LEO's and Citizens


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bogidu
July 29, 2009, 01:17 PM
Question for LEO's on this forum. How do you feel about the 'armed citizen'? Those of us who are not in law enforcement, military, or any other professional organization, but who practice, train, & legally carry either openly or concealed?

When you have interactions with them, are you glad that they carry, or do you just wish that the average joe were all unarmed?

Thanks.

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chris in va
July 29, 2009, 01:26 PM
Things will be a bit biased on here and you won't get a true cross section of LEO attitudes toward 'citizen carry'.

Just my .02.

gidaeon
July 29, 2009, 01:38 PM
Things will be a bit biased on here and you won't get a true cross section of LEO attitudes toward 'citizen carry'.
+1 !!!

This is an unashamedly\openly PRO crowd. Now ask your question by sneeking onto a LE forum out there and see what happens with varied answers from people and parts of the country :uhoh: :eek:

Shung
July 29, 2009, 01:54 PM
someone posted months ago a link where such a discussion was going on.. It was a LEO forum... and some things were not nice to read..

grndslm
July 29, 2009, 02:25 PM
:eek: I'd like to see that thread.

Birdmang
July 29, 2009, 02:35 PM
If any LEO's are on here please PM me. I am about to graduate from college and have been planning to get into LE for a long time. I could use some guidance!

Thanks.

larry_minn
July 29, 2009, 02:39 PM
In the real world it will vary by state, county, Dept, Officer, and how his/her day has been going. (as well as what started contact)

Normally in MN it has been "good" The worst was when I was NOT carrying. I got stopped for speeding ticket. I admitted I was speeding/Officer told me to come back to his squad. So I sit in pass seat as he writes ticket. (He did drop it 2mph so ticket was cheaper)
When he was done he asked if I had any questions. (since I had to pay already why not get my moneys worth) So I asked him. "Now it does NOT apply today because I don't have it along. I have a carry permit and IF I had my gun on me how would you have liked to been informed?"

I got a lecture on why I should NEVER carry a gun. If I ever carried a gun I better have at least $10k in CASH on me. I made the mistake of saying (that my understanding was )I couldn't use gun to protect property but only life.......

I figured I was lucky he didn't walk around car with nightstick "finding" smashed tail lights.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
July 29, 2009, 03:09 PM
I found these for some interesting reading http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/830601935/m/35510245 This thread had some really broad replies http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125494 another good thread http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123683 another onehttp://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123487 THIS ONE IS A MUST READ-LEO POLL ON CCW IN CLASSROOMS http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116581

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
July 29, 2009, 03:17 PM
This was also interesting http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115203 The link to the main forum http://forums.officer.com/forums/

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
July 29, 2009, 03:21 PM
I believe the officer that gave this ignorant response is from California-----Officers carry a weapon for the main purpose of "preservation of life". We, if I may speak for my fellow officers, do not carry a weapon to impress our family or friends.

I do not see any reason why a civilian needs to carry a concealed weapon for any reason.

I'm a firm believer that every person (in the our great country, the USA) should have the right to own and carry a weapon. But lets be realistic, this is not the "old west". Most city's have great police departments who will have units on scene in minutes, if not seconds.

Although I have a right to carry a weapon at all times, I rarely carry a weapon off duty and I live in a metro, 2nd largest in the US. I leave that up to the "on duty" officers to take care of business and I'll be a good witness for those officers.
2wheeldep is offline Reply With Quote

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
July 29, 2009, 03:24 PM
Here is a response from an officer whose hand I would like to shake----It is your right to carry a gun and your responsibility to protect yourself and your family, not mine.

Do not depend on us to protect you because we will not be there at the exact moment that may determine your fate.

Nobody cares more about your safety than you yourself does.

Our job is to protect society as a whole, not the individual.
_______and here is a response from a NYC officer--------- Well then put me down as the 2nd cop you've ever heard who's against it.

It might be a difference of opinion based on our locations. 2wheeldep and I live and work in large, densely populated cities. I've seen too many bar fights, road rage, parties, etc... that have gone out of control, and if guns were available, the beatings would have been murders.

If I lived in an area where there was no road rage, and people know almost everyone in the bars they hang out in, I might have a different perspective. But if I show up on a scene and there's someone else with a gun in his hand, he better be in uniform or have a badge, or there's a good chance he's getting dropped.

