Why the majority of semi-auto manufacturers stops at 45 ACP-40 S&W???


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saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 02:17 PM
Basically if you want to go over the power level of 45-40 there is a big void...good luck to you...


10 mm Auto is only widely available from Glock (Model 20 & 29), Kimber and Dan Wesson are mostly on special order at least in shops around Western WA, rarely you see one available on shelves.

Some shops carry the EAA but....you know the issues about EAA and the Witness 10 mm in particular, so I won't go there....

Here and there only occasionally you see some DE (357 Mag, 44 Mag or 50 AE) and even more rare some exotic calibers like the 45 Super or the 460 Rowland.

Up to 45 and 40 the offering is limitless, every conceivable size, action, metal, polymer etc....


On the revolver side, almost every shop carries at least some S&W 500 models, 357 and 44 Mag from every manufacturer are everywhere and the 454 is very common also


So why the vast majority of semi auto ends at 45-40 power levels???

Few semi-auto users want more power?? Are they wimpy?? :evil::D

The 10 mm Auto is a fantastic high power compact caliber, perfect for light wood protection...

In my opinion every gun lover should salivate over a true 10 mm load double stack pistol..the demand should be very strong to push more manufacturers into it.


The revolver almost equivalent of that round, the 357 Mag, is everywhere....

So what is the problem folks??? Some chauvinistic attitude toward a cartridge maybe perceived as foreigner?? It should not be so...after all the very popular 9 mm is a foreign cartridge!!! :D

Why very few pistolas with more oomph than a 45 or a 40 in the market??

Can someone solve the mistery for me??


Regards

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ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 02:22 PM
It's easier to make a revolver that balances well and doesn't blow itself apart with really hot rounds.

Ever shoot a Desert Eagle? Nice shooter IMO. I really like shooting them. But they're expensive, heavy and huge.

A nice Redhawk or 629 is cheaper, a better holster gun, and has a better reputation for reliability.

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 02:46 PM
It's easier to make a revolver that balances well and doesn't blow itself apart with really hot rounds.

Ever shoot a Desert Eagle? Nice shooter IMO. I really like shooting them. But they're expensive, heavy and huge.

A nice Redhawk or 629 is cheaper, a better holster gun, and has a better reputation for reliability.


I agree on the extreme side of the power equation....however a 10 mm Auto is not a 44 Mag or a 50 AE...you can build very good pistols for it (for example the S&W 10x6 series)

Japle
July 30, 2009, 02:50 PM
I used to own a .357 and .44 AutoMag. I kick myself every day for selling them.

My loads for the .357 were a 150 gr Sierra JHP at 1850 fps and a 90 gr Sierra 9mm JHP at 2495 fps. The 90 gr load was great on jackrabbits and coyotes. That bullet was designed for 1400-1500 fps and would expand on a raindrop.

The .44 loads were a 180 gr JHP at 1860 fps and the 265 gr Hornady bullet designed for the .444 Marlin at 1510 fps. That load would shoot straight through a Mule deer from front to back. It wouldn't expand on the sidewalk.

Having that kind of power in an 8-shot semi-auto was wonderful. Felt recoil was nothing compared to a hot-loaded revolver.

I miss those guns. It's so sad .........

Thingster
July 30, 2009, 02:51 PM
Look at the number of companies that used to market 10mm pistols, now look at the companies that do. The market demand just wasn't (isn't) there to support many manufacturers producing 10mm pistols.

The other "hot" pistols are jsut too darn expensive for most people to consider.

Acera
July 30, 2009, 02:59 PM
Once they found out that their "girlie men" could not handle the 10mm, the FBI dropped it in favor of the 10mm light aka .40 S&W.

With the trend to always having what the operators, agencies,and professionals use, people took it for granted that was the way to go.

The 10mm is a very viable cartridge, and with some companies producing full power loads, it is even appealing to me.

Also, it looks like the Vltor Bren 10 is about to be released. Time to go back to some Phil Collins music, white pants, fast boats, Ferrari's, and drug runners, LOL.

rcmodel
July 30, 2009, 03:08 PM
There is an upper limit to how much power you can put in an autoloader and still get your hand around the grip. The 10mm is about it.

There is also an upper limit to how much pressure you can contain with a short-recoil locked breach design.
Again, the 10mm is about it.
The Wildys & Desert Eagles have gas-operated rotary bolts for a reason!

And given a choice, it seems 99 out of 100 new gun buyers will chose a gun that holds half a box of ammo in one mag over one that holds 6 or 7 of "the most powerful handgun in the world and will blow your head clean off" type cartridges.

Spray & Pray is alive & well!

The DE's and such are fun to play with and very accurate.
But you darn sure wouldn't want to CCW one I betcha!

rc

Zoogster
July 30, 2009, 03:10 PM
They are generally too large.

Most semi-automatic pistols have the magazine inserted through the pistol grip. That means the round is limited to under a certain length for most of the population. The longer the cartridge the more ridiculous the grip must become to both contain the magazine and be thick enough to be durable.

The action of most larger caliber semi-automatics requires the barrel to tilt and the slide to go rearward at least the length of the cartridge. So the longer the cartridge the more movement from the slide is required to reliably cycle rounds. The slide needs to go rearward more than the length of the longest cartridge and bullet combination in that caliber.
The longer the cartridge the more gradual the barrel pivot angle will be when the slide breach locks and unlocks, or the barrel needs to be higher within the slide to compensate adding to the dimensions of the firearm.
The breech lock needs a certain tilt angle of movement. To withstand even more powerful calibers you need even more metal locking up in a that action type. More metal locking up will require an even greater angle of barrel tilt to open and close or lock and unlock the breech.
Yet the increased cartridge length as I explained already made the angle shallower unless the dimensions and height of the slide (or at least the opening for the barrel) are increased.
So there is limits in John Brownings breech lock design if you want a firearm of reasonable dimensions.

The Desert Eagle gets around most of those issues because it is gas operated and cycles more like a rifle than a pistol. But that adds weight, bulk, and more complexity to the firearm. It also means it is less reliable because it has a gas system that must be kept clean rather than relying on pure recoil.

A pistol with a magazine outside the pistol grip is not limited by the size of the users hand, but then the shape of the pistol, storage, and ability to use standard holsters is changed. They also have a more sinister appearance, and as such were considered "Assault weapons" under the sunset federal bill and under the laws of some states.

KSDeputy
July 30, 2009, 03:16 PM
I would guess that the .45acp is so popular, after 90 years, that more semi's are made for it. I own 8 Smith semis in .45acp. My sheriff's office went to Glock 40s&w after I retired. I don't anticipate buying either a Glock, or a .40s&w caliber gun. They gave me a new 4506 that had been to the range once, when I left. I keep it by the bed, also have another new one in the safe. I just believe in .45's.

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 03:21 PM
The market demand just wasn't (isn't) there to support many manufacturers producing 10mm pistols.


Infact that is exactly my question...why there isn't more demand for 10 mm auto pistols....as many said already is the most powerful round a practical locked breech design can handle and it has obvious advantages compared to a 45 or a 40 in certain situations...

