"Bulge carrying" is the best of both worlds


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Ken65
July 29, 2009, 05:23 PM
OK I'll admit it, I don't have the stones to open carry. There are benefits to open carrying though. I am coining the phrase "bulge carrying" to refer to intentionally carrying with a bulge on the hip which is OBVIOUSLY a firearm, but which is still legally concealed. I didn't arrive at this intentionally. I happen to carry on my hip sometimes, and several female relatives give me constant grief for the hip bulge. Since I just cannot bring myself to full blown open carry, and after bulge carrying a few times, I lost my shame of it. So many people flip out at open carrying that this essentially prevents that (99% of the time) while still essentially carrying openly. My shirt becomes a type of veil that keeps the emotional types from flipping out. Carrying at the small of my back is ultra uncomfortable. Carrying inside the waistband is ultra uncomfortable, plus it requires the use of larger pants. I guess I've just gotten too old and too tired of completely catering to the fears of others. I would prefer to carry fully openly, but I've had to accept that there are just too many people who view it as sticking your gun in their face and I cannot change their perception, SO, I believe that "bulge carrying" solves this.

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rcmodel
July 29, 2009, 05:27 PM
Thank god!
I thought you were gonna say you got one of them jock-strap Thunderware holsters.

rc

DHJenkins
July 29, 2009, 05:56 PM
Haha...I thought the same thing!

BHP FAN
July 29, 2009, 06:00 PM
banana hammock holster?

hmphargh
July 29, 2009, 06:13 PM
Printing is not legal in all states, in some states printing is considered open carry and you can get in big trouble for it.

TexasRifleman
July 29, 2009, 06:40 PM
Printing is not legal in all states, in some states printing is considered open carry and you can get in big trouble for it.

Having a lump under your shirt is not printing. Most of the time printing means you can CLEARLY tell it is a gun.

In these days of smart phones, PDAs, iPods, etc. the idea that a bulge is a gun won't even enter most people's heads.

I agree with the OP and I OWB "bulge carry" often.

That lump under my Tommy Bahama looks as much like a BlackBerry in a holster as it does a handgun.

Xader
July 29, 2009, 06:49 PM
That lump under my Tommy Bahama looks as much like a BlackBerry in a holster as it does a handgun.

Well, my blackberry is usually is a visible holster. But printing and open carry is OK in OR (most of it at least), so Im not too worried

DasFriek
July 29, 2009, 08:50 PM
I admit it would take x-ray vision to see my weapon while concealed,but if anyone besides the Leo's ask about my buldge my answer will be "its an insulin pump".
But mine most likley will never be made.

Kind of Blued
July 29, 2009, 09:39 PM
I do this sometimes. Usually the grip of the 1911 is covered by a T-shirt, and the rest of the gun is concealed by brown leather, a.k.a. my holster.

Its nice not having to worry about crap like my shirt getting hung up on the grip, the wind blowing my shirt up, not completely concealing the gun AND the holster, or printing. I would imagine that anybody would know I have a gun on my hip, but I have the right to not give a hoot, and they do too.

KarenTOC
July 29, 2009, 09:52 PM
I thought "bulge carry" was going to mean using the natural concealment created by love handles, spare tires, and beer bellies to hide your handgun :)

I don't think "bulge carry" as described by the OP will work for most women. Women don't like having bulges. (Does this gun make me look fat?)

wyocarp
July 29, 2009, 10:02 PM
So many people flip out at open carrying that this essentially prevents that (99% of the time) while still essentially carrying openly. My shirt becomes a type of veil that keeps the emotional types from flipping out. Carrying at the small of my back is ultra uncomfortable. Carrying inside the waistband is ultra uncomfortable, plus it requires the use of larger pants. I guess I've just gotten too old and too tired of completely catering to the fears of others. I would prefer to carry fully openly, but I've had to accept that there are just too many people who view it as sticking your gun in their face and I cannot change their perception


This statement is so far from the truth that you might as well just go ahead and say that only police should have guns because they are dangerous.

I open carry every day. Most people don't even give me a second look and probably just think I'm a policeman. Even in banks, people don't care. It is a bad rumor that people flip out over open carry.

HexHead
July 29, 2009, 10:19 PM
Well, that might be because you're in Wyoming. ;)

Since TN issues just a carry permit so that we wouldn't have any issues if we inadvertently expose our handgun and just enacted the guns in restaurants that serve alcohol law, I don't have to care if I bulge or print anymore. ;)

2676mc
July 29, 2009, 10:34 PM
This statement is so far from the truth that you might as well just go ahead and say that only police should have guns because they are dangerous.

I open carry every day. Most people don't even give me a second look and probably just think I'm a policeman. Even in banks, people don't care. It is a bad rumor that people flip out over open carry.
You do live in Wyoming. It's not like that for some of us. I happen to live in Northern Maine, so I don't imagine anyone would care here, either, though I've never seen it done. But I used to live in TN like HexHead (Murfreesboro, to be exact) and I can imagine a number of possible reactions, none of them pleasant, when the middle aged soccer mom at the mall catches sight of a gun.

I prefer concealed carry anyway. Less to worry about.

marv
July 29, 2009, 10:36 PM
I just tell them it's my PDD: Personal Defence Device.

ConstitutionCowboy
July 29, 2009, 10:49 PM
I carry at 4:30, outside the waist band. With a cell phone at about 9:00, and with my small but perceptable tummy bulge, it looks like I have a spare tire.

Woody

Flash!
July 29, 2009, 10:55 PM
I do use the Thunderwear holster..... and I had to learn to carry a smaller gun because the bulge was so big..... usually not obvious until I sit down.....

Flea
July 29, 2009, 10:56 PM
I'm in TN, and we have to have a permit to carry open or concealed.

I open carry my 1911 probably more often than I go concealed in the summer. Of course, it all depends on the social setting. Some call for more "discretion" than others...

That being said, I open carry in plain sight of police officers, people with children, and any of your average citizens. I have yet to get more than a passing glance from any of them.:)

I somehow think that our culture isn't as anti-gun as some people would like to believe, at least not in this area of the country.

Dimis
July 29, 2009, 11:04 PM
open carry only is percieved as ok if your well dressed prim and properly shaved otherwise your a scumbag to the publics eyes
i am a heavily tattooed scruffily shaved individual and when i open carry i see alot of people pulling there kids away and shop keepers get nervous

unless you look like an off duty cop your more than likely causing someone some form of nervous tention so for me the OBVIOUS solution is to simply use my CCDW that i paid all that money for in the first place and carry concieled it makes life easier for me and them

and yea i bulge carry sometimes because not all of my pants will allow IWB

30mag
July 29, 2009, 11:12 PM
I want to OC a taser... because I'm under 21.
Anyone know any laws concerning that?

Kind of Blued
July 29, 2009, 11:15 PM
I want to OC a taser... because I'm under 21.
Anyone know any laws concerning that?

Try the legal sub-forum, and perhaps a knife.

30mag
July 29, 2009, 11:15 PM
If I were to carry a firearm, I think I would carry concealed.
Less hassle, I would think.

30mag
July 29, 2009, 11:18 PM
Try the legal sub-forum, and perhaps a knife.
I carry a knife. But knife-fighting is something I'm not so keen on.

I'm not trained, and this website (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html)makes a good case.

Chris42
July 29, 2009, 11:24 PM
I'm from Texas, so no open carry.

If we did have open carry, I wouldn't do it (at least not if I could avoid it).

It is my personal, humble opinion that visibly carrying a gun paints a big target on your back. I think my chances of stopping a bad guy are a lot higher if he thinks that I'm not carrying.

