9mm..."back" on top?


PDA






DFW1911
August 1, 2009, 12:25 PM
Have you noticed that since the sun-setting of the AWB, manufacturers have been introducing - and we've been buying - many new hi-cap 9mm models? Sure, the lines (XD, M&P,others) have other calibers, but there seems to be something of a movement toward 9mm (Ruger SR9 is one example).

It reminds me of the high-capacity craziness that was occurring right before the ban. We went to them in droves, and at least cursory information would suggest the 9mm became the choice as a personal sidearm.

I don't know, maybe it's just me and nothing is really happening, but is sure seems manufacturers of both pistols and mags (Mec Gar) are trying to jam as many 9mm rounds as possible into the handgun. The XD(m) comes to mind, as do 15 shot mags for the BHP.

So the question: are you moving to a high-cap 9mm to replace your current CCW/HD/SD/LEO sidearm, or are you sticking with a .357 Sig / .40 / .45 with reasonable but still lower capacity?

Final note, I think the advancements in the designs of 9mm HD rounds have helped reduce the "9mm is useless for SD applications" sort of arguments.

Your thoughts?

DFW1911

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm..."back" on top?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Marlin 45 carbine
August 1, 2009, 12:37 PM
I agree somewhat. seems fellas I know have bought the hi-cap 9mm alloy frame and steel slide models though. not as many buyng the plastic.
fiber optic front sights seem to be popular.

mljdeckard
August 1, 2009, 12:39 PM
I don't pretend to really keep track of such things, but I will certainly say that the ban had a lot to do with 1911 style pistols getting a resurgence in popularity. Those who were worried about capacity suddenly had no (less) choice anyway.

I don't know if the ban really made that much difference to manufacturers. Remember, even if sales of hi-caps to civilians were limited, they still wanted to design the weapon for full-cap for police use. I can only think of Kahr for pistols that came out in that timeframe that were designed with lower capacity. Pretty much everything else was sold with a big follower in the mag.

Yo Mama
August 1, 2009, 12:49 PM
9mm..."back" on top?


Nope. .45 will always be the king! :D

DMK
August 1, 2009, 01:09 PM
I think that the introduction of very small 9mm CCW type handguns has had a lot to do with more 9mm popularity as well.

Myself, I'm waiting until Ruger comes out with an SR40.

Taurus has the 24/7 in all three major calibers and Springfield has the XD chambered in them as well.

Sam1911
August 1, 2009, 01:16 PM
I just won an xDM 9mm in a drawing. I'll use it in gun games, but I have no intention of ever carrying it. The 1911 still does what I need for social work and is slim and pleasant for carrying, and the 629 is great for woods/hiking.

There do not seem to be any situations that could qualify as even remotely likely where I would need 58 rds (three mags + 1 in the chamber) of 9mm to defend myself out in my part of the world. Situations where I might need 1-5 rds of .45 ACP are a bit more common. I carry 25 of those and consider the quantity need more than met.

(If I didn't have a .45, I'd feel plenty well defended with a 9mm, though.)

-Sam

bikerdoc
August 1, 2009, 01:21 PM
9mm, 45, 40, 357, Got them all. what do I shoot the best?
9mm CZ 75 compact, 14 plus 1 is very comforting.

JBritton
August 1, 2009, 01:41 PM
Don't know about every one else but in my part of the country the availability/cost of the ammo was one of the two reasons I got one. The second reason is that, in my simple little mind at least, the 9mm is affordable for regular practice sessions and to have as home defense. My 92FS is definitely the smoothest and most fun and accurate (for me). I'm very glad I bought it. That being said, beside my bed is a .45.

Vern Humphrey
August 1, 2009, 02:56 PM
So the question: are you moving to a high-cap 9mm to replace your current CCW/HD/SD/LEO sidearm, or are you sticking with a .357 Sig / .40 / .45 with reasonable but still lower capacity?
I still carry a Kimber Classic in .45, with Chip McCormic Shooting Star 8-round magazines.

cyclopsshooter
August 1, 2009, 03:00 PM
if you need more than three bullets you're dead

hi cap is for law enforcement and mall ninjas

let the flaming begin

DRYHUMOR
August 1, 2009, 03:08 PM
On a related side note. Walmart must have negotiated a very good contract with Federal Ammo. The 9mm red box I bought the other day was only $8 and change. Less than $9 for a box of 50. ;)

I'm still waiting to eyeball and handle a Taurus PT1911 in 9mm, whenever they get off their butts and let it out.

That reminds me, I need to go and shoot some of that ammo I picked up the other day. :D

dom1104
August 1, 2009, 03:15 PM
"you only need 3 rounds or your dead"


You know, for a nation of people the very nearly went into economic meltdown last winter, I would think we would think more to the future being more than just random crime perpetrated by single attackers.