In some states there are strict regulation and training to get a CCW. In other states living there and having no criminal record is good enough for a CCW or open carry. The good guys get to carry guns, but so do the bad guys, if they haven't been arrested yet.

I'd rather not gamble my life on who is who.
NYCDep is offline Reply With Quote
_______

DHJenkins
July 29, 2009, 03:53 PM
In the same thread, posted by cpd169:

There's another fact reported by the F.B.I statisticians that we don't hear much about in LE circles, for obvious reasons, and that is that armed citizens successfully shoot and kill more violent felons each year than do the police and hit their intended target with better accuracy.

I found this very interesting. I wish I could find the stats.

Deanimator
July 29, 2009, 03:55 PM
Regarding the NYC and CA officers, as someone said here this week, "We don't have to protect you and we won't let you protect yourself."

That's a perfect example of the "game preserve" theory of law enforcement. It doesn't matter if any individual antelope is killed by a lion, as long as there are enough antelope around to feed the desired number of lions. It would be "unnatural" for the antelope to grow fangs and claws and start disemboweling the lions.

I find such an attitude despicable.

danbrew
July 29, 2009, 04:27 PM
So I'm uncertain whether Home Depot George said this or if he was quoting, looks like he was quoting somebody else, so I'll simply author my comments to the author of these comments:

I believe the officer that gave this ignorant response is from California-----Officers carry a weapon for the main purpose of "preservation of life". We, if I may speak for my fellow officers, do not carry a weapon to impress our family or friends.

I do not see any reason why a civilian needs to carry a concealed weapon for any reason.

I'm a firm believer that every person (in the our great country, the USA) should have the right to own and carry a weapon. But lets be realistic, this is not the "old west". Most city's have great police departments who will have units on scene in minutes, if not seconds.

Although I have a right to carry a weapon at all times, I rarely carry a weapon off duty and I live in a metro, 2nd largest in the US. I leave that up to the "on duty" officers to take care of business and I'll be a good witness for those officers.


My thoughts? Guess what, pal, you ARE A CIVILIAN. Just like me. Most CCW types have far greater training and experience with firearms than most cops. I once had a "disagreement" with a fella in a bar that happened to be a cop and his argument was basically the same - that cops were a separate class, that they had training, etc. I laughed in his face and told him he was no different than the rest of us and we were probably better shots. He got pretty red in the face and pointed his finger at me and stammered that he better "not ever catch me carrying a gun". Had I been in a more pissy mood, I'da figured out what yahoo department he worked for and lodged a complaint.

All I ask is this - give me the same right to protect myself and my family that the average cop on the street has. That the mayor has. That the president of the United States has.

edSky
July 29, 2009, 04:38 PM
I just read the same posting from the gentleman from LA. I'm relieved to know that a LEO will be where I need him within seconds.

(Remember, LA is where Superman and Spiderman and all the other super heroes hang out when they're not busy in the rural areas.)

LRaccuracy
July 29, 2009, 04:47 PM
I never took a survey but from the cops I know, I would be willing to bet that it's a
75% / 25% split in favor of concealed carry in Ohio by LEO's . However some cops are as passionate about outlawing guns as Sara Brady is, if that tells you anything.

Most cops realize that they are not going to be cops forever and they have to carry under concealed carry laws after retirement or quitting. Well, that is in most States. I know what the laws are in Ohio, because you can read the ORC at http://codes.ohio.gov/orc

bogidu
July 29, 2009, 05:20 PM
Wow! Thank you all for the input! You guys are great!

Kindrox
July 29, 2009, 05:36 PM
I do not see any reason why a civilian needs to carry a concealed weapon for any reason.

I think this gets filed under "your wife has the right to entertain a rapest for 25 minutes while the cops get around to her 911 call".

Long story stort, my wife had good reason to dial 911 about a suspecius man. A cop turned up 25 minutes later. Up till then she did not really think she needed to carry a gun either, until she realized it was her butt that would have had to deal with the situaion had it turned ugly.

I think the comment that some cops view society as a game preserve is right on the mark.