Just my 2 cents.

model of 1905
July 30, 2009, 01:25 AM
If you dont have the "stones" to open carry where it is legal, you don't have the 'stones' to protect yourself in a SD situation and you need to turn in your guns to the local gun grabbers. Grrrrrrrrrr!:fire:

model of 1905
July 30, 2009, 01:36 AM
open carry only is percieved as ok if your well dressed prim and properly shaved otherwise your a scumbag to the publics eyes
i am a heavily tattooed scruffily shaved individual and when i open carry i see alot of people pulling there kids away and shop keepers get nervous

unless you look like an off duty cop your more than likely causing someone some form of nervous tention so for me the OBVIOUS solution is to simply use my CCDW that i paid all that money for in the first place and carry concieled it makes life easier for me and them

and yea i bulge carry sometimes because not all of my pants will allow IWB
I have a full sleeve tatoo on my left arm . It is a work of art by a master artist. It cost me over $6000 and over two years to complete. I open carry very often. It's legal here. I get some looks from the sheeple but I get trouble from none. Generalities suck. You make your decisions, I'll make mine. I am a law abiding citizen that happens to have tatoos and carrys a gun. I dont make my decision as to how I carry based on how others might perceive me. I make my decision based on my rights. Having a tatoo doesnt brand you criminal.

JKimball
July 30, 2009, 01:42 AM
Ken65,

I've been thinking the same thing lately. I've also started bulge carrying. I've never had any indication that anybody has noticed it.

I suppose that if crooks are checking me out, looking for their next victim, they might notice it, and would most likely choose to leave me alone. And I suppose people that carry concealed weapons could probably guess what that bulge is, but I don't have any problem with them knowing I'm carrying.

It also makes it easier to carry my most effective gun in my fastest holster.

Someday I may try open carry. I sometimes think that even then, most people wouldn't even notice I was carrying or have a problem with it if they did. But I'm thinking it would draw more attention to me than I'd like.

Kentucky Windage
July 30, 2009, 01:49 AM
Like so many of these discussions, things are getting a little silly here. Whether you carry openly or not depends on what's legal in your area and what your own preferences are for carrying in a particular environment. That can change as often as you change your clothes or switch from day to night or travel from the city to the woods, etc. It has little to do with who's got the 'stones' to carry openly. From my perspective -- which is one of both surviving for most of my adult life in one of the country's largest urban environments as well as frequently traveling to some of the most remote parts of the U.S. -- I'll stick with concealed carry most of the time (unless hunting) because it gives me a TACTICAL ADVANTAGE in the majority of scenarios under which I would be forced to use a firearm in self defense. Think, people, think...

JKimball
July 30, 2009, 02:04 AM
I think my chances of stopping a bad guy are a lot higher if he thinks that I'm not carrying.

I guess that is true. But it is probably also true that your chances of being attacked in the first place are higher if he thinks that you're not armed.

Kentucky Windage
July 30, 2009, 02:07 AM
And your chances of being shot first may well be higher if certain types of felons KNOW you're armed.

Dimis
July 30, 2009, 11:49 AM
Model of 1905 its not about having the stones its about how uncomfortable one may be in a public setting with a live firearm hanging in the open ALOT of people will become nervous around an openly carried firearm some may even call the police...

im not saying you will get arrested just that now you have to deal with a police officer comeing to whatever location your at and holding your day up just because you decided to open carry

now im glad that you have an extencively beautiful tattooed arm but that too just adds to the "creep" factor for a good chunk of the populous if you wish to open carry im proud of you thats a great thing to stand up for your rights i personaly just do not wish every day to be a hastle with police officers that dont know the laws of my state (Delaware) and citizens that are paranoid that i may be a dangerous individual

the outlook from others is very important in social environments
i personaly know that my tattoos are not of superior quality and i have had police officers stop and talk to me just because some of my tattoos look like they may have gang related meanings now imagin that same scenerio with a gun on my hip

a concerned officer not knowing fully what some tattoos mean sees me on the street with a gun on my hip the conversation goes from "excuse me sir can i speak with you for a moment" to "hey you dont move" and alot more of mine and the officers time waisted not to mention the public embaressment

as for you sd comment id have to call BS on that there are THOUSANDS of people that do not carry outside of there home that are very willing and ready to defend themselves
firearms may be one of the answers to sd but it isnt the only answer think about those that use knives pepper spray tasers stun guns and there bare hands not every protecting act is a shooting situation a gun is a tool your mind and training are your weapon ALWAYS

30mag
July 30, 2009, 12:56 PM
I'm from Texas, so no open carry.

If we did have open carry, I wouldn't do it (at least not if I could avoid it).

It is my personal, humble opinion that visibly carrying a gun paints a big target on your back. I think my chances of stopping a bad guy are a lot higher if he thinks that I'm not carrying.

Just my 2 cents.

I agree.
If someone comes into a place with the intention of shooting it up, it would be to your advantage for him to not know that you are armed. I suppose that some may argue that it is a deterrent... but if he got the drop on you... you're done.

Grey_Mana
July 30, 2009, 01:05 PM
Try the legal sub-forum, and perhaps a knife.
I carry a knife. But knife-fighting is something I'm not so keen on.

I'm not trained, and this website makes a good case.

I think he meant that the laws for carrying tasers are generally together with the laws for carrying knives. If you look up the knife laws, you'll be able to see if and how your state addresses tasers (and brass knuckles, and numchucks).

I think we allow kids to carry tasers with parental permission, and with the caveat that aggressive use of it is a felony (regardless of age).

danprkr
July 30, 2009, 09:31 PM
Thank god!
I thought you were gonna say you got one of them jock-strap Thunderware holsters.


I don't care if he has a Thunderwear thing, I just don't want to see pic a :what:

DoubleTapDrew
July 30, 2009, 11:34 PM
It sounds like the worst of both worlds. You get a slower draw than OC, yet still have the possible "shoot that dude first" problem depending on how telling your bulge is.
Of course while I type this I have a full size 1911 on my hip in an OWB holster under a GOA t-shirt...:o

model of 1905
July 31, 2009, 02:14 AM
You know, a man has to know his own limitations. I don't concern myself with what some LEO may or may not think about the fact that I am open carrying. I have rarely experienced this but when I have, I have a very simple response to over zealous LEO.

"Officer, am I being detained?" Depending on his reply, my next response will be...
"Thanks, have a nice day." or "Under suspicion of what crime?"

You see, it is legal to open carry in my state. There is no exception to the law regarding tatoos. If I feel my rights are being violated, I will take and deal with the circumstances as they arise. What I will NOT do is allow others' fears dictate to me how I go about my daily life in a peaceful, law abiding manner. What you do is of no concern of mine. If you don't have the stones to open carry because you don't want any interruptions to your schedule then by all means don't open carry. Maybe you and the others that you are worried about scaring would feel better if you bought and wore a polo shirt with "SECURITY" in big yellow letters. Now there is some funny stuff, huh? People think it's OK if you got one of those shirts, huh?

Marcus84
July 31, 2009, 08:35 AM
OK I'll admit it, I don't have the stones to open carry. There are benefits to open carrying though. I am coining the phrase "bulge carrying" to refer to intentionally carrying with a bulge on the hip which is OBVIOUSLY a firearm, but which is still legally concealed. I didn't arrive at this intentionally. I happen to carry on my hip sometimes, and several female relatives give me constant grief for the hip bulge. Since I just cannot bring myself to full blown open carry, and after bulge carrying a few times, I lost my shame of it. So many people flip out at open carrying that this essentially prevents that (99% of the time) while still essentially carrying openly. My shirt becomes a type of veil that keeps the emotional types from flipping out. Carrying at the small of my back is ultra uncomfortable. Carrying inside the waistband is ultra uncomfortable, plus it requires the use of larger pants. I guess I've just gotten too old and too tired of completely catering to the fears of others. I would prefer to carry fully openly, but I've had to accept that there are just too many people who view it as sticking your gun in their face and I cannot change their perception, SO, I believe that "bulge carrying" solves this.

