[Nolo]

I was out shooting birdshot out of my 870 today for practice when the gun had a major failure to feed.

For some background, the weapon is a Remington 870 Police Magnum 18" I bought NIB about 250 rounds ago (1 month-ish) and then installed a Wilson Combat +2 extension along with the "improved" magazine follower and longer spring.

I was doing a seven round magazine dump when on the second or third round, I had a *click* instead of a *BANG*. I figured I short stroked, so I cycled the weapon again, only to be punished with another *click*. I inspected the gun to find that the rounds were loose in the magazine and the follower obviously was not making contact with them.
I unloaded my gun, ceased firing, detached the barrel and magazine extension and took the weapon inside.

Upon further inspection, the follower, which was made of soft, easily shearable plastic, had been caught inside the magazine tube, probably in the joint between the tube and the extension. When I screwed around to try and get it out, it shot down the tube propelled by the spring and got caught in the feed port of the magazine tube. In order to free it, I had to get a hammer and a bolt and bang the follower out, which broke the central post doohicky on the follower:

http://media.midwayusa.com/highres/266869.jpg

After I got it out, I was able to take the follower out, replace it with the factory follower and re-assemble the weapon.

I haven't gotten back to shoot the weapon since, but if you get Wilson Combat (Scattergun Technologies) extension, I would recommend using the factory follower or a new steel follower, because they are made of noticeably harder materials.

The lesson of this is: it's the magazine, stupid.
From my somewhat limited experience, most weapons are created essentially equal, reliability-wise. There are minor differences, such as ridiculous, mind-blasting reliability that no person should ever force their weapon to demonstrate, like AKs and GLOCKs are notorious for, or parts that are slightly more likely to break than others, but most of the time (I'd estimate 90-95% based on what I have experienced and read) the jam or failure has to do with the magazines. Failure to feeds, double feeds, etc. are all magazine issues. Even a pump-action shotgun, a weapon lauded for reliability (and my example is a particularly nice one), can have issues because it has a magazine. All weapons that have magazines are subject to their failures. Leverguns, pumps, ARs, AKs all have the Achilles heel of being magazine-fed.
Doesn't mean that we shouldn't use repeaters. We should just pay really close attention to their magazines.

As is often said, if you haven't had a failure with your favorite weapon, you haven't shot it enough.

I still love my 870.

[hags]

Sounds like operator error.

[Nolo]

Sounds like operator error.
I am curious to know how you get that.
I originally thought I short-stroked, but that ended up not being the case.

I mean, you're suggesting that there's something I can do to prevent this in the future, and if there is an operator error I can avoid, I'd love to hear it!

This would be no good if it happened to me at the wrong time. It took about 15 minutes to fix!

[hags]

You modified the 870 Police model with aftermarket parts correct????

After which you experienced your "major failure to feed", how is that a problem with the 870P?

The mag. follower and spring you installed were not making contact with the ammo in the magazine, correct?

This is the Wilson improved follower you installed correct?

To title your thread "Major failure with 870 Police" is to me a crock of BS.

You screwed with it, it malfunctioned, you call that a failure of the 870P?????

[ugaarguy]

You tested the weapon after you modified it - good on you.
Your thread title blames the weapon rather than the aftermarket accessory - bad on you. Please edit your thread title.

[Nolo]

You modified the 870 Police model with aftermarket parts correct????

After which you experienced your "major failure to feed", how is that a problem with the 870P?

The mag. follower and spring you installed were not making contact with the ammo in the magazine, correct?

This is the Wilson improved follower you installed correct?

To title your thread "Major failure with 870 Police" is to me a crock of BS.

You screwed with it, it malfunctioned, you call that a failure of the 870P?????
Your thread title blames the weapon rather than the aftermarket accessory - bad on you. Please edit your thread title.
OK, calm down and carefully read the title: "Major Failure with 870 Police"
It was a Major Failure.
And I experienced it with the (modified) 870 Police.

Not that I didn't title it "Major Failure of 870 Police".

I didn't blame the failure on the Police, in fact, I explicitly state in my post that I don't blame it on the firearm, but the aftermarket follower and that I:
still love my 870.

That and the major lesson I learned/reinforced is that magazines are the weak point in repeating firearms.