I fully expect group / gang activity to be on the increase if unemployement stays high.

And if 4 guys come at me with baseball bats, I would like to have more than 3 rounds :) in fact, 3 each sounds good.

People seem to think, how it is now is how it always will be.

Well your chance of needing your gun now is about the same as being hit by lightning. It wont always be that way.

/ominous voice off :)

ArmedBear
August 1, 2009, 03:21 PM
I knew people in California whose only reason for buying a .40 was that they figured, if they can only have ten, might as well have more powerful rounds.

I'm not surprised that the expiration of the Clinton ban has led to a resurgence in the popularity of spray and pray the 9mm round.:D

Also, the boom in CC has undoubtedly led to a change in the guns on buyers' consideration list. Had you told someone in the 1980s that .38 Specials would be selling like hotcakes in 2009, and that Americans would be buying a healthy number of .380 autos, they wouldn't have believed you.:)

AKElroy
August 1, 2009, 03:41 PM
hi cap is for law enforcement and mall ninjas

Exactly. Clearly all shooting situations by LE are always entirely different than anything a "civilian" would ever face, because armed bad guys take more .40 cal bullets to put down when facing police than they would from my gun. Makes perfect sense; especially when my limited training (by comparison) makes me a better shot.

Dude--

mljdeckard
August 1, 2009, 05:23 PM
Absolutely. ^^

If you know you won't need more than three, I suppose that's all you carry, right?

I was in a shop a while ago in SLC, and a guy was looking at a new Remington AR-10, and a hunter-type was observing and said, "You shouldn't need more than one shot." I said; "Absolutely. Don't buy any magazines."

If you want to be REALLY technical, no one NEEDS anything more than a single-shot muzzle-loading pistol. All advancements since then have been.....superfluous. :)

AKElroy
August 1, 2009, 05:58 PM
I was in a shop a while ago in SLC, and a guy was looking at a new Remington AR-10, and a hunter-type was observing and said, "You shouldn't need more than one shot." I said; "Absolutely. Don't buy any magazines."

I occasssionaly hunt deer with a single shot, but if I miss, I am not concerned with bambi shooting back, or climbing 10 feet up a ladder into my stand.

My CCW is a G27 in the strong side pocket, and two loaded mags in the weak side pocket. Don't likely need 28 rnds, but I don't likely need a gun either. Just like the gun itself, the additional rounds simply answer the "what if" factor. They also balance my pants.

cchris
August 1, 2009, 07:52 PM
I was in a shop a while ago in SLC, and a guy was looking at a new Remington AR-10, and a hunter-type was observing and said, "You shouldn't need more than one shot." I said; "Absolutely. Don't buy any magazines."

Magazines never wear out over time?

Vern Humphrey
August 1, 2009, 07:55 PM
Magazines never wear out over time?
The point he's making is if you only need one shot, you don't need a magazine.

TheMerryMortician
August 1, 2009, 08:52 PM
I've been debating between getting a new 9mm or a .45 myself. I ultimately decided on the 9, because the rounds are cheaper, which enables me to practice more, and the fact that 9mm is so much easier to find. A good, high pressure 9mm can be more than effective in a self-defense situation...it's all about placement.

PT1911
August 1, 2009, 08:59 PM
get a sword, that is all you need.

musick
August 1, 2009, 09:05 PM
Don't know about every one else but in my part of the country the availability/cost of the ammo was one of the two reasons I got one...

That was a big factor in my choice of said round as well. The more popular the caliber, the more manufactured and the lower the cost.

My follow up shoots are much faster w/ 9mm over .40 as well.

SharpsDressedMan
August 1, 2009, 09:25 PM
Something that doesn't get discussed much is the need for a scond magazine, no matter what auto pistol you are carrying. Some choose the hi-cap auto to alleviate the need to have a backup magazine. Sure, a 13-17 round auto has lots of rounds, UNLESS you accidentally eject your mag at the wrong time, or it malfunctions according to Murphy's Law. Two very good reasons for a backup mag, which also puts the 6-10 round guns back on the worthy list as strong competitors to the hi-cap guns. What's it take, 2 seconds max to reload? Most gunfights will give you 2 seconds, especially if the use of cover has been opportunized. Is the 9mm experiencing a resurgence in popularity? I think it is, but it might be the result of many new gun owners getting a gun they feel they can handle (not every newbie jumps on the .40/.45 bandwagon at first). A 9mm is now the "standard" that the .38 Special used to be, and ammo is more widely available than .40's and .45's. At a time we are experiencing an ammo crunch, it means buying a gun you can get ammo more easily FOR. On another note, I have NEVER worn out a magazine, yet.