Then shouldn't you be open carrying? :confused:

Marcus84
July 31, 2009, 08:37 AM
have a full sleeve tatoo on my left arm . It is a work of art by a master artist. It cost me over $6000 and over two years to complete.

:what: Pic of tat?

FMF
July 31, 2009, 10:33 AM
have a full sleeve tatoo on my left arm . It is a work of art by a master artist. It cost me over $6000 and over two years to complete.

okay, you set the bait and I bit....I gotta see this tattoo or I won't be able sleep tonight. I love full sleeve tattoos.

Dimis
July 31, 2009, 11:12 AM
1905 i agree with everything your saying for you

ive walked both sides of this fence seeing as this IS an open carry state ive done it alot before my CCDW and i got alot more attention than i wanted

i guess it falls down to two different walks of life

LOUD and proud

or

speak softly and carry a big stick

HexHead
July 31, 2009, 11:19 AM
and I can imagine a number of possible reactions, none of them pleasant, when the middle aged soccer mom at the mall catches sight of a gun.

Boy, you got that right. You should have seen the furor by the left wing liberal loons about the carry in restaurants bill and the parks bill.

I think a lot of the open carry question hinges on where you live. In the more rural, gun friendly areas you're far less likely to get hassled than in an area inundated with liberals like the guy above in Delaware. There are parts of TN here I wouldn't think twice about open carrying. But in Nashville, or Murfreesboro you can expect the cops to get the "man with a gun" call.

Coyote3855
July 31, 2009, 12:10 PM
I think it's about personal choice, not about "stones." You want to open carry, be my guest. Don't draw any conclusions about my courage, preparedness, focus, or masculinity if I choose a different option.

30mag
July 31, 2009, 12:13 PM
"Walk softly and carry a big stick." is an excellent justification of my philosophy.
OC has it's place...

BornAgainBullseye
July 31, 2009, 12:29 PM
I don't carry open because I don't want to let a perspective scumbag know who to bust a cap at first. However O.C is legal here in Georgia I have only seen two people actually doing it, and they looked like the Georgia equilivent of a Texas BBQ or Church gun. My 5 inch 1911 government sits IWB at 4 oclock and on a few occasions my shirt has hung over the grip. No biggie!!! If somebody sees it, I don't care. However when I cross the border to the semi liberal Tallahassee, Florida I don't carry my 1911 unless it is covered by winter clothing. I usually have my Charter Arms undercover loaded with dead soft lead 158gr hollow points in the front right pocket of some cargo shorts or something... Usually forget it is there....

SharpsDressedMan
July 31, 2009, 03:15 PM
"Did I ever tell you about my crotch holster? Not fast to draw, but it gets me a lot of dates......."

LaVere
July 31, 2009, 04:39 PM
Michigan is a open carry state and a shall issue CPL. I have my CPL but in this warm weather I often open carry. I would not care if it was tucked under a Tee shirt and it buldged out. It is still concealed carry in Michigan.
That is not to say some local police officer may not harrass you. Know your own state rules and follow them.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2511/3776151738_bbec26964f.jpg

A Judge near Detroit recently said that this was concealed.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2624/3775362213_f5435a3d28_o.jpg

TexasBill
July 31, 2009, 05:48 PM
In Texas, no printing means no printing. If a citizen sees your piece or "bulge" and decides to make an issue of it, you're in trouble unless the cop is very understanding. And considering what we went through with our district attorneys when the legislature modified the "travel" law (a number of them ignored it and told officers in their counties to make arrests anyway), I wouldn't want to count on that.

I wish Texas would allow open carry. I figure it improves my chances of not having to mess with a bad guy at all.

Gryffydd
July 31, 2009, 06:03 PM
Printing is not legal in all states, in some states printing is considered open carry and you can get in big trouble for it.
Which ones? Links to the state statutes?

TexasRifleman
July 31, 2009, 06:49 PM
In Texas, no printing means no printing. If a citizen sees your piece or "bulge" and decides to make an issue of it, you're in trouble unless the cop is very understanding.

Texas law doesn't say anything about "printing" or anything like that at all. Texas law just says:

Sec. 46.035. UNLAWFUL CARRYING OF HANDGUN BY LICENSE HOLDER.

(a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder carries a handgun on or about the license holder's person under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, and intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.


Accidental exposure, or simply having an bulge under clothing are not crimes. Intent to show a weapon would be part of the question. You may very well run into some cop with a bad attitude but I think you will have a hard time finding examples of carriers charged with this. It just doesn't come up that often.

model of 1905
July 31, 2009, 10:09 PM
okay, you set the bait and I bit....I gotta see this tattoo or I won't be able sleep tonight. I love full sleeve tattoos.
Fine, the wife said she would help me after dinner.;)

lions
July 31, 2009, 11:05 PM
Texas law doesn't say anything about "printing" or anything like that at all.
...intentionally fails to conceal the handgun.

Is it possible that it could be decided that a handgun that is obviously and constantly "printing" is not concealed? From there they could try to make an argument that because you are allowing it to obviously and constantly "print" that you are (by their interpretation) intentionally failing to conceal the handgun.

Just curious, I guess after reading some of brady's crap today my mind is used to underhanded misinterpretations and intentionally twisting words.:rolleyes:

model of 1905
July 31, 2009, 11:25 PM
102513102511102509












And there you go.

GigaBuist
July 31, 2009, 11:40 PM
That is not to say some local police officer may not harrass you.

Happened in Grand Haven, Michigan about a year ago I think. Some guy was open carrying and got arrested for it. Case was later thrown out, not even sure if he was officially charged with anything.

Pretty surprising because the county prosecutor (Ottawa county) requires everybody that gets a CPL to appear before the gun board before they issue the license. He doesn't like people carrying weapons, but the law is the law.

LibShooter
July 31, 2009, 11:58 PM
I don't open carry because it makes me feel self conscious and uncomfortable.

But luckily as an HCP holder in Tennessee, I don't have to obsess over printing. I usually pocket carry(Bulge Carry?) a J-frame snubbie. Now my new Pachmayr grips peak out of my pocket. At first that freaked me out. Now I realize nobody notices or cares. Even my wife doesn't notice. She asks if I'm carrying almost every time we go out.

Would a peak at a Pachmyer under my untucked shirt be considered brandishing in other states?

model of 1905
August 1, 2009, 12:19 AM
I don't open carry because it makes me feel self conscious and uncomfortable.

But luckily as an HCP holder in Tennessee, I don't have to obsess over printing. I usually pocket carry(Bulge Carry?) a J-frame snubbie. Now my new Pachmayr grips peak out of my pocket. At first that freaked me out. Now I realize nobody notices or cares. Even my wife doesn't notice. She asks if I'm carrying almost every time we go out.

Would a peak at a Pachmyer under my untucked shirt be considered brandishing in other states?
My wife doesn't ask any more, she knows, whether it is obvious or not and she stays on my off side.:D

Tiomoid
August 1, 2009, 01:51 AM
I didn't read the whole thread. To many comments, but for those of you who CAN open carry and try to hate on those of us who can't, or don't wish too. Open carry, while nice, DOES PAINT A HUGE TARGET ON YOUR BACK in a serious situation. You will most likely be the bad guys first target...think it threw.

model of 1905
August 1, 2009, 02:05 AM
I have thought it through thoroughly. Open carry is a right, a right unused is a right soon lost. Actually if you think it through you will realize that it generally will deter a threat as opposed to putting a "target on your back". There are no guarantees in life. No one can say that your position or mine is right. I don't "hate on" anybody for choosing not to open carry. What I hate is people expressing opinions on open carrying when they have seldom if ever done it. I open carry often. If you don't or haven't, then your opinion or others' like you are better kept to yourselves. It carries no weight if you get my gist.