Bad mags (and mag components, like followers) => Failures.

I can't really think of a title more fitting, either. It wasn't a problem with the extension, just the follower (the extension is still well worth buying, my advice is just to use the original follower).

The title describes the level of failure and the weapon I experienced it on. I am not sure what needs to be changed. Sure, it might give the reader the first impression that the 870 Police is crap or something, but if they bother to read the thread, they will soon find out that's not what I am saying.

[FullEffect1911]

I do agree that it isn't the shotguns fault, and I'm glad you were able to catch the problem in relative short order.

In addition there is one big lesson to be learned: Stick to the advised/stock magazine capacities. I think that is good advice for all magazine fed guns.

[Nolo]

In addition there is one big lesson to be learned: Stick to the advised/stock magazine capacities. I think that is good advice for all magazine fed guns.
I've certainly considered reverting to the original configuration. However, aside from a small complication in field-stripping (the extension sproings out when you twist it off because it's not compatible with the spring retainer), I think it's a bonus rather than a detriment.

I just think it came with a crappy follower.

[swampboy]

Not necessarily operator error. The guy posted a PSA and heads-up for a particular set of equipment. Maybe some think he could have chosen better words, but good info is good info, however it's packaged.

[ugaarguy]

OK, calm down and carefully read the title: "Major Failure with 870 Police"
It was a Major Failure.
And I experienced it with the (modified) 870 Police.

Not that I didn't title it "Major Failure of 870 Police".
NO - it was a failure with the aftermarket parts. Nothing on your 870 failed to function. Wilson's crappy follower failed to function.

[rcmodel]

I had to get a hammer and a bolt and bang the follower out,
which broke the central post doohicky on the follower:Sounds more like a hammer & makeshift punch operator failure to me.

What would have happened do you think, if you had popped the trigger guard pins out and pulled the guard/follower out instead of beating on it with a hammer?

rc

[swampboy]

When you put it back together, make sure that there is not a "step" or gap between the mag tube and the extension. If the tube and extension are not mated perfectly and butted up tight, a coil on the spring and/or the follower can get caught up on that snag and put you outta bidness.

[Nolo]

NO - it was a failure with the aftermarket parts. Nothing on your 870 failed to function. Wilson's crappy follower failed to function.
Wait, you don't consider the follower to be "on my 870"? It sure was installed, wasn't it?

I don't think there's any need to be so hung up with the thread title.

Sounds more like a hammer & makeshift punch failure to me.

What would have happened do you think, if you had popped the trigger pins out instead of beating on it with a hammer?

rc
Huh? How would pulling the trigger group out have helped? It was stuck in the follower stop, not the receiver.

Ah, I don't think I was clear on that:
got caught in the feed port of the magazine tube.

I can see how that might be easily confused with, say the feed lever or something.

I tried all sorts of things, from easing it out with my fingers, to wrapping the bolt in a rubber jar-opener so that I would mar the finish or damage the follower.

When you put it back together, make sure that there is not a "step" or gap between the mag tube and the extension. If the tube and extension are not mated perfectly and butted up tight, a coil on the spring and/or the follower can get caught up on that snag and put you outta bidness.
That is a good guess.

[Virginian]

Let's not get our panties in a wad. He could not have been more honest in describing the problem, and he still loves his gun. We need to get back to hating Obama, Inc. and love one another.

[Nolo]

You made me grin right there, Virginian. :D

[hags]

Not necessarily operator error. The guy posted a PSA and heads-up for a particular set of equipment. Maybe some think he could have chosen better words, but good info is good info, however it's packaged.

I've used that set of particular equipment dozens of times without incident. I think the PSA is for the installation and remedy of the problem.

In order to free it, I had to get a hammer and a bolt and bang the follower out, which broke the central post doohicky on the follower:

A hammer and bolt on a new gun, bad practice.

The magazine is not at fault, the magazine had nothing to do with it. Again, you changed the working parts, the working parts "malfunctioned", you fixed it with "a hammer and bolt and bang". You want to blame the magazine other people want to blame the follower. These are quality parts from an established manufacturer, I'm sure 1000s have been sold and are in use without incident.
Again, I say to whatever degree it's operator error.
Your thread title is misrepresentative.