I totally agree on the DE and similar..too bulky and not practical (heavy, gas operated design, etc...)

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 03:23 PM
Maybe it's because people are swayed by marketing that makes 9mm sound like a .45, .40 sound like a rifle, and .45 sound like a cannon?

If people aren't even looking for something more powerful, there won't be a market.

rcmodel
July 30, 2009, 03:25 PM
Well, if you had the pleasure of shooting a Colt Delta using the first Norma 10mm ammo when they came out in 1987, you wouldn't need to ask.

They were downright nasty powerful, and well more then the average shooter would be willing to put up with for fun at the range, or could shoot accurately.

rc

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 03:29 PM
BTW there have been other cartridges introduced since the 10mm. They show a definite trend.

The .45 GAP and the .357 SIG, in different ways, are about trying to fit more power in less case length. As others have said, grip size matters.

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 03:36 PM
If people aren't even looking for something more powerful, there won't be a market.

They were downright nasty powerful, and well more then the average shooter would be willing to put up with for fun at the range, or could shoot accurately.


Interesting theory but I do not think is entirely accurate...I see people interested and/or buying powerful revolvers (44 Mag & up) all the time in gun shops and shows...kids and older folks alike...gun ranges are full of them....but for some reason, in a semi-auto format everybody stops at 40-45!!!

he .45 GAP and the .357 SIG, in different ways, are about trying to fit more power in less case length. As others have said, grip size matters.


Yes and no.....45 ACP is incredibly popular and there is not much of a difference in grip size between a 45 ACP and a 10 mm Auto....the 45 GAP is basically non-existant and is going to die very soon I think unless Glock keep it alive for reasons of pride....

Zoogster
July 30, 2009, 03:37 PM
Infact that is exactly my question...why there isn't more demand for 10 mm auto pistols....as many said already is the most powerful round a practical locked breech design can handle and it has obvious advantages compared to a 45 or a 40 in certain situations...

The .40S&W was designed through cost and politics from the 10mm Auto.

The FBI did tests after a major failure in a gunfight to determine what the ideal cartridge would be. They arrived at the full power 10mm Auto loads.
The gun they issued though only had springs setup for the .45 ACP the firearm was normaly chambered in.
As a result the battering that resulted was tremendous, much more than it should have been with proper springs. That made the recoil seem much worse, and the reputation of the round was damaged.
Many women could not even handle it with those 45 ACP springs. They threatened to sue for sexual discrimination because that gun was required to qualify and keep thier jobs.
This is when women were new to the workforce many places, in the tough woman culture of the 80's while sexual discrimination suits were happening left and right.
So the pressure from the sexual discrimination claim caused the FBI to begin to underload the 10mm Auto to what was .40S&W levels, or 10mm lite/ FBI lite which operated better with the improper .45ACP springs those guns were using.
Of course that negated all the testing done that arrived at the full power 10mm Auto being the best round for the job. They went from the best round for the job to one that wouldn't get them sued, when all they needed to do was change the recoil springs.

Gun companies realized they could use the much more common and cheaper 9mm pistol frames and still contain this new underloaded 10mm round since it no longer needed the powder capacity of the 10mm Auto case. So they could use the cheaper and more compact 9mm frames, rather than the robust 10mm or 45 ACP designs.
The .40 S&W was born.

So the 10mm Auto's image was tarnished because of the use of improper springs. The 40 S&W was born due to threats of sexual discrimination lawsuits, which resulting in underloaded rounds which manufactures realized could be used in existing 9mm frames by just shortening the cartridge length.

So the .40 S&W has come to dominate law enforcement when the whole reason for the original adoption of the 10mm auto was because after extensive FBI tests it was determined to be the best for the job. While the reason for the adoption of the .40 S&W was political and profit based.

Gryffydd
July 30, 2009, 03:38 PM
There's also the fact that most people carry auto pistols for use against 2 legged predators. For that, the .45 or .40 are "enough". Especially when you consider quick follow up shots and the risks of over penetration.

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 03:38 PM
I seriously think that someone looking for a revolver isn't looking for a semiauto, and vice versa.

The market overlap may be surprisingly minimal, on a gun-by-gun basis.

most people carry auto pistols for use against 2 legged predators

Bingo.

While I have a big .45 that I'd consider "mixed use", if I'm thinking 4-legged, I'm thinking 6-shooter.

Hence, what I wrote above...

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 03:44 PM
I seriously think that someone looking for a revolver isn't looking for a semiauto, and vice versa.

The market overlap may be surprisingly minimal, on a gun-by-gun basis.


I agree with you in part.....


The 10 mm Auto Auto market for semis should overlap with the 357 Mag in a revolver format (power wise)

If you carry a 357 for light wildlife defense duty you should appreciate the opportunity to have 15+1 rounds instead of 6 (or 8 in some models)....yes I know that in case of attack you probably do not have the time to unload all that firepower still "psycologically" you have more firepower....and a semi-auto tend to be more compact than a revolver (at least in the 10 mm-357 comparison)

Zoogster
July 30, 2009, 03:48 PM
here's also the fact that most people carry auto pistols for use against 2 legged predators. For that, the .45 or .40 are "enough". Especially when you consider quick follow up shots and the risks of over penetration.

The 10mm Auto is essentially the .357 Magnum in an auto. The .357 had been used for many decades and developed a reputation as an excellent man stopper in Law Enforcement and civilian circles.
From the 1930s until the adoption of the semi-auto in the 80s and 90s the .357 Magnum was the round.

It would only make sense then that the 10mm Auto is essentially the .357 magnum in an auto. Similar bullet weights at similar velocities. The .357 cartridge is a little too long for a practical auto, so it is a little wider and shorter in the 10mm Auto to feed reliably from a practical size.

Gryffydd
July 30, 2009, 03:51 PM
I would love to get a 10mm, but here's my problem.
I already have my big revolvers if I ever decide to wander into bear country.
I already have a 1911 in .45acp that is my primary carry gun.
I'd like to have a 10mm that would work equally well for both. However, just as you listed there's a dearth of pistols chambered in it.
If I get a 1911 in 10mm I'm only getting 1 more shot than an 8 shot 357. If I get a Glock 20, it doesn't fit my hands. The 20SF I can at least get a good grip on, but it's still a Glock. Nobody has ever accused them of great ergonomics. Then there's the rest that are too weak, too rare etc.

If Springfield/HS could come out with a double stack .45ACP that fits even my small hands while matching the capacity of the Glock 21, they could do the same thing with the 10mm. If SOMEBODY would come out with a decent double stack 10mm I'd jump on it. It's the combination of .357 power with high capacity that would make it worthwhile compared to my current guns. And I think that's a situation a lot of people may be in.

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 03:52 PM
Yes and no.....45 ACP is incredibly popular and there is not much of a difference in grip size between a 45 ACP and a 10 mm Auto....the 45 GAP is basically non-existant and is going to die very soon I think unless Glock keep it alive for reasons of pride....