Kentucky Windage
July 29, 2009, 05:41 PM
Regarding the assertion that most cities have great police departments and will have units on the scene in minutes rather than seconds, that's simply the dumbest rationale I've seen yet for opposing CCW. Facts:

1. The broad generalization that units will be on the scene in minutes (let alone seconds) is far from a universal truth, and it's disingenuous to even make that assertion.
2. In many situations, victims don't have minutes. They may have only seconds in which to act to save their own lives.
3. Even if units arrive in a timely manner, they may be unable to take timely action to save lives, particularly in a hostage situation. I'm sure we can all immediately recall many high-profile examples of this.

FYI, I used to teach hunter safety for many year in LA County, and put many LEO through my classes. I still have many LEO friends, but I have to honestly state that they were, collectively, the most UNSAFE handlers of firearms I've ever seen ouside of my military experience. It was a classic situation of familiary breeding carelessness. To their credit, most were in favor of CCW and railed against the stacked political deck that makes it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for an ordinary citizen to obtain a CCW in California.

Erik M
July 29, 2009, 05:53 PM
Kentucky State Police officers that I have encountered have always exibited professional courtesy and have always visualy examined my forms of identification and CCW and let me go on my way.

The city police officers in the largest town in my county will always ask for my weapon, take my operators and ccdw license and verify that they are current. they ask for proof of insurance and registration. I always feel like they are trying to find any way they can to hassle me.


I live in a rural area that is at least 20 minutes from the nearest business establisment and 30 minutes from the nearest city limits. I have worked as a volunteer fire fighter in my early 20's and would rate the police response to wrecks, arson, ect. . time in my area at >15 minutes, which would vary depending on where the sherriffs patrols were. The SD maintains 2 patrol cars on duty between the hours of midnight and 7am. The KSP supposedly keeps 2 troopers on duty from thier post overnight, but they serve several surrounding counties during this time frame. In the case of immediate deadly force I will rely on my ccw instead of the police response.

TX1911fan
July 29, 2009, 06:05 PM
We don't have to protect you and we won't let you protect yourself

Alot of the cops who have this attitude are focused only on themselves. In those posts, I saw time and again that they said "I don't want to have to have an increased risk to me with extra guns." In other words, "You people can get picked off like fish in a barrel just so I don't have to worry about a stray bullet." I wonder if these jerks would be willing to go in gun free after an active shooter so that they don't jeopardize the lives of the cops already in the building. If all those extra guns are dangerous, the cops ought to drop theirs too, right?

That's a perfect example of the "game preserve" theory of law enforcement. It doesn't matter if any individual antelope is killed by a lion, as long as there are enough antelope around to feed the desired number of lions. It would be "unnatural" for the antelope to grow fangs and claws and start disemboweling the lions.

This is the best description of this LEO attitude I have ever seen. I'm sure I'll use it myself sometime.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
July 29, 2009, 06:53 PM
I lurk on that site often, it's very interesting to see the different opinions of officers from around the country, even the way they interpret laws that seem to be cut and dry. I personally have relatives who are officers in NJ and most are NRA members and think the laws are idiotic in the state.

longdayjake
July 29, 2009, 07:00 PM
I think this depends on what part of the country you are in. Here in Idaho the officers I know from when I was in LE all took an oath to uphold the constitution. When I went through the academy our law teachers specified the importance of following the law and constitution when on the road and to always keep other's rights in mind. The reason I am not still in LE is because of the US VS. THEM attitude that cops get. I noticed myself getting it when I started hoping for another beat down or black-top boogy. Some cops can keep their compassion but others just see everyone as the BG. Once I saw myself becoming like the officers I didn't like I got a job as a security guard and went back to school and got my degree. Now I sell bullets for a living to people so that they can train and protect themselves.

That said, 99% of the cops here in town are great guys that really are on your side. I have only had to tell two to calm down and shutup.

Ala Dan
July 29, 2009, 09:21 PM
As a former LEO, I welcome the private citizen excercising his/her legal
right to carry; so long as he/she meets all the requirements of fed/state
and local laws. I do not have a problem with it~! In todays society, I
think each individual is responsible for their (and in some cases, other's)
safety. In some cases, a legally armed citizen can be a LEO's
best friend. :uhoh:

You take a state patrol officer in any state, can be miles from a back-up
unit; and dealing with a un-cooperative felon on a traffic stop, can be a
very frighting experience. I'm quite sure he/she would welocme the help
of a legally, licensed citizen while he/she deals with the perp*. Its called,
"CITIZENS MAKING A DIFFERENCE"~! :D

* FootNote- I'm quite sure I would~! I would even write a very nice
at-a-boy/girl to the local newspaper. :)

doc2rn
July 29, 2009, 10:14 PM
What is amazing is how there attitude changes from oh he is just a short crippled vet to oh crap he might know how to use that weapon, the moment my CCW is handed to them. It's happened to me 3xs, and everytime it gets funnier. When I got my armored car liscence he asked if there was a second weapon we wanted to qualify with. I jumped to put on my .45 LC. After ripping the head off at the 7 yd line (12 shots) all I heard was a whistle from the instructor behind me. Guess I passed. Wasnt allowed to carry it just wanted to shoot it.