Dr_2_B
August 1, 2009, 09:58 PM
without opening up the caliber-war can-o-worms, I have noticed in the last couple years that a lot more people on this site believe the 9 will get it done. More and more the consensus seems to be to pick the one you like the best.

musick
August 1, 2009, 10:35 PM
without opening up the caliber-war can-o-worms....

I too am trying NOT to open that can either. But here is some food for thought:

http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv169/mytravelpage/calibers.jpg

I am in the shot placement is of more importance than choice of caliber camp. My groupings and follow ups are faster FOR ME (YMMV) when using 9 over a 45.

Or maybe we should all toss our handguns and get a Katana instead: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNiX_l-HEGM
:D

DRYHUMOR
August 2, 2009, 06:44 AM
When it comes to practice costs, the .22 is the cheapest route to go. Best of both worlds is to put a .22 upper on your 9mm carry weapon (if possible) and go from there.

IT IS shot placement that's key. I have 9's and 45's, I'm basically the same level of accurate between either. The variable is the accuracy of the particular weapon.

scotthsi
August 2, 2009, 12:01 PM
The point he's making is if you only need one shot, you don't need a magazine.

Unless the pistol has a magazine disconnect. ;)

DFW1911
August 2, 2009, 01:27 PM
Well, something must be going on.

Here's some anecdotal "evidence" I went to the gun show in Mesquite yesterday (will post rant under General) and could find precisely...2 P250 9mm mags...oh, both at $50 a piece. Could be a distribution issue on Sig's part, maybe something else, like they underestimated demand for that product.

I talked to several vendors. They said they can't keep that model or mags on the shelf. I went to Bud's (in Dallas) and they were of the same opinion, though I did manage to buy their last 3 (and a nice Don Hume holster - first holster from Hume for me - very impressed so far).

I have switched to carrying a P250 on a daily basis. I really like it: one of the best, no, the best, factory DAO triggers I've ever pulled.

So to tie this rant into my original post: the P250 w/ 2 mags, each w/ 15 rounds gives me 45. Man, that's just a lot. But as one of the other posters pointed out who knows how many rounds you'll need - ever.

Of note: I've been carrying any of my 1911 models with less and less frequency. I'm not sure if it's a weight thing or if it has to do with the fact that it's been so hot and so humid in DFW recently and it's tougher to conceal w/ fewer clothes on. The P250 w/ 1 mag is so much easier to conceal than what, ~ 40 ozs. of 1911 plus 2 mags? Of course a J frame remains the easiest to conceal while wearing a t-shirt and shorts (or the like).

Let's see what happens when "jacket weather" moves in.

Final note: I always carry at least 1 spare mag to allow for Murphy's law, as another poster pointed out. I prefer two to help w/ weight balance.

Thanks,
DFW1911

PS: Carrying the P250 is a bold move on my part. My S/O loves it, and I'm meekly reclaiming it by passive means. I tell her it's a good idea in case I'm incapacitated and she needs to keep up the good fight. Actually there may be some truth to that :)

weisse52
August 2, 2009, 01:46 PM
I will continue to use a .45. I own two 9mm, one a P08 my father brought back from WWII, the second a Sig P226 I picked up as part of a down payment on a Jeep I sold.

I will keep the P08 till I die, the P226 could be gone in the drop of a hat. I may keep it just to have something to shoot 9MM with, but then it would be gone in a heartbeat in trade for a Colt. (just in case someone is looking);)

Some will say the .45 got a new life when the orginal AWB came in and people went with the bigger round instead of fewer 9mm.

Shoot what you trust. For it is worth, I do not care what charts and graphs you pull out. A .45 ACP will always top a 9mm.

Flame on.....

Mikhail Weiss
August 2, 2009, 02:04 PM
I have no problem using 9mm for self defense, and I switched to a high-capacity 9mm from a low-capacity .45 for a couple of reasons. One, I found myself increasingly encountering larger groups of questionable characters in my once-upon-a-time occupation; two, the increasing price of .45ACP ammunition outstripped my ability to justify its cost when balanced against the amount of shooting practice that I wanted. I already had a 9mm, so the switch was easy. Nowadays, temporarily unemployed (at least I hope it's temporary), cost is the foremost deciding factor.

earlthegoat2
August 2, 2009, 03:43 PM
I seems that more people are going to lower capicity guns if you include 380s.

Of course I like my 380s in the high capicity form of a Beretta 84 or Browning BDA.

Vern Humphrey
August 2, 2009, 04:17 PM
I seems that more people are going to lower capicity guns if you include 380s.
In fact there are a heck of a lot of pocket guns coming on the market -- the Ruger LCP and LCR being examples -- which are lower capacity.

wally
August 2, 2009, 04:49 PM
My follow up shoots are much faster w/ 9mm over .40 as well.