I'm just saying it was introduced with that in mind, not that it succeeded. Note that the .45 ACP is incredibly popular in single-stack guns, and has a very real but limited market in double-stacks like the XD45 (which I have and like). I think the reason the GAP didn't become popular is because people with small hands also have small wrists, and may shy away from .45s.

psycologically" you have more firepower

Yeah, but since I'm not an idiot, I opt for effectiveness over delusion.:) I'd guess that many trail carriers are of the same ilk. The deluded hikers are the hippies who don't like "violence" and wouldn't carry a gun, revolver or semiauto.

.357 SIG doesn't come in wildlife-defense loads, anyway, even if I were to forego the .44. I don't load my .357 with 125 grain cop bullets on the trail, either. For "light" trail defense, the .45 has served well for a century and a quarter -- the additional bullet weight makes it a tad more useful against bigger critters, unless you use expanding bullets like some people might... And it carries 14, which will do.

a semi-auto tend to be more compact than a revolver (at least in the 10 mm-357 comparison)

Really? Don't tell the Model 60 I sometimes pocket carry on the trail. It doesn't know that.:)

One more thing... My trail guns get covered in fine dust in the Summer. With a revolver, I just wipe them off, and clean them well when they get truly dirty. A semiauto tends to collect that stuff in the oil more easily, and its function is impacted more by it.

Gryffydd
July 30, 2009, 03:57 PM
For "light" trail defense, the .45 has served well for a century and a quarter -- the additional bullet weight makes it a tad more useful against bigger critters, unless you use expanding bullets like some people might... And it carries 14, which will do.
And as much as I know Saturno hates the idea of a .45acp for wilderness carry, and as much as I'll admit the superiority of the 10mm, 230gr TCs at 1010fps (DoubleTap) is nothing to sneeze at up to Black Bear anyway, and beyond that the 10mm isn't acceptable either. Oh, and the 230gr .45 bullet has the same SD as a 180gr 10mm.

MagnumDweeb
July 30, 2009, 03:58 PM
I own a first gen Glock 20, now the Glock 20C i just picked up a couple weeks ago, I keep telling myself I should get a Glock 29 but I have a lot of gun projects in the works.

I labeled myself MagnumDweeb for a reason I LOVE MAGNUMS. I shot my first .44 Magnum, a Ruger SBH 7.5"(my grandpas) when I was 15 and fell in love with the experience. My first handgun was a Ruger Security Six .357 Magnum in 4". I own four snub nose .357 Magnums and yes I use magnum loads. I own three Redhawks 7.5",4", 5.5" in .44 Magnum and one .454 Casull in 7.5". I own four S&W Model 19s. And will eventually get a Ruger GP 100 4". I own two Ruger SBH in .44 magnum. But I also on four .45 ACP (Taurus PT 1911, Ruger 90(2 of them), and Ruger P345).

I generally either carry a Glock 20 or a Ruger P345 in conjunction with a snub nose .357 magnum. .45 ACP is a heck of a cartridge if you can put in target and have a good load.

You also got to remember that most folks don't want to feel pain or discomfort when they are shooting. My students will regularly joke when I'm shooting my magnums one handed like its easy. For some folks magnum calibers are just not what they are up for is all. I don't particularly blame them. I've been thinking of joining the high capacity 9mm bandwagon for CCW since I already own a Glock 19 and Taurus PT 92.

When you add up expense and time needed to become a proficient shooter, it's just easier for some folks to stick with 9mm handguns that hold fifteen or more rounds.

Acera
July 30, 2009, 04:00 PM
But fo-tay sounds better in a rap song.


Other news on the reintroduction of the Bren 10, I got an email from Vltor. They said check back after Christmas, but the target date for the release is 2010 SHOT show.

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 04:01 PM
230gr TCs at 1015fps (DoubleTap) is nothing to sneeze at up to Black Bear anyway

Exactly.

And for anything bigger, I have a real gun anyway.:D

And as much as I know Saturno hates the idea of a .45acp for wilderness carry

Based on what, though?

The .45 Colt was used for that, for a very long time, and worked well. See, I believe in heavy, penetrating bullets, because I've seen them kill big things. I'm sure the 10mm is just as good, and most likely more effective by a bit. That doesn't suddenly render the .45 useless. And neither one of them is a serious predator stopper.

The real advantage the hi-cap gun really has is emergency signalling. High capacity won't matter worth a crap against an attacking predator. If you get off more than a few shots, it wasn't attacking.

Gryffydd
July 30, 2009, 04:04 PM
But fo-tay sounds better in a rap song.
Fitty isn't too bad either, but that limits us to the .50 AE for the current discussion ;)

rcmodel
July 30, 2009, 04:07 PM
I think another factor is a lot of big-bore magnum revolver shooters and hunters tend to be handloaders.

A 10mm auto pitches it's brass into low-earth orbit, never to be seen again.
And it is uncommen enough that you won't find once-fired brass laying on the ground at the range.

rc

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 04:08 PM
Armed Bear I do not understand your point...


To your Model 60 I can oppose a Glock 29...very compact....you may pocket carry in hiking clothes

Yes you could go 2" in a snubnose 357..however you lose significant power...I would not rely on one of them in the woods...

Why a 357 revolver should be more effective than a 10 mm Auto pistol??

In anything, in a similar size you can carry over double of the rounds.....the only reasonable argument is that a semi-auto may be statistically less reliable than a revolver...it may....

Furthermore at full SAAMI specs for both the 10 mm has a slight edge over a 357 and with heavier bullets..

If for light wildlife defense we consider only cougars and very small black bears, with the right bullet the 45 is more than adequate....but for a just bit bigger blackie the 10 mm has an edge over the 45 and I do want that edge...

however I agree with you, at the moment when I take the way of the woods I carry my Mod 29 in 44.....but to sum it up a 357 Revolver has no advantages over a 10 mm auto pistol as "light" wood pistol, quite the contrary....

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 04:10 PM
but to sum it up a 357 Revolver has no advantages over a 10 mm auto pistol as "light" wood pistol, quite the contrary....

We also have rattlesnakes. Alternating loads work perfectly in a revolver. And drop both in the mud...

Seriously, though, I don't give a crap what you carry.

Carry a Glock 29 if you want. Don't delude yourself that you get book velocity from it, though.

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 04:17 PM
Drop both in the mud...


Depends on what revolver and what semi auto...I had my Beretta 92 shooting pefectly after being dropped in mud....

I don't give a crap what you carry.


I carry both actually..I recognize the advantages of one versus the other without ideological prejudice

230gr TCs at 1010fps (DoubleTap) is nothing to sneeze at

180 gr. 10 mm Auto BB at 1350 fps, 782 ft/lb...

Zoogster
July 30, 2009, 04:19 PM
.357 SIG doesn't come in wildlife-defense loads, anyway

.357 SIG is not a .357 Magnum in any way. They just capitalized on the well known .357 name.
The 10mm Auto is the auto version of the .357Magnum.
The .357 SIG being a .40 S&W tapered to 9mm.