[Nolo]

A hammer and bolt on a new gun, bad practice.
I suppose I should have taken it to a gunsmith or something to get the follower popped out of the follower retainer, yeah. :rolleyes:

The magazine is not at fault, the magazine had nothing to do with it. Again, you changed the working parts, the working parts "malfunctioned", you fixed it with "a hammer and bolt and bang". You want to blame the magazine other people want to blame the follower. These are quality parts from an established manufacturer, I'm sure 1000s have been sold and are in use without incident. Again, I say to whatever degree it's operator error.
Your thread title is misrepresentative.
I never said the magazine is at fault, I said 90-95% of jams and failures, in my experience and reading, were due to something in the magazine. The follower is something in the magazine.
Yes, I changed the working parts. People do that all the freaking time. I have no idea why I am being crucified for this.
The working parts then definitely malfunctioned not due to anything that I did other than install them. I didn't short stroke the weapon, insert the spring backward, etc. I would call the spring getting stuck 2/3s the way up the tube is a malfunction.
The only possible user error prior to the malfunction could have been me not tightening the extension enough. Not only is this an easy mistake for anyone, let alone someone just really getting into shooting like me, I also checked the extension first thing after the malfunction, and it was on good and tight. I am still not ruling it out at as a possible error, however.
They are quality parts from an established manufacturer. And, indeed, the extension is rock solid and the spring is noticeable superior to the factory spring. However, the follower flat-out failed for me today.
Sometimes, parts don't get made right. Sometimes, parts fail, even from reputable manufacturers. I am not sending hate mail to Wilson Combat, (heck, I'll probably buy their products again, if I ever get around to that 14" SBS 870 I wanna do when I am 21) but my particular follower failed.

Rest your fingers about the title - it's not changing and I already explained why.

I repaired the weapon as best I could (and I didn't bang up any of the parts or finish at all, only the follower got messed up, and I was going to replace it anyway). If you want to criticize me for not being an eye surgeon and removing it with a laser, go ahead. Meanwhile, I'll solve my own problems.

One important thing I also didn't mention with the weapon: it's my home defense gun, and I load it every night and unload it every morning. This means the follower gets a lot more action than the rounds I've put through the gun would suggest. By my calculations (7 rounds moving through the mag twice a day for ~30 days), the magazine has had about 700 rounds through it. This might have something to do with the follower, but it's still a pretty unacceptably low round count for a failure like this.

[Youngster]

This why I prefer metal followers in my shotguns, much stronger and less likely to stick. Not losing a round of capacity as is usually the case with the plastic tailed followers is nice too.

[jakemccoy]

As is often said, if you haven't had a failure with your favorite weapon, you haven't shot it enough.

I still love my 870.
As noted many times, you described a failure with the Wilson Combat +2 extension, not with the 870P. Remington has no control over the reliability of aftermarket parts. I'd be pretty pissed if someone bought my quality product, modify it, jammed it and then implied that my product had a malfunction.

By the way, you are blaming your 870P in the original post. You talk about the general reliability of various gun brands. However, it's unfair to attribute this malfunction to the Remington brand. Now, don't go off and get pissed; I'm not personally attacking you.

What has happened when you've been using your 870P stock?

Anyway, this story provides an example of why my home defense 870P has no magazine extension and is basically stock.

[jakemccoy]

A title allows people to figure out if they want to click on the thread. Not only is the title wrong here, but also the original post is rather long. After reading the whole original post, I had to respond. Otherwise, I feel like my time would have been completely wasted. With an accurate title, I wouldn't have shown up and bothered you guys.

[Tennessee Ned]

I purchased an 870 about a year ago and experienced a similar problem with the unaltered gun. It's only happened once so far when I put 6 in the mag tube and not while shooting. It's supposed to hold 6 but I only put 4 or 5 in it now.

[hags]

You have an issue with a modified 870P, then post a thread online entitled "Major Failure with 870 Police" implying that the weapon and namely the manufacturer is at fault.


Yes, I changed the working parts. People do that all the freaking time. I have no idea why I am being crucified for this.

Because the parts you changed were mentioned as the problem.


The only possible user error prior to the malfunction could have been me not tightening the extension enough.

Then why imply otherwise?

I am still not ruling it out at as a possible error, however.