WC145
July 29, 2009, 10:42 PM
Wow, interesting to see the conclusions drawn from responses cherry picked from threads on other sites and the rather negative attitude toward LE, their training, and ability. Initially I thought there would be more responses from cops but given the tone of the thread so far I guess I'm not surprised that there aren't.

I'm a LEO and I'm all for "shall issue" concealed carry permits and would support Vermont/Alaska style carry laws nationwide. The real world truth, as has been stated, is that everyone is pretty much on their own. The adage "when seconds count, the police are only minutes away" is all too true. There's no way for cops to be everywhere all the time so the burden naturally falls to the individual to take steps to assure the safety of themselves and their families. Obviously the members here realize that but there are plenty out there that don't and we'd all be far better off if they did. I'm sure it would result in a reduction and simplifiction of the gun control laws that we all suffer.

For the record, I appreciate being notified if you are carrying. That simple courtesy goes a long way with me and saves us both the hassle that comes with me discovering it on my own.

Also, I'm gun guy. Been around them all my life, I own a bunch, I train and practice regularly, and I'm pretty damn good with them, if I do say so myself.

LRaccuracy
July 29, 2009, 11:54 PM
Here is an attitude about carrying. I have had to carry a gun for so long it feels good not to carry one every once in a while. But when I leave it behind, I'm nervous about that I may need it.

P.O.2010
July 30, 2009, 12:05 AM
Unfortunately many people who oppose the private ownership of firearms confuse self defense with punishment. Opening fire with a pistol or revolver on someone who is commiting a violent felony against you or a third person isn't passing judgement or acting as an executioner, it's taking immediate action to preserve life and limb. Self defense, by it's very definition, is the use of force under circumstances of such acute and pressing danger as to not admit of delay. When you need to shoot, you NEED to shoot. There isn't time to wait for the Police, to summon a magistrate or to request an order of protection.

I remember receiving a call one night of an aggravated assault in progress where the subject was armed with a butcher knife. The man was a drug addict and a psychopath who had attempted earlier in the evening to recruit some people he had never met before into his "gang" (which only existed in his hallucinations). After being rebuffed, the subject left the area, retrieved a knife and came back to murder the people who had "disrespected" him. Fortunately, when the 911 call came in I was less than thirty seconds away from the location. The subject had cornered a small number of people in a hallway and was trying to kill them. When he saw my pistol pointed at his face and heard me forcefully instruct him that failure to drop the knife would result in his death he ceased his attack. He was crazy but he wasn't stupid.

What I just described occurred on a major military installation where I was working as a Military Policeman. If I hadn't shown up precisely when I did this subject would have murdered someone. He was a Soldier. His intended victims were Soldiers. Everyone in that hallway was a combat veteran. Everyone in that hallway was in good physical condition. But the subject was the only person with a weapon and that put him in control. Military regulations prohibit carrying firearms on post except in the performance of duty. If any one of the Soldiers he was trying to murder had been armed they could have stopped him but because they were rendered defenseless there was nothing they could do but frantically try to dodge his attacks and avoid bleeding to death on the floor. As it was, CQ was never able to get the blood stains out of the tiles.