30mag
August 1, 2009, 12:11 PM
Actually if you think it through you will realize that it generally will deter a threat as opposed to putting a "target on your back".

Generally, possibly. But I'm not worried about generally. Generally, people don't run around gunning down people.
I would still rather CC (in most cases) than OC. It'd be nice to strap it on before going to the range and not have to worry about it. Stop in a gas station and grab a drink, or whatever.
OC has its place.

TexasBill
August 1, 2009, 06:43 PM
Texas law doesn't say anything about "printing" or anything like that at all. Texas law just says:




Accidental exposure, or simply having an bulge under clothing are not crimes. Intent to show a weapon would be part of the question. You may very well run into some cop with a bad attitude but I think you will have a hard time finding examples of carriers charged with this. It just doesn't come up that often.
The problem is the law doesn't define "conceal" clearly enough for some Texas DAs who have already shown they are prone to "interpreting" the law (check out the controversy that followed the legislature's reinterpretation of "traveling"), which means the LEOs in their counties may get you for any trace of the firearm being visible, i.e. bulging, or, if you're lucky, they might say it just needs to be covered up so the firearm itself isn't visible. It's all still subjective.

I do know of one incident in Houston where a CHL holder almost got arrested when a lady at a supermarket called the police because she "thought" he might be carrying a gun. She never actually saw any part of the firearm, but the guy was packing and the cops hassled him for printing. Our former DA was a real horse's behind about the traveling law change as well; told the troops to ignore it and continue to enforce the old definition even though the cases would be thrown out. Fortunately he got busted for ethics over some pornographic e-mails. In any event, the legislature had to go back and re-redefine the traveling standards to end the abuse.

Texas really needs to put on its big boy pants and pass open carry legislation. Summers are too darn hot down here to worry about concealed carry. Of course, I have to admit the current situation is better than the old "thou shalt not carry under any circumstances" with no permits at all.

30mag
August 1, 2009, 06:46 PM
Texas really needs to put on its big boy pants and pass open carry legislation. Summers are too darn hot down here to worry about concealed carry. Of course, I have to admit the current situation is better than the old "thou shalt not carry under any circumstances" with no permits at all.
I agree.

TexasRifleman
August 1, 2009, 06:53 PM
I do know of one incident in Houston where a CHL holder almost got arrested when a lady at a supermarket called the police because she "thought" he might be carrying a gun. She never actually saw any part of the firearm, but the guy was packing and the cops hassled him for printing.

Right, cops with bad attitudes, but no actual arrests for bulges or printing. I've never heard of a single charge actually filed for it in Texas. Would love to see one if it's actually happened. It very well might have, but I've never seen anything on it.

A cop spotted MY carry gun once at a grocery store when I bent over to pick up something from a bottom shelf. All he did was walk up real close and whisper "your gun is visible when you bend over, might keep that in mind" and he walked off. Didn't even ask me for ID.

This one Houston DA, that's not even in office anymore, made people so afraid of everything it's just sad.

LRaccuracy
August 1, 2009, 07:24 PM
When I am carrying a weapon I don't want others to know that I am.

Dr_2_B
August 1, 2009, 09:04 PM
In these days of smart phones, PDAs, iPods, etc. the idea that a bulge is a gun won't even enter most people's heads

+1. I'd do it.

TexasBill
August 1, 2009, 09:24 PM
Right, cops with bad attitudes, but no actual arrests for bulges or printing. I've never heard of a single charge actually filed for it in Texas. Would love to see one if it's actually happened. It very well might have, but I've never seen anything on it.

A cop spotted MY carry gun once at a grocery store when I bent over to pick up something from a bottom shelf. All he did was walk up real close and whisper "your gun is visible when you bend over, might keep that in mind" and he walked off. Didn't even ask me for ID.

This one Houston DA, that's not even in office anymore, made people so afraid of everything it's just sad.
Unfortunately, the Harris County DA sets the pace for an awful lot of agencies and is one of the most influential DAs in the state. And the cop's actions don't mean he had a bad attitude; he could just have been following the policies he was given.

Carl
August 1, 2009, 10:18 PM
I CC for tactical reasons, not because I'm afraid of what others might think or do. It's all for the element of surprise if a situation arises where I'll need to defend my life or that of another. The threat won't see it coming, and it raises my chances of properly succeeding.

With that said, with all the stuff that people wear these days, I've bulged carried in Meijers with the plastic holster that comes with the gun(haven't bought a proper leather holster yet but wanted to get a head start on getting used to carrying it around), and nobody noticed. Of course, being new to carrying a gun, I feel as if everyone notices and everyone is looking at me, but nobody notices, not a glance. My girlfriend didn't even notice one day when I was OCing around the house until a half hour passed and she saw it on my hip when I leaned over towards her on the couch. Normal every day people are oblivious to their surroundings.

And with that said, people that might be looking for an armed individual to possibly scope out a situation (robbery, etc) will definitely notice someone that's OCing.

Bishop.357
August 2, 2009, 06:18 AM
I open-carry on a regluar basis except when I'm in a place where it whould make others uncomfortable,then I just pull my shirt down over it;I'm a big guy; 6' 3" and 240lbs,so its not too hard for me to conceal whatever I happen to be carryin' on any givin day.

TexasRifleman
August 2, 2009, 09:06 AM
Unfortunately, the Harris County DA sets the pace for an awful lot of agencies and is one of the most influential DAs in the state.

I understand that, but the Harris County DA that did those things is not in office. In fact, he lost his job for ethics violations. Not very influential.....

On February 15, 2008, Rosenthal resigned shortly after a lawsuit was filed by attorney Lloyd Kelley, seeking to remove Rosenthal from office on the grounds of official misconduct, incompetency or intoxication.

Pat Lykos (Republican) is now the Harris County District Attorney and so far she has done none of this nonsense, so there is nothing to be gained by fearmongering talk of what an ex-DA criminal may have done 2 plus years ago.

Logos
August 2, 2009, 10:49 PM
.

If I see a bulge I just feel sorry for the poor bastard......I figure it's probably a colostomy bag.

;)

essayons21
August 2, 2009, 11:24 PM
Fortunately, living an open carry state, I can bulge carry. I've noticed that even when I do a horrible job of concealing, the majority of sheeple will never notice. Hell even when I open carry, 90% don't even notice the 1911 on my hip.

The people that do notice, LEOs, gunnies, and maybe a few observant criminals, I don't mind. Most criminals are cowards and will pick a softer target, so the bulge under my shirt acts as a deterrent. Also, in an invasion style crime in a public area, the criminals tend to be very focused on their intended targets, and to my knowledge there has never been an instance of a criminal shooting the OC'er first.

On the other hand there are a few examples of criminals completely ignoring the OCer, and winding up on the losing end.

Just recently, in my hometown, a would be murderer/robber was stopped (for good) by an OC'er wearing a 7 1/2"(!) bbl single-action revolver in a western drop-leg rig. This guy was standing a few yards from the clerk who was shot, in the robbers line of sight, yet he still did not notice the HUGE gun on the OC'ers leg until he started recieving return fire.

http://opencarry.mywowbb.com/forum54/28482.html

I understand that the plural of antecdote is not data, but until I see an argument for the tactical advantage of deep concealment more compelling than the theories of internet commandos, I will continue carrying as I see fit.