Think how much faster still they'd be with a .22! :evil:


I shoot lot of 9mm because its cheap. I carry the most powerful round I can conceal, usually a Kahr PM40 or SC360 .357Mag, occasionally its cold enough for the Kimber Ultra carry, and sometimes the Kel-Tec P3AT is all I can hide.

First rule of the gun fight -- Have a gun!
Second rule -- you can't miss fast enough to win.

At the range I like high capacity so I spend more time shooting less time stuffing mags, but for carry its about the bottom of the list in importance.

If I knew I was gonna need a gun I would be wasting my time carrying a handgun I'd go straight for the rifle or shotgun depending on the expected engagement distances.

--wally.

HorseSoldier
August 2, 2009, 05:08 PM
The XD(m) comes to mind, as do 15 shot mags for the BHP.


You may be on to something, though with the High Power I don't think it's any different than the general switch to eight round 1911 magazines from 7 rounders. Modest tweak that ups performance a bit.

doc2rn
August 2, 2009, 08:38 PM
The best 9mm round ever made was the .380 or 9mm Kurtz, big upswing in demand for ammo. The biggest part was how many rounds we wanted to keep on hand vs supply that wasnt there do to current production for war. That said the ammo companies paid $ when they negotiated when metals where high last summer. Now that they negotiated at a better rate we will start to see improved production. Problem with 45 was it took so much raw material to make.
I am recoil sensitive and 380 is really tops for me, due to medical reasons. I can get by with 45 but I am also short and fat and it doesnt hide as well on me anymore so I stick with my Sig 232.

DFW1911
August 3, 2009, 12:55 PM
I don't pretend to really keep track of such things, but I will certainly say that the ban had a lot to do with 1911 style pistols getting a resurgence in popularity.

I agree with this, which is really one of the foundations of my observation. Now that hi-caps are backs...in droves...it seems that the 1911 craze has either cooled or is cooling.

Again, that's based on anecdotal evidence and multi-media observation.

Thanks,
DFW1911

m2steven
August 3, 2009, 10:05 PM
For me, I love to shoot. My 1911 is one of my favorites, it shoots beautifully and comfortably, and expensively. Not overwhelmingly so, but money is money. Yesterday I purchased 3 boxes of 9mm for the price of 1 box of average 45. Had a blast. Also, I received 5 boxes of 380 I ordered about 2 months ago :) and it was pretty inexpensive ($15 a box). Someone had placed a few concrete blocks at the end of the range for long range practice and one was intact. I split it into 2 blocks with 2 shots of my 45.

I split those 2 pieces into 4 with my 9mm. That took a clip. I turned those into about 8 with my 380 with about the same effort as with my 9mm.

Sure, the 45 is the best round of the bunch, but on a human I trust the capacity and energy of the 9mm and 380 to take care of me. The full sized 9mm is a very potent round. A +P 380 is a more than adequate round.

All the above to illustrate why I think 9mm is selling well. It's a great round, highly available for practice, comes in many varieties (there are more 380 high energy rounds than I can count due to the popularity of the small carry 380 pistols), and hits hard.

So that's my opinion. 9mm is cheap, potent, and there are enough varieties of pressure to provide many options for self defense. It's my favorite round. I love my
40cal Glock, but I think the extra noise and recoil would be distracting during an actual encounter. Judging from an ear protection mistake I made a few weeks ago, the first shot with a 45 is going to hit your ears like a baseball bat, and it will be distracting, perhaps to the point of being fatal.

wrs840
August 3, 2009, 10:20 PM
I love 9mm autos, because it's what my wife likes to shoot and she's darn good with my BHP or her 5904. I use a .40, but I'm still a better shot with a full-size 9. Ear abuse suffered in an indoor situation, I'll admit, is what diminished my enthusiasm for a .45 a few years back.

Les

razorback2003
August 4, 2009, 02:39 AM
For centerfire autopistol, I like 9mm because the ammo is the cheapest. The cheaper the ammo, the more I can shoot. If I could afford it, I would purchase a nice 45. The problem is FEEDING the 45! That is the part I would go broke on real quick. I am at a point to where I am shooting a 22LR pistol and rifle just to save money due to being unemployed myself for several months.

armoredman
August 4, 2009, 03:27 AM
I cast and reload, and love shooting and carrying a 9mm. Of course, I also carry a 38 on occaision too, and don't feel naked.

DFW1911
August 4, 2009, 09:12 AM
Of course, I also carry a 38 on occasion too, and don't feel naked.

Great point. For me, the J-frames and their copies (Taurus, etc) are the most comfortable to carry, esp if an airweight and esp if it's about 106 degrees with 95% humidity.

What's intereting to me is that when I do carry a 5-shot .38, I have a total of 15 rounds available. Most any of my double stack 9mms have that (or more) in one magazine.