I used to own a .357 and .44 AutoMag. I kick myself every day for selling them.

My loads for the .357 were a 150 gr Sierra JHP at 1850 fps and a 90 gr Sierra 9mm JHP at 2495 fps. The 90 gr load was great on jackrabbits and coyotes. That bullet was designed for 1400-1500 fps and would expand on a raindrop.

If you taper the 10mm Auto to 9mm you get the 9x25 Dillon. A real monster, (but too loud for practical use). It launches light 9mm (.356) projectiles at velocities comparable (or even faster) to high power .357 Magnum loads using light bullets. While the 10mm Auto covers much of the heavier bullet range of the .357 Magnum.
A 9x25 dillon barrel fits right into a 10mm auto gun, just as a .357 SIG barrel fits into a .40 S&W gun as they are essentially the same round just tapered for a smaller bullet.

So if you get a 10mm Auto with a 9x25 dillon barrel for it you can do what you could with your .357 automag with light 90 grain loads. You can load them even hotter, softer, or anywhere in between as a 9x25 dillon 90 grain bullet goes well over 2,000 feet per second.
A simple barrel swap and you can go from super fast light bullets in 9mm to heavy bullets in 10mm. Separate recoil springs can fine tune it for nicer shooting if you wish as well.

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 04:21 PM
In context, the Beretta 92 is a range toy, enormous for the little pills it tosses. Apples to apples.

180 gr. 10 mm Auto BB at 1350 fps, 782 ft/lb...

From a Glock 29? I doubt it.

Note that the 29 has an actual barrel length about the same as a Model 60.

HoosierQ
July 30, 2009, 04:23 PM
I would prefer the firearms makers concentrate on making better and/or more inovative platforms for the rounds we already have...including 10mm and .357 sig. There would seem to be sufficient variety all up and down the power spectrum to do whatever you want, today, with rounds we have...even though you do have to cross over from an auto to a revolver at some point.

There have been a variety of "dream" threads as to what gun would you like to see made. Some imagination there, employed by the firearms makers, would be how I'd want it to go. Heck, I'd just like to see more steel firearms in modern configurations. How about a steel M&P or s steel Glock...made by glock. Thin everything down etc.

sqlbullet
July 30, 2009, 04:26 PM
Full power Norma 10mm Auto loads were never issue by the FBI. The FBI tests in 1989 were heavily weighted towards what would become 40 S&W ballistics, with only one of the 5 10mm loads tested making more than 1,000 fps. They tested 170 gr (Norma, 1358 fps avg), three 180 gr (Federal, Winchester and IMP-3D at 931 fps, 955 fps, 991 fps avg respectively) and 191 gr (Buffalo Bore, 916 fps). They adopted the Federal 180 grain JHP.

I have read, but not substantiated, that this loading was based on early, pre-test observations that the Colt Delta Elites were not handling the full power Norma loads well. Supposedly someone in the lab bought some 180 grain JHP's and loaded them to around 950 fps. They liked this load, and convinced Federal to provide some factory loads to this spec. Since so many of the tested loads mimic these ballistics, it is likely this spec pre-dated the test.

Given the momentum numbers for the power level of the load they adopted, the 45 acp springs were probably correct. This load generates very similar energy and momentum to the 45 ACP rounds included in the test. However, I have never heard of issue 1076's that were under sprung. The Delta's used in the test most likely were under-sprung. I know the Delta I bought in 92 was, and the one my college roomate had in 89 was as well.

Most notably, they 'solved' the excessive recoil problem by switching to a lighter gun (Glock 23 - 21 oz vs 1076 40 oz) firing the same projectile at the same speed (180 gr .400" JHP at 950 fps). This means they fixed the complaints about excessive recoil by using a new platform that would have more recoil than the old one.

Zoogster nailed it though about mfg. In the late '80's everyone was tooling up to make some variant of the 'wonder-nine'. The 10mm was going to require all new engineering and tooling. The 40 S&W though would drop right into about any wonder-nine frame with just a new barrel and breech face. If you owned a company, would you back the round that would cost you hundreds of thousands to tool to for, or the one you could be shipping guns in a month with only some changes to existing parts?

At the end of the day, the only two tested ammunition to score 100% in the FBI's 1989 tests were the 158 gr Federal .357 Mag at 1183 fps and the 170 gr Norma 10mm at 1358 fps.

The full power 10mm loads were largely rejected due to the recoil and concerns over gun longevity. Ultimately, neither were particularly valid in my mind. The S&W 1076 has proven itself more than capable over the years of the handling full power 10mm loads. And, the recoil of the 170 gr JHP at 1358 fps in a 40 oz gun is probably not significantly worse than the recoil of the current 180 gr JHP at 980 fps in a 20 oz gun.

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 04:27 PM
In context, the Beretta 92 is a range toy, enormous for the little pills it tosses. Apples to apples.



My point is that a semi-auto is not necessarily less reliable than a revolver in principle....I brought up the Beretta 92 because that is the "mud experience" I had with a pistol...

From a Glock 29? I doubt it.


Of course not....from a Glock 20....

Even for the 357 the published numbers applies often to barrel length of 6" or more....

Zoogster
July 30, 2009, 04:27 PM
From a Glock 29? I doubt it.

From double tap website to further compare glock 20 and glock 29 velocities:
http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=39


When penetration is key, two holes bleed better than one! Entrance and exit hole! This is an excellent load for woods protection.

Caliber : 10mm

Bullet : 200gr FMJ / FP

Ballistics : 1275fps / 722 ft./lbs. - Glock 20
1088fps / 526 ft lbs 100yds Glock 20
Glock 29 - 1225fps

As you can see only about a 50 fps difference.

If you fire a 180 grain round that goes 1350 FPS from the glock 20 it will be between 1280-1300 from the glock 29 depending on powder burn rate. 180 grain and 200 grain projectiles reach almost the same speed from the slightly shorter barrel. The velocity loss being somewhere around 50 FPS give or take.
In the lighter loadings the 20 begins to pull away from the 29.

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 04:28 PM
.357 SIG is not a .357 Magnum in any way.

That was my point.:)

Gryffydd
July 30, 2009, 04:29 PM
Furthermore at full SAAMI specs for both the 10 mm has a slight edge over a 357 and with heavier bullets
If so, nobody's loading it that way. The top factory .357 loads still outperform the top 10mm factory loads. (Buffalo Bore, Double Tap et al)
Quote:
230gr TCs at 1010fps (DoubleTap) is nothing to sneeze at
180 gr. 10 mm Auto BB at 1350 fps, 782 ft/lb...
Dude, I already said the 10mm is better. That doesn't change the fact that 230 grains at over 1000fps is a very respectable load. We're not talking comparisons we're talking absolute values.

Oh, and good luck getting a 10mm to feed these:
http://www.castperformance.com/stores/c/castp/catalog/4077-l.jpg

The .357 will also always have better SD than the .40.

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 04:29 PM
Even for the 357 the published numbers applies often to barrel length of 6" or more....

4" for my loads. And I have a 4" also.