Then why imply otherwise?

I dont' think the problem was with the 870 all. Your title sounds like an indictment of the 870.

[hags]

I purchased an 870 about a year ago and experienced a similar problem with the unaltered gun. It's only happened once so far when I put 6 in the mag tube and not while shooting. It's supposed to hold 6 but I only put 4 or 5 in it now.

This could also be ammo related.

[Deer Hunter]

Never judge a book by its cover...

You guys are funny. Getting your little panties in a wad because of the title of this post.

How about you leave some nice, meaningful imput for this guy, instead of waving your big internet ego sticks around and beating your chests?

As for Nolo,

I say pick up one of Brownell's stainless steel followers. Wilson makes a quality product and stands by it too, so contact them as well.

[Nolo]

Seriously, this isn't worth bickering about. Unless someone can suggest a title I think is more apt, it remains the same.
All things I've said before:
My 870 had a FTF today.
The problem was an aftermarket follower and possibly me not tightening the extension enough
Pay extra attention to your magazines, even fixed ones, remember to cross all your "t"s and dot all your "i"s when assembling your weapon.

End of story.

[Nolo]

Again, this is a modified 870P, the malfunction was directly attributable to the modifications that were performed.
And I say that over, and over, and over, and over again.
So what's the problem?

[hags]

And I say that over, and over, and over, and over again.
So what's the problem?

The problem is you're blaming, or at least implicating the 870P is the problem. Refer to my analogy.

[Wildyams]

I don't see anywhere where he says it was Remingtons fault, he just so happen to have installed this part on a Remington 870, then the part failed. He made it very clear that the magazine was modified and it was part of the magazine that failed, then he said the part that failed was poorly made compared to the one that came stock.

I do believe he has even admitted it didn't have anything to do with the fact that it was a Remington as opposed to something else.

Moral of the story - if you have a magazine extension, regardless of what brand of gun you have, make sure you test it out thoroughly.

[average_shooter]

The fact is, the guy had a problem with his 870P, which was caused by an aftermarket part. The unit as a whole (the 870) still had a problem.

If the AC in my car craps out, I don't rip out the AC unit to look at it, instead my car (as a whole) has a problem caused by the defective part. The car still has the problem and gets addressed as a whole.

Nolo, sorry to hear you had trouble, but good on ya for finding it at the range and not in a bad situation. Is there any more information you could offer as to why/what failed to work properly (improper mating of the parts inside the mag, for example)?

So can we quit with the bickering and pissing matches and get back to constructive discussion before this one gets locked?

[Girodin]

Wow hags, you are really coming across as an overly defensive fan boy.

The problem is you're blaming, or at least implicating the 870P is the problem.

He really isn't, at least not in the way you seem to be suggesting that he was and you are the only one who seems to be taking it that way. I suggest not getting in a huff over it and not hijacking the thread over your 870 (one of my favorite shotguns BTW) sensitivities.

[my762buzz]

Post #1 mentions a 7 round magazine dump.
How can you fit 7 rounds in a 870 magazine
with only a wilson plus 2 extension?
I can only fit 6 rounds total in my 870
marine magnum magazine. Is something wrong
with my magazine?

[ugaarguy]

Unless someone can suggest a title I think is more apt, it remains the same.I can think of a far more accurate one. "Wilson plus two kit has major failure. Installed on 870P." That title would actually attribute the failure to what failed, not the gun that the faulty parts were installed on.

The fact is, the guy had a problem with his 870P, which was caused by an aftermarket part. The unit as a whole (the 870) still had a problem.

If the AC in my car craps out, I don't rip out the AC unit to look at it, instead my car (as a whole) has a problem caused by the defective part. The car still has the problem and gets addressed as a whole.
Did you install an aftermarket AC unit in your car? Your analogy be would correct if Nolo had experienced a failure with the factory installed parts. He experienced a failure with an aftermarket part. If you installed an aftermarket increased output AC unit, yourself, in your car, and it overloaded your electrical system, would you say your car failed? No, well maybe you would, but I'd say "The aftermarket high output AC unit, which I installed myself, failed by overloading the electrical system in my Tacoma. You should stick with Toyota OEM AC units, and have an ASE certified technician install them." Or something like that. Words mean things.