Bottom line, I support both concealed and open carry by peaceable adult civilians without a permit or license. It's a natural right, it's a Constitutionally protected right and it's a right that can mean the difference between life and death not only for police and military but also for any honest person who is confronted with potentially lethal violence. Denying someone the right to carry a firearm to protect himself is tantamount to denying him the right to life, the right to liberty and the right to property.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
July 30, 2009, 10:52 AM
WC145 I tried to post statements showing how attitudes seem to go along with different areas of the country, and if you read the threads on the links I posted you can see some very heated opinions on the subject of civilian carry especially in the thread on classroom carry. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the Florida sheriffs in this area because of an incident many years ago-short story when I was in my 20's I drank very heavily as well as dabbling in drugs and one night I was out on a binge and my wife being concerned had the sheriffs out looking for me. When I finally showed up at home one sheriff was waiting for me and got me out of the car,brought me inside in cuffs and after talking to my wife he said if I go to the hospital detox immediately anything I had on my person and in my car would go bye bye, well I went to detox and he kept his word and I'm still sober. This was in east central florida and I had never met this cop in my life before this. My point is attitudes are different here than where I grew up in NJ. Up there I witnessed horrible attitudes from the officers maybe justified maybe not but when you read these threads you will see that the majority of NJ,NY cops absolutely hate firearms and the people who own them are considered threats.

eye5600
July 30, 2009, 01:15 PM
With respect to LEO's especially in urban areas, and especially, Chiefs of Police, I think that they are conditioned by what they deal with everyday. CoP's really hate to lose an officer, and cops patrolling in gang territories really do have the risk of a gunfight around the next corner.

But, like many of us in one way or another, when they focus on guns, they focus on the symptom, not not the cause, and they tend to lose track of the way they infringe on other people's rights, and hinder other people's ability to solve their own problems.

'Cause it's all about them.

Just like I think it's all about me.

huntsman
July 30, 2009, 01:35 PM
words are words judge by their actions in time of crisis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-taU9d26wT4

rbernie
July 30, 2009, 01:38 PM
When I was in northern VA, the police were not overly pleased with citizens open carrying, and the idea of encountering guns on the street seemed fairly displeasing to them.

In most places I've been/lived in north Texas (outside of Dallas itself), the state and local LEOs seem to treat the presence of a CHL as a pretty ho-hum affair. They may not cheer for it, but they don't seem to regard it as bad or a threat.

I've had occasion to observe that the LEO reaction to armed citizens is subject to change as you move from rural to suburban to inner urban settings.

Deanimator
July 30, 2009, 02:10 PM
CoP's really hate to lose an officer, and cops patrolling in gang territories really do have the risk of a gunfight around the next corner.
Similarly citizens really hate to be robbed, raped or murdered because a cop can't INSTANTLY materialize when they dial 911.. assuming their assailant ALLOWS them to dial 911.

Places like NYC and Chicago have made a conscious decision that having people be robbed, raped or murdered is a less negative outcome than having those people EFFECTIVELY defend themselves with a firearm. Cops who defend that policy (usually from those sorts of places) usually either have nothing to say in response or something contemptuous to say to those who have neither the "right" to be protected nor to protect themselves. "Tough luck" summarizes that attitude.

searcher451
July 30, 2009, 02:12 PM
Most of the LEOs I know well, and I know more than a handful, do not fear the CCL holder and in fact recognize that those who take the time to go through the process and the training and pay their money for the license are law-abiding citizens who are worthy of respect. As one of them told me recently, "You guys aren't the problem, and every good cop out there knows it full well."

The Annoyed Man
July 30, 2009, 03:51 PM
Another cogent response to the cop from LA was this one:
So you think we should leave it up to the professionals. Try this scenario out.

You are at the restaurant, you are having a heart attack and you need CPR immediately. I have been trained In CPR. Should I wait for the professionals to arrive they are only minutes away right "to take care of business" and hope for the best for you. Or would you want me, the average citizen to administer CPR on you and try to save your life?
Logic trumps emotion.

Logos
July 30, 2009, 11:49 PM
LEOs are not all the same.

Some will go into a building where shooting is going on......possibly innocent people are being massacred.

Some will listen to the gunfire but refuse to enter the building and instead call it in and wait for a heavily armed and armored SWAT team to arrive.

We have all seen this on T.V. in some of these recent college and high school multiple shootings.

The general public may not realize that the cops backed off, but most of us saw it.

Then there are cops that will dive in against all odds to protect unarmed and innocent people from being hurt.

If you can't carry a gun, you better hope for the miracle that one of these good ones shows up in time.

Deanimator
July 30, 2009, 11:56 PM
If you can't carry a gun, you better hope for the miracle that one of these good ones shows up in time.
99% of the time, it isn't going to happen with the most competent, conscientious cop who ever lived... or ever will.

It's simply irrational to expect the police to protect you as an individual.