What I put in my .357 for the trail is similar to the numbers you quoted, so take off some FPS either way for a snubbie or a 29.

Oh, and good luck getting a 10mm to feed these:

LOL

I forgot about that: bullet flexibility. What will feed in a semi isn't necessarily what I want on the trail. Jacketed handgun bullets with soft cores may have impressive numbers on paper, but when they come apart on contact with a predator, they're not so impressive.

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 04:38 PM
The only load I found in 357 (revolver) that beat the 783 ft/lb 180 gr. 10 mm Auto from Buffalo Bore is....from Buffalo Bore...one load reaches 783 ft/lb (1 ft/lb more) in 180 gr. (better SD for the 357 I admit) and another reaches 802 ft/lb in 125 gr.

Everybody else is lower...

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 04:40 PM
I forgot about that: bullet flexibility. What will feed in a semi isn't necessarily what I want on the trail. Jacketed handgun bullets with soft cores may have impressive numbers on paper, but when they come apart on contact with a predator, they're not so impressive.


Very true...infact is critical to find a good semi-auto that feeds reliably with anything and as good break-in/polishing, etc.......that is one of the revolver advantages....

This si the reason I'm looking for a S&W 1006 or 1026 in 10 mm...very tough and they can digest anything...

Zoogster
July 30, 2009, 04:40 PM
The only load I found in 357 (revolver) that beat the 783 ft/lb 180 gr. 10 mm Auto from Buffalo Bore is....from Buffalo Bore...one load reaches 783 ft/lb (1 ft/lb more) in 180 gr. (better SD for the 357 I admit) and another reaches 802 ft/lb in 125 gr.

Everybody else is lower...

Foot pounds are a poor comparison. But if you want to be wowed by foot pounds look at the 10mm Auto with a 9x25 dillon barrel added. You can easily get 900 foot pounds.

Gryffydd
July 30, 2009, 04:41 PM
The only load I found in 357 (revolver) that beat the 783 ft/lb 180 gr. 10 mm Auto from Buffalo Bore is....from Buffalo Bore...one load reaches 783 ft/lb (1 ft/lb more) in 180 gr. (better SD for the 357 I admit) and another reaches 802 ft/lb in 125 gr.

...so at the very least, they're a tie rather than the 10mm being better when you pick the best you can find in either caliber.

Also more proof that muzzle energy is not the number one should be looking at especially when it comes to wildlife. No one would ever say the 802ft/lb from the 125gr HP is a better load than the 783 with the 180 WFNGC.

This si the reason I'm looking for a S&W 1006 or 1026 in 10 mm...very tough and they can digest anything.
I do wonder if they'd feed WFN LBT style bullets...

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 04:48 PM
I do wonder if they'd feed WFN LBT style bullets...


They do, at least the ones I know

Of course ft/lb is not the only measure, I never said that.....bullet constrution and SD are fundamental too..

Obviously 802 ft/lb coming for a 125 gr. HP bullet doesn't mean much for wildlife defense...an overexpanding bullet with poor SD....

Gryffydd
July 30, 2009, 04:54 PM
Of course ft/lb is not the only measure, I never said that
I do realize that. I was just making a side note because that load illustrated the problem with the pure muzzle energy people.

The only problem with the 1006/1026 is that they're still single stack..

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 04:58 PM
The only problem with the 1006/1026 is that they're still single stack..


I know....:confused:.....but 9+1 is better than nothing....I still prefer a S&W 1006 or 1026 rather than a 10 mm 1911 based pistol which have even less capacity (usually 8+1) and are SA only....

And the S&W were built around the original specs of the 10 mm Auto cartridge from the ground up....

Zoogster
July 30, 2009, 04:58 PM
I think single stack 10mm lose a lot of thier appeal. The capacity is no longer much different from a revolver and I would just go with a 44 Magnum revolver which can be loaded up or down.

Only in doublestack firearms do I see the appeal of the 10mm auto.
So to me most of the 1911 designs don't take advantage of the 10mm's potential benefits.

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 05:16 PM
BTW the fact that the high end of the regular production semiauto scale is comparable to what in 2009 is a trivial production revolver round (most of my "play guns" are in .357) is also revealing.

There's some overlap, but that's about as far as it goes. Serious revolvers start where semiautos leave off.

Gryffydd
July 30, 2009, 05:18 PM
The capacity is no longer much different from a revolver and I would just go with a 44 Magnum revolver which can be loaded up or down.
Bingo. We've been focusing on the .357 too much so far in this comparison. 6 vs. 10 really isn't much when you consider the vast power difference between 10mm and .44 Mag or .45 Colt--even excluding the ridiculous revolvers of 454 Casull and up.

saturno_v
July 30, 2009, 06:02 PM
I think single stack 10mm lose a lot of thier appeal. The capacity is no longer much different from a revolver and I would just go with a 44 Magnum revolver which can be loaded up or down.



There's some overlap, but that's about as far as it goes. Serious revolvers start where semiautos leave off.

Bingo. We've been focusing on the .357 too much so far in this comparison. 6 vs. 10 really isn't much when you consider the vast power difference between 10mm and .44 Mag or .45 Colt--even excluding the ridiculous revolvers of 454 Casull and up.

I totally agree

This is the reason why is very sad that the EAA Witness is not (or not longer with the new slide design) capable to handle full specs 10 mm Auto loads....a stronger Witness supported by a reputable company would be very nice...I woudl gladly pay few hundred dollars more than the current prices...


The only other remaining high capacity 10 mm is the Glock 20 if you can stomach the plastic and the action....it is quite reliable and tough, very popular for wildlife carry....

sqlbullet
July 30, 2009, 06:53 PM
I think single stack 10mm lose a lot of thier appeal. The capacity is no longer much different from a revolver and I would just go with a 44 Magnum revolver which can be loaded up or down.

I don't agree. A Dan Wesson RZ-10 is a lot more pleasant to carry around all day in a IWB holster than a Smith 629 with a 4" barrel. And while I do spend some time in the mountains, I spend far more time in the city.

If you are talking about a pure mountain gun, then I start to agree. However, owning two Witness pistols I have been very happy with, I get the best of both worlds.

I feel saturno's pain, but would also point out that for the couple hundred more you can get a custom shop Witness with the old style slide. I am really sorry he had a bad experience, probably made all the worse because he really liked the platform and wanted it to work.

ArmedBear
July 30, 2009, 07:01 PM
A Dan Wesson RZ-10 is a lot more pleasant to carry around all day in a IWB holster than a Smith 629 with a 4" barrel.

Yeah.

Fortunately, I'm not completely stoned, so I don't try to carry my 629 IWB all day.:D

We have wildlife in the city, but I think that squirrels and Canada geese would succumb to a .38 if they ever attacked.

Zoogster
July 30, 2009, 07:46 PM
The only other remaining high capacity 10 mm is the Glock 20 if you can stomach the plastic and the action....it is quite reliable and tough, very popular for wildlife carry....

There is also the Glock 29 which can use Glock 20 15 round magazines, they just stick out slightly. It is a much smaller frame and easier to carry around for hours for just in case. For hunting the 20 is preferred.

