174 gr. MK .311 dia. with Norma or Lapua brass and it makes the Mosin a whole differnet critter. It brings the Mosin's accuracy to be comparable to any surplus mil-spec rifle with the exception of the Swiss K-31's.
Enjoy that new Mosin and remember the Mosin will last a lot longer than that bruised shoulder :D
Here's a pic of my like new M44 that I removed the bayonet and sleeve from but retained the sight. Quite simple to do actually and makes it a very much more user friendly rifle. With handloaded ammo at 100 yrds. off the bench I can easily get 2 inch groups when I do my part properly.
And a pic of my 91/30 like new that is totally off the hook with handloaded ammo.

aprayinbear
February 9, 2010, 10:32 PM
Thanks Lencac!

I plan on trying to reload for my mosin as well. Here's a pic of mine. It's a refurb, but the bore and muzzle look new!

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f341/aprayinbear/9130008.jpg

I was interested in trying to work up some lighter loads with cast bullets. Beartooth bullets has a good selection. It will be interesting seeing what my rifle likes. To me that's all part of the fun.

All The Best:D

murdoc rose
March 8, 2010, 02:38 AM
ill take a safe full of mosins over a ar anyday

Col. Plink
March 8, 2010, 06:10 AM
A buddy of mine has very favorable results with his Tula hex Mosin and recently added a carbine version (c.'54). Jury's still out on the carbine but his full-length Mosin is a pre-WWII I believe and he shoots it with the original iron sights.

Ignition Override
March 8, 2010, 10:00 AM
My MN44s' groups at 50 yards were about 6" with the bayonets extended.

In stark contrast, a friend had never shot an LE.
He took a few shots at 50 yards, then sat on the ground with my #4..

His first shot at 100 yards was right into the bullseye's center!
Having retired from a military (reserves) rifle team might have helped.

lencac
March 8, 2010, 08:25 PM
Yeah, no doubt it. Who, in their right mind would want one of those clunky, junky, cheaply made, inaccurate, high maintanence, old ugly military rifles anyway ;)
Heck, I got this old POS that I would be embarrassed to even think about trying to sell this to someone for even $100.
Yep, no doubt it. Who'd want a piece of junk like this :neener:

66912
March 8, 2010, 09:51 PM
Sounds like you were born to late son. No offense, but those rifle were meant to be operated by "Rifleman". An art that died when we stopped appreciating the marriage of walnut and steel. Every milsurp you fined will be slightly different then it's brother. It is not like going to Dicks and picking one out of the lineup that has the least amount of handleing marks. Each one tells a different story. I am just sayin'..........

lencac
March 8, 2010, 11:10 PM
66912, it's always interesting to me the things people think they see. I wasn't born too late grand pa. I was being facetious. That rifle is mine. I built it and it shoots sub-MOA. Geez ... sometimes you just got to spell out the simplist things.:banghead:

Ignition Override
March 8, 2010, 11:34 PM
Some us buy only milsurp rifles (pre-AR plastic), or military-styled (SKS, Mini).
A classic Mauser, LE etc any day. The more people buy the newer guns, the better.

lionking
March 8, 2010, 11:51 PM
lordy what a thread! Having been on a guitar forum before coming here I was thinking on that guitar forum about how snobbery and "how many guitar players does it take to screw in a light bulb" Im right your wrong"" "no you are wrong I am right"....Les pauls rule strats suck"...."No strats rule Lespaul are over priced junk"....Youtube is even worse about that, "you didn't hit that one note perfect" :rolleyes:

Only to come here and see different gun style people pitting against each other too. Some distinguished members even like Krochus taking jabs at some.:p

38special~ "is a fine looking piece.

Cut about a foot off of that barrel, turn the "Is that a gun in your pocket or are you just happy to see me" bolt handle down, and chamber it for a useful cartridge, and you've got yourself a fine rifle"


38special, Is that sorta like "yeah baby I'll marry you just loose a few pounds, get a boob job and learn to cook first"?:p


Hey milsurps are what they are. Yeah probably on average 3 to 6 inch groups @ 100yds is what you'll get, depending on condition and ammo. Not something that will make you glee with "cloverleaf" sized groups but ain't it fun to blast bowling pins with them?:cool:

And some milsurps like some Mausers, Finnish Mosins,or Swiss rifles can be pretty accurate, 2 inch consistantly at 100 yds without a scope only using stock sights. I saw a guy one time at the range with a normal Mosin he bubba'd and scoped and with hand loads was getting 1 inch groups at 100 yds.

I like all guns, I'll take a 9mm and a .45, a AR-15 and AK, that one with wood, that one with synthetic, and a milsurp and a modern Savage also if you please. I'll accept fake or real boobs and love both strats and Lespauls also btw.:cool:

robmkivseries70
March 9, 2010, 12:39 PM
Many moons ago my yet to be BIL and a friend of his went to the local range. The friend had a commercial semiauto Remington in 30.06 or .308. It fell apart after about 75 rounds.
That answers any question in my mind about Military Surplus. :D
Best,
Rob

SSN Vet
March 9, 2010, 01:06 PM
Friends don't let friends buy mil. surps....

I won't touch them...

I'm a big time history nut and I know they'll be just like crack cocain to my week soul.

I can see myself losing the house, the wife & kids and living in a tent under a highway bridge with a hundred mil. surp. rifles hidden under my cot.

CZguy
March 9, 2010, 01:53 PM
I'm a big time history nut and I know they'll be just like crack cocain to my week soul.

Oh just looking at a picture won't hurt ya.....:evil:

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/03A3II.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/M1CarbineII.jpg
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii299/badgerone/M1I.jpg

I can see myself losing the house, the wife & kids and living in a tent under a highway bridge with a hundred mil. surp. rifles hidden under my cot.

I save you a space under the bridge.

jimmyraythomason
March 9, 2010, 02:25 PM
You definitely have a cruel streak,CZguy.

CZguy
March 9, 2010, 03:08 PM
You definitely have a cruel streak,CZguy.

Well you know how it is.........an addict wants everyone else to be addicted too, so they don't look as bad. :D

millertyme
March 9, 2010, 03:25 PM
My dad just killed a 400lbs elk with his 1903A3 last year. Occasionally I'll joke with my German coworker about the gun being used in defense of freedom against his oppressive ancestors when he gets to talking about how great Germany is and how the United States doesn't rate. Then I'll ask him to go out shooting with me.

jimmyraythomason
March 9, 2010, 03:46 PM
Well you know how it is......... Indeed I do!

essayons21
March 9, 2010, 04:17 PM
While some of the pictures of gorgeous milsurps are nice, this forum beatdown has turned into the savage brutalization of a very dead horse.

I think it is time to let this thread die.

jimmyraythomason
March 9, 2010, 04:35 PM
I think it is time to let this thread die.
So stop feeding it.

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