[2RCO]

Guys --jeepers the thread title is a wee bit misleading but if you read the thread the description is honest and forthright. Don't crucify the guy. This is The High Road act like it. Quit trying to be gun counter commanders of knowledge and help the guy.

To the OP I have personally bought more than one modified shotty with mag extensions IMHO these extensions cause nothing but grief Moreso with the 2's than 3's. If you put a 3 on an 18' it's too long. Also the spring was probably caught in the first place rather than the follower. They like to do this at the joint between the tube and extension.

5 Rounds that feed are better than 7 that don't.

What the Gun World needs is a little love and understanding :evil::D

Raleigh

[Nolo]

Nolo, sorry to hear you had trouble, but good on ya for finding it at the range and not in a bad situation. Is there any more information you could offer as to why/what failed to work properly (improper mating of the parts inside the mag, for example)?
No, just that I think this can be avoided either with a harder plastic follower, such as the one that the 870 comes with, or a steel one.
There was visible plastic shearing on the follower where you could see that it got caught on something (presumably a gap in the extension-to-mag connection), with little flakes hanging off, ready to get caught on something.

Post #1 mentions a 7 round magazine dump.
How can you fit 7 rounds in a 870 magazine
with only a wilson plus 2 extension?
I can only fit 6 rounds total in my 870
marine magnum magazine. Is something wrong
with my magazine?
Nope. I am referring to 6+1 capacity with the extension.

Did you install an aftermarket AC unit in your car? Your analogy be would correct if Nolo had experienced a failure with the factory installed parts. He experienced a failure with an aftermarket part. If you installed an aftermarket increased output AC unit, yourself, in your car, and it overloaded your electrical system, would you say your car failed? No, well maybe you would, but I'd say "The aftermarket high output AC unit, which I installed myself, failed by overloading the electrical system in my Tacoma. You should stick with Toyota OEM AC units, and have an ASE certified technician install them." Or something like that. Words mean things.
Seriously, stop it.

I have established from the OP that they were aftermarket parts.

I can think of a far more accurate one. "Wilson plus two kit has major failure. Installed on 870P." That title would actually attribute the failure to what failed, not the gun that the faulty parts were installed on.
Well, gee, I wasn't shooting a Wilson Combat mag extension, was I? I was shooting a Remington 870 Police Magnum that had been modified. The weapon is a whole system. When you get a doublefeed with your favorite AR, do you say "USGI Colt magazine experiences doublefeed". No, you say "My AR-15 doublefed!"

To the OP I have personally bought more than one modified shotty with mag extensions IMHO these extensions cause nothing but grief Moreso with the 2's than 3's. If you put a 3 on an 18' it's too long. Also the spring was probably caught in the first place rather than the follower. They like to do this at the joint between the tube and extension.
Since this incident, I have been considering putting in the old spring and retainer and keeping the extension on, because it has my sling loop on it.
More testing is needed, I say.

[jakemccoy]

Nolo, you say in the original post that you were doing a "seven round magazine dump". Then, in post #43 you say you had a 6+1 extension. So, you had 1 round in the chamber and 6 rounds in the magazine, right?

About the sling loop, you probably know that you can buy a cap with a sling stud:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=138977

How is your gun's reliability without the magazine extension???

By the way, it's fair to point out that you're not the only one learning in this thread. I'm sorry if I sound callous, but I don't have a deep burning desire to fix your specific problem. I'm interested in learning from your problem while maybe helping you out along the way. (That's probably the motivation of most people here.) When you say you have a major failure with your 870P, I'm thinking that I need to worry about my own 870P. I later found out that your problem is the extension, not the stock 870. So, the title originally threw me off. I'm not a dick for pointing out the title threw me off. I use my 870P for important stuff.

[rbernie]

You tested the weapon after you modified it - good on you.
Your thread title blames the weapon rather than the aftermarket accessory - bad on you. I concur. I have edited the thread title to better indicate the scenario. As it stood, the original version *did* have a 'man bites dog!' newsstory quality to it (in which you find out that the article is about a hotdog vendor and his customers and not about a man physically biting a dog).

I have also deleted some posts, and would like to remind some of you to mind your manners a bit better. Y'all came down pretty hard on something that simply did not need that level of angst.