Then there is some double stack 45ACP firearms that can be custom converted to 10mm Auto even when not offered from the factory that way. Stick with those designed for .45 ACP +P ammunition. Which is currently the way to go if you don't like Glocks.

By converting a .45 ACP double stack you can get many more options for a 10mm Auto. That means you can get nice quality steel firearms in 10mm auto, that also have the capacity of a doublestack. That is currently the best way to get high quality double stack 10mm Autos.
You will need at least a new barrel and recoil spring, with a .40/10mm extractor also being preferred. Some models have magazines that will work great with the 10mm or can be ordered and some require a little work with a welder and some polishing.

The capacity of the semis can also be adjusted. From 10+1 - 15+1 with the glock standard magazines. To the 28 and 29 round magazines also for the glocks. To similar magazines in many other semi auto designs (modify a .45 ACP magazine for feeding if a stock one does not work.)
While revolvers are stuck at stock capacity.


One other thing:
The semi auto action does reduce perceived recoil. With the ideal recoil spring that is neither too light or heavy you have a much more mild shooter.
As soon as a revolver is fired the recoil impact goes through the frame and into the shooter. While in a semi-auto it is absorbed gradually over a longer length of time by the recoil spring operating the action.
So a .357 Magnum powered round is even easier to shoot faster and accurate.

Acera
July 31, 2009, 12:03 AM
The only other remaining high capacity 10 mm is the Glock 20 if you can stomach the plastic and the action

What about the EAA stuff? Those are 15+1. I have one and it shoots like a charm.

Nicodemus38
July 31, 2009, 12:32 AM
traditional designs cant handle the pressures of the high end handgun cartridges. second issue is that the bulk of the semi automatic pistol market is aimed to federal/state law enforcement and those agencies go with 9mm/45acp/40 sw. Makes no sense to make a handgun that 99%of your primary customer base wont purchase.

Zoogster
July 31, 2009, 01:42 AM
What about the EAA stuff? Those are 15+1. I have one and it shoots like a charm.

The witness compact is a prior favorite that has turned many off on the entire line. The compact EAA witness had a slide change. The newer slides have more metal removed and are known to crack on a good number of people, especially from full power 10mm loads. Loads well within SAAMI specs.
The compact Witness appears to be exactly what many are looking for in a compact package. So once they crack it is pretty disappointing.
The older slides with more steel did not seem to be known for the problem.

The problem is common enough with the newer compact model slides in the 10mm models.

Not sure if the full size models have any type of similar problem.

saturno_v
July 31, 2009, 01:51 AM
The witness compact is a prior favorite that has turned many off on the entire line. The compact EAA witness had a slide change. The newer slides have more metal removed and are known to crack on a good number of people, especially from full power 10mm loads. Loads well within SAAMI specs.
The compact Witness appears to be exactly what many are looking for in a compact package. So once they crack it is pretty disappointing.
The older slides with more steel did not seem to be known for the problem.

The problem is common enough with the newer compact model slides in the 10mm models.

Not sure if the full size models have any type of similar problem.

Exactly right

All the new Witness (full size and compact) have the rounded top slide and they crack using full house 10 mm loads....only the Match model (SA) and I think the Hunter model use the old squared style slide which I heard it does not have the cracking problem if properly sprung.

This is the reason why I do not consider the EAA Witness (at least the basic models full size and compact) "true" 10 mm handguns...they can handle only the FBI loads (equivalent to a hot 40 S&W)

EAA is adamant about this...absolutely no Corbon, Double Tap or Buffalo Bore....once the gunsmith told me that even the Winchester Silvertips are borderline...penalty (if they can prove it) is the suspension of the warranty.

On top of that the EAA Customer Service is non-existant...


Basically I gave up on EAA.....excellent pistols if they could fix the issues...

Brian Williams
July 31, 2009, 09:48 AM
I can't hunt with a Semi in PA so this is about useless for me, so I carry a 357 in a revolver to do what I need done.

sqlbullet
July 31, 2009, 10:33 AM
EAA and Tanfoglio have started to acknowledge problems with heat treatment since Saturno's terrible experience. I have read more recent reports of customers seeing less than 1 week turn around on fixes for cracked slides, with none of the nasty accusations about 'over-pressure' ammo.

I have had neither experience.

As I said above, the entire Elite line of witness guns retains the old slide profile. This includes the Match, Stock, Limited, Stock Limited and Stock 2, as well as the Hunter.

I don't want to sound like a pitchman for EAA, although I may. I do want to support the 10mm guns that EAA brings to market that do work. As we have mentioned, there is a dearth of hi-capacity 10mm options. Glock, STI, SVI and EAA are it. The STI and SVI are out of many peoples budget, as may be the high end Tanfoglio. But the Match and the Stock are excellent values, and the slide design the carry is well known to be solid.

If I had been through Saturno's experience, I may feel different. But, I don't want to see them dropped from an already slim market because they really screwed up in this instance. I am avoiding any of the scalloped slides from EAA. But, I am a strong advocate of their designs that do work, and hope the day will come that EAA has a strong CS reputation, or the Tanfoglio guns are picked up by a different importer.

JonB
July 31, 2009, 10:51 AM
There's also the fact that most people carry auto pistols for use against 2 legged predators. For that, the .45 or .40 are "enough". Especially when you consider quick follow up shots and the risks of over penetration.

Quick follow up is the same in a Glock 21 (.45) and Glock 20 (10mm) - at least in my experience. I have small hands but still shoot a Glock 20 easy enough, but the 1911 style 10mms fit better. I hand load for 10mm which reduces costs to acceptable levels and I can load middle of the road for target work, and full power for HD/SD. Not that it matters unless you are hunting with the 10mm. A mid-power load is just as effective for 2-legged threats as a full power load (potentially more accurate too depending on what the gun likes)

My wish is for a Springfield XD10!

sqlbullet
July 31, 2009, 11:00 AM
I would definitely buy an XDm 10!

HexHead
July 31, 2009, 11:12 AM
The 10mm Auto is essentially the .357 Magnum in an auto.

Hmmm, I've always heard the .38 Super described that way.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
July 31, 2009, 11:13 AM
Yeah, but since I'm not an idiot, I opt for effectiveness over delusion

ArmedBear DOES have a way with words. :D

Gryffydd
July 31, 2009, 12:28 PM
I would definitely buy an XDm 10!
+1 I'd snatch one up ASAP if they ever did it.
Hmmm, I've always heard the .38 Super described that way.
The .38 Super doesn't come anywhere close to the .357 Mag. Heck, it can't even keep up with the .357 Sig, which also falls far short of the .357 Mag.

Z-Michigan
July 31, 2009, 01:17 PM
Few semi-auto users want more power?? Are they wimpy??

Please post your winning IDPA, IPSC, or Bullseye scores here... missing with a powerful round is no better than missing with a less powerful round.

The 10 mm Auto is a fantastic high power compact caliber, perfect for light wood protection...

I don't often get attacked by trees.