GRIZ22
July 30, 2009, 11:56 PM
Even in the NY area the numbers may surprise some people. I worked in NY and the NY area for 26 of the 31 years I was an LEO. An honest polling of LEOs in the NY area would probably result is statistics that would show:

25% support the RKBA and like the idea of an armned citizenry

50% don't actively support it but as long as people have permits that's okay

25% are antigun to some degree

That's been my experience anyway.

stevelyn
July 31, 2009, 12:34 AM
I try and promote it as much as I can, but I also know that there are some well-meaning, dumbass citizens that shouldn't be carrying.

Logos
July 31, 2009, 01:32 AM
That's for sure.....I just hope they don't ruin it for all of us.

More states need to implement higher standards.

flrfh213
July 31, 2009, 01:33 AM
most leo i know dont mind at all, but you will always find 1 or 2 that think there is no need.
i have waited 13 min to have a sheriff car slide in and i have had them show up in 2 to 3 min... twice, they NEVER showed at all!!!! i was protected my MY firearm in ALL cases...

bensdad
July 31, 2009, 01:57 AM
Question for LEO's on this forum. How do you feel about the 'armed citizen'?

I'm curious as to why you care how they feel. How do the teachers on the forum feel about it? How do the plumbers feel about it? I'm sure cops fill the same full spectrum of opinions and attitudes about every subject under the sun. Some like Coke. Some like Pepsi. They don't have to feel good about it. They should know and understand the laws regarding carry/personal protection in their jurisdiction.

RDak
July 31, 2009, 02:28 AM
FWIW, most of the police I've known here in Michigan don't have a problem with ordinary Joe's having a CPL. But like rbernie said, the police in the larger cities seemed to frown upon it more IIRC.

Overall though, Michigan is gun friendly and so are most of the police I've known. But this strictly anecdotal and really doesn't mean much statistics wise.

danbrew
July 31, 2009, 08:56 AM
I'm curious as to why you care how they feel. How do the teachers on the forum feel about it? How do the plumbers feel about it? I'm sure cops fill the same full spectrum of opinions and attitudes about every subject under the sun. Some like Coke. Some like Pepsi. They don't have to feel good about it. They should know and understand the laws regarding carry/personal protection in their jurisdiction.

Fairly reasonable question, imho. A teacher or plumber can't arrest you or attempt to confiscate your lawfully held firearm. I'm pretty sure you won't find a single example of either happening, while you'll find lots of examples of citizens arrested, disarmed, or hassled for simple exercising their 2nd Amendment rights.

You're right on that everybody is different - and I agree completely with your last sentence. Too bad this isn't the case everywhere... :(

Tiomoid
August 1, 2009, 03:32 AM
Wow, Home Depot George is amazingly uninformed about the real world....I wish in my world the Cops would follow me around, just to make sure nothing bad happened to me.

PRM
August 1, 2009, 03:51 AM
I have been an LEO for 32 years. I am pro-second amendment and a Life Member of the NRA. CCW is an individuals right, given they meet the legal criteria and choose to carry. Personally, I have never been bothered by a law abiding citizen having a firearm - permit or not. I would like to see more get involved in shooting sports, collecting, and hunting. If all of us don't stand together on 2nd Amendment issues - we could one day loose one of the privelidges that has made our country what it is.

PRM
August 1, 2009, 04:01 AM
Double Post

steverjo
August 1, 2009, 06:15 AM
Someone has mentioned about when seconds count, police are only minutes away......

Here is an example.

I recently broke my leg. While I was at work, I got a phone call from my alarm company stating my front door at home had been breached. I noted the time and told them to call the police immediately. I live in a suburb of Los Angeles and we have a very good police department.

After thinking about the apparent break-in for a few minutes, i told work, grabbed my crutches and drove home, just a few minutes away. When i arrived, i noticed that the front door was closed, no windows damaged and no unusual cars. I drove around the block to check things out and went in my driveway. After entering the house, it was apparent that it was as false alarm, but i proceeded the clear the house, garage and yard anyway, and then sat on the front steps waiting for the police to show up. About 10 minutes later (about 25 minutes after the alarm) two police cars pulled up across the street from my house. I hobbled out to greet them, told them it was a false alarm. They did not get out of their cars.