Depending on you POV, what you CCW is really sacrificing "comfort" of one kind for "comfort" of another.

Madcap_Magician
August 4, 2009, 10:54 AM
I think the reason why was that if all magazines were limited to ten rounds, there was no point in taking a smaller round in the same sized gun. Without the limit, suddenly instead of choosing between rounds of varying power with the same number of rounds, you could pick a slightly less powerful--yet adequate-- round, and have 15-20 of them in a mag instead of 7-13.

razorback2003
August 4, 2009, 10:57 AM
I like to shoot my 22 pistol and 9mm Glock 19, but when it comes to carrying in public, I usually go for my little 642 38 Special. I live a pretty low threat lifestyle and am not a police officer tracking down crooks for a living. I figure in a robber situation a 642 will work just fine. 5 rounds should do the trick.

Logos
August 4, 2009, 04:23 PM
To a certain extent, I think people just FINALLY quit believing the propaganda that the 9mm was a weak round.

Highly respected people like Jeff Cooper had loudly ranted for 40 years that the 9mm was no good.

It took time for people to get over that, but it seems they have.

Sapper771
August 4, 2009, 07:46 PM
I like to carry as many rounds as I can possibly (and comfortably) carry, just for the simple knowledge that they are there if I need them. I hope i dont need them, but like the old saying goes : "better to have and not need then need and not have".

A Gentleman in another thread posted a link to an officer involved shooting where an Officer was forced to shoot a suspect following a stop for suspicious activity. The Officer shot the suspect 22 times with a Glock 22 .40cal pistol. 17 of those 22 rounds struck the suspect center of mass. I think I found the link to the story:

http://www.tucsonshooting.com/News_Detail.php?g=news1230882098

I bet that Officer was glad he had more than three rounds. I am betting he was glad he had more than one magazine. My point is that we never know what we will face from day to day. We do not get the luxury of forseeing danger or trials. The best thing we can do is prepare to face those trials.

As far as 9mm back on top, i dont know . I like 9mm, and I have carry 9mm BHP in the past without fear of "under power" due to cartridge. I would prefer that the 9mm be high capacity. If I dont need those extra ten rounds, oh well, they were there if needed.
I recently picked up a XDm in 9mm so I could see if they were as good as the reviews say they are. It is a nice little shooter, accurate, and reliable so far . The trigger needs some work in the mooshy pull and the long reset. I like the fact that the XDm carries 19 rounds per magazine. I like 9mm because I can shoot it cheaper. For WWB, 9mm is $20 per 100 rounds. For WWB, 45acp is $30 per 100. The cost of ammo may not be such an issue to those who reload, but not everyone reloads.
Given the choice between 9mm and 45, I would take the 45....but I wouldnt frown on the 9mm either.

DFW1911
August 5, 2009, 09:02 AM
I think the reason why was that if all magazines were limited to ten rounds, there was no point in taking a smaller round in the same sized gun. Without the limit, suddenly instead of choosing between rounds of varying power with the same number of rounds, you could pick a slightly less powerful--yet adequate-- round, and have 15-20 of them in a mag instead of 7-13.

I believe that is the crux of the issue. During the AWB period, I mainly carried an 8+1 1911.

With those restrictions now lifted, I'm carrying higher-capacity and, ultimately, lower-weight smaller-framed firearms, mainly in 9mm.

Thanks,
DFW1911

SharpsDressedMan
August 5, 2009, 06:20 PM
DFW1911, did you not own a high capacity 9mm back during the ban, or did the ban really have nothing to do with what you were carrying? I only ask that, because I carry different guns for CCW, and the AWB had nothing to do with whether I packed a Walther P99 or one of my 1911's. My state had no restrictions on magazine capacity that were in effect at that time, only whether one wanted to carry a $100 pre-ban magazine in their gun.

wvshooter
August 5, 2009, 08:36 PM
9 mm back on top? I think it's always been on top, at least after semi autos started to replace the 38's special wheely guns as the most popular handgun. And why not. Some have derided it as the "euro pellet", but it may just be the best handgun round that will ever be. I own everything from .380 to 40 S&W and the 9mm is the easiest to reload and the easiest to shoot of the bunch.

DFW1911
August 8, 2009, 12:48 AM
SharpsDressedMan:

DFW1911, did you not own a high capacity 9mm back during the ban, or did the ban really have nothing to do with what you were carrying?

I did own several high cap 9mms, but I lived in a cooler locale than Texas. My favorite pistol is the 1911, so that's what I mainly carried, which was great since the summer temperatures weren't so hot like the are here.

So now in the summer I'm carrying the P250 or a G33 IWB since a t-shirt is frequently my concealment garment.

When winter rolls around and temps drop to a frigid 60 or so, I'll carry either a Wilson CQB or a SA Loaded model since I'll have concealment clothing options, such as goose down or heavy wool coats :).