The revolver almost equivalent of that round, the 357 Mag, is everywhere....

Common loads of .40 S&W compare very well with common loads of .357 Magnum. Max loads of each, like from Buffalo Bore, also compare fairly well, though .357 Magnum has the edge. To get really amazing performance out of .357 Mag requires longer barrels that don't carry well. And .40 picks up a fair bit of speed in a 5" or 6" barrel also. Really heavy loads of .357 Magnum don't increase its effect on human targets, and are still lighter than recommended for brown bears. They are good for deer at short ranges, of course. Who needs more than 6 shots to hunt one deer?

Can someone solve the mistery for me??

The "mistery" of spell check?

mljdeckard
July 31, 2009, 01:22 PM
The Glock isn't the only one, what about the STI Perfect Ten? It's more than I plan on spending, but......WOW.

sqlbullet
July 31, 2009, 01:26 PM
Max loads of each, like from Buffalo Bore, also compare fairly well, though .357 Magnum has the edge.

I would consider 200 fps out of a 4" barrel more than an 'edge' Compare the 180 and 200 grain loads at doubletap for these calibers. The 357 Mag well above the 40S&W.

ArmedBear
July 31, 2009, 01:31 PM
I would consider 200 fps out of a 4" barrel more than an 'edge' Compare the 180 and 200 grain loads at doubletap for these calibers. The 357 Mag well above the 40S&W.


Ditto.

Note also that many revolver shooters don't shoot factory ammo much.

I wouldn't subject a semiauto to what we routinely load for stout revolvers, nor would I trust most semis to feed the sharp-shouldered LSWC hardcast bullets that I carry on the trail, especially alternating with snake loads.

Like I said, my "serious" trail gun is a .44, not a .357, and these comparisons of a middling revolver round with the hottest stuff in common semiautos just really don't give a realistic picture.

The reason someone might want a .357 is its ammo versatility for different uses, not because it's "better" than a 10mm when both are loaded hot. How many .357s get a diet of 100% full-power ammo?

When you compare a .357 to a 10mm, you're comparing the quintessential all-around revolver with a high-powered, specialized semi. Apples and oranges.:)

Gryffydd
July 31, 2009, 01:38 PM
Max loads of each, like from Buffalo Bore, also compare fairly well
If The 10mm barely manages to tie the .357 in its top loadings the .40 S&W doesn't stand a chance.
I don't often get attacked by trees.
Do you really not know what "light woods protection" means, or are you just being an immature smart aleck?

I would consider 200 fps out of a 4" barrel more than an 'edge'
Out of a 4" barrel the .357 is 340 fps faster than the .40 is out of a 4.9" barrel, both with 180gr bullets. That's a 30% difference.

The "mistery" of spell check?
Just can't keep it on topic, can you?

Z-Michigan
July 31, 2009, 02:37 PM
Do you really not know what "light woods protection" means, or are you just being an immature smart aleck?

Where I am, in one of the most forested states east of the Rockies, I could live in the woods year-round without needing protection against anything larger than a mean opossum, or possibly a meth-head. So no, I really don't know what the OP meant by "light woods protection." If you mean defense against brown bears, say so. Say what you mean, don't use personal euphemisms that are unclear to other people.

As for my general tenor, so many of these threads seem to be written by people (teenagers?) who seem to have big ideas and strong biases without seeming to have real knowledge of the subject that they are pontificating about. I'll leave it at that, as it's not my intent that this become some sort of grudge match.

Gryffydd
July 31, 2009, 02:52 PM
who seem to have big ideas and strong biases without seeming to have real knowledge of the subject that they are pontificating about
You mean like the ones saying the 40 S&W is comparable to the 357 Mag?

If you mean defense against brown bears, say so.
I'm really not sure who would consider brown bears when the term Light woods protection comes up. You see, there are lots of different kinds of animals. There are black bears, cougars, feral hogs, rabid skunks/coyotes/bobcats/50 other species that aren't normally dangerous but will attack when rabid. There are snakes, there are 2 legged predators, there are aggressive domestic dogs (see Harlold Fish)....But let's go ahead and worry about the trees.

Col. Plink
July 31, 2009, 03:02 PM
Get something that shoots 7.62x25 Tokarev, like a CZ-52.

Zoogster
July 31, 2009, 03:13 PM
what about the STI Perfect Ten
That does look like a sweet hunting sidearm. A little large to carry for just protection while doing a lot of hiking, and certainly expensive.


None of the new cool stuff makes it onto the CA approved list. (Still waiting for a SCOTUS ruling that makes it unconstitutional.)

Z-Michigan
July 31, 2009, 03:55 PM
I'm really not sure who would consider brown bears when the term Light woods protection comes up. You see, there are lots of different kinds of animals. There are black bears, cougars, feral hogs, rabid skunks/coyotes/bobcats/50 other species that aren't normally dangerous but will attack when rabid. There are snakes, there are 2 legged predators, there are aggressive domestic dogs (see Harlold Fish)....But let's go ahead and worry about the trees.

You seem to have proven my point that the term is either meaningless or, at best, does not have a common and well-known meaning.

And I'd feel fine with a .40 or .45 against everything on that list, except feral hogs and perhaps cougars.

Gryffydd
July 31, 2009, 04:05 PM
And I'd feel fine with a .40 or .45 against everything on that list, except feral hogs and perhaps cougar
You'd be OK with a .40 or .45 against a black bear but not a cougar? :scrutiny:


Yes, it's a broad term because it's a broad subject--making the term rather precise in that it reflects what it describes. But it's also one that obviously does not include trees, and logically does not include brown bear. I don't think anybody else here had any trouble figuring out what he was referring to.

saturno_v
July 31, 2009, 09:03 PM
Z-Michigan


Maybe I need to use a spell check more often (talking about teenager remarks huh???!! :rolleyes:) but you need to learn a bit more about ballistics...

A full spec 40 S&W almost equivalent to a full spec 357 Magnum???!!! Dream on buddy......and by the way I carry a .40 regularly, I know the caliber very well so save the pontification, to use your own term...

Light wood protection means just that...defense against cougars, a small black bear, yotes, etc... far more comon than brownies in this corner of the lower 48...do I have to make some drawings for you to understand better???

I don't know where do you live in the Rockies but I can tell you that just in the area where I live (Snohomish western WA) we had 3 cougar attack in the last 6 months...

And I hike a lot so I know what I'm talking about....

Z-Michigan
August 1, 2009, 08:16 PM
Just FYI... if you go to the Hodgdon reloading data center, which covers three of the biggest powder brands (Hodgdon, IMR, and Winchester), they show the following maximum load velocities for two common .40 bullet weights:

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

155gr
.40 S&W = 1283fps
10mm = 1362fps
difference = 79fps

180gr
.40 S&W = 1159fps
10mm = 1287fps
difference = 128fps

I have not, of course, tried to verify these velocities. Also, while Hodgon doesn't indicate the test barrel lengths for either caliber, it would be customary to use a 4" test barrel for .40 S&W and a 5" test barrel for 10mm, and you can assume that the .40 S&W would pick up significant extra velocity if given an extra inch of barrel.