About a month later, I received a bill in the mail for a false alarm. Due to the tardiness of their response, I went to the PD to see if I could bargain with them and get the bill reduced. One of the commanders went and got the officers' report and he stated that the police had arrived less than 5 minutes after the alarm and spent 25 minutes clearing the house and yard!!!! THEY DIDN'T EVEN GET OUT OF THEIR CARS. I was there, I know. He argued that the report is always right and i was mistaken. I checked with our alarm company and their records indicate that the police were called less than a minute after they called me at work. The police report also verifies this time. What were they doing for about 1/2 hour before they got to my house. Good thing my life did not depend on their speedy response.

Sometimes it is hard to trust those in charge. Late response and false report.

Gun Slinger
August 1, 2009, 11:52 AM
As a sworn LEO (retired) I can speak only for myself:

I have no problem at all with citizens being armed so long as they are law abiding citizens. In fact, I strongly encourage Open Carry (where legal, much as it is in my state) as well as Concealed Carry. All law abiding folk ought to be armed since it puts more "good guys" on the streets.

No felons need apply.

chuckusaret
August 1, 2009, 03:02 PM
I really don't care how law enforcement officers feel. I have reason to believe that there are many many LEO's that should not even be allowed to be a unarmed security guard. This is not based on incidents that are reported on TV or in newspapers but from the internal investigations that have not been or that will never be released to the press.

gunnutery
August 1, 2009, 06:22 PM
I'm an officer on a rural department in the midwest. I seem to be the only "gun nut" in the department (less than 10 officers). So as someone else pointed out this forum is going to be skewed. As the "gun nut" I am whole-heartedly for the arming of reponsible citizens. Even in a small town we (Police) can't be everywhere at once, therefore that means that we are usually not at the scene of a violent crime when it actually happens. When the SHTF, seconds count. Unless Law Enforcement stumbles across a violent crime, they don't get the call until it's already taken place.

I can't say for sure if the other guys in my department agree with my stance or not. I could probably name a couple that would be leery of more CCW's.

Justice5
August 1, 2009, 07:10 PM
I believe the response to this question coming from the LEO's on this site, will be that most are pro 2nd ammendment and support law abiding citizens and their choice to carry a weapon. At least that is what I would gather from previous comments. The officers on this site seem to be here for a reason, to learn and be part of a group that believes in gun rights and supports them. Personally, I wish more people carried a weapon in my jurisdiction. I also wished more officers around here carried a weapon off duty. I have never had an issue with someone carrying a concealed weapon legally, perhaps because I have never caught a "law abiding" citizen committing a crime while carrying a gun. Yes, I know it happens, but it hasn't yet to me. I would have to guess that more than half of my department supports citizen ccw. As stated previosly, the police are rarely at the scene of the crime when it takes place, and the police cannot protect the citizens if they are not there. Protecting yourself is a right that nobody should be denied. I feel that the more law abiding citizens that are armed, the safer we all are, and we send a message to the criminals that we will no longer be willing victims.

Flatbedder
August 3, 2009, 12:32 AM
"Denying someone the right to carry a firearm to protect himself is tantamount to denying him the right to life, the right to liberty and the right to property."

Isn't this the finding of "Heller vs. D.C"?

Self protection is a God given right! Its just too bad that there are so many cops with such bad attitudes!

Avenger29
August 3, 2009, 12:47 AM
Wow, Home Depot George is amazingly uninformed about the real world....I wish in my world the Cops would follow me around, just to make sure nothing bad happened to me

Dude, HDG was just referring to a thread on another forum. Not holding the opinions himself. It would have been better had he used quote tags.

Harve Curry
August 3, 2009, 12:47 AM
I have no problem at all with LEO's being armed so long as they are abiding lawful citizens.;)

isthatajoke?
August 6, 2009, 07:25 PM
It seems that a lot of cops in bigger cities don't believe in allowing citizens their Second Amendment Right of defending themselves with a handgun, and many bigger cities (NY and Chicago come to mind) have a hostile attitude toward CCW. Living in the Kansas City Metro Area, I am proud to know that the police and media are generally supportive of armed self defense. Check out this video from 2008:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vpd1KVjcaaA&feature=channel