Take care,
DFW1911

Patrice
August 8, 2009, 10:26 AM
Well, I'm not going to flame anyone, but I do agree with Dom1104's post...times may change; 3-4 rounds per incident...may not be adequate for coming times. In the aftermath of Katrina friends sent out streaming videos of firefights, and many muzzle flashes and reports we're seen & heard. National guard soldiers trying to get themselves back to their unit stopped by once to borrow some shotgun & pistol rounds...the soldiers were almost out of ammunition, and they said they had been exchanging a lot of fire. I believe that capacity, varieties of caliber, and reserves of ammunition may be very important. Also, some of the bad guys have badges...and that was established by news videos.--Patrice:uhoh:

SharpsDressedMan
August 8, 2009, 03:02 PM
More important than high capacity is high "hit probability". Practice, practice, PRACTICE!

colorado_handgunner
August 9, 2009, 01:33 AM
not every newbie jumps on the .40/.45 bandwagon at first

Unless they don't really know the difference when they start shooting, like me when I first started. I started with a .40, and now own 2 .40's, a .22 (plinking) and a .380 (which I shoot terribly). The .40 is just fun to shoot, and I like the kick! :D

SharpsDressedMan
August 9, 2009, 02:09 PM
Quote:
not every newbie jumps on the .40/.45 bandwagon at first

Unless they don't really know the difference when they start shooting, like me when I first started. I started with a .40, and now own 2 .40's, a .22 (plinking) and a .380 (which I shoot terribly). The .40 is just fun to shoot, and I like the kick!
HENCE, saying "not every....". You are one of the others. My wife started with a .45, now she shoots everything well. Slow, but well.

chauncey
August 9, 2009, 05:06 PM
to me, a .40S&W pistol (for carry) with a 9mm BarSto barrel (for practice) is the best of both worlds.

if I could get a barrel to convert 45 to 9mm, I'd go that route, instead. doesn't exist though (except maybe a Sig 250, but I'm not buying that much stuff)

eJack
August 14, 2009, 04:27 PM
hi cap is for law enforcement and mall ninjas


Absolutely. Law enforcement needs hi cap because they have back up. Thank you Mrs Brady. :barf: Your logic never fails us.

Back to the OP, I can see the attraction of the Hi-Cap 9mm over the (at least marginally if not much) more effective but lower capacity 45. Living in CA, I get 10 9mm or 10 45. I can shoot 45 faster more accurately than 9mm. My preference should be obvious, but if I didn't have to worry about capacity limits, I would at least own a 9mm with a bottomless magazine and perhaps my preference would change. For now I compensate with spare mags and hope I never need >10 at once.

DFW1911
August 16, 2009, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by cyclopsshooter View Post
hi cap is for law enforcement and mall ninjas
Absolutely. Law enforcement needs hi cap because they have back up. Thank you Mrs Brady. Your logic never fails us.


Right!

As a CHL there has been 1 time, no more, no less, wherein I wished I had more capacity than the 1911 I was carrying.

I was in an empty liquor store trying to find a decent single malt when we were descended upon by a pack of guys who just reeked of trouble. There's another thread right now about "gut feelings." I say trust them - let instincts do their job.

I picked up on them immediately, as did the store keep. He and I made eye contact because we both felt something was about to go down. I positioned myself toward the rear exit in case I needed to leave in a big d*** hurry.

It seems one of the tell-tale signs of robbing a liquor store it to mill about, shopping for nothing but looking at everything, just waiting for the right time. These guys did precisely that, for about 3 very uncomfortable minutes.

Fortunately the place became very busy, just suddenly, causing the potential bad guys to leave (they bought nothing)...and they had a running car (with driver) who had backed into the spot ready for a sudden departure.

There were 5 guys in that pack. I had 8 rounds in the pistol and 2 magazines on my hip. My positioning was very good, I had an element of concealment and reasonably decent cover. As importantly I had a clear field of vision and could see all of them. The bad news was I would have to fire toward the parking lot, so I could not afford to miss, if you ever can. I wouldn't be laying down suppressing fire if it came to that. You know what I mean.

After those dudes left I talked with the owner. His feelings were that he was "in the process of being robbed" (his words) but my presence and the sudden influx of people discouraged the bad guys. It's kind of interesting, but he said he knows when it's going to happen since he's been robbed so many times. This lead to an entire conversation, the details of which I'll spare you.

That is the only time I wanted more bullets than I had. Don't get me wrong, I had plenty and didn't plan on missing, but who does? My reload sequence is pretty fast, but that's something I would have wanted to delay a bit. In hindsight I would have felt more "comfortable" with a hi-cap 9mm, which would have allowed at least 3 rounds per bad guy from a single magazine. With the 1911 I'd have to reload (possibly) after 8; I'd rather reload after 17.