I live in Michigan, as indicated by my username and profile.

I would feel better about .40 against black bear than against large cats for the reasons discussed in the other thread (to which I have nothing to add).

10mm is a neat round, but if I were anticipating dangerous animals I'd prefer a .44 Magnum revolver, and if I'm just carrying for general protection and not with a specific threat, I'd rather have 15rds (or more) of 9mm or .40 in a lighter, smaller pistol.

22-rimfire
August 1, 2009, 08:40 PM
Nothing over 45ACP sells in the semi-auto lines. If I were a manufacturer and had made a 10mm, I produce a batch or two per year and hope they sell.

For me, I have no need for a 10mm pistol as I have revolvers that fit that niche.
you have more firepower....

Maybe, but I don't feel I need it. If I carry a gun for bear protection, it will be a 357 mag or 41 mag. If I am honestly trying to protect against really large bears, I'd carry a rifle and keep my 41 mag in its holster for a just in case scenario.

I have often thought about getting something in 10mm and 45GAP. But, other needs take a higher priority then a gun right now and that is likely not to change anytime in the next couple of years.

SharpsDressedMan
August 1, 2009, 10:32 PM
There used to be federal regs limiting guns to .50 or less, or they would need to be registered as "destructive devices".

Zoogster
August 1, 2009, 11:42 PM
There used to be federal regs limiting guns to .50 or less, or they would need to be registered as "destructive devices".

Used to be?

That started in 1968 by adding destructive devices to the 1934 NFA. Along with AOWs.

It is still the case today. Shotguns are given an exemption under law, but the ATF has shown they can make any shotgun (most are over .50) illegal overnight be declaring it "unsporting". No additional legislation required. A great example that they do in fact make law, just by re-interpreting existing law, or previous interpretations at any time.
Rifled calibers in modern smokeless platforms above .50 are considered destructive devices. Rifled shotguns are an oddity. Many were unsure if they would be declared illegal initially, but over time they became popular and that fear subsided.

Essentially the feds have demonstrated absolute power over all guns over .50 and can give sporting exemptions, hunting exemptions, or even just outlaw the firearms that use them regardless of caliber or cartridge. Such was the case with the Amsel striker and Street Sweeper rotating cylinder shotguns.
There is a number of over .50 cartridges given big game hunting exemptions. Which means firearms chambered in those calibers are not destructive devices.

Since a shotgun is legally a shoulder fired weapon under federal law, non shoulder fired shotguns are technically legally not shotguns. Also under federal law a pistol must be rifled or it becomes an AOW, so no smoothbores.
There are some pistol grip shotguns, but they generally have a barrel over 18" if not an NFA item.
.410 shotguns are under .50 so they are different.
Any rifle or pistol chambered in over .50 if it is not an exempt cartridge is a destructive device. (or meets other exemptions like being a muzzle loader etc)

SharpsDressedMan
August 2, 2009, 02:04 AM
Thanks, Zoogster. I didn't have time to search out current law, so didn't want to "quote" things for sure. As you stated, the NFA branch definitions get a little confusing at times.

Holgersen
August 2, 2009, 09:31 AM
Someone might have already said this but I really don't want to read through 4 pages of blog so I'm just going to say it.

I'm pretty sure for most glocks and Springfield XDs you can get a replacement .400 corbon barrel for their .45 lines of handguns. It is supposed to mimick the 10mm in power kind of like the .357 sig is supposed to mimick the .357 magnum. I think you can even use the same .45 magazines.

I might be wrong about the magazines, but the barrels aren't that expensive and you would have the power you are looking for.

Mello
August 2, 2009, 05:37 PM
saturno_v

Why the majority of semi-auto manufacturers stops at 45 ACP-40 S&W???
Basically if you want to go over the power level of 45-40 there is a big void...good luck to you...

Up to 45 and 40 the offering is limitless, every conceivable size, action, metal, polymer etc....

So why the vast majority of semi auto ends at 45-40 power levels???

Few semi-auto users want more power?? Are they wimpy??

Can someone solve the mistery for me??

I can only guess at the choices of others, so . . . . .

I guess the manufacturers do not perceive that there is sufficient market demand/profit in producing 10mm auto models. Maybe the production of the Fortis Bren Ten will stir up some interest in the 10mm auto.

Personally the Colt Delta Elite has been my choice for concealed carry for over two decades. I have shot over 10,000 full powered rounds through it. The 10mm auto is a great compromise in size, weight, diameter, penetration, power, recoil, trajectory, and accuracy. It is the most powerful cartridge that I can competently shoot as a defensive cartridge. Since I hand load I can load up to max or load down the power.

I chronographed some DoubleTap ammo recently through it. I was disappointed in the velocity average. DoubleTap claims that their 200gr Controlled Expansion JHP produces 1250fps / 694ft lbs. muzzle - Glock 20 (4.6" bbl). From my Delta Elite (5" bbl) the average velocity (10 rounds) at 10' at 88 degrees F was 1075 fps.

wally
August 2, 2009, 06:03 PM
One factor not to be ignored for people that shoot a lot and reload is that 10mm guns launch the brass a ridiculously long distance compared to 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP. Where I shoot it means I lose most of it most of the time. Negates all the extra fun 10mm has over the others.

I've got EAA Elite Match, Delta Elite, and Glock 20SF. They all throw the brass or even the lower powered CCI aluminum Blazer empties at least three times further than the others. Only my TT33 comes close in terms of mean distance of empties from the gun, but it shoots cheap non-reloadable surplus ammo so it doesn't much matter.

Its the loss of brass that makes most of my 10mm shooting be the CCI Blazer.

--wally.

Z-Michigan
August 3, 2009, 12:15 AM
Wally-

Some shooting ranges have a screen available to put up to the right of your station, to catch empties and make them drop neatly. It is basically window screening in a frame that can be hung from the overhead supports or lane dividers. The main purpose of the screen is to avoid hitting the guy next to you with empties, but it would also save the brass for you. If it's more like a home range you could probably build a portable screen to use.

Bishop.357
August 4, 2009, 08:32 AM
The 10mm is a fine round and no doubt we'll soon see alot more companies offering the products you want. As to why you mostly find .40S&W and .45acp its because these rounds are more then adequate for the purposes that so many of us use them for. If you want more power so bad buy a gun chambered for .357Sig, or start making power-house handloads. As for walking around the woods,if you come up against something with teeth shot placment is far more important then superpower ammo. Hell, a decent 9mm will kill a grizzly if you unload into something vital.

wally
August 5, 2009, 12:09 AM
Wally-

Some shooting ranges have a screen available to put up to the right of your station, to catch empties and make them drop neatly. It is basically window screening in a frame that can be hung from the overhead supports or lane dividers

Our club has pistol bays for IPSC-like practice, a covered 10yr range with tables for sight adjustment, and a couple of plate racks. None have lanes or dividers. Its a great place to shoot, and I rarely lose a significant amount brass except when shooting 10mm.

--wally.

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