Logos
August 2, 2009, 11:46 PM
I suppose there are also a few stories of how an open-carry proponent took one in the back of the head because some guys thought it would be nice to steal his gun.

Like many things.....it all depends.

essayons21
August 2, 2009, 11:49 PM
I suppose there are also a few stories of how an open-carry proponent took one in the back of the head because some guys thought it would be nice to steal his gun.

Like many things.....it all depends.

Being very tuned-in to self-defense and OC news stories, I have never come across an example anything like this. Not saying it couldn't or won't happen, just I don't know of any instance.

Do you have an example you could share with us?

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:05 AM
No, just seeing it as a likely outcome.

If more people openly carried there would probably be plenty of such stories. In reality, actual open carry is pretty much non-existent except in a few isolated rural areas where it is seen mostly by coyotes.

In Minnesota I have never seen a single person open carry in my life.....not one. I don't expect it's greatly different most other places.

Just came back from a trip through North and South Dakota in rural areas and didn't see a single one there either. Lots of cowboy boots......no gun belts.

kyo
August 3, 2009, 12:22 AM
I want to share some Open carry thoughts here. I carry a simplyrugged leather brand belt/holster, with a buckler on the front. My carry weapon is a P345 with the SS slide. I carry at 4 o'clock. right behind the hip above my butt. Its comfortable in the car, its comfortable when I walk, sit, anywhere. I can do IWB or OWB, but I like IWB so if I want to wear a tank top and conceal it, its easy. I am young, 24 and stand at a slim 5'10"
The first time I open carried was into a gas station. I live in GA btw. There are no open carry laws here. I can legally open carry without a holster even, only need a holster for concealed, but I use my rig all the time. boy was I nervous. I walked in and I tried to not really look at people because I was nervous. I had a though then, that I am not a criminal, and I am not doing anything illegal. Worst thing that happened was that some guy was looking at me when I came up behind him in line to pay and leave. I then went to Publix where I went shopping and ran into 2 kids with a mom shopping beside me. The kids were swarming around me, meowing like kids. So I took out my phone and showed them my puppy. Small talk with the kids/lady. Smiles around.

Why do I really open carry? Well, because I don't feel line wearing big baggy clothes sometimes. Sometimes I feel like the tank top. Sometimes I feel like wearing a tucked shirt in. I did this a few days ago at Publix. Waved to an officer in the process, said hi, and he just kept on goin in side the store. No one said anything to me, or didn't really look weird at me. Maybe 2-3 people were wondering what was up. I was wearing jeans and a tucked in black short sleeve shirt.

Whats the point of the story? Well, people are very nice to me when I have a gun. I don't think its because of the gun, I think its because they know that I am around with a gun. I don't open carry because I want to feel gangster. I open carry because I want people to know that I am a young man who is capable of being responsible with a firearm in public, and that GA is a great place to exercise my rights as a citizen. The message that I send when I walk around with my 45 is that I am courteous, respectful, thoughtful, and most of all prepared. I am not sure what I am to the "bad" guys.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:27 AM
Sooner or later, some bad guys will see you as a source for a free gun.

essayons21
August 3, 2009, 12:37 AM
No, just seeing it as a likely outcome.

If more people openly carried there would probably be plenty of such stories. In reality, actual open carry is pretty much non-existent except in a few isolated rural areas where it is seen mostly by coyotes.

In Minnesota I have never seen a single person open carry in my life.....not one. I don't expect it's greatly different most other places.




Have you ever been over to OCDO.org? While OC is not exactly common, it is pretty much accepted in most parts of Virginia, including cities. Most people and LEOs don't even bat an eye when they see someone OCing. Regional OC dinners attract between 25-100 participants monthly, and are always growing.

Hardly "non-existant" down here. VA probably has the highest rate of OC, and the only self-defense incidents have resulted in the OC'er coming out on top. And its not anything new... the shooter in the story I linked wasn't even a member at OCDO.

Sooner or later, some bad guys will see you as a source for a free gun.

They already see me as source for a free wallet/watch/car/cellphone... whats your point?

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:42 AM
I hear a lot of big talk about open carry......I can only relate what I see.....or in this case, never see.

Wallets, watches, cars and cellphones are not as attractive as a gun.....that's the point.

kyo
August 3, 2009, 01:00 AM
I don't think anyone is stupid enough to try to pull my gun out of my holster.

rhenriksen
August 3, 2009, 01:21 AM
"I understand that the plural of anecdote is not data..."

That is one nice phrase! I'll have to remember that.

I live in Texas. I've had my CHL all of 4 days now. I don't know how often I'd open carry, ***if given permission to have the choice***, but I'd still like to be free to make that choice myself.

Gryffydd
August 3, 2009, 02:27 AM
Wallets, watches, cars and cellphones are not as attractive as a gun.....that's the point.
Nor do they give you the means of keeping themselves. Your watch is not a threat to them. Your gun is. There are thousands of people they could rob that won't be carrying guns. They'll just wait 5 minutes and get the next person who comes along.

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 3, 2009, 02:34 AM
I'd prefer a well concealed cary. Not open. Not "bulged." Well concealed, regardless of if my state allowed open carry.

Why? I don't want everyone to know I have a gun on me. I want the wrong person to find out.

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 08:47 AM
Sooner or later, some bad guys will see you as a source for a free gun.

Again with this claim, and of course when you are asked to show where it has ever actually happened you can't, claiming only "well it will, but it doesn't because no one open carries".

In reality, actual open carry is pretty much non-existent except in a few isolated rural areas where it is seen mostly by coyotes.

Which is clearly false. OC is pretty common in many states, despite your claim that it only happens in rural areas.

Facts vs fear mongering.

Here's a thread with pictures from a recent OC picnic in Virginia, just last weekend.

Nope, OSC never happens. Only in the woods huh?

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=466154

Interesting that the subject of open carry brings up more fear mongering from supposed "pro gun" people than it does from the anti's.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 11:04 AM
OC is pretty common in many states, despite your claim that it only happens in rural areas.

Talk about open carry is pretty common in internet forums.

Actual open carry? I never see it in normal day to day activities. At all.

Open carry parties? Yes, I've heard of them. They are special events......and they don't change the fact that I never see anybody openly carrying in normal day to day activities.

If as many people open carried as is claimed on internet forums we'd see them every day.

We don't.

They don't.

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 11:08 AM
If as many people open carried as is claimed on internet forums we'd see them every day.

We don't.

They don't.

They do, you just don't live where it's common, or you live around people like you that some how either fear it, or avoid it for some other reason.
Since you don't list your state it's hard to tell.

As you admitted in the other thread where you are bashing those that open carry, you don't know much about it for sure.

Just be open and honest. You don't like OC, you disagree with it and feel like it's bad for 2A. That's fine.

But don't make up statistics and supposed dangers to those that OC unless you have some facts behind you.

And you don't.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 11:45 AM
The fact is: I don't see any open carry.

Never have.

The fact is: I read about incidents where citizens have called the cops about open carry and the person with the gun has been checked out by the police (who already have more than enough to do).

Thus I conclude that open carry is rare but does cause problems where it is practiced.

Why do people call the police when they see someone with a gun?

Because they are afraid it's a kook who is going to start shooting a bunch of people.

I understand how they feel, given the number of incidents where people have shot up shopping centers, schools and fast food places.

Those are the facts.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 11:48 AM
One more fact.

If I see somebody open carrying......I WILL call the cops and have him checked out.

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 11:50 AM
The fact is: I don't see any open carry.

Never have.

Not knowing where you live, that doesn't mean much. Is it legal where you are?

I live in Texas so I never see it here.

I do see it all over Arizona when I go there, in fact I carry openly every time I go to Arizona and no one ever seems to notice.