Oh, this happened so fast that 911 was the last thing on my mind. The need for self preservation dominated my thoughts and relying on a phone just wasn't in the cards for me. The owner did call the police, but I don't know what come of it.

The point of this diatribe is simple: I wanted more firepower. This made me rethink my entire self-defense continuum. I previously based my SD scenarios with 1-1 in mind, not 1 vs. 5. I've changed that based on this incident. No, I don't feel underpowered with a 9mm vs a .45.

Take care,
DFW1911

THE DARK KNIGHT
August 16, 2009, 03:06 PM
And if 4 guys come at me with baseball bats, I would like to have more than 3 rounds in fact, 3 each sounds good.

Why are hypothetical criminals always less armed than the CCWer in these fantasies? Not sure about where you live, but criminals have guns here too.

eJack
August 16, 2009, 05:20 PM
Why are hypothetical criminals always less armed than the CCWer in these fantasies? Not sure about where you live, but criminals have guns here too.

While I do agree that most criminal encounter fantasies share as much reality as girl encounter fantasies, any situation involving four attackers with guns that was even remotely survivable would probably require a high round count.

Ragnar Danneskjold
August 16, 2009, 06:15 PM
National guard soldiers trying to get themselves back to their unit stopped by once to borrow some shotgun & pistol rounds...the soldiers were almost out of ammunition, and they said they had been exchanging a lot of fire.

Not saying I don't believe you, but I'd like to see that story. It seems rather outlandish. And did they not have their M4s?

Glockman17366
August 16, 2009, 07:11 PM
There are no such things as "High Capacity" magazines. There are only standard capacity magazines and those reduced in capacity by an inept, corrupt bunch of morons who think they are important.

rightside
August 16, 2009, 11:14 PM
ou know, for a nation of people the very nearly went into economic meltdown last winter, I would think we would think more to the future being more than just random crime perpetrated by single attackers.

I fully expect group / gang activity to be on the increase if unemployement stays high.

And if 4 guys come at me with baseball bats, I would like to have more than 3 rounds in fact, 3 each sounds good.

People seem to think, how it is now is how it always will be.

Agreed! Reading about 3,4 or 5 guys doing home invasions some using body armor. Looking real hard at the Sig Blackwater w/20 round mags. My 1911s and I have a few, will always be my favorites (guaranteed).

lvcat2004
August 16, 2009, 11:30 PM
What ya mean "back" on top??

It's always been on top and always will be....except for those guys with short appendages that feel the need to compensate with firearms what they are lacking physically....:rolleyes:

ChCx2744
August 17, 2009, 08:28 PM
PT1911 said:
get a sword, that is all you need.

Hell, lets just use a rock tied to a rope and call it a day.

eJack
August 18, 2009, 12:18 PM
What ya mean "back" on top??

It's always been on top and always will be....except for those guys with short appendages that feel the need to compensate with firearms what they are lacking physically....:rolleyes:

Really, is there a reason to talk about appendages over what caliber people choose?

DFW1911
August 19, 2009, 10:24 PM
ou know, for a nation of people the very nearly went into economic meltdown last winter, I would think we would think more to the future being more than just random crime perpetrated by single attackers.

I fully expect group / gang activity to be on the increase if unemployement stays high.

And if 4 guys come at me with baseball bats, I would like to have more than 3 rounds in fact, 3 each sounds good.

People seem to think, how it is now is how it always will be.

Agreed! Reading about 3,4 or 5 guys doing home invasions some using body armor. Looking real hard at the Sig Blackwater w/20 round mags. My 1911s and I have a few, will always be my favorites (guaranteed).

The possibility of an economic meltdown was (is?) so palpable that we bought ammunition and firearms in droves. For me, I made the decision to have a 9mm as my primary pistol due to capacity and ammunition availability.

My rifle would still be primary weapon, if it was available. It's kind of tough to CCW a rifle at work!

PAPACHUCK
August 20, 2009, 07:42 AM
Most of my carry guns are 9mm's, but I do like having 14rds of .45 on me.

rogertc1
August 20, 2009, 09:23 AM
I have been collecting for over 3 decades and never went with the .40 cause I didn't want to have another round to hord. I have lots of different 9MM. Besides it is the NATO round.

DHart
August 22, 2009, 04:01 AM
9mm caught on... big time... and for good reason.

The 1911 is an awesome weapon, for sure, but honestly, one can never feel that it isn't better to have more rounds before a reload than less. I've got more 1911's in .45 acp than any other handgun type, but if I found myself in the deep stew with two or three adversaries, I would prefer 18 rounds of 9mm 124 gr. +P Gold Dots on tap before a reload than 9 rounds of .45 acp... much as I love .45 acp.