SharpsDressedMan
August 6, 2009, 07:58 PM
Unfortunately, two things happen to people when they take the job of a police officer. They get an "us vs. them" attitude towards the public, because they routinely have to "police" the public, handling dirty domestics, nasty criminals, and irate citizens. Now add that most of these "uglies" are POTENTIALLY armed, and the cops have to worry about that. They soon lose sight of the fact that they were once civilians, and "cop" an attitude towards armed civilians, in general. Some cops develope the "I am your protector" mentality, too, and feel because they are armed, and ready to defend us, that we don't NEED to be armed. Kind of simple and short sighted, but, hey, we didn't necessarily hire them because they were smart (smart people make better money, know better than to be a cop, or become president). Now we have gone one further to make the cop feel like a higher class of citizen by giving him lifetime armed status (unless he screws up or doesn't choose to keep qualified after retirement). What we should have done was make them all "citizens" again after retirement, and have them apply for CCW permits like the regular folk. I absolutely KNOW all of this to be true, because I did the police thing for 20 years. I am proud to be just a citizen now, like the people I used to work for. (Remember who you work for, Mr. Policeman.......).

travellingJeff
August 6, 2009, 08:07 PM
Licensed firearms carriers are a less criminal group per capita than policemen. Gun owners tend to be of the mentality that keeps them away from serious legal trouble. Most gun owners are aware of the growing threat of violent crime on "the streets". You've got a class of intelligent people, aware of their Constitutional/natural rights, obeying the law, and expecting to be left alone.

Then, along comes a policeman, or a few cars worth. Flashing lights, sprawled out on pavement, gun "removed for safety" and waved about, questions asked, serial numbers "run", handcuff's put on, Miranda warnings; the cops putting on their best "Cop" show.

And finally, after all that, they give your gun back, grumble at you some, maybe arrest you for a "disorderly conduct" charge that'll only cost ya five grand to defeat, and make a note in their folder that you're not a passive citizen.



That's my take as to why so many gun owners aren't that keen on law enforcement. Their are so many laws now that no one is innocent, mearly as-yet uncaught. In the days that my father or grandfather grew up, no officer would think of starting an investigation or initiating contact with a person simply because they had a firearm on them. And, in those days, peace officers were respected and well liked. Now, law abiding, honest men get harassed by officers and the don't like it.

Ask the British how this one turns out...

Pizzagunner
August 6, 2009, 08:42 PM
Whatever their attitude towards CCW is, never let a peace officer ever call you a "civilian." They are not military, they are not paramilitary, they are your public servants. You do not live in a combat zone.

That is not saying be hostile towards them, nor even confrontational. "Might I remind you sir that you too are a civilian?"

It is minor, but it is dangerous to allow someone wielding the powers of arrest to think themselves as something apart from larger society without challenging it.

travellingJeff
August 6, 2009, 09:16 PM
I agree completely. Soon, the mixing of the military and the police will be complete.

shooter429
August 6, 2009, 09:26 PM
Around here calling 911 is a crap shoot at best. By that I mean it is very common to be put on hold for 3, 5 minutes or more before anyone even answers. Then they spend another 3-5 minutes asking questions like your name, address, phone number, etc. It is not uncommon to have 15-20 minute response times during non-peak hours. I have been told several times that all units were busy and they would get to me when they could (and I was calling about gunfire outside my residence). Three hours later I get a phone call. Once I was robbed. Police did not respond for the duration of my shift. They contacted the manager of the store that morning after I had already left.

Even if all are doing their best, it seems there are often more calls than either the dispatchers, officers or rescuers can handle.

And remember they do not have a legal obligation to protect anybody.

This kind of attitude by LEOs is very disturbing. It is not the law-abiding gun owners that are a threat to them or the community. Oh well, I guess I am preaching to the choir.

Shooter429

WC145
August 6, 2009, 10:02 PM
Question for LEO's on this forum. How do you feel about the 'armed citizen'? Those of us who are not in law enforcement, military, or any other professional organization, but who practice, train, & legally carry either openly or concealed?

So, out of three pages, this question has been answered by only a handful of LEOs (the group being queried), and each of those responses has been positive toward the 'armed citizen'. In spite of that, the majority of the other responses have been negative toward LEOs. Do any of you think maybe the cops aren't the ones with the attitude problems?:scrutiny:

rbernie
August 6, 2009, 10:26 PM
Well, let's be fair - do you think that you'll find LEOs hanging out on THR that do NOT believe in the individual RKBA? ;)

The premise of the thread was flawed because of the forum used to post it.

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