Our personal feelings and observations on this don't count for much though, we have to look at what actually happens nationwide.

When we do that, there isn't much out there to support the idea that OC is a major disruption, that is causes harm to the pro 2A movement, or frankly that the "average Joe" even notices that it's going on.

It comes up on gun forums on the Internet, but there seems to be VERY little in the media about it. If it was a real problem it would seem that the anti media would be all over it.

dirt_j00
August 3, 2009, 12:09 PM
One more fact.

If I see somebody open carrying......I WILL call the cops and have him checked out.

Thank you for being anti. <sarcasm>

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:10 PM
Not anti.......just a good citizen who has common sense.

dirt_j00
August 3, 2009, 12:12 PM
Logos Common Sense:

Call the cops when you see someone going about their normal life engaging in legal activities.

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 12:13 PM
Not anti.......just a good citizen who has common sense.


Common sense would indicate that your feelings are based on some kind of factual evidence. You have none, at all.

So you can't say that it's "common sense" if what you state goes against pretty much all the factual evidence.

What you feel is "gut feeling" or "fear" or whatever you want to call it, but it cannot be common sense, by definition.

At least be honest or this is all a waste of time.

We are all more than happy to debate this based on some kind of reality, but so far I have seen none from those claiming OC causes harm.

If it does, show some evidence.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:14 PM
And yes, it is legal where I live.

Yes, it rarely happens and the person is almost invariably reported to the police and checked out.

It's the responsible thing to do in today's world.

Those are the facts.

Gryffydd
August 3, 2009, 12:17 PM
Not anti.......just a good citizen who has common sense.
More like a nosy busybody with an irrational fear of armed people.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:19 PM
Logos Common Sense:

Call the cops when you see someone going about their normal life engaging in legal activities.

No, call the cops when you see a man carrying a gun in a public place.

He may be a terrorist. He may be a nut. He may intend to shoot up a shopping center.

Common sense.

dirt_j00
August 3, 2009, 12:20 PM
The "responsible thing to do in today's world" is for people to be able to adequately defend themselves from criminals, without worrying about being stabbed in the back by other gunnies.

Gryffydd
August 3, 2009, 12:21 PM
No, call the cops when you see a man carrying a gun in a public place.
Which is a legal activity...

He may be a terrorist. He may be a nut. He may intend to shoot up a shopping center.
Every time somebody gets into a car they may run over a stroller in a cross walk. They may plow into a school bus. If you go around and worry about what people may do all the time you've got a problem. Carrying a gun is as legal as driving a car (more so, actually). What makes it your business that somebody is exercising their right?

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:23 PM
Not anti.......just a good citizen who has common sense.
More like a nosy busybody with an irrational fear of armed people.


Wrong again.....in today's world, a man carrying a gun in a public place is a valid reason for calling the cops. A RATIONAL concern and a obvious need for the professionals to check out.

He could be a terrorist or a nut who lost his job and decides to shoot up a shopping center......this has been happening more and more often in recent years.

Common sense.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:25 PM
Every time somebody gets into a car they may run over a stroller in a cross walk.

Ah, but driving a car is a normal part of everyday life......but a man openly displaying a gun in a public place is not.

And never will be.

BossHaug
August 3, 2009, 12:26 PM
Here in Show Low, Arizona, I see people open carrying all the time. They carry in restaurants, grocery stores, the car wash, Wal-Mart (gosh!). Nobody cares. Nobody calls the police. I CCW all the time, and sometimes when I carry my 1911 outside the belt covered with a shirt, it is visible. Nobody cares about that either. We don't call the police everytime we see a citizen going about his legal business. When I visit the valley (Phoenix metropoliton area), I see OC there too. No big deal.

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 12:28 PM
Wrong again.....in today's world, a man carrying a gun in a public place is a valid reason for calling the cops. A RATIONAL concern and a obvious need for the professionals to check out.

He could be a terrorist or a nut who lost his job and decides to shoot up a shopping center......this has been happening more and more often in recent years.

Common sense.

At least we finally have it out in the open.

You offer no facts, but you offer "common sense" gun control. We know where that line of thinking originates. "Common sense" to you means any time that guns are available to private citizens it's cause for concern and a need to involve law enforcement.

At least we know what we're dealing with now. This is the standard "anti" mantra.

Gryffydd
August 3, 2009, 12:29 PM
Ah, but driving a car is a normal part of everyday life......but a man openly displaying a gun in a public place is not.

It isnt'? Weird.

http://www.amypeterman.com/images/memorial/police-officer.jpg
The uniform is nothing but clothes, the career is nothing but a job.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:34 PM
"Common sense" to you means any time that guns are available to private citizens it's cause for concern and a need to involve law enforcement.

You obviously don't have a clue what common sense means to me.

dirt_j00
August 3, 2009, 12:35 PM
Logos: you appear to support making open carry illegal. Is this true?

Also, please respond to BossHaug's post.

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 12:35 PM
You obviously don't have a clue what common sense means to me

No, and I'm not sure you do either. You say that it's "common sense" for people to react to the sight of a gun with fear.

You're right, I don't have a clue why anyone would think that.

Kwanger
August 3, 2009, 12:36 PM
To my mind, 'Bulge Carrying' is actually the worst of both worlds, as it lacks the tactical suprise element of fully concealed, yet it makes your weapon less accessible then full open carry.

I suppose it might have its place in a casual kind of way, but definately not the best of both worlds IMO.

essayons21
August 3, 2009, 12:39 PM
My next question was to ask how many cops are shot every year, just to get a free gun. How many times do you call the cops if you see a plainclothes narcotics officer? Staff LEOs around here OC plainclothes all the time, and the only time you might be able to tell the difference is if they have a small badge clipped to their belt. Hate to tell you this, but I could go out today and have a nice shiney badge to clip to my belt and noone would know the difference. You going to call the cops everytime you see a cop now?

I don't know what society is like way up there in the north, nor do I wish to. But don't force your isolated regional attitude and stigma on large swaths of the country where citizens still enjoy basic freedoms.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:41 PM
Here in Show Low, Arizona, I see people open carrying all the time. They carry in restaurants, grocery stores, the car wash, Wal-Mart (gosh!). Nobody cares. Nobody calls the police. I CCW all the time, and sometimes when I carry my 1911 outside the belt covered with a shirt, it is visible. Nobody cares about that either. We don't call the police everytime we see a citizen going about his legal business. When I visit the valley (Phoenix metropoliton area), I see OC there too. No big deal.

More internet forum talk. I hear it all the time. Doesn't mean much to me.

I don't see ANYBODY open carrying.

Never have.

Maybe it's different in some isolated places, but I haven't seen any evidence of it.

Vern Humphrey
August 3, 2009, 12:42 PM
You obviously don't have a clue what common sense means to me.
That's because you live in your own world.

Here are two hints:

1. If everone disagrees with your, your sense isn't common.

2. And therefore it isn't sense.

dirt_j00
August 3, 2009, 12:43 PM
Now answer my other question.

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 12:43 PM
More internet forum talk. I hear it all the time. Doesn't mean much to me.

I don't see ANYBODY open carryin

So if you don't see it, it must not exist.

Yet you are perfectly happy to make claims that IF you DO open carry, that all kinds of bad things will happen. You don't see that either, but you believe it.

You don't find any contradiction there?

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:44 PM
Logos: you appear to support making open carry illegal. Is this true?

Also, please respond to BossHaug's post.

I already did.

And if open carry becomes a problem, I have NO DOUBT that it will become illegal.

Fine with me.

Our actions have consequences.

Gryffydd
August 3, 2009, 12:44 PM
And why is it again that what you see where you live is somehow how you expect it to be everywhere else? Do you honestly think these people are making up the fact that open carry is fairly common where they live? Where do YOU live again?