It has been clearly demonstrated in training that moving off the X while defending oneself is the name of the game for survival!

For the typical self-defense civilian facing potentially two or more savvy adversaries, with an objective of firing defensively WHILE MOVING OFF THE X... so as to avoid being shot, there is a huge potential for many missed shots... and a huge potential for needing a higher number of rounds on tap before a reload.

Standing like a stone while attempting to deliver rounds to your target may land some good hits, but at the same time, you are much more likely to be hit and taken down. Much better to be moving off the "X" while attempting to deliver defeating rounds to your adversaries.

I dearly love my 1911's, but a G19 loaded with a G17 mag, having 18 rounds of 124 gr. +P Gold Dots on tap, is arguably a better position to have than 1/2 that many rounds before a reload.

Gabe Suarez, a defense guru of great repute, has it right when he advocates for 9mm weapons of high capacity... the 1911 is an incredible gun, but let's face it folks, in today's world... moving while shooting is the name of the game (to avoid being hit!!!!), not standing like a plaster bust at the range, carefully squeezing off target-accurate shots, just waiting to be hit and taken down. Moving-while-shooting likely requires more ammo on tap before a reload -there will be more misses - and you will be less likely to be hit! Assuming respectable ballistic capability (which the 124 gr. +P 9mm Gold Dot definitely has), having significantly more rounds on tap before a reload is far preferrable to fewer rounds... especially if you have two or more adversaries!

Some will quote statistics stating the "most" gunfights (in statistical record) are over in three or four rounds... well, so much for statistics... are you truly comfortable relying on just 9 rounds if facing two or three armed adversaries... while you are firing when moving to protect yourself.... when you could just as well have 18 potent rounds on tap?

I rely on my 1911's when at home where I can easily retreat to more weapons, but when out and about with not other recourse than my carry gun, I lean more toward a high cap 9mm Glock than one of my revered single-stack 1911s. Not that I don't carry my 1911's at times... just that if I felt the potential for trouble was high... I'd lean toward the G19 with 16 rounds on tap with the standard mag and another 17-rounds in a G17 mag reload. 124 gr. +P Gold Dots being the round of choice in the G19.

DFW1911
August 22, 2009, 04:18 PM
Nicely summarized, DHart: I agree with you.

I believe the AWB was the single biggest factor in creating overwhelming 1911 interest. If it wasn't, I'm sure it had something to do with it.

Notice how since the d*** thing has expired the 9mm is making more than a modest comeback.

Even Wilson Combat, long known for their 1911s, have introduced 9mms of (I believe) their own design. Both of the ones I've seen are, in fact, quite ugly :)!

Brian Williams
August 22, 2009, 04:52 PM
First rule of the gun fight -- Have a gun!
Second rule -- you can't miss fast enough to win.
Actually the first rule is don't be there.

I have recently be looking hard at my Glock 19 and how it is actually smaller than my favorite carry gun a S&W 13. I have recently purchased a few more 15 round mags and have just bought from Natchez Shooting supply 2 G17 mags and 2 G19 mags. Now to find a couple of +2 base plates for the G-17 mags.

I really do like a 9mm version of a S&W 60-4. It carries well and is fairly small and the moonclips make for a very fast reload.

tdyoung58
August 22, 2009, 05:23 PM
My main carry a Ruger P345 and my backup a Taurus PT745 are both .45 acp

Have plenty of ammo and can make more if I want

testosterone
August 22, 2009, 09:30 PM
First rule of the gun fight -- Have a gun!
Second rule -- you can't miss fast enough to win.


--wally.

First rule of the gun fight -- Have a gun!
Second rule -- you can't miss fast enough to win.

Actually, rule 2 is Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice.

Rule 3 is your rule 2, Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.

I'm with you though!

Have a gun, any gun.

-v-
August 22, 2009, 11:03 PM
I prefer my 9mm to the .45. As far as SD goes, the 9mm has a proven history stretching back over one hundred and seven years. Yup, the 9mm been around for over a century!

Come a defensive shooting, good HP ammo in 9mm will do everything that good HP ammo in .40 and .45 will do. Only difference is I have 18-20 rounds of 9mm versus 8-9 rounds of .45. I like knowing that I do not need to re-load in a close range fight. Plus as testosterone pointed out: Anything worth shooting once, is worth shooting two, five, or eighteen times.

In the end, lets face it, the 9mm, .40 and .45 are about equally effective at stopping/killing people: they all suck!. More tries to stop result in more chance of stopping.

okespe04
August 23, 2009, 12:44 AM
Its a hard choice. Sometimes my G21 sits on my night stand at night and sometimes my g19. Either would do the job just fine.

If you enjoyed reading about "9mm..."back" on top?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!