OK, now that I'm just as guilty as everyone else...


http://lh5.ggpht.com/carlos57775/SCobc6EL_hI/AAAAAAAABys/RG0y66Z3ZDY/s288/Don't%20feed%20the%20troll.jpg

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:47 PM
How many times do you call the cops if you see a plainclothes narcotics officer?

Apparently, our local non-uniformed narcotics officers are bright enough not to openly show their guns and rile up the populace.

Like I said several times now......I don't see any open carry here.

dirt_j00
August 3, 2009, 12:47 PM
Ok, so you support making open carry illegal. What is your basis for this? Has there been a rash of OCers commiting crimes?

And if open carry becomes a problem... What do you mean by this? Folks like you calling the cops on people who have done nothing illegal?

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:50 PM
So if you don't see it, it must not exist.

Yet you are perfectly happy to make claims that IF you DO open carry, that all kinds of bad things will happen. You don't see that either, but you believe it.

You don't find any contradiction there?

No, I don't.

I have read about incidents in my state where people have open carried and the police were called. Go to Twin Cities Carry forum and search it......I'm sure you'll find some.

But I've never seen anybody open carry.

BossHaug
August 3, 2009, 12:50 PM
Well, my daddy used to tell me: Son, don't wrestle with a pig...you both get dirty, and the pig likes it. If Logos thinks I'm a liar, he is welcome to his opinion of me, and I am entitled to my own opinion of him. I have better things to do today than argue with this troll.

Gryffydd
August 3, 2009, 12:52 PM
our local non-uniformed narcotics officers are bright enough not to openly show their guns and rile up the populace.
Yeah, nothing like police officers carrying sidearms to rile up the populace... :rolleyes:Where do you live again?

Dang, I did it again.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:53 PM
so you support making open carry illegal. What is your basis for this? Has there been a rash of OCers commiting crimes?

If open carry causes problems, it WILL undoubtedly be made illegal.

Somebody here said it's already illegal in Texas. Why? I bet they figure it would cause problems.

Common sense.

dirt_j00
August 3, 2009, 12:55 PM
Again, answer the 2nd question. What are you calling a problem?

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:55 PM
If Logos thinks I'm a liar, he is welcome to his opinion of me, and I am entitled to my own opinion of him.

I didn't say you are a liar. Try to stick to the facts.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:56 PM
What are you calling a problem?

It becomes a problem when police get too many calls to check out "the man with the gun."

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 12:56 PM
omebody here said it's already illegal in Texas. Why? I bet they figure it would cause problems.


Open carry in Texas, like most gun laws, are racist in their beginnings.

Few of them had anything to do with protecting the public good. Most of them had to do with keeping former slaves unarmed.

Again, you are too ill informed on the topic of gun control to be debating it. You are going on feelings, and that doesn't work very well against facts.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 12:59 PM
Explain how the Texas law is racist, please.

dirt_j00
August 3, 2009, 01:00 PM
OK, we've connected the dots.

Open carry should be illegal because it would unduly burden LE due to MWAG calls.

Wow. Lets give up our rights to appease the soccer moms, antis, and LE.

No thanks.

But thanks for being honest.

Gryffydd
August 3, 2009, 01:03 PM
Explain how the Texas law is racist, please.
Skipped a few history classes eh?

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 01:08 PM
Explain how the Texas law is racist, please.

Wow. You have to be kidding right?

All gun laws in the United States have racist beginnings. I'll assume 2 things here;

1) that you actually care to find out and
2) that you know how to use Google.

In the meantime, I'll copy this from some research on the topic to get you some basics on the background:

Racist arms laws predate the establishment of the United States. Starting in 1751, the French Black Code required Louisiana colonists to stop any blacks, and if necessary, beat "any black carrying any potential weapon, such as a cane." If a black refused to stop on demand, and was on horseback, the colonist was authorized to "shoot to kill.

For Texas specifically:

One especially absurd example, and one that includes strong evidence of the racist intentions behind gun control laws, is Texas.

In Cockrum v. State (1859), the Texas Supreme Court had recognized that there was a right to carry defensive arms, and that this right was protected under both the Second Amendment, and section 13 of the Texas Bill of Rights. The outer limit of the state's authority (in this case, attempting to discourage the carrying of Bowie knives), was that it could provide an enhanced penalty for manslaughters committed with Bowie knives. [30] Yet, by 1872, the Texas Supreme Court denied that there was any right to carry any weapon for self-defense under either the state or federal constitutions -- and made no attempt to explain or justify why the Cockrum decision was no longer valid.

In this, the Court said:

The law under consideration has been attacked upon the ground that it was contrary to public policy, and deprived the people of the necessary means of self- defense; that it was an innovation upon the customs and habits of the people, to which they would not peaceably submit... We will not say to what extent the early customs and habits of the people of this state should be respected and accommodated, where they may come in conflict with the ideas of intelligent and well-meaning legislators. A portion of our system of laws, as well as our public morality, is derived from a people the most peculiar perhaps of any other in the history and derivation of its own system. Spain, at different periods of the world, was dominated over by the Carthagenians, the Romans, the Vandals, the Snovi, the Allani, the Visigoths, and Arabs; and to this day there are found in the Spanish codes traces of the laws and customs of each of these nations blended together in a system by no means to be compared with the sound philosophy and pure morality of the common law.

And a statement from a Florida court speaking about handguns in automobiles:

I know something of the history of this legislation. The original Act of 1893 was passed when there was a great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here for the purpose of working in turpentine and lumber camps. The same condition existed when the Act was amended in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose of disarming the negro laborers and to thereby reduce the unlawful homicides that were prevalent in turpentine and saw-mill camps and to give the white citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling of security. The statute was never intended to be applied to the white population and in practice has never been so applied.


Pro Tip: Notice how when you challenge a statement I make, I immediately back it up with references to other sources to back it up?

Try it sometime....

Logos
August 3, 2009, 01:12 PM
How does that pertain to the Texas law against open carry, please.

I'm just trying to understand you.

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 01:22 PM
How does that pertain to the Texas law against open carry, please.

All gun laws are racist in origin. All of them.

You may not believe it, you may wish it were otherwise, but it is true.

The original US gun law simply says "shall not be infringed". The states are the ones that added restrictions first, and all of them are race based.

Carl
August 3, 2009, 01:22 PM
Can we get back on topic before it gets locked? Bulge carry is not OC, so let's drop it. One of you guys can beat a dead horse about the good and bad things that come with OCing in a new thread. Let's keep this one about bulge carry.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 01:23 PM
...............

Logos
August 3, 2009, 01:25 PM
Open carry should be illegal because it would unduly burden LE due to MWAG calls.

Yes, if it does, it probably will.

No doubt that's why it's illegal in Texas......with large urban areas involved, I'm sure they saw it as a can of worms they just didn't want to open up.

The suggestion (as has been posted here earlier) that it was for racist motives is ludicrous.

It's purely common sense and I agree with it.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 01:28 PM
As long as we're really discussing "bulge carry," don't many places have penalties for incompetent concealment?

There seems to be a fine line between open carry and incompetent concealment.

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 01:31 PM
As long as we're really discussing "bulge carry," don't many places have penalties for incompetent concealment?

As already discussed earlier in the thread, most states don't define a "bulge" as being a crime. Most states seem to have wording to the effect that "intentional failure to conceal" is the problem.

It would seem to me that an unidentifiable bulge is "concealed". That's really the only debatable thing, what is the actual definition of "concealed".

How does one know the bulge is a gun and not a cell phone or insulin pump?

People talk about "printing" but that is kind of an out there made up term. You won't find that codified in law in any state that I am aware of.

If the bulge is clearly without a doubt a gun then that's probably not "concealed", but where is the line?

Is the irrational fear of guns so out of control that anyone with a bump under their clothing is now a suspect?

You allow the cops to start searching anyone with an unidentifiable bulge for a gun you're likely to end up in a HIPAA lawsuit before a gun rights lawsuit.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 01:34 PM
I agree. As long as you can't tell whether the bulge is a gun or a phone.....who cares?

If they get called, the cops will figure out if it's flagrant or intentional.

Vern Humphrey
August 3, 2009, 01:36 PM
If someone is charged when open carry is legal, the charge is usually "disturbing the peace" or something like that. It seems to me that the person calling the police and making a fuss about someone else doing something that is perfectly legal is the one "disturbng the peace." That guy should be the one arrested.

Gryffydd
August 3, 2009, 01:37 PM
So far as Bulge carry goes...I guess it's all a matter of degrees. I usually have some amount of bulge when I carry, however, it's not a bulge that is immediately recognizable as a gun. I'm sure that the one half of one percent of people that even notice the bulge don't assume it's a gun when there's so many other more common things it might be. However, it does leave me with 2 things: fairly quick access to my weapon, and a full size 1911. If I ever need it, I'll be glad I have it and not a little .380 pocket pistol.

Logos
August 3, 2009, 01:37 PM
If someone is charged when open carry is legal, the charge is usually "disturbing the peace" or something like that. It seems to me that the person calling the police and making a fuss about someone else doing something that is perfectly legal is the one "disturbng the peace." That guy should be the one arrested.

LOL!

Doesn't happen that way, though.

:D

chuckusaret
August 3, 2009, 01:46 PM
"Bulge carrying" is not in the spirit of the law. Here in Florida the law states concealed; to hide a person or thing: to put or keep something or somebody out of sight or prevent the person or thing from being found. What purpose does it communicate to the surrounding people who observe the bulge. First, most people would think you are some kind of a nut and call the cops. Second, the BG would know who to shoot first. Third, If the LE types observe the bulge they will give you a hassle and IMO rightly so.
Everyone that I know goes to great lengths to conceal their weapons so that it is next to impossible to be seen by others or accidently seen by others. Common Sense; good judgment: sound practical judgment derived from experience rather than study.

dirt_j00
August 3, 2009, 01:49 PM
Covering our guns with pieces of cloths makes everyone safer. :confused:

TexasRifleman
August 3, 2009, 01:49 PM
hat purpose does it communicate to the surrounding people who observe the bulge.

You make the assumption that I think a lot of people make, that the average Joe sees "gun" when he sees a lump.

I think you will find that outside of the shooting community the average guy doesn't see a gun when he sees that same lump.

We look at it with a bias I think.

Same with the little fanny pack things. Most gun people see them and it screams "GUN!". Most average people see them and it screams "DORK!"

Gryffydd
August 3, 2009, 02:39 PM
Same with the little fanny pack things. Most gun people see them and it screams "GUN!". Most average people see them and it screams "DORK!"

Funny...to me they scream "GUN DORK!" :D

30mag
August 3, 2009, 06:01 PM
He could be a terrorist or a nut who lost his job and decides to shoot up a shopping center......this has been happening more and more often in recent years.

This is NOT common sense, this is tinfoil-hat paranoia.

30mag
August 3, 2009, 06:02 PM
If someone is charged when open carry is legal, the charge is usually "disturbing the peace" or something like that. It seems to me that the person calling the police and making a fuss about someone else doing something that is perfectly legal is the one "disturbng the peace." That guy should be the one arrested.
In Texas you can OC a long arm (I think) if it is not done in a way so as to cause alarm (or something like that).
I'd love to walk around with a deer rifle strapped to my back.

But it would likely not end well.

CCWB
August 4, 2009, 11:49 AM
Let me jump in on this one.

I open carry, look scruffy sometimes, but most folks think I'm an LEO. When my kid is with me and we go to eat, by law I have to open carry because of the alcohol law.

I don't bulge carry because on my frame, it would look really bad. So I just OC or CC if I'm going somewhere shady or where the folks may "treat" me as biker trash or anywhere close to work. I don't want my co-workers yappin at work and causing me undue stress by HR.

30mag
August 4, 2009, 05:51 PM
All gun laws are racist in origin. All of them.

I'm not sure California's law have a reason..

Battlespace
August 4, 2009, 06:33 PM
I glanced thru the thread and didn't see anything about us old geezers who obviously are not LEO OC. When I do it, it is very obvious that I am not LEO, so I just go ahead and do it, although I personally feel that CC is a better option.

TexasRifleman
August 4, 2009, 06:34 PM
I'm not sure California's law have a reason..

Probably true LOL.

I'll rephrase it to say the original gun controls in this country was race based, then it expanded to the insanity we have today, how's that?

Eightball
August 4, 2009, 06:44 PM
I thought you were gonna say you got one of them jock-strap Thunderware holsters.This was my first thought, as well.

junyo
August 4, 2009, 07:51 PM
My thought has always been this: Open carry protects you, concealed carry protects everybody. I understand the point of open carry, I don't understand the point of giving bad guys free data. It's great if a criminal decides not to rob the store (right now), because you're at the counter with a gun on your hip; it would be better if he had to wonder about whether every single customer, employee, or passerby was packing.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
August 4, 2009, 07:54 PM
I call it "CIPS" carry personally (pronounced "sips") - Concealed In Plain Sight. And I agree it's a great way to carry - *IF* you're not self-conscious about doing it.

dirt_j00
August 4, 2009, 08:53 PM
I think CIPS would apply to a SafePacker, no?

DHJenkins
August 4, 2009, 10:47 PM
My thought has always been this: Open carry protects you, concealed carry protects everybody. I understand the point of open carry, I don't understand the point of giving bad guys free data. It's great if a criminal decides not to rob the store (right now), because you're at the counter with a gun on your hip; it would be better if he had to wonder about whether every single customer, employee, or passerby was packing.

+1

It's the same principal as not having gun bumper stickers on your vehicle.

CCWB
August 5, 2009, 12:59 PM
When it all boils down, each person that carries, should carry in a legal self-preferred method.

I'd like to have a gatlin gun mounted on my truck, but I don't think its legal.

Vern Humphrey
August 5, 2009, 01:05 PM
Actually, it probably is, depending on where you live. A gatling gun is not a machine gun under the NFA of 1934, and anyone can own one without any federal license or paying a tax.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
August 5, 2009, 01:17 PM
I think CIPS would apply to a SafePacker, no?

Yes. Good example of it.

This belongs in General Handgun, not General general. No one is going to CIPS carry a long gun, I don't think.

30mag
August 5, 2009, 08:30 PM
Actually, it probably is, depending on where you live. A gatling gun is not a machine gun under the NFA of 1934, and anyone can own one without any federal license or paying a tax.
What about a minigun?

Erik M
August 5, 2009, 09:04 PM
I wouldnt want people to imagine that the bulge was a gun anymore than I would want them to assume I had some obscure medical condition. Ill stick to my shoulder rig or ankle holster.

chuckusaret
August 5, 2009, 11:46 PM
Same with the little fanny pack things. Most gun people see them and it screams "GUN!". Most average people see them and it screams "DORK!"

Funny...to me they scream "GUN DORK!"

Here in West Palm Beach we think of these guys/gals as having a different sexual orientation than the normal male or female.

middy
August 6, 2009, 11:44 AM
Here in West Palm Beach Middle School we think of these guys/gals as having a different sexual orientation than the normal male or female.

Fixed it for you.

Erik M
August 6, 2009, 04:26 PM
Fixed it for you.
I know its off topic but i dont get it.

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